에피소드 75: Aivo Oblikas

And hopefully it's getting to this direction that for IGP people very often the tracking is a little bit boring. So I hope that I can inspire people a little bit to get more sugar and spice from the tracking. So I'm very, very much pleased to speak about tracking. We can discuss about IGP and so on about the sport. But now I tell a little bit about myself. Yes, yes. I know you have an interesting story, how you got into the dogs and everything. So I started as a helper in the middle of nineties. And the funny thing, how I started was that I had those days, Dobermans and the Estonian Dobermans Association organized IGP seminar here with Finland. And I was the only man participating in the seminar. All the rest were women handlers and Finnish teachers and trainers made a present to Estonian Dobermans Association. They brought a sleeve and some training stuff to train bite work. And then they wanted to make a photo for the magazine that someone from Estonia has the sleeve. And as I was only men, they gave the sleeve to me that now you should look like a helper. And somehow it moved to this direction that I put the sleeve on. And then women started to discuss that maybe you won't get it off. So maybe you would start to train and so on. So for me, it was very interesting because earlier times I was doing track and field sport. And I just finished this sport because I had quite bad injury. And so I had free time and space to start something. And so the dog sport was very perfect for this. I mean, I started step by step. I had a lot of help from Finland and Sweden, people coming to Estonia, making seminars and so on. And in the beginning, I was training as a helper. I mean, I did a long time just helper work. But then I started to look that if I train bite work, but obedience and tracking is not such a level, but there should be. There is no idea to train just bite work because you have to have all three disciplines. And so I started also to train people tracking and obedience. And I would say so that I have been competing by myself with several dogs. But the beside of this, I have had all the time quite big training groups. So it has been like about 14, 15 dogs. I have been training all three disciplines now for a little bit over than 30 years. So I have every day, every week, like two days or three days in the evening or Saturday, Sunday. I train dogs because I have my work during the day. So it's the dog sport is a hobby for me. And I think that as a charge, it gives me so much practical point of view because I train dogs. You know, I can have the touch. I mean, to the discipline.

I think that this is very much important for the charges. Concerning the tracking. It is a funny story. When I make seminars, I always tell this because I think that it could motivate people to train tracking. And it is so that with my first Doberman, I succeeded in tracking quite nice. I got points over the 90 and I was very self-confident. And then I took the puppy from my own breeding. And I started to train the dog for the, to go to the world championships. And those days I was doing a lot obedience tracking. I do it left and right, left and right. And so on. My dog was very, very good in the legs, but I messed up in the corner. I did something wrong. I built up the conflict in the corner. And the funny thing is that I failed like everywhere. I failed in IGP-1, those days IPO-1. I got the result just in the third start. So I got the result in bite work and obedience, but I failed the tracking. Failed second time. Third time I got the result. Then I moved to IPO-2. I failed again. And then I got the result the second time. And then I moved to IPO-3 and I failed in tracking eight times a row. That's when most people will stop. Yeah, exactly. It was so that my dog always went until the first corner and then the self-confidence somehow got so badly hidden because he was stressed in the corner. He came back and it finished. And then I have a lot of good people who said that put the sleeve to the end, put a lot of toys to the track and so on. In the training, everything was perfect. He was doing so nice track and going again to the competition. Again, 13 points and go home. And on the last competition, I had 93 in obedience and 94 in the bite work. And the funny thing was that I took a suit with me. I was like tie and suit. And I said to my wife that I have a feeling that now I will go and I get the result. I had a suit with me and I failed in the tracking. I got again something like 14 points or 20 points and that's it. And as I had a suit, I did a B and C with the suit. So I have fancy photos from 20 years ago when I was doing, you know, back transport looks a little bit like FBI. You know, there is a prisoner in the front and you have your suit, black suit and you're walking with Obermann behind. So it was very much fancy. My idea was that I thought that I would like to celebrate if I get the result. So I had the suit, but I didn't get the result. So I was driving home and I said to my wife that that's it. I will finish now. I just can't go on because it's too much failing. And my wife said that it would be fun for you if you find a solution.

I mean, for you as a trainer, it would be very much educational if you find a solution. And, you know, at this point I had trained dogs for tracking for 10 years. And it was first time when I started to think about what I do in tracking. And basically I changed totally the approach. I mean, I started to see the tracking totally opposite than most people see it. And then I started to build up my system and I was doing next start in two months. I got results here in Estonia and German Shepherd Championships. I went next spring to Obermann World Championships. We have a winter, so basically we couldn't train the dog for five months. So basically after two months training, I got in Obermann Championships, Swift best result in the tracking and all totally 10th place in the World Championships. So basically the thing I changed, I just changed the approach and everything started to be totally different. So I always say to the people that if you have the wrong point of view or wrong approach and everything looks not so perfect, it's good to sit down and a little bit analyze what you can do differently. Or basically you need to understand what you are doing in the field. And in my opinion, a lot of IGP people training the tracking so that they don't have very good understanding what they are doing there. So they are doing something, but they are not clearly understanding what they are doing. Do you, to back up a little bit when you mentioned how most IGP trainers look at tracking as far as being more of a, like obedience structured versus the way you look at tracking right now. Let's, let's talk a little bit about this because it's a, I guess that's probably where we, we should start. Um, because definitely there is two, two very different approaches, how we look at tracking, right? And I, and I think also depends to some extent on the dog and, and how much natural ability a dog can have. And we can argue that every dog should be able to do the simple footstep, follow a track because their nose is just exceptional. But when you, when you say that, um, there is a people, people look at tracking as an obedience in some way. Tell, tell us a little bit more about this, uh, the, the differences of style of, and a way of thinking and so on. Uh, for me, it was a little bit like, so that, uh, if we speak about the nose of dog, of dog, uh, it's crazy that the dog can smell the finger, fingerprint from the glass. The handler has been drinking wine. There is a fingertip in the glass and dog can smell it after six weeks. Yes.

So if we think this idea, the IGP-1 or IGP-3 or even FH, it is so, so easy for the dog. I mean, the nose has so much more capability than we use. And, uh, the thing, what I think people are doing wrong is that, uh, people like to train obedience and bite work, uh, because they understand what they are training. I mean, if you say to the dog sit and you see that the dog is sitting, you understand that the dog is sitting. Uh, if you give in bite work, the house command, uh, you also see that the dog is making out. So, uh, it's very black and white. Uh, when you train the dog in the tracking, uh, I would say not a single person can see. Does the dog track or does the dog not track? I mean, uh, if the dog is moving by the track, we assume that the dog is tracking, but we don't know. Does the dog really track? So, uh, in my opinion, if we force the dog in the tracking fields to obedience, to left and right obedience, there is a huge risk that, uh, we build up the model for the dog. That, uh, he understands if he makes left and right, we gave positive feedback. He, he could make the left and right without using the nose at all and getting positive feedback for this. So basically we are training a little bit for the dogs, like sit and lay down, but on the tracking fields and giving for the action, the feedback that. He's correct. Uh, I train more the attitude. Uh, I, uh, give positive feedback. If the dog has correct state of mind in the tracking and the correct state of mind means that the dog wants to track and he takes care of the track. I always say that if you basically have the diamond ring and you put the diamond ring to the drawer somewhere, you always know where is the diamond ring. Uh, I want that the track is for the dog, the diamond ring. Uh, I want that the track is for the dog, the diamond ring. So when I start with the puppy, uh, I think that this is the same, like obedience, that if the dog use the nose in the natural way, he won't make left and right tracking. Like we would like to see in our discipline. So I introduced the tracking for the puppy from left to right. So I introduced that. This is the thing I want to see. And then the puppy understands. Okay. This is what we need to do. And then the handler is happy. And, uh, that we can call the model. And the model means that there is a certain kind of grass. There is left and right steps. There is some food. And probably when we teach the puppy, we also give some signals for the puppy with leash. We either give corrections, we give positive, whatever.

