Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 24: Aimee Sadler

introduced us and you've been so generous with helping us with some of these problem children that we have but and we're very grateful yeah so so would you say was almost right about the time that you guys opened up the facility then it was within the first year I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure yeah because we had didn't we have most of yappy has remember you both came and we had most of the Ontario dogs yeah so it was very early on yeah that was the Ontario dogs I remember now oh we did some we did a workshop and yeah that's kind of how it started then then we had a few of your people from the team came to and and went through the school yeah but that's what it was exactly and then and then you got me hooked with all the interesting cases that you have that is just like you can you just can leave it alone it's like you know and by the way you know also Jay Jack remember he had come down to work with us and there was his favorite dog that we had from the Ontario crew Jack he called you about Jack originally I don't think you you may have met Jack at one point but you two were kabashing about him over the phone and um and speaking of shelter dogs I just recently saw your video about Tina and what a lovely thing to see a dog just doing absolutely nothing and being content so thank you for uh working with her whatever Dina I don't know what I'm gonna do with her um she she is completely in love with me and I think it's mutual so I don't know we'll see um she's uh it happens that's what happens when you work with these dogs that need so much help is that they but that's actually an interesting point for um and you and I have spoken about it a couple times when you've come down with regard to our program that we we are working really hard to progress the dogs without relying upon our relationship right because they're not going to be staying with us we have to pass them off and that is that's really the biggest thing I learned when I started training dogs in shelters it's like why is the stuff that I you know normally was doing as a professional trainer that was so working so well why is it falling apart when I try to teach the same things in this context so but that was one of them figuring out that we're building a relationship all the time but we're trying not to rely upon the relationship to be the reason the dog is Progressive yeah yeah and and and the attachment the attachment is on a different level with us with a dog that has problems right because all of a sudden your the only person so to speak that the dog accepts and and now you're so special and now you understand the dog and then there is that it's a difficult situation

it happens so often and especially for I'm sure for the trainers not the new trainers that come to your place I'm sure that there is a moments when it's very hard on them oh yeah definitely you know when we when the Canine Center opened I was hoping that we'd be able to have a 50 positive outcome I mean we're still holding we're down to 83 but I just never anticipated that because these are the dogs that are all euthanasia candidates and like you said pretty much within the Sheltering world the worst of the worst so yeah the team gets really bonded with them you know they go into the dorm rooms with them but it's interesting one of the pieces of advice that you had given me with one of the cases you were helping us with was let the dog really bond to one person and uh JJ gave us that advice too and I've always thought about that and the team begs for me to have project dogs and I've held really firm not that I don't you know I follow most of your advice but on that one I just think the bond that then the the emotional damage that might be done to the dog if they're so bonded to one of us and then it's no different than when we get so mad and Sheltering when when owners surrender their dogs and I think that we're not understanding that if we bond with them like that and then we turn them you know give them up and give them to someone else the dog's experience is the same you know they're losing that primary Bond so um we're we obviously are building strong relationships with these dogs and sometimes you can't help it the dogs just really gravitate to some of the individual handlers there's a real problem that I'm having as I get older is that dogs are definitely they're quick to hyper bond with me and um and they want to be very protective of me is what I've what I've learned lately which has changed a little bit and it's more as I've gotten older and so it's it's really trying to not set the dogs up for failure and setting up them up for Success so that they we're trying to teach them this is our little catchphrase essential skills for a life fulfilled we talk about wanting to be like the best Camp counselors you know they get to come and have a great time with us learn these new skills but then they go home to their family and then they fall in love someplace else of course they fall in love with us and we fall in love with them too but we're trying so hard to not create that bond that will that could be traumatic for them again they lose us how is that now like um how busy are you guys there oh we're always we're always full we have a long wait list um I mean it's never it's always going

to be full there's always going to be a need and I think in Sheltering what's what's and I'm not sure how much you know about the Sheltering World on the whole but right now we're you know post pandemic I have to say that I've been proven wrong because I expected that there were going to be a bunch of returns of dogs that were with people going back to work and dogs that would have separation anxiety and that um we're just not coping with that such a dramatic change in their lives that that we have not seen that to be the case and there hasn't been an influx of intake but what has happened and the shelters across the country are in crisis they're over full they're overflowing and many shelters that had been passed euthanizing for space some of them are reverting back to they're overcrowded and they're having they're needing to euthanize animals that they don't have a medical or behavioral reason and they're just utilizing for space because they're the outcomes are stagnant no nobody's coming to get dogs from the shelters right now I think that the only thing that were I heard this one I don't know if this is true yet I don't has been really fleshed out but that there's a possibility that during the pandemic when everybody was learning how to order everything in their life online that also included pets right because what we know the last time I heard I'm not the best with retaining exact numbers but the gist of it was we should be able to get all these dogs in need even some of these problem children right into homes because I think there's something like 17 million homes a year will acquire a pet 17 million and we're euthanizing less than I think we might even like less than three million pets out of our shelters a year so why why why are we having the problem but um it's where people are acquiring the pets so I think people started ordering even not you know well for for people that are looking for a purebred dog specifically yeah even though there's purebred dogs in the shelters you know I you could speak to that point much better than I ever could but I'm talking about people even buying just mutts and I think they were doing it online and from backyard breeders or whatever whatever it was but and people are breeding all kinds of mixy dogs and so it's kind of it's a conundrum can't quite figure it out I haven't checked that on your website but do you do you have a do you have all the dogs listed no because interestingly Ivan we're not a um an adoption center we are a board and train facility right we don't own the dogs when they come so it's a unique the reason that I never set it up to be

that we were actually placing our own dogs directly was because I knew that my save rate or my live release rate over time was going to get worse and worse and worse because the dogs would get more difficult and I couldn't be measured if I'm a non-profit and I'm looking for funding I can't be measured if they're going to compare me to other shelters that way so we are we so the dogs are owned by the originating shelter while they're in our care and in training when they're ready to be placed they move on to a placement partner few dogs go back to the originating shelter but as we're doing this fewer and fewer of the originating shelters will be able to maintain the dogs in their normal adoption centers with the level of training that we've put on them we don't think that the dog will thrive in their care so most of them go on to our placement Partners like Jacksonville Humane Society is one of our strongest Peggy Adams is another Florida shelter that is a placement partner for us and so they then will take a dog that's finished in training and typically they'll trade right so they'll take two absolute bar dogs to send one new problem dog right um and so we'll trade and uh and then they do the placements for us so that the originating shelter just transfers ownership to the placement partner shelter you you have a place in in California also right well we are working we are contracted right now we've had received some grants to be embedded at the Los Angeles Animal Services so we're working with them and Cody you've met Cody my oldest son he is he's now because we have a lot of activity in Los Angeles he's now the director of Los Angeles programming he wanted to also relocate and so he's managing two other team members that are there he bounces around because he's not designated his positions not only designated for La animal services so he's also been over to the Los Angeles the county the department of animal care and control um and their care so hopefully we're going to be embedded in all of those shelters to really Drive our model forward and to demonstrate there's been other models that have been paying attention I've been paying attention yeah so I'm hoping if we if we that we are definitely embedding at Los Angeles Animal Services that's been approved in their budget so that'll move forward starting in January so we'll end up with dpfl teams on the ground at all six of their care centers but there's another seven Care Centers over at the county system and so you're talking I think it's 130 000 dogs a year yeah it will be hopefully working with and then obviously be able to demonstrate with uh stats I'm a big I am

not an academic at all um but I like to have at least measurement to the work that we do because you know I don't want things to just be my opinion I'm a very opinionated person but you know we've got to be able to back up what we're doing especially with all the you know crankiness that goes on about what we do yes so so since we are on that topic um what what is the how is dogs play for Life different than anything else out there so the core enrichment programming separate from the Canine Center um you know we have teams that are traveling around going into shelters and teaching them how to implement play groups as like a foundation for what we call is the every dog every day program and that means that not every dog has to go to play groups every day but we want to ensure that you know dogs in in U.S shelters are getting quality time out of their enclosures every day and when you're talking about like I just said at those two systems at the South L.A shelter where our team is mainly housed they've got they're supposed to have it about just under 300 dogs they're up to 440 dogs at that one facility so how do you get 440 dogs and some of them can't you know they're being medically treated or they legally you know they're a court case dog they can't come right I think of all those other dogs that can right how do you attend to them so if you're if you're you're talking about the what's unique about us is that we can we can serve high volumes of dogs because we focus on our playgroup model which really allows the dogs to get out and play we're not micromanaging them we assume that dogs want to be social with each other and that's actually the that's how we go into it we're just we're just here as Hall monitors for you guys let's just let you get together now when we show up at high volume shelters where the dogs haven't been enriched obviously things are a tense when we get started and so the it can be you know challenging to get going but then once you get in the rhythm of getting the dogs out letting them play it is amazing how it Smooths out and how much easier it becomes and it's interesting that people say we don't have the staff to do play groups when you understand that is even more the reason that you should be doing play groups because it's the more most efficient way for you to attend to those dogs and let them get their Yaya's out and to be enriched absolutely right right very true very true like uh that there is always something we'll we'll talk about the the latest canines Symposium but there is always presentations and always talking about shelter environment and always trying to

think and brainstorm how to improve almost always seems to be the conversation around enrichment but the enrichment like uh like what can we put in their kennel what toy or what you know but an actual interaction doctor dog or human to dog interaction very little has been always talked about in those presentation and symposiums and and conferences and I think that's one thing um that really got my attention um you know I mean obviously when I heard that you you you're taking all the dogs that nobody really everybody has given up on tried everything being Force free being whatever and and before the dog gets you to nice they contact Amy Amy what do you have room and I mean it takes the dog and that's pretty much how I I found out about you and I was like wow I need to I need to see this place and I need to see what you guys do um now the other big difference between you and and the majority of shelters is that you don't you're not shy to use form of a verse if you're not trying to use electric color if it's needed if you feel that it's gonna benefit I mean we always have custom benefit and ultimately there is no ideology that prevents you from helping your dogs that come because pretty much the ideology already gave up on those dogs you know I I have tremendous respect for all the training that you do a lot of people that you've had trainers around your but the sport that you all train for I didn't have any I didn't have any personal interest in that uh not even competitive obedience but I started learning a long time ago from as many very accomplished trainers as I possibly could learn from because I didn't want a dog that I didn't want a dog to fall through the cracks in my care so I just wanted to try to become sophisticated in my understanding training even though I wasn't ever going to go out to train to that level and that's where I was exposed to you know so many different styles and techniques of working with dogs and and dealing with problems I I'll never forget uh oh it was one of Bart's seminars long time ago and I brought my this was my heart dog right here at Cooley and I brought him because I wanted to learn again whatever whatever the latest and greatest was around remote collars because he was an amazing dog but I didn't have that I didn't have a recall under all circumstances and I had done all the Preparatory training but I knew if he flushed a deer at the wrong time that I could get myself the two of us into trouble and everything so I wanted to learn about remote collar and polishing and finishing some behaviors and I want to learn you know some refined work and so anyway all of that got started

because again I wanted to be to me I want the dogs to have I'm into like freedom and Independence and everything so I am not shy about whatever it's going to take to allow you more opportunity is what I'm always looking for and so we just never well I can share one really funny story with you I went up to I went up to see a Ted Turner seminar this is when I had first started in Sheltering not Ted Turner the TV Ted Turner but the Marine Mammal 10 Ted Turner and I came away from his uh seminar and seeing just incredible work there was a he was working with a I think a commissary dolphin and there was medical issues and they were having to all get in the pool and Corral and it's a very um kind of stressy species of dolphin and they were having to crawl on and they thought well the Dolphin's gonna have a heart attack with us trying to actually treat him and um he asked the veterinarians to give him something like two weeks and so in two weeks time he trained the dolphin to come to station open his mouth and be intubated you know uh what's the word intubated not with being coerced but voluntarily and taking the treat the treatments and everything and that was ultimately to save the dog was like so I watched something amazing like that and I thought I came back to my shelter I was at the Southampton Animal Shelter at that time and I I felt so ashamed that I had moved too far away from my roots because I had originally I've been a Marine Mammal I had been an apprentice for a Marine Mammal trainer in California oh really I was young yeah when I was 19. so I um I quit my office job and worked at Marie Callender's uh outside of Magic Mountain in California and apprenticed for the dolphin and sea lion show I just had a podcast with one of those trainers like like just my last podcast and we talked about uh volunteer like you know drawing book of blood and that was actually a sea lion that day uh uh pull a tooth out you know giving giving the shot um numbing the The Joe giving another shot and another shot and finally pulling that too just yeah just with that process so anyway that's interesting yeah so when I went to that seminar and I saw him I I felt like ashamed that I'd almost become lazy that I wasn't staying so pure to everything that I had learned about basically you know mental manipulation training I'm not without the physicality behind it right and um and so I it took me about three days of being back in the shelter and I thought well I know exactly why I've moved away from that because it does not pertain a work in this situation in this context and these animals and these adverse conditions and you know that my

my thing about and I don't want to sound like I'm going to be like against Force free I love everything that forestry trainers do or that positive only trainers do we do all of that too we consider ourselves pretty masterful and all right it's just for it to work this is what's so crazy to me Ford's work you have to control the environment and access to resources period you have to have control of that and ultimately we do that so that we can mentally manipulate another creature or living being to do things that we want them to do by controlling their environment and their access to resources why do we think that that's so Humane it's just a human construct right right so it's if you think about it it's pretty twisted right and then especially when we have all these conversations coming up around consent and all this kind of other stuff and I'm like wow human beings have this miraculous ability to not create a story in our heads that boy do we want to believe but I I do really so three days back in the shelter after Watching Ted Turner doing amazing training then I think you know I could there's nothing wrong with that it was amazing but I thought that if I try to apply that to my this shelter dog here right now today I am going to take it's going to take me so much more time and this environment is deteriorating this dog faster than I can help this dog and not only this dog I've got 30 others that I have to help so it was trying to put it together in my like can I be logical what can I do that is going to be at least least in least invasive minimally aversive right that was always intuitively what I would do um what can we do in the true Spirit of what that is supposed to be um I just always felt like no I've got I've got everything in the kitchen sink I'm going to use anything possible any tool any technique to support this animal to rewardable behavior so that they do not have to live here and they get to go home exactly that's the bottom line that is the bottom line and and to to add to what you're saying um any any of those Marine animal centers okay they may convince the sea lion to to leave his uh flipper to take blood but in the very next minute maybe they have to move him from one place to another and most likely they use some aversive to convince them and Cox him to get there because he doesn't want to all of a sudden but nobody talks about that part right no and I think that it's it's a caged animal we have to you know we're working with animals we've taken away all their freedom just as you said you you control the environment and everything that the animal wants or you can manipulate it in a very

um yeah intelligent way but but that's not a when that's not possible what is the solution and if there is a better solution then teach us right show us with the like I don't know like in the call of versus and negative reinforcement and you know like if if we don't have negative reinforcement in life all life will cease to exist basically I mean we all because you know um I mean I I should repeat it like we without negative reinforcement all life cease to exist period same thing if you if you put a leash on a dog soon or later somewhere you're using it as an aversive well you already blew it right you know it's so funny to me like not you already blew it but you can't attach a leash to a dog and influence their behavior in any way shape or form and consider yourself a force-free trainer right if it influences their behavior now if it doesn't you know then they never feel the end of the leash or whatever it just and it just seems so silly it seems so silly to me that we even concerned about that and you know when I'm doing presentations now I think I do one on a Thursday Thursday it's called for dog's sake will you please stop doing that and it's basically all the handling things that people do so terribly wrong it just sets the dogs up for failure and I do talk about that whole concept of consent and that um they didn't consent to the leash in the collar in the first place they don't consent to the medical treatment we put them through they don't consent to being in the shelter in the first place and we do all of that to them because we have the sense that it's um in their best interest ultimately right they make decisions we decide when we're feeding our our dogs right most of us and consent is such an abstract even even talking about that it's it's kind of weird because I can I can trick a dog to consent to to pretty much anything a dog can do that does not want to do it but they will eagerly consent because of manipulation so why are we I I don't know why are we going that path and it's different like the conversation I'm having with you is very different than the conversation I would have with some sport trainers because adults life is on the line here and if a force-free Advocates say we would rather euthanize the dog than help the dog or at least make an attempt to help the dog this is a uh to me that's very unethical that's way more unethical than anything any attempt to try to save dog's life it has been it's been shared with me that there are some academics that have said that specifically to that they would euthanize a dog before they would let dogs playing to life get their hands on them in the context of letting them

be in play groups training them whatever it might be and I you know I find that listen I have absolutely no problem at all like you know the joke about us the only thing two trainers are going to agree upon is what the third one's doing wrong right like so it I always it's always fine to me that people will oh and I thought I've got to say it on this remember when you first came does your obedience is [ __ ] oh my God and you said this I'm like I know I know but you have to from your perspective I know it is and we we're gonna work hard to get better and then now you always tell me to stop saying that but it actually was I thought it was so funny it's one of my favorite things to tell people that Ivan says our obedience to [ __ ] because it is in comparison to what what you do for sure but um the whole point is it's a very different come on this is a joke everybody like they what they do it's really really special but um the whole point of it is that I think that this is what really for us most the time we don't our main job is not to teach dogs to do things our priority is to get them to stop doing things that is really valuable to them to do yeah really valuable yeah I mean that really is what our program is about I play groups and everything enrichment and the training in the shelter that's really about how can we keep you mentally and physically satiated because here's the thing you know if we just physically satiate the dogs and let them you know run and get their yayas out but there isn't that mental stimulation that component that goes with it we're just conditioning them to need more and more they're just going to need more and more if we're just doing the physical conditioning right we have to provide some kind of mental stimulation when they're outside of the kennel to combat all the frustration and repetitiveness and you know barking barking dogs in the kennel it's like us having to live in a house with a fire alarm going off all the time right so we have to do something for them so the play groups and everything and allowing them to interact is basically have that intensive social interaction so that you have to conflict resolution skills you've got to put all that kind of stuff together you've got things to think about sometimes the dogs will be stressed in the in the initial process because but it's the kind of stress that will lead to adaptation that is going to strengthen them and create resiliency which is what our job is and then at the Canine Center we're talking about dogs that are coming to us because they've got stranger danger or whatever it's we teach them things to do so that we can

redirect them to rewardable behaviors of course but ultimately our job is to make them stop doing whatever it is that landed them with us in the first place and that's really what it comes down to so that's why I just it's just mind-boggling to me that and how do you and we have to stop them from doing it not just with us and you know most the time we never even meet the adopter dog leaves us goes into another facility to be handled by complete strangers that don't handle like we do and then we'll be adopted and they have to be successful successful through all of that yeah exactly this is a it is a very difficult situation and there is always the conversation around studies right and there is not one but I've been thinking lately about this there is no one study like we we should focus on on a study where we measure quality of life after that moment of discomfort like what happened where is that dog today you know like none of the research focuses on that part everybody's like oh you you tap the dog with the shock collar and he yelled therefore it's like okay how about really how about we measure quality of life after the moment of that discomfort what happened next why do we not pay attention but somehow hypothetically the the whole you know the first three days always that the love to talk about the the worst case scenario as it has happened over and over and over again and making assumption that the future is going to be like like a predicting the worst hurricane that's coming to Florida that will never come that's how that's what we are based on WE nobody on their side tries to acknowledge the fact and I'm gonna talk to you about him a little bit later because she's a very good example of that but you have plenty of those like I again I mean not plenty pretty much any dog that you have it's it's a difficult dog that clearly failed positive reinforcement approach and sometimes In fairness iron sometimes dogs are sent to us because the training that was installed was not force free or positive only it was the opposite we have a wrong training we have plenty of dogs that have come in and one of the core things that we have to resolve for them first is that a leash has been weaponized for them and they have not only are they wary of being handled but they a lot of them would turn and go after you if you tried to pick up a leash right right what does that indicate to you right right so that's the other thing that's another good case of of how how the the forestry ideology would think it's like well they will give those examples but these are the examples the again the worst case scenario and non-contingent

and all the dogs typically need is for some clarity for things to start to make sense so they can take up reader and fit in in the environment right well I just you know I love Dr Proto Popova I think she's done some really nice work and she when the canine science Symposium that I tried a couple weeks ago she um she brought something up in her talk I don't know if this was something that you were going to talk about because I know you attended it uh remotely right but the um when she's well they asked they did not have it I mean I I you know I attend everything that anything that's of Interest so I I listened to all the presentations but the like her presentation there was few interesting presentations she was one of them and they were in the afternoon and the webinar did not uh include us which was like very weird so yeah that was a eclipses a title it was something of interest and then of course you messaged me and you're like wow are you paying attention like no I'm out of it I have to say I really applaud her because and I thanked her at the end because she brought up to all of us um do you what would you she asked all of us in the audience would you prefer safety or Independence and she wanted us to all just think about that and I thought it was brilliant because basically what she was getting to is that we all have our you know we're looking at the world through our lens right so I am a person that would if I had if I choose I want independence right that's what's so primarily important to me so of course I've built programming that comes from that core foundational need that I have as a human being and I imagine that for people that need safety that that is what they are they need to thrive more than anything if that's the priority for them I understand why people will then develop programming and go in a direction that is going to ensure that and so I it made so much sense to me because I am not what I don't want to be I don't want to be at war with a force-free community I and I would be so we are so open and welcoming and uh welcome just that open and welcoming but what's so hard is that that's just not returned that respect or that and then when I think about that is it the people that feel that are really disturbed by our programming because we're not force free I realize that they truly truly believe that what we're doing is not in the best interest of animals and that means so much to them so I feel like all right I get why you want to um question what we're doing and everything like we all want the same thing but I truly in my Heart of heart of hearts believe when one of the presentations was talking about

really really trying to um prioritize the value of a human interaction right and I and I I might be oversensitive about it it was I don't know if her intention was to say less play groups and more people time I don't know if it was that exactly but what I would say yes of course people time is so so so important but if if there's going to be like an academic push in Sheltering to give the dogs more one-on-one time with people that's more important sure I wouldn't even argue that point but tell me who's going to get there to give it to them right so and if you don't have enough people to provide them with that adequate out of kennel one-on-one human time then you have to give them something else and I would 100 stand down and say if you have enough people to get these dogs out and have one-on-one time and then you don't need to do play groups here I still think actually to be honest with you I still think letting dogs be dogs and playing together is something that is so important to so many of them I still think you're denying them an opportunity right but I would be willing to let it go I wouldn't fight for players if if they were being attended to and there's been shelters that I'm like no you don't there's another uh play group program we're not the only one but we have a polar opposite approach and there's been times where we've had shelters that have called us for a training and when we've heard their kind of statistics and where they are that they're much more risk-averse whatever we'll refer them to that other group we just know that the other the other training would never be able to assist the shelters that we assist because we can help volumes of dogs because of the way our program is designed yeah and it's not um it's really not that complicated to be able to to be able to establish certain rules in the group of dogs just like you establish certain rules in a group of people we're really only the only there we talk about establishing steering and brakes and for if you know what time ago he's one of the first people that I was learning from and he talks about this analogy of treeing dogs like driving a car that you need steering brakes and gas and it's the combination it all changes depending upon where you want to go the kind of carve blah blah so I've always I've always loved that analogy and I give him credit for it all the time I'm always to give credit where credit is due person so he um so when we talk about establishing steering and Brakes in the play groups that's because the only thing that we feel that our rule we are not there to possibly the the activity letting the dogs be dogs and us getting

out of their way is the positive reinforcement that is the enrichment our job is only just to be the hall monitor and to say you need to slow down with that you need to go to something else or you need to stop that and if the dogs can tell each other that that's ideal right you know if you don't have to interact or engage with the dogs in the play group and they just manage all of it themselves I mean those are the best players yeah the best yeah I always keep saying the dogs dogs interact through use of aversives they use negative reinforcement and Punishment with each other all day long and they love it and they and they understand how to do it because that's their language they cannot they cannot say well if you if you bite me too hard I'm not gonna play or I'm not gonna give you whatever like this is a human Concepts this is abstract for a dog yeah so it's like I'm gonna try to bite you and the other ones I'm gonna try to not let you and here the game begins and and it's a supervisor you're responsible to set some limits and consequences just as uh you know there is a hockey game and they get into their little fight and somebody goes on the bench for two minutes that's a that's just normal but it's not normal in in in The Narrative of the forestry that's not normal and they're going out of their way including the cherry picking of all scientific research like they literally will pick two sentences and not say the third one because it is to them controversial or it gives ammunition it gives a reason why a person would make sense well that doesn't sound very scientific but not no academic no it doesn't and that's a I mean I you know like when I listened to going back to that canine Symposium that just happened I mean it was what like a few weeks ago right and I was so ready to listen to uh Erica ferbacher let's talk about prong and shock collars the review of what we know something right and and throughout the whole presentation I I wish I actually emailed her and I have not received response yet and hopefully maybe she hasn't checked emails but that's the disconnect we have with them like we I believe that we want to have a discussion and talk and I don't think they want that I think they feel very comfortable of going to a symposium making a presentation giving their sight and never have the anybody challenge that well I have to tell you when I when I was there and I I had listened to um I think you shared a link with me and I'd listened to her do an interview prior to but you know and it's it's she is very very passionate and she loves animals and she's doing great work when she's helping dogs in shelters and