That means that there is a huge risk that in this model, puppy starts to understand that he needs to take signals from us. To listen to you more than. Or listen to us and make the left right thing because then we are happy. So, uh, I try to move out from this model as fast as possible. And, uh, usually say also to people, when we discuss about tracking, that there is one thing that you need to understand. That, uh, in the nature, if we take wolves or bears or whatever, track means that someone has been going somewhere, walking. That means that if we start from the grass, we go to the road, we go to the black ground. There is always the track. I mean, for dog, the model should be the person who has been walking. So there is always the track, not the model, but we are doing in the nice field all the time, same way. Mm-hmm . Because if we make very much the same model, we modelize the dog to work in the certain surface in the certain way. But if the dog drops out of this model, he don't have any ability because there has been not existing this thing in the model. So this is the thing that if we train sit and lay down and the dog makes strong and beautiful sit, for example, and then we gave, uh, give command cheer. Dog won't do anything because this is a new thing. Even he has so good connection, even he has so good motivation, but he won't do anything. And this is the risk. If we all the time make the same model, that when we move out the model, then the dog don't understand that, that this is also tracking. Because we have trained very much the same box and giving good feedback. This is what I think differently. I always say to the people that track is just a track. And this is how we should get it. Track is going anywhere. Track is going through forest. Track is going through grass, wherever. Track is everywhere. When we walk, when we run, when we jump, this is all track. And that's why I train a lot, such a, uh, how to say, I, I build up the stress in the tracking for the dog in the same way, how it can happen in the nature. That, uh, whatever can be in the, in the way there can be river. There can be someone standing on the track, whatever, because there is always the track. And that means that if this kind of dog, drop, drops out of the model, uh, he won't be messed up in the head because he wants to track the track. Not that he's somewhere. He don't know, know what to do. And this is the difference. I mean, I can, uh, speak a lot about what I train and how to train, but, but this is like the basic.

Uh, I always say to the people that, uh, if you make retrieve, uh, in the obedience, you have just in one exercise, you have about 10 exercises. You have basic position. You have getting the speed. You have taking the upward, you have turning, taking the speed, moving, taking the front position. So just in one exercise, there is 10 exercises and you have all together 10 different exercises. There is a huge amount of exercises, but in tracking, there is just one exercise. So basically in my mind, the tracking can't be so complicated. The tracking is the easiest part of the IGP because there is just one exercise you need to train. The thing that makes it complicated is that people want to see black and white obedience. They want to see what the dog is doing. Uh, but they can't understand. Does the dog track or does he just move around? Right. This is the deal. So in tracking people need a little bit better, uh, dog reading knowledge because they can't read the black and white thing. They need to read, does the dog track. So basically I train it so that if there will be mistakes, I always build the mistake as big as possible. Because then I can be sure that the dog is not tracking. I mean, if the dog is speeding in the track, uh, let's say, so we start with the puppy. Puppy moves on. He gets all the time food. He moves on. He gets a move again food. We say very good, nicely done. So we train the puppy that if you smell the track, you need to move on. Isn't it so? This is what we are telling to our dog. Now there will be higher grass. Uh, and there will be a lot of smell. And if the dog is not taking every step, but he's moving fast by the line, then basically in dog idea or dog head, he's also tracking. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If we say to the dog that, uh, this is not okay. Then we build huge conflict because we have said to the dog that if you are tracking, then we are happy. Now the dog is tracking in his head, but we say, this is not okay. That means that at this moment, when the dog starts to speed and we make correction, there is a huge, uh, possibility that we build up conflict because the dog is tracking. We say no and dog don't know what to do. And if we make in this moment, some help, give again, command or help with the leash, we teach to the dog that if you have problems, I will help you. And this will be like the second problem. Then the thing that I do, I train it so that if the dog is moving too fast, I build over there a trap. I make the track in this way that if he's speeding, he can't manage. So if he gets off the track, I correct.

And the dog understands that he gets the correction because he was not on the track. So I don't take the risk that I build up the conflict. Do you understand? It's a little bit like complicated, different. So would you, I'll, I'll back up a little bit too. Yeah. Basically the, I mean, many, many trainers, when, when they teach tracking, they focus right away on this kind of very artificial orchestrated, like really, I would say forcing the dog, but not necessarily forcing like how some people would think about forcing, but really making it as an obligation. That this is what you exactly what you need to do and nothing else you're allowed. So they develop a behavior in the dog. But because of so much structure, the dog doesn't ever feel the freedom to actually track. And it's, it's, it's that obligation that you want me, you want to see the specific behaviors, how I move on the track, but not necessarily allow me to track. And, and I, I can see how this, um, um, gets reinforced also by judges often. Um, maybe, um, maybe not all judges, but for sure they are judges that will, uh, be very focused when they give the points and the critique on, they have a certain style of track that they want to see. And, um, that it's almost, if the dog tracks with great enthusiasm, but it doesn't show that specific style, they get penalized. Maybe not too much, but they get penalized. And that makes a lot of trainers to say, okay, then we have to make it orchestrated. And it has to look like this, this kind of robotic behavior that almost doesn't have purpose behind. And I guess my question for you, how do you, I mean, you kind of explain it to me and, and we, you and I have talked extensively about tracking and, uh, I, I did need help at some point. And, and, and, you know, I got stuck with, with my last dog here. Uh, but there is that fine line between, you know, somebody spending a lot of time and not understanding how much freedom a dog should have. Should it have freedom? Should we allow the dog to do it in their own style? Or should we really influence very hard how they should look? Um, and, and then of course we have, you know, the, the risk of somebody putting a lot of time in tracking and believing that, okay, I really have to make sure. And I don't care that it's discipline and obedience, but I have to make sure that I will spend all this money and go to a championship and I need to pass.

And I think that way of thinking makes trainers believe that that more of a disciplined, obedient style somehow will bring more security in, in getting the points. However, even, even at the world championship that we just bought came from the FMBB, we saw many, many, many dogs that crumbled very quickly because the dis, well, you, I, I will be curious to hear what you think about it. But I believe it's because they, they couldn't manage it by pure obedience and discipline. And they had to actually put the enthusiasm and really the, the freedom to use their nose. And they couldn't, they, they felt that they cannot do that because they're not really ever trained that way. But how do you put the two together to where it's not so much obedience and discipline, but there has to be some, you're, you're teaching the dog to be responsible, as you said. And you're doing it much more by the way you set up every truck. And, and it's like, I always said, like, it's like a trucking. It's like a chess game, like you, your move is when you lay the truck, then the dog's move is working the truck. And now you have the next move. And that is how you're going to lay the next truck. And that's how you build a good dog. But for me, it's like playing a chess. I, I, I always trained during the tracking. So that it's like living organism. I mean, I make a drawing, I make it so that I place the food in the very certain places. And when I see how the dog is tracking, then I start to build up some things to, to build the dog stronger. But I come back to your first question concerning the, what Sam Sarge is saying and concerning the differences in the tracking style. I would say so that me as a charge, I'm charging in the basis of FCI rules. I need to charge in basis of FCI rules. And in FCI rules, it said that the dog needs to track step by step. He needs to take the steps with power, with self-confidence, be concentrated. And, and all the other good things. So basically this is said in the rules. So in my opinion, if there is obedience built dog, who is very well built up, he's showing 100 points track. Having all these elements inside. I have just as an example. I have from my group, one dog. I built up from the pub page totally from the zero who got two years ago in Croatia in FCI IGP championships, 100 points. Like best track in quite difficult fields. And this dog had the same step by step, had self-confidence, had power. So it had all the same things, but the people who are training obedience track having. So in my opinion, the difference is not how the track is looking like.

Like now in FNBB, in certain parts, the track was very much seeable by the eyes. And some dogs just moved like by the line. They didn't take left and right, but they moved by the track by the line. So they got less points because in our rules, it's said that there is 600 steps. That means that the dog needs to take 600 steps, not about that. He needs to go by the line and take just two steps. I mean, this is the thing. So basically I agree that there is no difference. You train step by step with obedience or step by step in other approach, but it needs to be step by step with power, with good concentration, with nice drive, in good balance, in good cooperation and so on. So everything should be in there. But in obedience training tracking, there is a huge risk that we give the positive feedback, not for the tracking, but for the obedience. And this is the wrong thing. I mean, if the dog is making strongly sit, he looks very self-confident. And if he makes the tracking same way, this is like sit exercise. He makes it self-confident with nice power. Everything's perfect. But if the tracking is not inside of this and he gets out of the track, then he don't have any capability to solve the problem because he has never been teached to track. This is the thing, you know. So basically I don't say that obedience kind of tracking is bad, but there must be also the tracking inside, not just obedience. Because if the dog makes obedience and he will be out of the track, he will be like some machine. You take the socket out from the electrics and he just stops because there is no electrics anymore. So this is the thing, or I would say, this is the difference of the approach. So basically when I train the dog, I also train because of this in the puppy age, the left and right, because we need in our discipline, the left and right. But I build the power, the drive and self-confidence up on the basis that the dog understands that if he tracks in a certain way, he feels better. And if he doesn't track in a certain way, there will be problems. And then during the trainings, he gets more self-confident, more self-confident. And self-confidence always brings the power. It always brings the drive. And the dog starts to make left and right very strong, with nice power. Even we have not been doing much obedience left and right. This is like a little bit like coming to the same street from the opposite side. What do you think was at the FNBB? I mean, quite a few dogs couldn't make it. And I'm sure there was different reasons, but you were on the field every day and you were giving the points. What did you see?

Because it cannot be just one problem. I mean, I'm assuming different dogs had different reasons. And like when you are evaluating and you're walking right there, what do you see in what are the different reasons? I should put it this way. That dogs you saw that just gave up or got lost or. First of all, I must say that if we look at the statistics, this is not just about this FNBB. If we look at FCI World Championships for past years, there is also quite a big percentage of failure. And this is the same also in several FNBBs. So basically, if we look at the statistics, there is always some dogs who won't get result in obedience, but there is maybe three dogs, five dogs, something like this maximum. There are some dogs who get terminated or disqualified in bite work, but this number is also very small. And in tracking, there is mostly 25 to 30% of the dogs who fail. So this is not about this year FNBB, but this has been already like some years. And in my opinion, it started to come up when the bigger competition started to be more done in the normal way. Earlier, there was a long period when in the competitions, the tracks were hit very strong. So the track was so easy that I could track without the dog. And if you have such a highway, all the obedience trained dogs show excellent results and they look very strong because they never get lost of the highway because it's so deeply put in that there is no way to get out even. So there was a long period when all the bigger competitions were made like this. And in my opinion, this was a huge mistake because earlier before this, I think that there was much more know how about tracking in the world. But this period cleaned this know how out because to succeed, you needed obedience in the tracking field because all the competitions were made quite in the same way. Then they started to change this approach. And now I would say that most of the FCI World Championships have the kind of tracking fields and the tracks are made in the quite normal steps. So you need to have the tracking. And that's why a lot of talks are failing. And I have been always telling to people that going to the World Championships, it's not the easy thing. You need to train a lot. You need to put a lot of time in, a lot of money in. This is very long way to go. And if you go to the World Championships and there is very easy tracking fields, then you are lucky and you get results. Yeah. But it sounds so sad that you go there and you fail tracking. I mean, you have put so much money and time and so on.

Isn't it good to build up the tracking in the way that you will always succeed, not just in the easy fields. And in my opinion, this is the problem of the organizers. If I look at the bigger competitions, like now we have this one Sassig competition where the tracking was laid down. I mean, you don't need to have any dog to manage in this tracking. So basically if the organizers make such trackings, they build up the false picture and the people feel so much stronger and they don't need to develop. And that means that if they go to FMBB or FCI, they will crash over there. So this is the problem. I mean, some of the dogs, if they are built up nicely, they manage in both fields, but a lot of dogs will have problems. So if we would like to get some better tracking in the future, our organizers should keep the level. So people start to develop their understanding. People start to develop their training methods. And I would say that if we would put down that next three years, there won't be any competition, stepped very strong and everything is made like normal tracking. After five years, we wouldn't have not a single dog failing in FMBB or FCI. So this is the thing. But people like that the dog. Well, that would be one option. Sorry to interrupt. That would be one option and that would be the good option. However, we know from experience that if something like this happens, then all of a sudden a new organization pops up and everybody is successful. I mean, this happened a few years back with the obedience portion too. Obedience kind of became extremely difficult. Almost not correct to be so difficult as far as the judging. And many people kind of was like, well, this is ridiculous and we're going to step away and we're going to do something else. And I think finding somehow for these changes to happen more gradually so people don't just say, oh, we're going to just join another organization. That would be important, no? Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, if we have nowadays the competitions where the tracking is made, no tracking. I mean, this is like highway. Yes. It could be made difficult little by little. I mean, not like killing the dogs, but moving to a certain direction because if you move little by little, people getting less points, but they won't be killed. Exactly. I mean, from my point of view, when I'm charging, I always also tell the competitors or I also, if I train new charges, I tell new charges also that we have a hundred points. That means that if the dog is doing in the tracking 60 points, he has 60% good things and 40% bad things.

That means that if I give the comments for the person, I always bring up these positive things because there was not just negative things, but positive things. And if I, as a judge, give the feedback to the handler in the way that you were so good in this, you were so good on this, you were so good on this, but this was bad and this was bad. Then he knows what to train. And in the next time, he probably will have the result. But if I give such a comment, I, the biggest thing I need to think is that the person who gets 60 points needs so much more motivation to go on than the person who got 90 points. And if I just kill 60, go home, then I kill this person. I mean, this is not good for anyone. I mean, it sounds so stupid to make something like this. So basically if the field is not so easy and person fails, gets 60 and he understands, okay, I need to fix this and this. Then next time he will get 80 and next time 90. So basically there, there would be some movement, but I understand you. This is quite difficult. I mean, but nowadays it's, it's crazy in the way that people have from some competitions, the feeling that they are so good. And then they are crashing in FNBB and FCI. And, and it's a little bit like having false picture about the dogs, the knowledge, the training. And in my opinion, this kind of false picture also a little bit kills the sport because people don't understand what is correct charging, what is correct trials and how it should build up. So this is the problem because, for example, I charge a lot of tracking, but always when I come to charge to some country, very often they ask from me, which part you would like to charge. Sometimes they say that we would like that you charge the tracking, but sometimes they are asking for, for example, when I came to charge in America, they ask from me, which part you would like to charge. And I always take tracking. And one of the reasons why I take tracking is that in my opinion, tracking need to be in the same value as obedience and bite work. And I want to take care that if I'm in the tracking field, that the people over there get the kind of feedback that they understand where they are, because then they can move on. I mean, I, as a charge never can give false points. I mean, if the dog tracks 67, I can't give 72 because it was 67, but I can say good things for the person and anyhow give 67. And this is the thing, but I think because in tracking very often, uh, charges saying just, uh, uh, value of the leg. They say first leg good, second, very good, third.

So there is just, but they don't explain so much why there was good or why it was very good. Why, why it was unsatisfactory. I mean, and this is the part for example, in, in bite work obedience, we, as a charges, we say so much more in bite work, uh, escape exercise. We don't say that the escape exercise was good. We say that, uh, escape should be a little bit more powerful. Grip was not so firm. Uh, transition phase should be a little bit more calm. So person understands why it was good, but it should be in the same way in the tracking. Yeah. Because then the person understands where to move on. And that's why I give the kind of feedback as I give my critics, people are liking my critics and, and they are liking my critics. A lot of people now in FMBB also, they came to me, shake my hand and said that first time in the sports career, they understood in the tracking for what they are getting the points. Which is shame, really, because this shouldn't be happening at the world level. They should, like judges should be helping with the critics starting from level one and two and so on to where the, the trainer much, much sooner starts to build the picture if they don't have it. What needs to change and what is doesn't need to change. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I mean, uh, we as judges need to value it, how the dogs looks at the moment, uh, and bring out the good things and bring out the bad things. Because then the person understands which parts are bad and he knows how to continue training and, uh, in tracking. It is very often so that the problem is coming out in the tracking. Not so much because how the dog acted in this moment, but how the dog felt before. For example, if I give the critics, I say that your dog didn't concentrate so well and he was not so confident in the first 10 steps. So when I look at your dog, your dog was, uh, showing tracking, but he was not feeling confident and powerful. And that's why the mistake came afterwards because then person knows that if I go home, I need to do something with the starts. If I just say that your dog went off the track on the 15th step, there can be so much different reasons for this. And if, uh, the person don't know the reason, then he don't know what to train. I mean, me as a judge, I cannot, uh, discuss about training methods because I don't know about how they are built up. I can't comment. I can't say that, uh, I'm giving you a comment. You should train this and that because I don't know anything. And even if you do, it would be the wrong thing to do that in a critique. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what judges never can do.