I am grateful and thankful that she's to anybody that's out there doing anybody that's out there that participating for in my world trying to make shelter dogs lives better I'm all for it I think what was what I was disappointed about offended about frankly is that there were claims that any of us that are that are balanced or whatever that we don't want the exposure and so we won't allow for research and that and I kept my composure but the only thing that bothers me about that is it's so very not true I have invited anybody to come study us because one of the excuses for not having more relevant and new research is that the the it won't make it past an Ethics Committee but here's the thing I have a training facility with 18 kennels on one side 18 kennels on the other side I'd be happy to say we have this many people and we will work the dogs on this side you can have the same number of people and work the dogs on this side you've got one month go or just come watch what we're doing and come code the [ __ ] out of everything that we're doing just you I've invited so much opportunities for research but nobody will come true we're doing it anyway it's not like you're asking us to do something to dogs this is what we're doing with the dogs I I I've thought about this and you know I did a little research earlier in the year and I think we're gonna do another one project and uh it's going very it's very interesting because it's truly a collaboration and it's not a it's not about competition I I don't like that format that you just mentioned like okay you come you take this side of the kennel and we do this side and we see who's more successful I don't think we need to do that I think we need to find what works sometimes when something else doesn't work and then we need to decide is it ethical is it worth it to dive deeper into understanding and maybe redefining making it even better or should we not and and again back to uh Erica's presentation which was the main reason I emailed her is because she I don't know probably somewhere towards the end she mentioned that she doesn't have access to trainers like me or you and that she would be very interested to see and and and take his story from the beginning to the training process and after and that's kind of what I wanted to offer because I think there is some something to to be done there hopefully um hopefully it happens um because again like if like I give you the thin story she was a she she was a straight they caught her a stray dog maybe they're 10 months old running crazy in Miami which I have no idea she must have just got loose because she would have been killed by a

car in the next few minutes but luckily somebody got her they put her already on medication there they were gonna use a nice car and I saw I saw a video I'm like I will take the dog and I was very very sincerely wanting to see what an animal veterinary behaviorist will do what would the approach be I I want to learn it and I contacted few of the like in the board of their you know the people that write the mission statements and all the protocols and they refused because they look at my website and because I use the verses and I'm a balanced trainer so we have a I I don't know how they put it but some conflict of interest and it would not it would basically not work because of that so I try to assure them I'm like listen I the reason I'm contacting you I know who I am and I was not gonna hide who I am I actually told you up front but I'm telling you that I can do step by step anything you want me to do I want to help the dog and you believe that you can so they refused but they gave me another person to contact locally so we got in touch we you know I mean we went to evaluation it was they did basically said that was a top five in a whole career of the veterinarian behaviorist top five of any cases and she's been in this business since the 80s um so extremely severe case I mean you've seen the videos leaking floors and chasing and biting things for hours without like you have to stop her I mean like like an obsessive compulsive disorder in in the the worst possible way you know and and there is something to like people when some people understand it but some people don't know what really means how how crazy this is and it's like a the behavior patterns they take over the environment as opposed to the environment driving the the thoughts and the behavior partners it's like that the opposite so the the OCD includes the the behaviors the obsessions and the compulsion is basically uh the actions that the dog does right so and and they they're paired and they work together so the compulsion relieves like kind of satisfies the obsession which it's very sick situation so like you know you cannot do that and uh so of course we we put her on SSRI um I mean on Project so immediately we put Corona higher those because she is a tough case but it was very difficult for her and this this medicines they have a insanely problematic side effects and to some people and some dogs they're very Amplified and so she was one of them granted she was on a higher doses so

but then I know that anybody that has dealt or experience anything with psychotropic mess is you know there is a process of trying to find the right dosage right and and I I was not able from now you know my channel to the training building how how much of a distance that you think is I'm so bad in feet but 100 feet to 200 feet it's not that long right but so if I was to bring her out from the kennel to the building she would lose her mind and by the time she's in the building she is just like wasted so then I asked them well so I cannot use a verse if I cannot put her on from color I cannot put her on you know I have to somehow bring her in one the suggestion was well we offer a toy she does not want a toy she was a dog that would never think about there was just not in the repair store yeah so that was not a solution then the other one was well let's teach her Karen overalls uh take a deep breath relaxation protocols I'm like okay we have to explain to me what that what what are we doing and I watched a little video of a dog possibly taking deep breaths and he and I had to ask boy I don't understand what are we looking for and what am I supposed to do how do I teach her and what how do I reward her so I dived a little deeper into Karen overalls protocols I mean I was 100 invested to do the prescription they gave me 100 percent and um yeah there was nothing nothing of use it's basically what I was supposed to do is I shower food or I capture a deep breath behavior and I give a treat she doesn't want to treat them right no no and even if she takes a treat she takes a treat with a with a anger like she's just because he thinks like she cannot avoid it anymore and she has to take it and it's like I'm taking this and just [ __ ] you you know like that's that was the attitude positive reinforcement then right so I you know like I think it was about three weeks and it was not not going well right like I was I was at the point where I cannot watch her anymore of of of what what she's doing so you were in the exact same position right that when those trainers are looking saying we we refuse we won't even engage with you because we won't even be able to stomach watching you even attending with the dog right yeah I don't think I don't think I think it's so hard for people to understand that for people like you or people like me watching the dogs not improve when you know that it is relatively simple to help them improve and to change their state of mind that is in such a bad place

it's it's as painful for me to watch dogs linger like that any longer than they need to fearful dogs incred that's another one for me is when super super fearful dogs and nobody wants to put any pressure on them whatsoever to me it's so cruel to leave them like that right the longer you leave them like that like who wants to live in a state of fear all the time so I apologize for interrupting you but it just it was very poignant to me that you were saying there it's painful to watch something that's not working and then we we you know like I mean now in the last few years we we like science actually I mean there is new research there is book I think um the rise and fall of Psych psychopharmatology like I I've read that book few times Edward shorter I I will post it for anybody that is interested and and and like so so interesting and basically you like I I am in the business of training dogs I I interact with dogs that come to me that have been prescribed psychotropic medications and in in most cases I think they're so easily prescribed so of course not prescribed it's going nuts in the shoulders and when we're talking about evidence based that the words that they love to do I think psychotropic medication is like absolutely without any evidence-based reasons or any approved indications like there is there is nothing uh nothing to say in forget about those because with those there is even no studies there is no we don't know what what the outcomes are without uh besides the point of well the animal veterinary Behavior says that the dog has improved now but studies with humans and those studies were kind of put aside for so long but studies comparing anti-depressants to placebo they found that uh it's very extremely difficult to distinguish between the two this is not one study there's like I I can post those and and we're talking with humans because you can actually they really did some some research so and and one of them was like what did they do like over a period of eight weeks or so the ones were meant the others one or placebo and they basically um fall uh found like a very very small difference one favoring the the medication but but absolutely not clinically significant to the point where every dog that we see that is just a a little out of control a little too happy a little too shy a little too aggressive like pretty much every dog that they get a consultation walks away with a prescription and dogs are being medicated again I'm sorry to get on my rant dogs are being medicated in shelters before probably because they don't get out of their kennels every day so to me that just is crazy because you

they should get out of their kennels every day before you start doing something like that we all the dogs that come to us um that are on medications we um wean them off always at first because we feel like we need the Baseline without the medication we do it we do it properly and we have a event that supervises us right with that we wean them off at a couple of dogs we've decided okay we can see that this dog is despite the fact that we have adequately satiated them they're having trouble processing and so when we then see for ourselves okay this dog is having trouble processing You know despite everything then we might go back to the medications find the right dosage while we're doing the behavior modification plan but we've never sent a dog out on medication so the whole point is but it it's yeah where I'm definitely Disturbed that with how much um medication is being used for dogs and shelters definitely yes because of that whole like yeah no I mean we have the same frustration and and that whole notion of chemical imbalance in the brain I mean that was sold for so long from from you know big Pharma and and there is really no evidence right now to support that theory and most of the researchers most of the researcher at this point no longer believe this to be true now even if it is let's say let's say they work if you are if your heart is in the right place wouldn't you be at least curious to see how what what did I do to have Tina being able to play not one time since our first month show any OCD behavior in leaking floors walls attacking fans Shadows flies killing cars and like having a miserable life to where she comes out she plays she does obedience she acts like a any dog she asked she behaves better than some of my Malinois I can put her in the house I can work on my computer I have videos like like an amazing um amazing change that it's actually documented like I have filmed every single session since the day she came to to the moment where I felt that we we have crossed the the difficult point that would be interesting at least to be presented somewhere to those um animal veterinary behaviors because if if we can do behavior modification and yes use some form of aversive but you don't even know like you should be at least interested how much aversive it was used because aversive as we said dogs play they use a verses like there is levels and there is ethical and knowledgeable there is contingent and non-continent there is there is so much to be talked about there it doesn't fit the narrative that's what it comes down to it does not fit the narrative so what is the I'm curious I'd like to know what was the

what what did you do for Tina what changed it for her so the the one of the very first things was that um and it took me a very long time to to redirect the obsessive compulsion to still be obsessive compulsive but towards something more acceptable and that was a toy and to do that gosh I I mean I probably spent a month to to try to convince her to play and you know place my specialty like this is what the whole training without conflict is about but I knew that even if I cannot convince her to to to play as a normal dog I knew that at least I should be able to redirect the OCD from licking the walls and killing cars to have that same frustration the same compulsion but towards something that I choose so that was uh that was the first step um as I said I have a I mean it's step by step and I'm not sure what we want to do with this like um I was in the beginning posting them every single session to to my certified trainers because you know um but then it became very tasking on me because I mean I was spending let's say two hours every day on Tina and and then imagine uploading to our video and saving that and then putting it up for a discussion and I mean it became really tasking and there is a lot of other projects so um I don't know we we have everything and one day we probably gonna have a a big presentation or make a documentary or something I don't know that it has to be shown I I know that um I know that there's people that have zero interest in it but I know that the majority of the dog training world would love to see it and she she definitely for the level of OCD that she had to me also ranked High I mean I haven't had we haven't had a dog that has had specific OCD like that at that level um we had did have one recently and um he did not make it we tried and tried and tried and tried um and it was a kind of a version of that and we same thing we're trying to get him to redirect and it wasn't it wasn't like he was OCD like with her with licking the floor and and almost inappropriate behaviors with it you know it was almost just looked like as soon as he was out he was like a normal dog in the in this in our you know he lived in the office for a while and he was he was fine when he was inside as soon as he went outside so it was almost like was it predatory tribe was it but we couldn't quite put our finger on it but it was um we had him for a long time and I'm sad really bummed that we weren't able to we we weren't able to turn things around with him and we were of course trying to go to play but we could not get him to stay focused on any kind of toy no matter what we what we tried you may have been

able to do it but we were not able to do it and sometimes it's also even I mean even even like the the whole candle environment and the kennel schedule kind of doesn't doesn't help you need to get them totally out of all antecedents say anything I mean she was at the point that I we we can put her out in a kennel run and within two minutes I'm talking like the first couple of weeks you cannot bring her back you cannot catch her he has this wide bulge matte eyes and she is attacking unseen things and and she's redirecting and and she's just so sad yeah to where I had to I had to I had to change so many things ideally then then I mean I I mounted the camera on her kennel run I had a you know and then and then we went through so much different ideas and options um yeah they are not they're definitely the the those really extreme cases they they take time they take time in terms of you cannot work with that kind of dog for 15 minutes one day and come back two days or three days later and do another 15 minutes there is so much more of the bad type of reinforcement of that compulsion and that um you know that it cannot even come close to trying to fight with it but again like I I would never say medication doesn't have place but what I will say is that a lot of times I see it firsthand is that a dog owner will go because it sounds they feel that they are going to The Best of the Best it's an animal veterinary behaviors and they're they're like not that many in the country in the world you make an appointment you go through some q a they make an evaluation maybe an hour maybe an hour and a half long 400 500 later almost every dog walks out with a prescription we have not had great success when we have tried to consult with Veterinary behaviorists and in my before the Canine Center when I was in private practice uh there's a couple of clients that I had referred to a Veterinary behaviorist and never had success with that yeah I mean again like as I as I said like like if if you have a two groups with humans and you have a placebo and and the drug and within eight weeks or ten weeks or whatever the time period was no significant difference and those studies never came out because big Pharma don't want you to come out and like that book that I mentioned it's so good because the guy is a he is from inside he is one of the people that developed the whole movement and idea and then finally stepped out of it chemical imbalance it's it's a it's a very very sketch thing and and very difficult especially with dogs and

we we don't have there is no one single study forget about like like we're just prescribing communication that it's supposed to control chemical imbalance and mostly serotonin levels and now we know that you don't want to necessarily control serotonin levels because you're controlling all serotonin in your body and there is no evidence that serotonin even has anything to do why can't people like you to know all those things because uh um I definitely getting through all those studies I don't know how you have the time to do that all the research that you do about all the research but think thankfully you're doing it so yeah I don't I don't even know why I spent so much I mean it's interesting to me I mean this is why this is why I I originally came to you this is why I had uh you know I mean anytime anytime you said I I need you to look at a few dogs I'm like bring them I mean on one side I want to we we have that relationship now I I cannot like of course if I know that I can help you I will any day but in the beginning it was almost purely kind of just because of my own growth like like well let's see how how difficult that dog is have I seen that before where can we take it what can I pick like like it was just for my own uh Evolution if you want and and the same thing like with Karen overall so or or any I mean why would I attend a canine Symposium where I know that they will not talk in in a good way about certain things that I do because in the same reason you you call because we want to try to have the best opportunity to to be better people for those dogs that's really why we're doing it yeah and I and I from um best friends she and I have become friends over the years and she um and I I was very comforting that Dr Carly was there to be like I could sit with her and um doctor I can I don't know how to pronounce Victoria's last name Dr cuson Busan anyway from the SPCA and um she's definitely uh she just was at the Canine Center recently so it was nice uh nice to have her there but and and people were but listen I I go through I I go through the same thing I'm going into the South hostile territory for me to go up there and to be um but you know I hate that and I don't want it to be that way and I because I'm gonna I want to go and learn like everybody else and so it was all just just being brave enough to go and be a part of it and I learned I have in fact this is right here nice because I have all my notes from it and everything and I have been intending to write some emails as well and um some thank you emails and everything else and and reaching out to the to the people that I learned some good stuff from and

everything and then also sharing some feedback but I haven't gotten around to those emails and maybe I'll check it out but I have this here Forefront and there's a ton of things that I brought back and said to the team I was firing things off to them like crazy let's try this let's try that and um uh and you know anything that's going to expand our programming and so that we can help the dog because it is the amazing thing about what we do and just to your point that you just said there was some curiosity about coming up and seeing what we were doing and that even in all of your years and you were in Sheltering and you were working you know helping dogs at San Francisco SPCA originally right that was your first shelter that you were working with right at all yes and this was and this was back in the early 90s this was when Gene was there right no I was me and Gene overlapped like for probably less than a year we just couldn't find a common ground yeah you can imagine yeah yeah we both have this personality which are um but those were times when fighting rings I mean there was like national conventions there was like West conferences conference like a like a baseball league you know like Animal Care the cops and us will go and bust a ring with with dogs and then some of the dogs will come in and now now I listen to some of uh like uh the Youtube dog training influencers you know like oh I work with pit bulls in shelters and it's like in the shelter that you're working chances are that big book has nothing to do with fighting like with actual pit bulls that are selected like that like again there's levels you know and and it's the interest that like we we have the interest to to learn their side and for some reason they don't but I tell you something I have conversations and I'm sure you have conversations like I'm like with a high high high level knowledgeable people that have a very different facade in front of the world and when we talk the conversation is very different I cannot convince them to come to talk on a podcast cannot because probably they have a a position and something well established and they are at risk that I mean I mean look at the just a a silly podcast that I did with Michael cicacio a ridiculously stupid podcast that we didn't nothing was said nothing and and actually reached out to Michael when I saw that go down like you know and I I know Michael from afar I haven't known him well he I I love it though because he uses a video I think in a lot of in many of his presentations of my son handling a dog in a in a top kennel and Cody's handling was just beautiful and so he uses that as far as safety and

kind of defensive handling I think Trish McMillan uses it too and I had reached out to him to say I saw you wrote a post I heard that you're on Ivan's podcast I haven't even listened to it yet but I'm assuming that that's what that's about and whatever you're being put through I'm so sorry and um I I think I I the vitriol is I I guess I also cannot wrap my brain around if you there's a community community that is fighting for trainers not using verses I cannot wrap my brain around the cruelty and the meanness to people in that process like I just don't understand the hip to me there's such a hypocrisy of that so then that always leads me to them because the the because and listen I can be a I can get pretty cranky about stuff and get pretty worked up and pretty reactive about things and I think okay what makes me get that reactive and what makes me get that emotionally driven about something especially if I'm supposed to have a clear head and have a level of professionalism or whatever about me so it always brings me back to that that the people that are in that position and that end up being so hateful about it I think it because they are they honestly feel that they are they're trying to protect animals from cruelty I mean this is what drives them to it so but I I don't know I guess it's kind of redundant we already talked about that but I it's just it's challenging for me to unders understand it but but not to not to be able to talk not to be able to come and have a conversation and and answer question and allowed to be challenged and challenge me back like say say all the things that you're saying in presentation say all the bring all the studies that you like like have that dialogue because I will have something to say I will have something back to say that's gonna challenge you and stimulate you to think a little bit further and and not necessarily point a finger and say ah see I got you maybe maybe you have a very legit solid answer to my questions but everybody wants to hear that we I think we're done with what science says because clearly everything that canine science has said so far has not done anything to change the the the Divide and I'm like maybe you would want to come to the podcast or I talk to on your platform like talk about dog training you're a dog trainer and you don't like electric colors you think they're horrible tool let's talk about it maybe maybe you convinced me why what makes you think that you cannot convince me I think you said something earlier when when I was talking about I've got 18 kennels on either side you said well I don't and I wanted to ask you about that you said I don't think the

competitive setup like that is really the answer can you tell me more about that yeah because um I don't know like I I've competed all of my life like I'm extremely competitive person and I guess I understand what competition does like you you in competition if you're competitive you're not just join it for recreation if you're competitive you would do whatever it takes to to have a the odds in your favor and I don't think that's what's about I think it's about I I think it's about even you know like when you said you you use positive reinforcement and you use it just as good as them I would argue with any single positive trainer that I can at least do it on their level that's how well I understand positive reinforcement and I promise you that I probably will learn something from them about positive reinforcement and I promise you that they will learn something from me about positive reinforcement that they do not know they have no idea simply because they stay in the bubble they have chosen to stay I watch them how they like again like I watch I take so much time because it's interesting to me to know and and and be very very current on everything I know the level of positive reinforcement they have and I know that they can learn something from us and as I said I know that for sure I will take something from them so even if we start there even if we don't bring a verse if training at all and we just collaborate to begin with on positive reinforcement techniques I think there is a lot to be done a lot to improve on both sides but even even that's a problem problem right because I think that even being associated with trainers like us is too risky within that within that community and that's what happened to you know that's why Michael got all the way that he did yeah and you know what is really crazy about me and Michael like we had that conversation and [Music] and I I know quite a bit of what Michael does because I I have paid attention to what he does I don't know if he even knows a little bit of any of my training besides uh some I I actually don't know because we never really even went there we just it was a first conversation of what I thought we can have more but I'm afraid to even hit a like on his Facebook because of the blowback that he'll experience right yeah you know it's um I mean even like few weeks ago uh Gene Donaldson and she had a little Facebook wife which which feel for graduate students and and they were talking about him without saying his name and how they are still having that reluctance to to even attend any event of his or something like it's still a big big deal you know it's it's stunning to me

because he's an accomplished trainer and he does he does good work and and he's he delivers information really well I think he's a I mean I think that I just think that it's a shame I think that people should be I actually did a little bit of a rant post of my own recently because you know there's there's a group that seems to want to promote their work by debunking ours that's just kind of their shtick that they do and um it just gets annoying after a while and I finally just typed off about it I'm like why why not stand on your own merits it also that's I guess that's why I get to this competitive place about I I I'm tired sometimes of Defending defending the the work that we're trying to do on behalf of dogs especially when I know I know that if you put me in a position I you know it's like the proof is in the pudding I know that I can outperform in some circumstances so I want that to be the thing it's like can you stop okay if we go toe-to-toe together then will you stop if I actually if I actually can you know beat you in that competition and so that's why I thought it was so interesting you being a competitor of why so I guess that's where I'm coming from and it's it's maybe not the most sophisticated place for me to come I'm just so tired and to be honest with you it has a really it has a strong impact on our work because it has a lot to do with why or if people will or will not fund us that was just I was I was going there I wasn't going right there because exactly that's serious for us yes you know I'm you know and you have to choose to save lives help dogs or be politically correct so you can get the funding that's that's a horrible place to be at oh yeah and you and I have you know you and I had a conversations in the past where I've had to share with you like I'm really reluctant because there are some things and boy do I hate that you know like I really want I consider myself a person of Integrity I like I mean I'm the kind of person would you know I'm not a very shy person I'm really like wide open wear my heart on my sleeve fully want to be fully transparent about everything and I just sometimes I feel like I do have to be considerate of the people that do back our work because even you know this conversation today you know I want to make sure when we were talking about it like let's really it's time because the stakes are so high right now and to be honest with you I was pretty inspired to come speak with you after going to the canine sciencing program because there's some things that were again I learned things and then there's some things that are Troublesome and I always have because I'm not an academic

I have to go to the people and bounce things off of them and I remember once my point is is that I've had to be careful sometimes you've asked me do you want to have this conversation can you help me with this and I've had to say I don't think I can help you with that right now but to be honest with you I just I just it's almost like being reasonable isn't helping like me trying to be like just even trying to invite people and it literally has gotten in the way of funding for us so it's no joke so when I have other other programs that I give the courtesy of referencing them positively and I will even refer clients to them I will do those things because I will leave it as the right thing to do in that moment that I think their program will serve this agency well and therefore the dogs will benefit people will benefit right so I care about the outcomes for the animals more than anything but it gets exhausting to then have to have the the little petty posts about debunking everything that we say to lift themselves up I mean why don't you lift some somebody lift yourself up on the merits of your own work the proof is in your own pudding stop focusing on mine so much you know you'll help more dogs if you just get in there and you know do it more just just go to the shelter and get some dogs out just do that get away from your freaking computer and your keyboard Warrior stuff and good get into the shelters and if the program is really good and it's working and it's better ultimately should be a matter of time to where everybody would move out to the better option right I mean that would be logically I'll train to change what I do I was at the science Symposium a few years ago I think it was the last one because then they didn't have them for the pandemic and Janice Bradley was there talking about a big brain and uh Dr Merkin was presenting some of the playgroup research that she'd done at that time and I turned to Janice and I said do I need to change what I'm doing based upon this research and she said not yet it's not there yet but um and I love Dr Markham but uh at any rate so I said okay you tell me when there's research like Ivan you if you came to me and said Amy listen I found this research about why you you need to let your trainers build relationship with individual dogs and it's not have been proven I'd say okay that I give because here's good research that's that is demonstrating that this is the way to go but one of the things that really had bothered me too you know it was around punishment I think it was Dr fearbacher's and there was this study and I'm sure you know of it about what the smokers do you

remember that how human beings they had they put basically some kind of a shocking device on human beings to see if they could use punishment to prevent them from smoking right and it was kind of flip but they were just talking about well the the people just took them off right so that clearly didn't but the I think it was presented as if the punishment didn't work I'm like well that's silly the whole point is what if they had an ankle bracelet right like you couldn't take off right Would It ultimately work would there be would there be a point where punishment could succeed in making people stop smoking cigarettes so not that I'm I'm not invested in that one way or another I'm just saying that it was it it seems silly to me to say that oh it was it was a failed it didn't work because they would just take the device off that's not the conclusion that you should come to from that you know it's called the like like again I I would love to talk to her I would love to talk to her even if it's in private I wish she contacts me because that it's a conversation to be had like it's a good conversation to be had um you know like pretty much everything that it's it's you know what I said earlier uh it's all about the worst case scenario and it's all about this non-contingent use of shock there is no reason to to talk about it clearly this is a bad idea there is no reason to use somebody's money for that it's clearly a bad idea those grants can go into much more sound research let's find out how it works because sometimes it works and it works better and sometimes you cannot even know that you cannot even tell which dogs are have used the versiven which have used only positive reinforcement but which ones are better without without knowing and then dive into that and find out how um talking about aggression like like in her presentation you know it's one of the favorite places that they like to go to um in the I don't know it was 60s or 50s hours in and pulling two wraps in a Skinner box putting a shock either in their brain or the floor and they attack each other what does that have to what does any of that have to do with the work that we do today right and and I you know it's funny it is interesting like I have like when I saw some of even pavlovs uh video documentation of his studies for the salivation I was I couldn't watch it it's I thought those poor dogs the condition of the dogs you know there's I'm thinking so I watch some of those studies thinking that is I know we need these things supposedly to have knowledge and now we won't do it anymore because the other and it was those poor animals at those times when they were

going through all of that right I just saw that I even find that curious that I I can't even stand watching some of the videos of this stuff yeah so I'm like I don't need to see all that to know that I have a dog in front of me that needs my help and what can I do to help them cope and Thrive and become more resilient and more happy like well-balanced and normalized right right because if that was the case imagine I mean all like the number of electric colors that are out there imagine the level of aggression in in dogs that are just attacking and biting randomly everybody we will not be able to have dogs at that point if that was the case but on top of that on top of that just for a second even even in that very worst case scenario there is a further research that was done that shows that even on contingent provoked induced aggression can be suppressed effectively through punishment forever like there is plenty of research for that she didn't mention that part because it doesn't fit the narrative it doesn't fit the the the point that you wanted to bring in through the to the presentation that she had now I well I agree more than anybody that there is very shitty training going on but um for you not to be able to help a dog because of somebody doing really shitty things to dogs with or without electric cover there is no logic to that well right because you could apply it to apply it to anything else apply it to driving a car right yeah some people drive cars very irresponsibly and recklessly and people get hurt as a result of it so why why are we still in cars yeah and the only reason most of us the 99 of people drive responsibly is because we're trying to avoid penalties and not buy two rules there will be there will be like if you imagine society today and there is no more cops there is no more consequences to rules kind of like what goes on in California um right now you know we're not going to get into politics are we no no no no no no no it'd be so crazy but imagine what happens well how do you even drive down the street there will be a cows yes yes that's like that's the funny that's my thing actually there would be chaos in the universe if we really thought that this bizarre human construct that we've come up with that was discovered in a laboratory with animals being completely controlled and manipulated right and we consider that one of the foundational things it's just a human construct that that's all it is and I can't remember who it was but one of the things that somebody somebody kind of mocked people like me that will say I'm more of a naturalist I'm going to follow the lead of what I see

animals and creatures and what happens in nature to me because that's the real deal right everything that we've created comes from systems that already exist in nature right so I to me it's why would I want to construct something that is completely unnatural it does not exist anywhere else other than by human construct you know what was interesting it just reminded me again going back to the it was actually the the closing on the canine Symposium what was Sarah Sarah I I don't know her name yeah I wouldn't remember but she had that yeah she had that closing and it was uh it was about um wolves and free-range dogs and and pets right and this big push to keep talking that wolves and dogs are so radically different and to give the analogy between how Apes how chimps and humans have 99 identical DNA but we are so different and to transfer that to wolf and dog difference it's so far-fetched like there is there is an a Very unknown problem of how humans how why we are who we are why none of the other species on earth have that level of abstract thinking function mathematics music and whatever there is something that we do not know but what we do now and cannot be twisted wolves and dogs behave very very similarly to to the point that they can you know like like there is a lot of lessons to be learned and the only reason they are driving so strongly that push is to avoid the dominance Theory well interestingly I just saw I was just flipping through reels and I saw this incredible um uh video of gorillas and there is a a mother with a baby on her back and then another it must have been an adolescent I don't know if it was a male or a female kind of went up to hassle her and the Silverback came from the back well boom went right over and got him and basically submitted the other one oh yeah he was a little punk I saw that one too you saw that one too right and so I I what what lens do you look at the world through right when I think about independence and everything I think wow that was a beautifully um delivered correction yeah it was appropriate and good and um but you know we don't see much of what happened after that right The Reel cuts off right away so we'd be curious to see but I just I find that so fascinating when I see animals no matter what species uh communicating naturally the way they want to communicate without human interference and I just think you can't learn I mean you just learned so much from them if you're just a good Observer and I I think coming back to like training dogs in the shelter environment I think that it's very hard to put all this together like I think you're getting the gist of