But I must say not just that the dog stepped left, but in tracking as there is so much about how the dog feels. How you read the dog. Yeah. I need to read the dog and say that this mistake came because of that. And so the person understands that this is, uh, he needs to fix not the secondary thing that happened, but the primary thing that brought out this fault. So this is the idea. And as I am so much inside tracking, I read the dogs in the tracking so well. I just want to charge in the tracking to take care that I value the people time and money so much that I want that if they come to compete, they get from me the kind of valuation that they understand what happened. And that's why I choose the tracking because I have noticed that among IGP charges, there is a lot of charges who love the stadium, but stadium part, they love to charge P and C. And then they don't like so much to go to the tracking. Uh, there is a lot of, uh, uh, good charges among IGP who love the tracking, who are really good in tracking, but there is also charges who don't love tracking so much. And that means that, uh, if there is different kinds of charge, uh, then possibly, uh, the competitor gets very good feedback in B, very good feedback in C. But in tracking, he gets just the values. Very good. Good. And that's why I always prefer to go for the tracking because I knew that I can make it in maximum way. I mean, I don't care. I don't compare myself with other charges that I'm better or doing something different, but I mean, uh, I want to take out this risk that, uh, possibly the person gets just the numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that there have been about 90% starts where I have been got just the points. So it has been good, very good, good, very good, good, very good, but nothing about what, what was inside this. Yeah. So I see a little bit this kind of risky and that's why I charge the tracking because in my opinion, for people, the feedback in tracking is more important because in B and C, they see very well that the dog didn't sit or the dog got second command in the house. But if the dog is built up more, uh, in the obedience in tracking, and there is the handler don't read the dog so well, he needs the kind of feedback that someone says that you, you understand the dog made this mistake because he was feeling this and that. So this is the thing. And now I come to FMPB, uh, for me, uh, it was a little bit shocking. I mean, uh, maybe shocking is too black and white word, but, uh, I have been charging, uh, IGPFH World Championships twice. Uh, and, uh, I have been one supervisor.

So I have been sitting very close and looking all the tracks and I have been charging. charging a lot of different, uh, countries, IGP championships, but I have never charged IGP World Championships. This was my first time. Mm-hmm . And when I have been looking the tracking results, I have been always thinking that there were some problems. There was something this and that, but I have never been so close in IGP, uh, World Championships tracking as I was now. And for me, the shocking was that if I compare the average level with a different country championships, for example, like American championships, uh, you didn't have in American championships. So rough problems with disobedience tracking. Then it came out in FMPB. You understand? Yes. So for me, the shocking was that in, for example, in one day, uh, the tracking field was easier than other days. So all tracks were seeable. It was a little bit like, I can't say that it was like a glass, but it was very much, uh, nice field. And you could see all the steps by eyes. So I said to other judge that today all the dogs will get results because I mean, you can't fail. And the percentage of the failure was bigger than other days. So there was 26 dogs and nine fails. And I was like, wow, how it can be possible. Like how it can be possible, how the dogs can fail in such a field. I mean, how, and I would say so that there was a little bit different, how it looked like, but more or less the problem was the conflict. So there were dogs who are doing left and right. And the surface get a little bit drier. It was a little bit windy and they made the kind of mistake that they got out. And when they got out, they didn't know what to do. You know, they didn't start to track, but they started to run around to find somehow the track. So basically, uh, inside the model, everything looked 100 points, nice left and right, good power, everything as it should be. And now dropping out, he couldn't put the nose down and use the nose to get back. Even the dog was like 70 centimeters or one meter off. So it was very, very close. And some dogs were moving across the track left and right, left and right. And they didn't smell that they were going across the track. So it was a little bit, if you look such a dog, you understand that the dog is stressed because otherwise you could smell the track. If you're going across the track and not smelling the track, that means that the dog is stressed. So basically the stress comes always because the conflict. So the conflict could be that they were dropping out of the model and they didn't know what to do.

And other thing, uh, very often in training, uh, people are helping their dogs with the leashes. When I do seminars, I would say that 99% of the people in my seminars, uh, who are helping dogs with the leash. They don't understand that they are helping. Right. I am saying that you are helping. No, no, no, I don't help. So basically this is the thing. If you help in the car, in the trainings, and then you go to the competition, you can't help. The conflict starts from this. For example, I make an example. If the dog makes obedience left and right tracking and he makes mistake, small mistake. And in the training, you correct. This correction is a signal. This is a part of the game. Now in the trial, it gets off the same way, but we are not giving the signal. And that's enough to build up the conflict. I mean, dog is getting to the segment of the life he has never been. Yes. And it's waiting and it's almost like I can do it, but you need to help me here. Yeah, exactly. This is crazy. This is a huge problem. There were also some dogs who just stopped tracking. They were going and just stopped. I mean, doing nothing, getting commands and just stopping or making false indications, showing that they don't want to go or things like this. And this also shows that the dog don't clearly understand what he needs to do in the tracking. So it builds up the stress, builds up the stress. In a certain moment, this dog just can't leave with this stress. So it just quit. So this is like, I would say that the reason is the same. The reason is the conflict, but it's coming from different reason or different point of view. So in my opinion, if I want to train the dog so that he won't get to the stress, I always praise the dog for tracking, for looking for the track, for showing activity to find the track and so on. And I always give negative signals to the dog about running around, doing nothing, making passive or whatever. So in black and white, I give praise for doing certain things and I give correction for doing wrong things. And then I don't praise the left and right, but I praise the activity to get to the left and right. You understand? Yeah, the effort. Basically, if the dog gets to the conflict, he never will be switched off. He always starts to look for the solution. So, so all these failures, what there were, there was very much different kinds of them, but they are always because of the conflict. And the conflict is coming because of the training. Sometimes it's so, I mean, some dogs over there, the handlers were so surprised how it got like this because everything was at home, refined and so on.

But it could be so that the dog is waiting longer in the car. He will be a little bit stressed because the situation is different. Now you need to walk to the start a long way. It again, looking different. And now you start to work. And if you handle the leash differently than at home, it could be the cracking point. Yeah. I mean, I always train the dog in the way, even from the young ages, that in the starts, I keep always full leash. But the people very often make the starts with short leash. And when the dog gets in the nice mood, then they give more leash. But this is the thing that never happens in the trials, you know. So basically we train again, the wrong picture in trials. The most difficult part for the dog is the start because he needs to go by himself. And I'm not stepping behind. Yes. That distance between dog and the trainer. Yeah. But I mean, afterwards, after 10 meters, I start to walk behind the dog. But the first 10 meters, he's just going, going, going, and I'm just standing. So for the dog, there's need to have a good self-confidence to go independently. So basically I would say that the start is the most difficult for the dog because of this. Because if we walk behind the dog, we give the positive feedback that you are correct. And it will rise the self-confidence of the dog. So basically if we wait in the car, dog is a little bit stressed. We make long walk, dog is a little bit more stressed. And now the competition starts. You won't walk behind the dog. And this kind of stress totally will destroy the dog. And so he starts to look nervous. He makes some mistakes and he's always in such a state of mind that he can't solve anymore. So it is like, like Domino, you know, one piece is falling and then every second one is falling again. And at the end, it will be failed. Because overall, I would say that the tracking fields in FNBB, they were not difficult. I mean, okay, people are looking at me, you are FH charge. There is different point of view of what is difficult, but I mean, I always look the field in this way that I look how the dog is tracking. Yeah. And I saw there's several dogs who were speeding quite strongly. And anyhow, they didn't lose the track. So even in the highest speed, they could smell the track. And some of them were tracking so that they were during the track, moving the head, looking on the side and getting again back to the track. So if it would be difficult, these kinds of dogs wouldn't survive. Yeah. So this is the thing that characterize. I mean, for me always so that if I look the tracking field, I think that this is easy or this is difficult.