where I come from with things but then I'm looking at but now I'm enclosing animals and a kettle too like I have a kennel too right so I'm not into this oh let's everybody just be free and do what they want but I I there has to be rules and regulations and all this kind of stuff between that's how everything functions you know everything functions that way there has to be again go back to cars what we do if we were just all getting in our cars and there were no streets and traffic lights even there wasn't even all of that but I think from a training perspective why why would I okay with with shock collars I can tell you that there is one Technique we call it the electric leash technique and it's because we've had a number of dogs that come in where the leash has already been weaponized uh for them right so they have high defense if a person has a hold of a leash and and they're also super high drive typically so they have strong strong play Drive they want to tug they want to do whatever whatever and they have accomplished and rehearsed basically leash climbing going after the person if you dare try to guide them in any way there it's basically game on this has happened on antecedent for for yeah right exactly just the act of having a leash on so of course if I say if I'm if I who was the guest that you had last she was a wonderful I loved listening to her foreign yeah so I loved her in it and I thought it really fascinating that she's competing and that she's really really um dedicated to being to remaining uh without using a versage for her training to a competitive level I really wish that I I could have her come down too and say okay in our circumstance where this is dangerous for people to handle so to me that's an immediate this has to be off the table you grabbing that leash is off the table and I don't want it to be about me I don't want you to be upset with me or think I'm upset with you it has nothing to do with what how can I very cleanly provide Clarity for you putting your mouth on that leash is just off limits and that is one technique where we will where the dog doesn't necessarily have a lot of other Foundation where we will go to a remote collar because it makes it less personal with us and it makes it just about the leash and it's like a one and done and it's for the dogs that we feel like it will be dangerous for us and because there is so much that's already been front loaded in them and there is so much experience and reinforcement history to that behavior and then if it's not dealt with right away it's ending up redirect onto the Handler and so like that's an example of

where we'll go immediately instead of trying to build um you know alternative rewardable behaviors or replacement behaviors that is a whole part of our repertoire most of the time we're always trying to build all of the foundation these are the things you can do because by the time I tell you you absolutely may not do that anymore you have all these other choices right that are very well reinforced for you but sometimes they come in and we can't even get to the good stuff because it's so dangerous right and and I just cannot even describe it and I just have I have to interrupt you and make us like a note to everybody that listens when when you're talking about dangerous dogs and dogs climbing up the leash like these are dangerous dogs climbing up the leash this is not your average dog like like some of the dolls that end up at dog's play for life and and and they're an extreme examples of of difficult dolls that can be turned around in a lot of cases sorry I I had to make sure that it's not a because everybody thinks oh I've seen that kind of dog oh I've dealt with so many dogs like that and and chances are you have not and I mean it is the reason why I use so many of your dogs and and and stuff even in my course because of the the level of pronounced of dangerous Behavior sometimes well I appreciate you acknowledging that so both you and but here's the thing but I don't want people to have the impression that we we want to be lion Tamers and we are also accused of that right we also get told why are you putting this much um resource into these problematic dogs when and it is true now our industry we were basically had got by the time the Canine Center came around we really were in the United States you know most dogs that were adoptable and of course there are some places that perfectly healthy animals were being euthanized but we were moving really really farther and farther away from that unfortunately right now I think we're back to it a bit so I'll have to rethink you know maybe it we won't need we maybe we can't help this this level right now maybe we have to go down to we're just going to have jumpy mouthies that we have to because there's going to be too many of those as dogs are being warehoused in shelters right and their needs aren't being met and they're being driven crazy in the shelters and that so that is one of the key components to why we do what we do it's not because I get off on being a lion tamer and look at how I can work all these most difficult dogs that's not what it's about what it's about for us is that from what I saw over all these years and I started doing this in 1998

working with shelter dogs exclusively is that that dog is behaving that way because of what its circumstances are and what is not being provided and who wouldn't behave that way and so it was to me it's a matter of we don't have the right to call it on them if we had something to do with why they're there so if once we've done something for me like I will I it's as important for for us to call animals that should not be placed as companion animals in our society I find that responsibility just as important oh yeah and I am not a believer in that we that we can save them all I think that there are some animals that are not appropriate to be companion animals I know we've had those conversations we've had this actually both of us in tears making these decisions yeah yeah exactly and it's it's because and it is true that maybe maybe there is always a home and so I you know actually I don't mean to be disrespectful to those that really want especially if somebody is willing to provide a sanctuary that will and I'm not talking about any particular organization I'm in individuals at all if somebody wants to take an animal home and live in a situation and as long as not at the expense of others right I mean I understand it's just that I'm handing this dog when I was a private trainer I had many many clients I used to be pretty darn good at pretty Advanced aggression cases even when I was just a you know not a shelter trainer but I was a trainer and with my pretty high-end clients and many many times I would come in and they would say my dog has bitten this person this person this person I am not putting my dog down and I'm hiring you to help me install some training so I have some insurance like I might have that window to prevent my dog from biting somebody again and also to teach me proper management but I will not euthanize my dog and I'm like okay that's fine that's fair if you're willing to take responsibility for this animal's behavior I will give you my best professional advice for you to prevent this dog from making a mistake it's going to harm another again I will do my very best right there's only one private client that I discontinued working with them because they had a golden retriever that was um such uh the the kind of resource guarding was weird and very concerning and I had taken him in his uh board and train and they had small children at home and I said you know what what I'm seeing in this dog I really do not feel comfortable that this dog is going to be safe in your home environment and so that was the one where where I felt like I don't feel like I can resolve this for you in your current home situation I

didn't necessarily believe that the dog need to be euthanized that I did not believe he was going to be safe with these this age children that's the only time every time outside would accommodate the client but as soon as I ended up in Sheltering full-time it's a whole different ball game to be the one putting that animal in someone's hands if an owner already owned the dog I didn't you know I'm just gonna help you because you're now in a bad situation but I don't want to create that bad situation for you and so you know it is you know we do have uh we're at like 83 to 84 save rate with the dogs that we work with now we have never Janice Bradley asked me once has uh any of the dogs that you've placed you know like hospitalized someone have you had any you know level four level five or like hospitalizations and I said no and she said well you're already doing better than the average public you know dogs out in the public right so she expected that we we had placed dogs that there had been some terrible incident and no not that hasn't happened we also are returned adoption rate um is at I think it was 13 10 between 10 to 13 which is within the normal range of adoption return adoptions for regular shelters and regular dogs so to me what's so important about that is it's not because I don't want to claim easy for us to say oh yeah we fixed that dog we had a positive outcome but then what happens we know we're keeping close contact with the dogs that we put in the community we also have gone to pick up dogs we will always stand by our dogs that's also another thing I very much do not want to place dangerous animals I do not but I also don't want to and put it I don't want us as the Sheltering Community or as Animal Welfare to have driven a dog to this behavior and then say oh well now we're now we're going to call it because they're not behaving well I think they they really deserve a fair and comprehensive assessment and attempted intervention and not tempting information beautiful yeah yeah exactly yeah I think that's what they deserve there's something I was gonna so you're um the gal that was just on with you she was wonderful it was really curious because I would let like there was a German Shepherd that we did that electric leash technique and by the way let me interfere let me let me stop you because I wanted to say something in about that and it just went back and you just got my my thought uh back um you know like she like she will not she she will be right along with you she will not um she will try anything in her repertoire and in her knowledge with all the force-free approach but when it comes down to

can she save the dog or can she attempt to save a dog by using anniversary if she would have no restriction not to help the dog and that's something right that's something very important exactly and this was what uh Michael she cashier which I kind of put him in at that place and he he basically said the same thing there is sometimes a place where this can be the only opportunity to give a chance and he said that he would and that's what that's what killed him yeah so I I admire them like yes do what you do and and hats off and then if you know I wouldn't think of of them as ideologists I think of them as trainers so that's why they they would try to help a dog and try to help her and I mean I mean these are families they have a dog and that dog's gonna be put down just like a kid that has cancer and everything is off the table like it's months left would you give it a try yes you would why wouldn't you right why wouldn't you well and well and also again you know for me Behavior change is so interesting right it's just so interesting to your to your point what was the speaker's name that I like that you're just referencing yo Rosie okay so I respected that about her but but also that she wanted to be a purist with her own personal competition dog right she was really really trying and that because that's a completely different scenario right so when this uh remember Chris that came down to you our my team member Chris yes right so he is our um training and behavior manager at the Canine Center now it was really cool that I mean he was really good here yeah he's really good so talented and um and he's a great teacher and he um I came into one of the stints and they had a German Shepherd that was this is one of the dogs that we did the electric leash technique with and Chris came to me right away and Chris is my strongest my strongest Handler my strongest trainer and he um he said listen I I just don't know this dog is making me nervous I'd like you did Chris does not get nervous very easily at all right and he's very capable and the leash climbing on this dog made him that nervous that he wanted to be in a bite suit right to actually walk this dog out and everything so um at any rate that's why we went to this technique I said Chris if you're telling me that that's it let's get this off the table right away and um I would love for Joe Rosie to come I wish that somebody like that was with and because if we were missing something if there was a way for us to redirect him positively to something else we a hundred percent would have done it what I think is so interesting is when people can get really creative

that's one of the things that I find like when she when she talks about training in her clubs and they're saying we can fix this for you right now she's like let me go back and think and I want to try to create that scenario because they become Masters at managing the environment and access to resources right it is so interesting how creative they can become and I do always think that and we've we pride ourselves on doing that too but I'm like wow I'd be curious to see if she saw this dog in action would she say I think we can create a situation where you could possibly reinforce him for either an approximation or for something else and I'd be fascinated to know that wow I didn't even think about that I mean I love those moments but I'd be curious I'd really be curious like there was one dog that we had that went back to his original because we we didn't recommend placement for him it was the only dog that we'd had he'd been with us for weeks we still had you had to be in a bite suit to to and the only thing that we were doing with him is interestingly at our Center we can get a dog out of its kennel and out into our big beautiful free roam yard it's like 13 acres fenced in right and because For Me Freedom Independence you know is so important to as a lip for a living being we want to provide that no matter what right out of the Chute I want to satiate them first and attend to their needs first before I start kind of compressing and organizing them and expecting things from them we always go there first and um so anyway we can Corral dogs out of the kennels and just so if we can't handle them yet and you know most dogs just to let you know if we identify that a dog is offensively aggressive to people in other words we can't open the kennel and just let them Corral themselves out and then take a a pack walk with them and just migrate through the the field because they will just come attack us when we're not we're just minding our own business I don't we don't try to resolve that is so rare it's so rare it's usually nothing any of their aggression has usually nothing to do with that especially with people so that is something if we identify that we're we're calling it right but we can we can Corral these dogs out and they'll get moving with us and we and we'll do all these different things with them and so we can take our time so we don't have to be so invasive and put them into defense so we have all these abilities to manipulate these things but this guy still is sad for and he had been heavily medicated and he had been kept at a shelter for a long time and he had one Handler that could handle him and that

person was trying to take him home and then was trying to acclimate him with that person's partner and it you know I felt very heartfelt and it was very hard to tell her we do not believe we can resolve this issue because it was two weeks later or a couple weeks later we still had to be in a bicep because if he felt anything he had to you know he had a long line drag he had to live with the long line Dragon for a while if he felt anything he he would cross like to come back at you it was just so um anyway these are just kind of yeah yeah no no that's but this is the the kind of call I'm trying to make to to all trainers that are interested no no balance no Force free whatever all trainers that are interested to collaborate because we we learn from each other and like I get stuck I get stuck some not sometimes pretty much on daily basis watching YouTube videos of influencers on both sides and so many balance trainers are are [Music] that like I I would say eighty percent aversive training and maybe 20 percent of some positive reinforcement but but not not like like a primitive level positive reinforcement to where when you you know like when I teach at no school lately I've been emphasizing this to to everybody Force three people they're they're handicapped like imagine left leg and left arm you don't have them you don't have negative reinforcement you don't have positive punishment in order for you to function you have to you have no choice you have to become very good at mastering reinforcement programs now Susan Garrett talked about that a time with you yeah she talked a lot unfortunately she she didn't want to converse I had to just let her talk I was a little bit sad about how that conversation went because um I don't know she just came with the agenda to to say that she's better she she wanted to say that she's better without ever knowing what I do like not not even nothing but but if you you know like like that there is there is a lot to be learned on both sides that's bottom line a lot to be learned on both sides and ultimately it's a combination if you are not open to then you're limited I you know I I that is exactly why I've tried to learn as much as I can from as many different kinds of trainers as possible when I was at a long Humane Society I um and it's very interesting when you're a shelter trainer a lot of times in communities the the the trainers that are in the community I don't look down on you like oh you're a shelter trainer because you couldn't make it in the real world right so a lot of times trainers would come in and um they would want to they would sometimes in fact I in fact I

did this talk at iacp last year about how to create mutually beneficial relationships as a professional trainer with shelters because a lot of trainers come in kind of to do their demo for the shelters literally usually what they're really looking for is to get referred by the shelters right so maybe they'll come in and offer to help a little bit that they really want to be referred and um I ended up reaching out to trainers all over in the community all different kinds of trainers some which I you know I wouldn't want to train the way that they're training but I learned about them and invited them to the shelter and um treated them with with professional respect many of them would come in and want to just kind of show off to me about how great their techniques are going to work but it was interesting when you when I sent them in with problem dogs in the shelter environment how many of them would say well you know I have to I need time to build relationship I need time to do this I'm like I don't have that time right we've got to do it right here right now right you'll you know we'll get there but you got to get this dog out of the kettle right here right now but what I would do is I would observe them and I learned about their their Styles their techniques their programs that way when I had a dog that came up I thought this dog I think will really thrive in that trainers program and so I had this community of trainers that were willing to help if I called them about a particular dog and we ended up I started to host training um Friday nights at my house and we would all get together and we would pick somebody that would be our coach and in the beginning you know you would see people would kind of be you know the same types of trainers would be paired off with one another and there was some tension because there were some old rivalries there were some shelters that I mean some trainers that were from the same community and competitive with one another that um so we had you know every kind of training and interestingly over time when they started to have some respect for each other somebody would finally reach out and maybe somebody who was used remote callers primarily would ask the clicker trainer hey I'd like to you want to coach me on this session so it was really interesting and I loved creating that community and um haven't been able to replicate it since but I really I really really did love that and back to like what you were talking about before with the kind of dogs and the lion taming stuff with us is that um funny when it's very reinforcing for us when somebody of your caliber comes in

and says okay this is the real deal and Jay Jack did that with us too you know especially with fight bust you know fighting dogs and everything because that's really his shtick he um with gamebred dogs he he said everybody tells me that they've got oh they've got a real and he the same thing came in and said this is you've got a kennel full of the one percenters right here right but um but why does that matter I mean why did I bring it back around to that I think it's about when you think about the trainers that I've even had come down to the facility to work with us and everything it's um because we learned something from everybody it is the only way forward yeah we have we are accomplished enough in our programming that I do only invite trainers that have demonstrated results like I can see it for myself either and I you know I have to like watching a person with a dog in hand like there's some people that know so much like they understand training really well you know I talk about in my presentations the difference between a master Handler and a master trainer and ideally you strive to be both so you have a good clinical understanding but you also can be magical when a dog is in hand with you but the problem with that is if you're really just a masterful Handler you can make a dog look damn good but it doesn't mean that the dog understands independently these behaviors now you're a competition trainer so you obviously are an expert at teaching dogs to do a very very complex task independently right but think about average just trainers out there in the world a lot of them do not have much understanding about how to to train something at a complex level like that or even to get to the underlying this is what's been so curious for us is these underlying motivators like maybe for you you're gonna be like duh but I might have been training for quite some time and it was about two years ago that I thought you know it was sustained we call it sustained eye contact drills so we have uh that's what we call it maybe other people have been doing it I just nobody had taught me this before and it just finally came to me is that we had all these stranger danger dogs and we're trying to teach them how to greet people appropriately and I I kept watching my handlers and I'm thinking we all intuitively will avert our eyes at the right time if a dog is uncomfortable but an average person that's exactly what they do wrong right they'll have the big smile they'll be forward they'll be staring at the dog or if they're concerned about the dog they're going to be just watching the dog like a hop right and so I realized that for so many

dogs that was said talk about an antecedent right that was a big trigger for a lot of the dogs to not feel comfortable right no matter what whether we had them in if I have the dog holding the sit and I my Handler approaches the stranger that was another thing that we decided let's make sure that the dog knows you're not responsible for figuring out if this person is Friend or Foe right you just Hold Your Position I'll go out and all is your Handler demonstrate to you that this person is friendly right but then when I realized about the sustained eye contact thing it was like oh we we train our dogs to give his eye contact as a default response if there's anything that's either concerning exciting whatever that they should check in with a Handler we want that as a default right and we do a pretty good job at that but now I told my team I'm like I want us to teach the dogs to avert their eyes from people because people are going to make this mistake so let's train for that let's prepare them for that so we had one dog in particular that was a face popper right she didn't want to bite you but she you know if you gave her eyes she'd boom um so we started with her so we do well I'm not going to describe the drills because it's too bright right here but it was a matter of just teaching her and it was funny because we had conditioned the eye contact right so she was looking at us perfectly happy but there was a point where she's like what are you doing like that's so uncool because we would just stare at her and then we would start marking her for when she would break over her eyes or break her eye contact so then we started reinforcing the heck out of that with other people when the dogs but you know like I haven't how long did that take me to figure that out how long have I been training dogs and then finally two years ago with this particular I was like why are we teaching the dogs to overt their eyes when they're uncomfortable if they don't like the way someone's looking at them why don't we teach them that yeah I mean there's there's like there's that and there is that other version of um the opposite one to where you you actually you before the dog even looks at the trigger you tell me it's right there and then you change it back and forth but yeah I mean these are these are the skills that we need to be sharing this is why I wish that there is a there has to be a different almost a different organization I know that allows everybody to come together and in my world and I'm wondering what you think about this how much it would pertain to the competition world or just the professional dog training world

I I tell my team all the time the universe is not going to adjust to this dog the environment is not going to adjust to this dog right and that's what we always talk about also training this whole concept about blown thresholds that's another one that makes me go nuts because and I think Joe Rosie did talk about that she actually reinforced that a little bit too like I'm always talking about I would not only want to knock on the door of that threshold but I do want to step over it in the training process because life is going to blow our thresholds you know you're going to walk around a corner when you're out in public and you might not be ready but a reactive dog comes around the corner so it's just as important for the dog to understand how to manage themselves when their threshold is Blum or or teaching these dogs to try to manage themselves or default to something else even if the Handler doesn't support them correctly because this is an average person this is not a professional trainer that this dog is going to go home with so we want to first of all find out what is what are you going to do what's your worst case scenario when you're not being supported correctly and when you really can behave the way you want to behave we've got to discover that and the interesting thing is in private training you know we very much you know we don't need we don't want your dog to be allowed to rehearse that you don't need to show it to me right because every time they're they're rehearsing it they're self-rewarding and you're just but in my world I a hundred percent want the dog to show me who are you going to be when all these things these stars align for you what what is your worst case scenario because I actually need to know what I'm solving for right so I can't I don't want to be managing managing it from the onset I don't want to I don't want to create errorless learning I absolutely do for me I think there's a time and a place like okay this is a cutesy little thing that I'm not teaching you to go to place and we're in the front lobby and I'm going to free shape that that's how we train it and everything sure I want to do all that kind of stuff but when we're coming down to the problem and the actual reason that you're with me you know that that's all the kind of stuff that's become these dogs have taught me even though I had the privilege of working with marine mammals I had the privilege of training Exotics I had the privilege of training horses and I think that is also some reason why I'm so open to more comprehensive is because when you work with multiple species some that are no contact and that you can't physically

manipulate and some that it's all about physical manipulation like most horse work right you know it's like I just learned in a podcast just the one I did like sea lions they typically hate to be touched it actually have to work your way to that level even even though they look very similarly like you're training dogs but there is there is definite differences we have dogs that we start out as we're working with an exotic no contact and animal because they have they are very well rehearsed in telling you what they do not like right and they've had very bad experiences so we in the beginning we still have to be able to work with them even if we can't touch them and then we also have to be able to teach them if there is nothing that's positively reinforcing for us to provide for them that's that's my big rant about why we Embrace I think in training programs for shelters there are two things that really make our program stand out number one is that while we build relationship every time we're interacting with animals we do not rely upon the relationship to be the thing that is progressing them and number two is we Embrace negative reinforcement as much as positive reinforcement to be teaching new behaviors because when the dogs tell us that I have nothing to offer you that is positively reinforcing to you either because I'm frightening to you right you don't want food you don't want touch you don't want to play you don't want any of those things I still have to be able to teach you yeah so if I don't know how to use negative reinforcement effectively I am incredibly handicapped and most likely the the environment will deteriorate that animal further than where they even are starting from faster than I'll be able to help them if I am not willing to embrace elegant negative reinforcement yeah you've taught us so much about the overuse of negative reinforcement and not being able to finish behavior when you stay lingering in that state too long oh we learned all that from you we have to you know what I was thinking and I'm gonna I mean I I will talk to you outside the podcast about this building because it's been uh something we we've been talking about lately quite a bit um you know how sometimes you come and you bring dogs for for my uh certifications and stuff and I'm coming next week and I have two I want to bring you let's go okay you let me know I'll be there you know how it works but I think um I think we're gonna end up doing a little bit even better collaboration to where um I'm gonna be offering a different program for my graduates not the like so far we've been doing a lot with us current students always you know

but I I'm thinking to do some uh a different level of the of the school to where it's a lot of Hands-On and like they will come here for certain amount of weeks and we will arrange we have to talk work out all the logistics of it but you basically on your rent you're gonna have extra hands that are skillful and they will have the problematic dogs that they they can get better as trainers you know I keep not finishing my thought that working with dogs in a shelter environment is really what I think has made me uh a better trainer even with all the other animals and species and venues that I it was trying to help dogs in adverse conditions and and handing them off to somebody else who's not going to know what to do I think that definitely is the thing that made me a better trainer for sure and um I would love to have your students come up I think that we could definitely get something going with that and um you know we have I'm really pushing this year because there's always been high demand for us you know the seminars where we go out and to the shelters and we do the play group trainings and then we do basic like leash handling and yes which we actually didn't talk about this can you can you talk a little bit about this because I'm sure people will be interested and that's a very good uh thing that you're going around and teaching yeah we we provide Educational Services to shelters so we we travel to shelters and introduce our foreign Richmond programming we started to talk about it that's that every dog every day programming that revolves around the implementation of flavors and um that's the the core skills so we don't shelters call us and say will you come to a training on how to deal with omnis reactivity we will do that after you are implementing play groups after your dogs are getting out of their kennels every single day after we've taught you basically leash handling and kennel routines like the basic things to teach dogs that will that make them more mannerly and more appealing to adopters more pleasant to handle just in your day in and day out um once you've got that mastered then I'll help you with the tricky stuff because you can of course you're going to have if you're not doing all that stuff foundationally of course you're going to have reactive dogs right you cannot have that both ways you can't not be getting out of the dogs out of the kennels but say you know but I want to fix reactivity you know you just can't have that both ways so that's what we do we are running around putting teams on the ground two shelters to install that um and that's thanks to uh Petco love ASPCA Petco love foundation and the

ASPCA they sponsor those seminars and everything um but then we also have our mentorships our level one mentorships that are the Jacksonville Humane Society now where people can come to us for four days and learn about play group implementation so they can come to us and learn the same thing play groups leadership canopy teams then we have our level two mentorship where people can come to the Canine Center for four days and then we're usually working you know they're working on more difficult dogs and by the way we have students working our difficult dogs right so that what does that say right you got to get somewhere I've got to have dogs that students could actually handle right exactly they've got to go in the kennels and they've got to be strangers to these dogs and everything so they come and they learn more about using play groups as more of a behavior modification tool to work on dogs that are actually struggling with their dog to dog interaction because most of our dogs are definitely more on the selective side at the Canine Center and then we do specific behavior modification cases um and then the other program that we have is the shadow program where people can just come and drop in and just we just meet you where you are and just you just train dogs with us and we just kind of observe you you tell us it's really more catered to that individual person and they can come for as few or as many days as they want but to the point that you just talked about I really we don't have I don't have enough we've got 28 people on our team now but we don't have enough people to meet in the needs we've got a long wait list for seminars we've got a long wait list for dogs coming in we're trying to get many more students to us I keep watching this school that you have developed right I'm like wow look at him go and we really want to pump out people that can go into the animal Sheltering world we we're saying that we want to create the next generation of canine caretakers for shelters and that dpfl wants to train people we gotta up our game got a ready to help large dogs that are going to be kept longer in shelters we want to do that by training people how to be canine enrichment coordinators so they can get on the ground and start from the foundational pieces install Play groups and then build from there um and we want to do it through scholarships through that the well and fund you know because the one and I know you were you were so good to willing and I want to brag about you for a second if I may about how much you have um you know as one of the the best trainers in the world the amount that you have um

given to us how much of your time and expertise that you've shared with us and that you've been so generous you let willing come down to see you right before he passed last year you've let Chris come in and bring dogs with you um we've a couple people went through your school but you also invited us to send you know it just you've just done so much and I just want to thank you for that and you know I was actually really curious that when you did ask me to do this with you it is I'm curious I thought your audience is not going to be interested in what I have to say right because I just think I'm just like a baby trainer to your audience right so what do you think it is that's interesting about what we do other than because we're not lion Tamers yeah so really what it what is interesting is that first first and foremost the the intention to help dogs and teach people how to help dogs I mean I can just stop right there without elaborating further to that but that's on its own it's absolutely fantastic thing like hats off to that and every everybody that you have sent from Weyland and Claudia and Chris and and everybody they've been just like sponges like so willing so like I yeah I'm kind of gonna tear up a little bit because of Whalen um but that time Ivan that you gave Willen really he was so inspired from that time and Willen was one of those people as a matter of fact Cody and I talk about it all the time that um Cody's pretty phenomenal Handler I considered myself to be a pretty good Handler we kept talking about that wow Willen was one of those people just his handling ability just as handling no no there was a different role level of talent there you know yeah yeah like intuitively well you made his day when he came down there sometimes he would he would get a little bit sensitive person and you know he he was always hit really hard when the dogs was really struggling but that time of he was uh really impactful I I remember like the dogs he would bring like I'm like cute how did you even how did you even grind with the dog here of course remember the time that we had what was it oh I wanted to tell you that uh you remember when we were in your parking lot and we were trying to get it was Zoe that was Zoe that we were trying to get because she did not want to get back she was done with the crate yep she's like I'm done with this great [ __ ] so funny cool and then the other talk that you came but this is where this is where skills and and intuition come above any any learned skills that you have you know how to act in a moment that you you're learning you like what you've learned doesn't really help ing you