But then I see the first dogs and then I see how the dogs are feeling this field. And then I can make opinion. This is easy or this is difficult. So in this measure, I would say that the field in FNBB and the style, how the tracks were made were normal. I mean, we could say that they were not easy, but they were not also difficult. What do you think about the like, like, let's say in protection, you have the when the helpers are selected and they go through different camps and they've shown some work and they're clearly, clearly there is a very solid most of the time selection. And so, in the process for the helpers, tracking, tracking layers seems to be, at least from all of my experience, very often the track layers don't have, not that they don't have experience, but they don't have the collective effort to be consistent. And so, in the process for the helpers, they don't have the way to be consistent or to know how to really lay the tracks. Like, like, like, like I, I have played with some interesting statistics a few times. And, and there's been times when dogs will fail because of a certain track layer. So, like, like, like to put it, let's say a trial has four track layers and, you know, they do flights. And then you look at the tracks at the end and you put the percentage of success and failure rate. And you can clearly see that there is this one person that the failure rate is dramatically different than, than the other track layers. How much effort is put on a, on a world level to, to make sure that there is some uniformity and that people that lay tracks are, are not, not just, okay, I'm just going to kick hard. But because that's not the main reason of the track layer. But how, comparing to the helper work, how much effort goes into educating and selecting track layers and how important that is in your opinion? First of all, I would say that maybe I have been lucky. What? In these competitions where I have been judging, the track layers have been very professional and very unique. I mean, there have been no differences between the players. Nice. And I have been thinking that it could be so that in world championships and also in different countries, their own championships, track layers need to make so many tracks that these guys who don't feel so self-confident, they don't go. So probably this is the reason, I mean, the track layers who are chosen, they are already so experienced that they know what to do. I mean, at least as much as I have been charging.

But I guess, sorry to interrupt, I guess just to make it maybe a little more clear, it's not the experience and the knowledge of the different track layers, but how a track layer, like the one track layer would say, well, the corner just happens to be right here in this whatever, a little bit of a problematic area, but too bad, that's where I'm going to do it. And then you have the other track layer that says, you know what, I'm going to take three more steps and make the corner. You know, this kind of little details can really make a big difference. Yeah, I agree with you totally agree with you because now we come to the tracking coordinator. And I would say so that usually when I charge, I always want to meet tracking coordinator before the competition and discuss about how the tracks are done and what there is need to be considered. Now in FMBB, it was also so that before opening, we had a meeting with tracking coordinator and everything was told how me and Jiri want to see the tracking. And it was done perfectly in this way. But I agree with you that if the track layer is not competitor by himself or if he don't have enough experience, there can come out different things in the fields, but you just can't explain to them because you don't know that something like this happens. So for example, I always say to the track layers that if there is a change of terrain, please go four steps more before you make this or that. Or if there is water, please make this or that. So I always try to explain, but anyhow, something can happen, but it's not explained. So there is, I would say that every organizer has a responsibility that he will choose the good track layers. And there is always a little bit difference in the knowledge. So I think that we can't eliminate the kind of risk that there is certain track layer who is not so good. On the other hand, I would say so that when I looked FMBB track layers and how the tracks were done, these people were having different height, different legs and different weight. So if they are making the tracks, anyhow, the tracks are looking a little bit different. Because if you have a woman making track or men making track, if there is double weight or half of the weight, they always look different. But I would say so. I always have been training in my group talks in this way. And that I have been saying that you need to train your dog so good that you will be over the luck. So if you take the bad number, you have bad luck or you have bad field or you have a middle of day more hot and so on.

You need to train so good that your dog is always over the luck. Because if you are on the same level with the luck, you always need, you always will be worried about the weather, about the wind, about the track layer, about whatever things. And if your dog is built up so well that he is over the luck. The difference is how the people are laying the tracks is very small detail. I mean, if you make one hour old track like in IGP-3, it is so easy for dog knows that if the person has longer step or shorter step, if there is some other things like this, it doesn't play a role. Yeah, it's not surprising. The dog is very quick to adapt and right away. Yeah, for sure. If you make the corner within the water so that there is no nothing, just the water. I would say so that it will be a big mistake. I mean, I have been charging in one competition where in the middle of track was a lot of water and no grass at all. And I said to the competitor that you can start again after the water because basically the dog cannot track inside the water. He just cannot track inside the water. I mean, if there is a little bit grass, there is always a little bit smell. Yeah. But if there is like 20 centimeters water and nothing more, this is not trackable. I mean, this is not trackable at all. And it's always not sportive if we kill some sportsmen in this water, because this is not a part of our sport. Yeah, I really like that. And I always understand. I have been also coordinating a lot of tracks and organizing competitions that you look at all the fields and it looks so fine. And now whole night it's raining. You just can't do nothing. I mean, it's not your fault. You just need to manage somehow. But now it's coming to the judge experience. He needs to understand. Is this field in certain bone point trackable or not trackable? And I mean, if there is a deep water and there is no way, no smell, then it's not logic that the dog should make nice corner in this water. I mean, this is the thing. Because in FH it happens more than IGP. During the free hours it rains a lot and there will be certain parts where there was no water before. And now it will be filled with water and there will be a lot of water. And if it's not trackable, then the dog cannot track it. And that's it. Here is a question for you. Dogs like, like, like, I mean, of course there is exceptions and so on, but, but for the most part, the IGP dogs, they end up getting better and better in tracking as they get older.

And to where like their protection and obedience starts to go away and all of a sudden the tracking and understanding of tracking starts to go up. And I think a lot of the reasons that I see is one is just as you said, like you, you know, when you are studying and you're teaching tracking and you don't have the experience of competitions too much, you always pick the most pristine, beautiful spot. And then you go to another trial and you realize eventually that you never get that beautiful spot and you start to train now accordingly how, but I guess a lot of the tracking experience also comes directly from competing and learning from what can you expect in competition as far as tracking. And that makes you really start to train a little bit better and not just pick these beautiful places always for tracking or when there is a problem, you always say, oh, I'm going to avoid it or I'm going to stop. And then also just the age by itself somehow. And then just the age, I guess when I'm saying age, it's not the age, but it's just the number of tracks, the experience that the dogs are accumulating. And they end up being better on average than they were when they were two years old. But they are now seven or eight and they finally get it. And then the competitor starts to kind of feel almost disappointed because the tracking was really the part that always kept them behind because they had nice obedience, nice protection. But now the dog is older and they cannot make that obedience and protection. But the tracking all of a sudden excels. And I guess that's why a lot of people end up going to FH as an outlet at that age. What are your thoughts? It was so funny. I mean, this is a little bit part of the tracking, but I think differently. I mean, I always train the dogs so that I train the dogs from the puppy age so that they are trained by FH. In my group, majority of them never start in FH. They just make IGP and that's it. Because people don't like to be so much in the field to make long tracks and wait and so on. So they just make IGP. But I train them for FH. And I even wouldn't say that I train them for FH. But I train them for tracking, which has so many different components. That if the tracking has so many components, people used to call it FH. But in my opinion, I don't train them for FH. But I train the track in the way that whatever can happen in the track. Because then the dog who is tracking in IGP and there is a water, he also will solve the water. I mean, in my group, I don't see the problem if there is 10 meters water because they always solve it.

Because I teach them to solve it because I think that they have much more possibilities in IGP also then. But I would say so that I always try to get the dog ready in tracking in the same age when they are good in bite work and obedience. And that's exactly what you said. It would feel so sad that if the dog is losing good results because of the tracking and afterwards getting good tracking, he's already old. So I don't want to be in this position. And I would make such an example that my Malinoa, I competed in FH, was two and a half years old. When I won third place in Estonian championships in IGP-FH. And I went to world championships as a reserve dog. And I got the possibility to start in Ukraine. And my dog was just three years old over there. So during the opening ceremony, he had a birthday and got three years old. And he was already built up for IGP-FH in world championships. So this is the thing that people have a little bit. I mean, a lot of IGP people think in the way that when the dog is older, we will jump from IGP-FH to FH. And then we will make the FH. But I would say so that if I look at the FH dogs, if you want to win in the world championships, you need to have also power, drive and all these things. And younger dogs mostly have more power, drive and so on. So I would say that if I look at IGP-FH world championships, very often four or five years old dogs look much better than eight, nine year old dogs. Because they have this, I mean, FH tracking should be charged in the same way like IGP. But means that they both need to have power, drive and all these parts. And if in FH, I don't see the power, then there is a big minus for this. Right. So I build it up like this. But for the question what you asked, why the older dogs look better? I would say that one of the components is that the handlers build up with older dogs, less conflicts. And it could be so, like you said, that they are learning more by going to competitions, getting some experience. But it's also so that, for example, if the dog gets older, he's maybe not speeding so much. So I don't make corrections in the wrong way, wrong timing and whatever. So basically when the dog has already certain knowledge, I will take or people will take all the stupid things away. So the dog will have less conflict. So the dog starts to understand. So basically the dog gets to the age of eight years and then he says, wow, now I understand what you have been meaning all the time. Because you have been now taking all these conflict parts away. And now I understand why you didn't say it in the first year. So this is like so. Right.

That's why they look more confident. Okay. Good one. All right, I will. Next one. Talent. Like when we, like I am firm believer that talent has a, you know, it's something that's given. And there is always, even with human sports, this thing about hard work versus talent or the combination or whatever. And I always lean to talent as a priority. Like natural given talent. So like in obedience, you call a dog and you make a recall and the dog flies to you. And it's not because you reward it. And it's not because you do a retrieve and you can make five retrieves back to back. And the motivation and the desire and the natural talent is there. And it's not because of the reward. You put the dog in bark and hold in the blind and you show them what they need to do. But then the talent just explodes. There is a talent in tracking just as much as in the other phases. And I think that's what makes the sport really beautiful because we need, for the excellent dog, we need the excellent training with excellent raw material of the dog and the talent in all the three phases. If it's not in one phase, we have a little problem in our sport. When we talk about tracking, how much do you acknowledge and when do you recognize that the dog is really talented? Or that dog, it's not that it's not going to be a good tracker. But then some work needs to be done there. And how much it changes motivation versus training system according to the talent, the raw ability of the dogs? I would say so that there are certain dogs who are having better genes in the way that they are easier to train in the tracking. And then there are some other dogs who have different kind of characteristics and they are very difficult to build up in the tracking. So, like you said about obedience, I know it very well. I mean, like my own Molly, when I was training the send out, I just put the pillow to the end of the field once in the spring. And that's it. I mean, I never shouldn't put it there because he was just running always over there with full speed. So, this is the different type of dogs. And I would say so that one of the things that we need to understand is if we take the IGP, we have the rules for sure. But we always have the history and we always need to think why we have this sport. So, when the Sutsund came up, when all this history started, the tracking had a certain meaning for the breeding. Because in obedience and in bite work, you can't see these characteristics, what you see in tracking.

So, basically, if we would eliminate from IGP the tracking part, I would say that we would see in five or ten years a lot of these kind of dogs, what we basically don't want to see. Because in tracking, the dog needs to concentrate in the same way for a long time. And we don't have this in BNC. Correct. And this long concentration will change the stress level and state of mind of the dog. And the dog needs somehow to solve it. So, if we take, for example, bite work, always the dog gets the bite. It little bit makes the break. I mean, he can get, there is going from one drive to another drive, making obedience. So, it's a little bit like, even it's a long one and it's physically very difficult for the dogs. But it has so that your brains are not running in the same mood all the time. In obedience, it's also, it's building up for the dogs a lot of stress because there is no ball, there is nothing during the obedience. But anyhow, they are divided into exercises. So, the dog explodes, then he can calm down, you can say, good. Again, explodes and so on. But in tracking, he needs to work by himself, getting no praise, nothing back. And this is showing the certain kind of characteristics from the dog. So, I would say so that if we make the competitions where we eliminate the tracking because we make it too easy, we make it just in the way that every dog gets to the stadium, you know, you understand what I mean? Yes. That every dog gets the result in the tracking. Then we basically go against the main idea why the Suitsund was done. I mean, we eliminate certain genes which have the same kind of importance. Are we totally going to change the makeup of the dogs? 100%. Just as you said, within five years. Yeah. So, I would say so that some dogs have advantage in bite work. Other dogs have advantage in the tracking and other dogs have advantage in the obedience. In the same way, I would say that if we are looking at the handlers, we have certain top-level handlers who are good in everything. But then we have handlers who are good in obedience and handlers who are good in bite work and handlers who are good in tracking. So, basically, like you said, this is the beauty of our sport. It's a little bit so that if you get 100 points in C but 85 in B and 70 in tracking, you never win. And there is not much dogs and handlers who get 100 points in every discipline. So, this is about, I mean, every dog has certain abilities which are good. Either in B, either in C or either in tracking.

And I would say that if we have very much strong dog in bite work, tracking is so easy that you can always get your 95 in tracking. If the dog is very good for the tracking, but don't have the kind of power, don't have the kind of parts that we need in C, there is very difficult to get over 90 points for this dog in C. So, I would say that because of the tracking is so much easier for the dogs. If you train it on the proper way, it's not playing so big rule after all, how high you get in the podium. Because if we look at the World Championships, very often it's so that you need to get excellent in the tracking. And then B and C are the parts that will decide which place you get. But very often it's so, if you lose in the tracking 10 to 15 points, you never get them back in obedience or never get them back in bite work. So, it's a little bit the kind of thing that on one side, the tracking is easier because different kinds of dogs can make it. But if you lose in the tracking, then it's very crucial because you can't win it back in B and C. So, it's a little bit like this. And I would say so that in tracking, there are certain kind of dogs who are extremely difficult to build up for the tracking. And they always get less points or sometimes fail and so on. But if you build them correctly up, they never fail, but they never get high points. But the number of these dogs are not too big. On the other side, we have these dogs because we have breeded too long, too hectic dogs and too explosive dogs and so on. Because we loved in B and C that the dogs are quick, boom, boom, boom. Yes. And if we breeded these dogs, these dogs are not good for the tracking. So, basically, when we eliminated the tracking because we made tracking so easy, we made two bad things. All the know-how was disappearing and bad kind of dogs came in because of the breeding, because the qualifier of the tracking was out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because now I like very much how the FCI takes the IGP rules. I have been visiting every year this FCI charges trainings and I like how the power, how the drive, how the balance, all these things are now in the rules. I mean, nowadays we try to value it so much more, the more balanced dog than the hectic ones and fast ones who are a little bit older time under pressure. And it is in the obedience, it's in the bite work and it's the same in the tracking. And that's why, for example, now in the rules, it's written primary things and secondary things. And it is not new thing. So with older rules in every judge training, it was told that these are more important than

other things, but a lot of judges didn't quite understand the point. And now it's written black and white. These are primary things and these are secondary things. For example, if we speak about tracking, I never go. If the dog shows the article, I never go next to the dog. Sorry. As a judge. Yeah. Yeah. I never go close to the dog. And the reason is that if there is a very high grass, then I need to go. But if there is a black ground, like it was in FMVB and I'm 10 meters off, I see the power. I see the balance. I see the self-confidence. I see how the dog looks with the handler. I see the bonds. I see like all these primary things. Yeah. If the article is a little bit against the leg. This is a small thing because if the article is under the dog, I see as well from the 10 meter distance. Right. If the handler puts the hand under the dog, I don't need to be beside because of this. So that's the reason why I don't go there. Because in my opinion, if I go there, I make a little bit pressure for the dog. And then I should go with every dog over there because otherwise it's not equal. Right. Why I go to some dogs and not to other dogs. So I don't do this because I see all these primary elements from the distance. I don't need to run the dog. Yeah. Just like the same, like in the bark and hold. You don't need to stick your head between the dog and the helper. Right. You allow that space. You feel the dog from the distance. I mean, you feel how the dog is feeling. This is a little bit the feeling thing. This is not the technical thing, but what about the feeling and all these feeling things have been coming more important nowadays in IGP because we want to see in bite work also that the dog is making the kind of pressure and he's really fighting with the help and so on. But this is not technical thing. This is about feeling thing and feeling things. You can see also from the distance. You don't need to be in the middle of dog and helper. And in the tracking, I would say so that if I charge the tracking, I have been always saying that I am kind of feeling what the dog is feeling. I mean, I feel is the dog feeling self-confident, not self-confident, feeling powerful, not powerful. And for me, it's no idea to be closer because I can feel it in the same distance because now it's in the rules. I can't go closer than 10 meters. I can't go closer than 10 meters. So I must stay 10 meters. And I see it so clearly from there. And nowadays it's so good because it's written down primary, secondary. Yeah. Early it was so that the dog was showing the article making perfect. Everything was perfect.