anymore and you just have to do something and you're going by intuition and he was he was one of those guys that it was that's why we liked each other because you know that this was very similar to both of us like he would he would trust his intuition and it wasn't uh like uh it wasn't misleading him you know no no he's really really talented but um do you remember when you first I think it was your you came down to just check us out for the first time and then you came back and you worked with a dog named Kate and she was the one you we were trying to determine she was very protective of her Handler but she liked people so you're you remember her yeah do you remember that bizarre because you were in the suit so you actually we were you were assessing her so you were actually the boogeyman actually showed up you came in in the suit and you were being threatening and do you remember that bizarre behavior where she came screaming across the yard she went out she did but it was it was I've never seen something like that because the she was like terrified yes it was very extreme what she really made it all she she made a story in her head like she was she was maybe five minutes ahead of what was happening and her story was not going well yeah I just wanted to I don't know if you've even shared it with you but that and it the she went she went cross the yard to go after you but like almost like screaming like she didn't want to right exactly she she was coming and she did not want Tony but so yeah now remember I said earlier if we identified offensive aggressive aggression to people we would not we not would not work with that but we really even seeing that even though she crossed the yard to get to you we I was just like but she loves me she enjoyed meeting people she just needed to feel like you were safe and everything but I just wanna you know that she's been placed and she's doing beautifully and awesome there's never been yeah yeah I would love to see something I would love to see her I'll try to find out for you I'll ask Lauren if she can uh look that up for you but I'm thinking when I asked you the question like what is your audience is going to want to hear about I think some of these funky cases might be interested for them interesting to them and Kate was definitely an interesting one and it took a while for us but um I'm glad that we stood by her and I fostered her for a while and she was an amazing dog to live with and so she was one of those even though she was wearing strangers or whatever once she had those routines that she knew oh when somebody comes to the door this is how these are

the things this is the drill that I go through um she really did enjoy people so it was really nice to have and that's that's what is the that's what it's about where uh and and how you know we we talk even whenever we talk the responsibility that you have knowing I mean it is a a different level of responsibility to try to place a dog um and and to be successful because so many people would love to to point this one time that see they they're doing wrong things and and it's not good and and instead of looking at the the amazing stuff that you're you know I I don't know as a as a dog trainer a lot of times people think of me as a sport trainer and all this stuff behind me but you know that's I mean I I love doing that I'm competitive person but dogs in general it's an obsession it's an obsession and you know and that's I I don't think you and I are exceptions I think there is so many people that want to be this kind of trainers and and what one of the huge barriers for them is this device this Line in the Sand it's like you know it's like where do I go if I if I even tell these people that I've been there it's already gonna blow up um and that's why we we cannot move forward we cannot learn we cannot get better we're getting better like even you know how how I don't know Susan Garrett comes to mind when she gave me the story how and and her story is a very almost a cliche story for a lot of Forestry trainers oh I have used strong color I have used chalk chain I have used electric color and now I know I can do better and what I can tell these people is that what you have done 30 years ago we are a long ways from there there is there is a a very different level of how things are done are there still people that are stuck in what was happening 30 years ago of course they are but we don't need to pay attention to those people we need to pay attention to every successful trainer regardless of where they are and what they believe in and get together come together you know that's how we get better that's why it's a you know Michael Jordan like like you me I mean I mean there is a lot of people that want that and that's kind of why I'm keep talking that there has to be somehow we have to start organizing our own conferences to where we are getting people because when we have apdt iacp and and again they I'm not against them and I'm going to be presenting again this year and I don't know exactly I'm bouncing off a couple of very interesting topics for them in my head either organization just because of the image they already have people from the other side feel uncomfortable feel unsafe to get

there and we need to find a way an opportunity to have conferences to where we can meet together regardless of the extreme um like we we have to do something because they are people they're they're the majority of people the train dogs I know that they want to learn even if and this is what I do with my school this is I think what is different with my school I I teach people there will be people that are totally force-free trainers but I can teach them what aversive training what good aversive training is about and it's your choice don't use it ever but learn what it is instead of learning from somebody telling you what it was 30 years ago you know right right I mean I think that's what's that's what's hard for me when I'm presented with some of those older studies is that also the especially when the stuff that's around punishment because it has nothing to do with what we're even dealing with or it what does that have to do with what we're doing right right and so I don't like that the being paint brushed like or what that broad stroked or whatever I it just it's very difficult it's very difficult and I think you can always you can always pull out some somebody on YouTube or Instagram or whatever does doing stupid training it's easy on both sides it's easy and sure when you use a person you're doing stupid things it's of course more inappropriate and magnetical but we need to focus on the the beauty the skill the mastering to where actually you cannot tell which one is which and and this is where Lima you know when you mentioned Lima at one point and and you what is the thing what's the new favorite coming up with now so Lima's not going to be satisfying enough because people are protesting that Lima was being um hijacked by the force-free community right as per Dr Lindsay right he's like no that's not what it says what's the new one that they've come up with again life what does that stand for that's the that's the thing that there is always a the playing with words losing an argument or if something is going a certain way then just something new pops up to try to to get that agenda regardless that's what's so frustrating to me especially from academics and scientists right I mean that that's where I'm like but those are the those are the fields that we're supposed to count on for that just core knowledge that would guide work and so then it's frustrating when you feel like but it's being presented in a manipulative way for an agenda and then that's that's where I really struggle and when you talk about Lima where I was going like you cannot talk about Lima without taking under strong consideration time how long does it take

effectiveness to what degree you you are promising a success and to where you're starting to speculate without this tool you cannot talk about Lima right and and so much we can do so much we can do um and I'm sure I'm sure right now they're they're trainers that are on both sides that would love to join our conversation because they would agree with us and at the same time I know well I don't even know if that high level like the the few extreme uh groups will will ever you know but I I don't care about them anymore like they they just they like to stay in in there they don't they they're absolutely not willing to even discuss forget about consider anything even even a conversation they're not willing to and it's sad well and also for me it comes down to like okay if so opposed to the work that we're doing then come take some of these dogs help them come take if you're so afraid that the dogs are being treated so poorly with us come get them right that would be a statement that would definitely be a statement and this is where uh you know like Daniel Mills with with you know the one Lincoln study about predation and and basically how positive reinforcement proved that they can do better than using electric colors to stop oh yeah [Music] right there's so many questions to ask there like if you if you just say believe me is true we did a study but not come to to talk about that like yeah how how how can I yeah I mean yeah it's really frustrating and again you know I think I think we've talked about it I think we're kind of going round around about that one particular point but I think if we talk about the nitty-gritty of Dr Proto Popova did you know she was very kind you know also everybody when I was up there you know people that knew me well enough know knew about losing my son and so obviously it was like oh please don't because then I'm just gonna cry and but um at any rate she was she was just really sweet because she she just reinforced she said I think what's so important about the work that you're doing or that that is that or what people need to be considering when they're when they're thinking about the work that you're doing is the context and taking things into context right because you're in the right place like your heart is in the right place like you're not doing this for any other reason um and and if if somebody can help you to do it better come forward help yeah yeah you're more more than welcome more than welcome I'll never forget with Cooley when he was um I was doing agility with him we weren't that great I mean he got basic titles but um I remember when I was trying to get him to send away from

me a little bit and while he was helping me and he was suggesting this is what I think you need to put a little bit more pressure on him and this is you know I can't remember the details of the exercise but it revolved around putting a little bit more pressure on him and I you know that night I was thinking about it I thought you know Cooley doesn't love agility it's just a hobby that I have and he's my dog and so he kind of does it to you know dork around with me but I it wasn't a passion of foolies right he was doing it for me and I thought in that context like I don't need to put more pressure on him for this you know right it just because it doesn't he doesn't need to do this right so it's like sometimes I feel like saying to people like I can be a real um softy about certain things but when I'm talking about a dog that is if I cannot help you decide to do something else instead of what you're doing right now you're gonna be dead and I don't what you know what I hate about remote the remote collar arguments are when so many people say to us well Amy again that they won't say this publicly I've also had plenty of those experiences that very well credentialed people will have reasonable conversations with me privately and offline but they won't present those positions publicly and um I've been told over and over again you know listen we understand you using aversives or you using remote callers or you using whatever because we know we have faith in your application and your skill set and your conscientiousness around it your sensitivity to the dog's experience all these things but I'm just you know do not believe that this is possible for other people and then what's crazy to me is most of these people are legitimately Educators right so this is what I think is Educators we have a responsibility if you feel like somebody is going to do something poorly it's our responsibility to teach them how to not do that poorly right rather than saying well maybe these five people can do this adequately and well and reap the benefits of it whatever it might be but these 500 people are going to bungle it whatever it might be therefore we're not going to allow these five can't do it either right it just it's just not it just doesn't seem logical to me I think that as Educators we have a responsibility to teach people how to do it well rather than say let's put it away or sweep it under the rug or pretend it doesn't exist or ban it or do whatever it just I don't think that that makes anything improve anything I don't I don't even care what we're talking about whatever the it might be very true very true that's uh I mean it for some reason

nobody is paying attention or don't want to pay attention and I keep saying it almost every time I talk about this topic Europe is such a good example of how you can put legislations and bans and you're solving nothing it just makes you feel good at the moment that okay we we won this battle and um I think it was Nick Bellinger we had a conversation with him it's like no I I know how many colors are still sold there I know trainers that use it I know that when you talk to them they will tell you different when I talk to them they are feeling open to talk about it it is there trust me you you have not the ban is not a solution it never it never has been like in never in history anything has been successful like that and and yeah do we regulate it do we not regulate it I think these are different conversation I think bottom line is that we can we have to come together we have to talk we have to educate if you are a force-free trainer and you have spent so much time to master because not so many have mastered right reinforcement positive reinforcement not no it like by no means like like when just because somebody went to to ipdt conferences went to few webinars and wrote down bunch of secret words to get uh credits for for their continuing education it does not make you a capable Hands-On trainer that you understand what you're doing but the ones that do they they already know even if they don't want to know they already know the foundation of how aversive would work simply because they know how reinforcement Works anyway but troubling me about about certification I swear that I was never going to certify dpfl handlers in other words like you have you're certified as that because I thought there is room once we teach play groups let's say we know that there's room to personalize it and that you will morph it a little bit into something that is going to work for you so and we've seen in Animal Welfare specifically even when you get into an intra tester inter and intra tester uh reliability and lack thereof for like the behavior assessments and all this stuff I mean we've learned over and over again when you try to say we have trained you in this and I don't know how how because I know you're certifying your trainers but your school is very comprehensive right it's a whole different ball game but I'm curious too for you over time like how many students do you feel like okay these students are really maintaining with Integrity like I feel like these students would be a good solid representation like I know I've had plenty of people that have worked for us or that we've trained and that I feel like that is not what I taught you to do

about certification is that the certified certified trainers that I have met I don't care what letters you have have after your name and some people can talk in an amazing game like they know their stuff and then I'll see them with a dog in hand yeah and I'm like it is so uninspiring so the problem that I'm having is certification is not giving me I love it in concept I think that having trainers not just not have it just be a shingle hanging thing that anybody can do it and take money which is the way it is right now I think there should be something that right that regulates it or at least sets a standard but I'm just not at all convinced about any of the certifications I keep saying I'm going to go get certified by the iacp to support that organization and I keep just not taking the time to do it but I don't know what are you you know I know you've talked about certification before but it's concerning to me yeah I'm certified by who so the the way I like I mean I I speak for my school my my goal with certification is if somebody certifies I want to make sure that they understand the concepts of what what I teach and what I get certified are they gonna ever use that that's up to them now I know their schools especially on the Fourth Street side like like you know web camera mirrors to cover Karen priors and Jane Donaldson Academy and whatever they they actually you cannot certify unless you convert oh yeah you have to take a purity pledge like all right and I I I I think that's a that's a wrong approach I think it's not the American way you you can you should be able to go and learn and if you understand that then you can prove that you understand it and you choose not to they're two different things to me and with certification [Music] looking in a much bigger picture like I can tell you from examples from different uh in Europe Europe Germans you know there is like few countries that have very long tradition of working dogs so any kind of working dogs not just German Shepherds and but hunting and whatever and and they would have tests like trying to create this ultimate dog so there will be a certain criteria for breeding so in German will be like the CTP and the kyotung and the checks and like oh all kind of big countries that are into dogs they have this breeding criterias to develop and maintain certain qualities and they all start with very good intentions and then things change and the way things change with this kind of stuff is when the the person that designed it stepped down and now a new person came in as the new person comes in there is a new vision and new construct and so with certification

like let's say you and I designed a certification We're not gonna be here forever certifying people somebody else gonna take over and whenever that somebody else they cover what's going to be certified it most likely will be very different and this is good and bad because um you can maintain the vision or you can change it to your liking not necessarily the the ultimate uh interest to the breed or the training concept or whatever but to your liking and this is the dangerous part and I think the something like the James Donaldson school is a good example of that it's like no you have to throw the wrong color an electric color away and it's the only way that you can move forward right um and this is this is my my it's a big concern and I I don't think I have a solution or an idea how to go but um one day I'm like yeah maybe we should look into certification and another day I'm like well once we start certifying then then the criteria keeps changing and which way it's Gonna Change we will not have control anymore what I'm saying and certified by home right so I you know I think it's much easier if we focus on a person like like one thing that we can easily do right now is we we look at somebody that is clearly abusing dogs and it's not even just it actually Animal Care and police I mean he it's a some some criminal offense at that point they should not be able to train dogs anymore like we can start with something like that I think we need to focus on individuals than trying to just like with driving cars you know you drink and you hit somebody and that person's dead and you will pay a consequence for that but I will not pay a consequence because I'm also driving right I I really think that yeah it's a I I don't know what do you think well so Wendy gohart have you met Wendy bullhorn yeah yeah it's a long time yeah um she gave me advice years ago and she said don't you dare go get certified now because once you become part of there's it will box you in in some way shape or form because you've now prescribed this or whatever she said and you're already established enough and you're doing your work and your work is measured so don't do it now your your train is too far down the tracks uh you're better off you're more free to work the way that you want to work and and you're doing good work so keep it up and then I'm trying to remember who doctor or there's another Veterinary behaviorist I think God I cannot remember who it is it's terrible anyway she said you know Amy you're going to be taking a lot more seriously if you actually just go and get yourself certified like you are smarter critical thinker you're smarter than a lot of you