And then the handler came and the dog just moved the head. And some charges took one point off. Doug moved again the head, took second point off. And now you think that the dog was perfect. And another dog who is feeling bad and sad, who is slow, who is not powerful, but don't turn the head. It can't be so that I give more points for this dog because then I praise technically built up weak dog, not the strong dog, what we would like to see. And strong dog don't mean just that the dog is by the nature strong, but it also means that the dog is strong in the exercises, that it's built so that the dog feels strong. And that's what we need to praise. And this is the thing in the rules now, black and white, that we have primary things and secondary things and primary things bring up these more important things. Right. Right. So let's stay a little bit on the articles because it's definitely a topic that a lot of people, me included, you know, like there is always certain confusion. Um, I have chosen to, um, have a certain picture with my dog. Other trainers have a different picture and including the, the whole training about the articles. And where I'm going with this is like, you know how sometimes, um, the dog's gonna come to the article. It will be nice article, but they will be so fixated. And you know, this is just over trained to, to stay focused. Even sometimes they will kind of pack like a bird on the article cause they're expecting food. How, how do you see this kind of intensity? And then of course you have the other ones that they're almost possessive. Like the, the handler cannot take the article without getting tagged. And then you have a dog that just lays down and opens their mouth. And it's like, okay, this is like a checkpoint. There is nothing else to do. How do you see the different article indication? And what is in your eyes the optimal? And you also, sometimes during the competition, I don't know if it was having a drink or when, but, but you mentioned something that, uh, uh, it really, kind of, you saw the difference in the FH dogs indicating and the IGP and a lot of the IGP dogs doing it for like a different reason almost. Yes. Uh, first of all, uh, I don't want that people understand me wrong. I mean, in FNPP there were, uh, a lot of dogs built up nicely. And there were dogs who got excellent doing very, very nice work. So if I speak about mistakes, these mistakes are always about the second part who had more mistakes. So it doesn't mean that all dogs are built up somehow wrong. This is what I don't mean. Yes. Yes. Correct.

We had in FNPP a nice percentage of very nicely built up dogs. But if I take the average, how the average looked like, I would say that in IGPFH World Championships, I saw better bond before between the handler and the dog in the articles. Uh, in, uh, FNPP, uh, there was more seeable with some dogs that they were a little bit like machines. They showed the article in certain way, but they were not happy about showing this article to the handler. And handler also didn't feel the kind of bond with the dog that he's happy that the dog showed the article. Because for example, in, uh, in FCI, uh, FH, uh, a lot of dogs showing the article. Some of them showing more strong, some of them showing not so strong or self-confident, but mostly they were showing so that they shoot the article. And when they shoot the article, the tail was a little bit moving. He was happy. He wound the article. He was a little bit looking where the handler is coming, where the handler was coming closer. He was more happy about the handler is coming. Handler was very happy that the dog showed. So when he praised the dog, you saw that it's coming from the heart, that he really loves his dog. You see some kind of completion at the article, right? Exactly. Yeah. So I think that in IGPFH, uh, this is coming because these people are training tracking so much more. So, uh, they're built up more connection between the dog and the handler. I think that this is something like this, that they are going to the field, they are making long tracks. It's a little bit like battle. You have your horse and you are going with your horse to the battle and you are fighting together. It's a little bit more like this, but in, in, uh, IGP, it's more about that. I'll train you these tricks in tracking. You need to make these tricks. Then I'm happy. It's not about that. We are doing the tracking together. So it could be like this. I, it's difficult to say, but the thing, what you asked about, uh, some dogs are pointing the article with no. So they are very much, uh, how to say it. They are in the kind of pressure that they are not moving. They are just sewing. They are like statues showing the article. Uh, I would say that this is very much risky thing. Because if you take the nature of the dog by the nature, not the single dog would not like to be in the article this way. I mean, why it should be. Right. That means that if you train the dog this way, anyhow, you give some kind of pressure to the dog or some feedback or control that he looks like this. Yeah. And then you have very sharp border falling to the side that the dog looks under pressure.

You understand? You, you need to be very much, uh, good in this so that the dog looks precisely perfect, but don't look stressed. Because when I look back in FMBB, uh, it's so funny. You can see the dog is focusing on the article. He's very much like a statue. Don't move. He just focus. And now the handler coming closer and all the time the airs a little bit down. And when the handler is coming, you can see how the airs are moving and some of them even moving more down. That means that somehow this dog don't like that the handler came. We can say that the dog was focusing better and so on. And that's why the airs are like this. But if you look at the body language of the dog, you see that the dog is not feeling so good. So I can't say that the handler has been kicking the dog or making bad things, but, uh, the dog is trained so that the dog don't feel comfortable. And that's why he looks a little bit sad and under pressure. And if I look such dog, always the dog, if he has a little bit pressure or a little bit sad, this dog never looks powerful. And this dog never looks balanced and this dog never looks self-confident. So I cannot say that the dog is having much pressure in the article, but I can say that he should feel better in the articles. So this is a little bit risky in the way. If you train it very perfect, uh, there is no problems, but there is a huge risk that the dog will look sad in the articles. I mean, uh, yeah, sad is the one side. And then the other side is this discipline of no, you cannot look anywhere else. You have to like, almost like a bird dog, like a pointer and you have to, yeah. Yeah. But that does not bring you any extra points. Exactly. No, no way. People think that that brings extra points for some reason. No, no. I mean, uh, nowadays by the rules, what we have, uh, it's more or less that you will lose points with this. Right. Because the dog looks stressed and you lose points because of this, because now it's written in the rules that the dog can look back to the handler, wave with the tail and move the head and so on. This is no mistake. So basically if the dog looks like this, that he's looking at the handler and the handler is coming and dog is happy that the handler is coming. It's always very, very nice. I mean, if the dog moves the head back and in the same time, he moves also the body, then it's a mistake. But if the body stays and just the head is moving, it's no mistake. I mean, the tracking should be understood. So that the idea of the tracking is the finding of the articles. The dog is going to track to find the articles.

This is like the purpose of the tracking. So basically, if the dog finds the article for the handler, both should be happy. The dog is happy that he found and the handler is happy that the dog found the article. Mission accomplished. Yeah. If the dog finds the article and he needs to make obedience during this thing, then we praise not the finding the article, but we are praising the obedience that the dog is doing. Yeah. And then we come to this position that in certain moments, the dog starts to love the tracking more and he won't show the last article. Yeah. Because he doesn't like the articles. He likes tracking. There is so much interesting stuff we're talking about. I know, I know everybody that is into tracking would really like this podcast. Let me, let me ask you still on the articles. I've been personally curious because I haven't seen it in a long time. Is the retrieving articles. Have you seen this lately? Is it still acceptable? I remember back in the 90s, there were some top dogs that were doing it and they were doing a very good job with it. It's just a little bit trickier how you judge it, but in some ways it gives the dog some kind of break and refocus and like re-engage and then restart. But tell me about this kind of. Now in FCI, I think FH World Championships, there was one dog who was retrieving. So it's still okay. Yeah, yeah, it's okay. But I would say so that I never ever would train this because showing the article in the normal way. There is so much less details inside than bringing the article. There is so much more details. And if the dog makes mistakes in these details, you lose very easy points. I mean, showing the article, you can lay down, you can sit, you can stand. I mean, there is a lot of different ways. And when you make the start, you're always beside the dog. So the dog, you can always control with the leash. You can always, I mean, it gives you a little bit more possibilities to have some conversation with the dog. If the dog brings the article, it's very much clean. I mean, you don't have possibility to have too much conversation with your dog. So, it's a little bit complicated to train it. And if the dog retrieves the article, you won't get any bonus for this. I mean, you just spend more time and you have more possibilities to fail. Concerning the show-in articles, I was judging in this FCI RGPFH, the winner of World Championships, who got 100 points from me and 100 points from other charts, Sars Zvek. I would say so, that this track of this lady and this Sherman Shepard was the best track I will see until I die.

Because I said it also to this winner, that this track was so perfect. That track cannot be better. That means that someday I can see similar kind of track, but I never can see anything better because nothing can be better. And you know, this dog was showing all the articles standing. Mostly dogs are showing lay down and sometimes they are a little bit feeling not so good and they are standing. But this dog was showing all the articles standing. And the interesting thing was that he was showing the standing so that the article was in every article exactly in the same position. It was exactly between the legs and in the same line. I mean, perfectly in the same way. And this is very interesting because mostly if you train the dog to lay down in the articles, it's a little bit easier because there's more stability. Yeah, there is not much space. I mean, if the article is between legs, it can't be left and right and it can't be on the chest. So for the dog, there is very limited box where the article can be. But if the dog stands, the box is much more open. So it's not so easy to train the dog. How you explain to the dog that the article should be precisely at this spot. So it's, I would say it's more difficult, but it was so perfectly built up that it was exactly in the same spot in every article. So it was like crazy to see. I mean, you are looking and it's exactly like by millimeter in the same spot. So I would say that if the dog is bringing, it is difficult to build up, but it could be same way. All these centimeters and millimeters nicely built up, but it's more difficult. It's the same laying down. It's easier standing. It's more difficult. I guess the, like if I know that I would ever. Who knows, maybe I will, but the retrieving articles, I guess one kind of benefit that I could see is that the dog can grab it and come to you. And it's almost like, like allowing the dog to kind of shake it off. And it's like, okay, now we go for round two. There is that more of a freedom in between during the article versus any other indication, you know, but I don't know how good that could be. What about the dog that sit? I don't like this. Do you see any advantage of that or? No, no. But concerning this retrieving, I would say so that if the dog is tracking and showing the article, laying down on the article, he still will be in the same mood or state of mind. If he's retrieving and shaking, like you told, he will lose this state of mind because he will be shaking off.