understand all this stuff even though you're self-taught in all of it whatever that you are solid just go take the test get yourself certified because then you can step into the arena where right now they won't let you in and you have important stuff that you should be sharing and but you're not going to be taken seriously when you don't have those certifications and so really polar opposite um advice what would you advise that I do certify or don't certify yeah I I yeah it's a tough one very very tough one again like thinking about my school and again like what I'm certifying is about you're proving that you understand what I'm teaching you but that's that's as far as it goes and and if somebody comes to you to train to train their dog with you it's your choice and I hope that you make it clear to the person that comes to you that you're training the way you decide to train now if somebody comes to you and says hey I want to my dog I want to use as much as possible training without conflict I once methodology then I hope that that's what you will do because they're coming to you knowing that you have certified But ultimately it is up to you to choose what where where you want to go like I guess you're the answer then is like the truth is we can't control these things right right and you know and we always say is that you know what's that old saying it's not the tool it's the fool right so you're talking about people that have the inclination to be abusive or people that have the inclination to be abusive right and I think that that's no matter what tool they have in hand like we've all had those heard those conversations before and everything too I think that the the concept that we are going to be able to control I mean I don't think you and I are looking to control anything but I feel like people are looking to control me right right through these processes and I'm just like I I just don't I don't even think even if I believe in why they want to do that I don't know why they think that it's actually going to solve a problem again and now I think we're talking in circles and I think that you know and I've heard you have this same conversation with many of your guests right so I I in the end I think when we're talking about helping dogs whether you're professionally training or whether you're working in the Sheltering World whether you're competing in an enthusiast you know one of my I just raised my kids do the best you can every day of your life don't don't benefit at the expense of others that's the bottom line just why don't we just you know that old saying that everything that in life everything

I need to know in life I learned in kindergarten remember those kind of sometimes I do think we're just all trying to make it too complicated and when people do bad things yes people that behave badly shouldn't get what they want but guess what children that behave badly shouldn't get what they want dogs that behave badly shouldn't get with them you know I just feel like it's it's just not that complicated and I feel like you know nice good positive civil Behavior should be very well reinforced like if we focus on something I mean like really certification how about how about the people that are clearly not supposed to have dogs forget about it yeah I mean forget what their doing with the dog what colors they're using it just unfit person to own a dog because right endless reasons for it right right that that's I think a priority to figure it out but we we just like with the legislation with the electrical also it's a feel good and it's a oh yeah let's go after something how about we try to think about how can we create something where it's like okay maybe past certain tests like you saw the the latest uh in Texas the little duchy that um died in a kennel in Texas a few days ago I didn't see that what's that about so the guy sends two dogs for training pays 15 000. the dog dies in the kennel take him to the vet he does autopsy extreme dehydration blisters like like blisters like wounds on the feet like the dog has been sitting in a concrete Under the Sun cooking this is what we need to focus on like there is there is actual serious issues that we can focus on that's so sad yeah I mean yeah that's what this every once in a while I'll be scrolling and I get very sensitive there's certain things that will bog me down they shouldn't be able to move now to a different town or different state and open a new new business with new name they should not okay so this this comes down to though enforcement you know and when you talk about even in again just my world is animal Sheltering right so a lot of communities animal control agencies are trying to change from a punitive model to an educational model right instead of being the one that's going to show up with a ticket instead I'm going to show up with your dog that I found wandering and talk to you about licensing and have a conversation with you and educate you about microchipping or are there resources that we can provide so that the the fence is fixed or whatever right so a lot of agencies are trying to move to um resource provision and support and education than enforcement right um like a lot of a lot of them are changing their names from animal care

and control to animal just Animal Care Centers or Resource Centers or and so we know and I do like those trends like I do absolutely think of instead of everything just being which I guess that's the human version of uh compulsion system versus a reward-based system right that's even from humans to humans so I think but what I would say is exactly the same thing there's stuff in between there there must be consequences for bad decisions that negatively impact others like there's there has to be but yes it's much better if we can Inspire that person that might be inclined to doing something that is harmful to another it would be nice to have intervention and teach them about alternatives for their frustration for their whatever it might be right it's the same thing but so whenever we come down to like even with people we can't we can't I don't want it at all to be about you know but you've made a mistake and now you know you're locking you up we've got to you know it's all just complicated you know it just comes down it is complicated super complicated so we we are just a [ __ ] up Species right right and we're the ones that make a mess of everything like I guess yeah it's all it just uh sometimes the the way today's marketing is and and it's a well you know trying to make crazy you keep using the word influencer like I'm um I have a no selfie policy with my company so that when everybody's out because it was driving me crazy where I had staff that were on gigs and everything and they're doing these selfies about them and then kind of you know I'm like you're this is about the work and about the animals that's what this is about you know so that's kind of that's exactly that okay so do you that that's that's what I'm talking about that's exactly it it's like a even even you know even again like all the the YouTube influencer they're not they're not there to teach and help dogs it's it's about me getting likes and getting which which is nothing wrong with that but if you're not taking it seriously that sometimes you cannot help you just don't have the knowledge or you're stuck and and you you there is no one of those people on YouTube not one that has ever said you know what that's about me I don't know what to do with that case you should I I it would be wrong for me to give you an advice right now there is no one time I have seen and I'm telling you I've watched them because they're entertaining to me that's that's a problem I do and I think that again I think we're talking about it's come into our world of training that's a bigger societal problem that we're facing right now and I think that um

yeah I think that's a bigger societal problem and I there's something else I was missing we're talking about influencers and the no selfie policy and no selfie policy I love it yeah I mean I want I want I want my staff to have pictures of them with their dogs but you know what I'm talking about I know exactly I wish that I I wish that because there there are some that I've used because they're super cute and they were done in the spirit of the dog and I together and it really did look about like it was about a moment for the dog actually even my even my photograph that is my um that's on my my bio and everything that was actually me taking a selfie right the reason being is I was trying to promote that dog and it just it was a great picture because the dog looks like he's looking at me and so so I even use one so I'm such a hypocrite because my my whatever my main picture that I use there is meeting you something right but but you know what I was trying to get at is that I had some of the staff that it was like you are distracted by your need to create good posts for yourself you're distracted from the focus of the of the work I know what I was gonna say is that even with my with the team the trainers that I have lately one of these phrases that I keep coming up with and it talked about human psychology and everything step two is that sometimes when they were coaching each other or they would be regard talking about the dogs they would say well they just need to build their confidence right and I finally started saying wait a minute let's think about it this way how about if you want to feel better do better that's why we try to teach essential skills for a life fulfilled so if you want that person or that dog to boost their confidence teach them a skill don't try to work so hard to make them feel better so that then they can actually why don't you try flipping that but that's not the way our world is going not today he's telling us well awesome talking about it in America right now right like if we were living in the world it really is the world right so everybody and this is the thing about our species this and I and I have a hard stop in 12 minutes because I have to pick up my stepson but I think as as a species human beings right now we are so freaking self-absorbed everything is so focused on my experience how I feel my perspective everything and I think gosh if we could just turn things back out and look at that's why with my my staff and everybody's like I'm having a bad day or I'm feeling emotional I'm feeling this I'm like well go do something that will that you will can accomplish right go

accomplish something do an act or learn a skill or do something and guess what you'll probably end up feeling better right yeah I mean I tell you people sometimes they're like well they don't even know I'm training pet dogs like they don't know because if you if you have to chase this perfect shot that you have in your head that needs to come out and you have a dog that's like X number of weeks for you in training but you're actually not spending time to teach and work with the dog but you're chasing this interesting video to get likes and clicks yeah that's a huge problem where we are yes I agree I agree I agree and you know again you've met you've met our you know you've met our team and there's been some changes since you've been there so I think every time you come there's probably a couple of new people there's some that you've probably seen every single time that you've been there but I'm telling you what I think is really impressive about the team is that they are working some gnarly dogs and these are some young kids and they are relatively green and we are somehow managing them and managing to teach them to do something effective that is really causing some Behavior change and so what is that it's not me you know and by the way what I what I always tell people is that and and because you know especially after losing well and that that team's been holding it together without me there like I was there before but um I always tell people I think I'm a pretty accomplished trainer I've accomplished some things this dog's playing for Life thing has become pretty cool but I'm not doing anything new I have not invented anything everything that we pull from all the good trainers it's just that we still have there's these core foundational things and it just depends upon how you choose to put it together and then what your Mastery is in delivering that to people or to animals but I mean I am so sick and tired of people trying to come up with something that makes them relevant I mean again get some good freaking work done that creates relevance that's great relevance Amy I know you've got a goal tell me I really want to make sure that people know how they can help dogs pray play for life like any any kind of donations where I'm gonna put it in the in the uh description on the podcast but uh I I need you to to talk a little bit about that because that's important your non-profit you you you need you need the support for sure and and everybody that has listened to you and like what you are and what you are doing they need to know how they can help yeah I mean definitely we could really use some donations and support right now you

can do that through our website it's dogs playing for life all spelled out.com or dot org we'll get you there and the Really thing that I'd like to share with your audience that I think will be poignant for your audience in particular is that we do have very generous funders that support the aspect of our programs where we go into the shelters and we we teach them how to improve the experience and quality of life for the shelter dogs and just in my last little thing about that is I've always believed that when you improve quality of life you're going to get life-saving and one of the things that's been going wrong in animal Sheltering is we've been so focused on saving lives alone that animals have ended up kind of warehousing their needs aren't met and then that's where we end up the driving them crazy thing in the name of Sheltering them but our Canine Center Florida where I have the privilege of working with you and that you seem to be in support of the work and the our efforts there we have zero funding there zero support and you know why that is because of everything that we've talked about today and because of the resistance to fund something that is not politically correct and force-free and under that umbrella and I've always maintained our integrity and always told the truth that we are in all tools and techniques program because we want to reach as many dogs as possible and that being honest and open about that and transparent about that is our biggest obstacle and why that critical program has not received it has not received the funding that we received you know it's it seems like such an obvious to people yeah get the dogs out let them play it's it's a real feel good and it's you know people love that and so we have we have very generous support there but um all of this really the efforts that we've been put in been putting in to really becoming sophisticated sophisticated about helping me because it's going to we've got a long wait list there is a need we did a survey of the shelters that we've worked with with the enrichment um programming within seminars and everything and we asked them if you had a place to send your behaviorally challenged dogs would you and it was over 80 say yes there's a need and we would like it and then it was in combination I think uh most of them said but we don't have the funding for it and some said that we did but it was a high percentage I think it's between 70 to 80 percent said yes we would like a place for that to happen and I always I did Envision that we should have these Regional Behavior Centers because I was in two brick and mortar shelters that were adoption centers

trying to help the dogs and seeing as as our thresholds kept we were expanding like At first we were just saving these and then well hey now we've got that kind of now we're rocking and rolling and that's pretty easy what's the next level of behavior that we can work with and save and then we it just kept increasing and there got there came a point where I felt like I think I could reach a next population of dogs if there was a dedicated space for them to go where we could really meet their needs and you've seen our facilities beautiful then that came along and it got donated and then then we were off and running but all along I knew that we were gonna that ten years ago I knew what was going to happen that we were going to end up the dogs that were going to remain in brick and mortar shelters would be larger dogs that were struggling more behaviorally because all the low-hanging fruit is going to end up being safe pretty soon so we are going to I think that as an industry we need to up up our game so while the core enrichment programming we will never stop teaching that and that is so important these the concept of these centers that will be more comprehensive and more sophisticated in their approach and not handicapping themselves by trying to adhere to one ideology over another it's going to be really critical if we really want to if we really want to kind of finish this right you know and become like why in the United States should our animals our companion animals be languishing in these tough conditions why is that happening in this day and age in this country right so we need help if the Canine Center is going to stay open and if we're gonna build out more and if we have opportunities to train more people we do need support because that aspect is uh pretty dry for us well hopefully hopefully um that that helps some might not you know you have my me at any time with anything I can help but hopefully anybody that can chip in um it doesn't matter where you are and what you can afford but help is definitely needed so please if you if you can that's that's a place where uh you know your money will get to be used for a very good cause so um I mean thank you thank you for for coming to the podcast and um as I said we will believe you invited me it's crazy thank you with the people that you have on this thing I'm like how do I get to sit here too we it's been long overdue actually it's been on my mind and um because we always talk we always talk and we unlock people would like to hear what we talk about you know um but anyway in the next few days we're gonna connect and uh work some Logistics of of my plan that I

was telling you about this okay that collaboration I'm gonna be on the ground again I've got a couple of dogs if you've got the room to see us we'd love to pile some people and dogs down whatever makes it whatever makes it doable for you you are always welcome to come to us but of course we're always willing to come to you if you can give us okay yeah I'm I'm like in the next month or so I'm totally free I I had this workshops I had uh certification weekend I had I had a lot going on in the next couple of days I'm grading the the tests so that that but that will be done and then definitely let's go let's go okay and then maybe we'll have something really like a really interesting case study that then you can share with everybody again now you really know I cannot say it all right yeah exactly thank you sir all right beautiful conversation thank you [Music]