Like I said, and now the problem is that in the start, you, you're making the start with short leash and you can little bit adjust the mood. But if the dog is retrieving, you can't make the start with short leash because it's loose. Yes. That means that the dog needs to find out by himself the correct state of mind. And that's, that's complicated because bringing the article, the dog will lose the correct state of mind. And now he needs to find it by himself. Right. Like at the moment. So that, that's what makes it more complicated. If the dog lays down, he stays in the starting spot. You can have the short leash and he's more or less in the same state of mind, but he was before showing the article. So that's why it's easier. Another thing, as a mistake, what I see in the competitions, I didn't see so much in this world championships in FNBB. But I see it very often is that the dog, when he's starting from the article should take the first steps also with the same power, like all the other track. Uh, there are some dogs who speeding over the first 10 steps or five steps, not taking them. Right. And then there are some dogs who are pointing with the nose, these steps, but they are not taking them deeply in the way that you can see that they are taking them. So I would say so that, uh, uh, I admire always competitors who have managed to train this part for the dogs because it's not so easy to train. And if I compare these dogs should get more points than the dogs who don't make it, because if you don't take all steps, you should lose some points. And it is the same with the corner. Uh, people are speaking so much about speeding after the corner, uh, dog who's speeding after the corner always gets some minus. This is very logical, but in, uh, like in FNBB, I saw several or even a lot of dogs who were doing very precise corner, but they were not showing the power in the corner. Yeah. You understand the same thing, like in the start, that means that the dog makes the turn automatically. Yeah. These are not big minuses, but if you want 100 points and the dog makes, poof, uh, starts from the article, uh, so that you don't take first three steps. You will lose one point or one and a half. And if in the turns, the turns automatic and he won't take whole steps and everything rest is very nice. You probably will get 97 or 98, but never hundreds. And this is the thing. I mean, you don't lose much, but there are people who train these things.

And I admire that people have done it so perfectly as it should look like by the rules that, uh, there should be difference in the points between these two kinds of dogs. Yeah. Ivo, how difficult it is to recognize dog that is trained. I mean, we, we know, unfortunately, or, or whatever, that there is systems for tracking that basically start with, okay, here is the start and there is pressure. And it's basically learning to avoid pressure by tracking all along. I don't need to explain it. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. How difficult for you it is to, to see that. And when the dog is tracking and, and besides, let's say there is a problem on the track and the dog cannot solve it. And then it really crumbles and fails apart. But, but let's say the dog really makes the track, but you see it, that it's a, the reason behind it. It's a, it's a, it has changed. How, how do you, do you like, what do you do with that? And how do you see that? And how do you recognize that if you can even? Uh, I would say so that the, uh, uh, uh, word pressure, this is a little bit tricky. Uh, because, I mean, I'm saying pressure not to say other words. Yeah. I, yeah. But the thing that I want to explain is that, uh, if you use, uh, force in the tracking so that you put the dog to track in the way that he must do track and the dog is tracking because he's afraid, uh, and you make pressure. Yeah. Uh, such dogs, if they are clearly working this way, uh, you can see it from the body language of the dogs, but now we go to the next step. If you have been doing it a little better, the dog looks, uh, a little bit under pressure, but some dogs are getting the pressure from the tracking. Uh, and don't feel so confident. Yeah. Good point. They start to look also under pressure, even they are never trained with the pressure. Absolutely. So I would say so that, uh, if I charge and I see this dog under certain pressure and the pressure is not so big that I could say that the dog is trained. Wrong. I always give minus because I don't care. Does the dog take the pressure by himself or it is, is the dog is trained by the pressure? Mm-hmm. Because on both ways, the dog is not looking like the dog should look like, because dog should look like self-confident and powerful. If the dog is tracking and building up the pressure by himself, looking not so comfortable and looking not so powerful, then this is a mistake. So basically, uh, I, as a judge, cannot say to the handler that you have trained the dog wrongly because I see the pressure. Because sometimes the pressure is coming from the dog side.

And that means that usually if I see such dog, I say in the comments that the dog was working under the pressure. And I cannot say it's coming from this side or other side, but dog shouldn't look like this. So it makes you this minus or that minus or whatever. And you need to get the dog tracking more self-confident and more free. And if the people who have been using the pressure, they understand very well that I pointed out that this thing. So they need to reorientate in the training or if the people have been training the dog nicely and the dog is looking stressed, they have idea what they should do at home. They can think about this, why the dog is looking stressed. But this is, this is, I mean, in certain level, you can't, you, you as a judge cannot see the difference. Right. But if the dog is very much under stress or put under stress, I have seen these dogs also in World Championships, not in FNBB, but in other World Championships. And I have seen some of these dogs and they are exactly like a road. They are making a mistake. Then they start to make a lot of different things. You feel that they are shake. They cannot do anything. Then you see that these dogs, because if the stress is so big, then the dog starts to make mistakes because it's not a difference. Because his head cannot take so much the pressure. So he goes, goes, goes, the pressure will be too high. He makes small mistake. And then you see how the dog looks scared. So in this situation, this is a big mistake. I mean, the dog is trained, not in a way we look, would like to see. And it brings at least one degree down, maybe even more. I see. Okay. Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Let's talk about the tail. In obedience. You know, in obedience, it's becoming almost like a, I mean, it's sad, but I see it happening, like really see it happening. People start to breed. People start to breed and people start to buy puppies that have that genetic kind of like a piggy tail, just so they can show that when the dog does obedience, the tail is up and the dog is emotionally in a good place in their head. In tracking. In tracking. In tracking. We have dogs that can do tail up or dogs that cannot physically do tail down because it's genetically like that. And then you have a tail that is very comfortably hanging low. And of course, a tail that is starting to get tucked towards the body that certainly shows something. And I, when I have these conversations with different people, I always bring that analogy of chess players. Because you will have different people that are very good at the game.

And because it's a mental game, they, their bodies do things in order to maintain that mental state. So you, you know, you have a chess player that makes a move and then paces around and paces around and it cannot stop because if you stop them, their brain is not going to function right. And then you have a different player that makes a move and it stays like a steel, like a, like a crane ready to get a bird and nothing moves. Where do you see the body language and specifically the way the dogs carry their tail during tracking? And, and of course, the, the tail by itself shouldn't be the only indicator of what we see, but, but tell me a little bit about this, because I know this is another big conversation. I mean, the tails and the ears, this is the funniest part in the tracking. I mean, as long as I have been in FCI charge trainings, I have been like 20 years or 15 years over there. They're always saying that you shouldn't look tail and the ears in the tracking. They always say, and I always laugh about this because if we have charges who don't see the whole body language and they just see ears and tails. And you say that you can't look the ear and tails, what they will look then? I mean, if you don't have the skill to read the body and you take the tail and, and the ears off, then what there will be? I mean, for me, it's so funny because in my logic, as much as I read dogs, tails and ears. Okay. If the tail is totally under the body and so on, it's sometimes still a little bit more, but mostly tails and ears. They're very little. I mean, you need to see the whole body language. And probably isn't it most like what is in my opinion, the most telling about the mental state is how the dog moves on the track. I would say concerning the tail, by the way, I have at home two Malinoas. They both have been competing. One is mine and another is my wife. My wife is also IGP charge and I've been competing and so on. And my wife dog has been having all the time tail down. I mean, tracking all the time tail down. And we have never used any pressure. We have never, even we, we have not made so much corrections because this dog was so much about food and tracking and so on. But by the nature, the tail is totally down. And this is like this. I mean, the, the tail is not, I mean, if I look the dog in the tracking, it's very much difficult to explain. I mean, if you ask about how the dog moves or how to do, these are all technical things. And in my opinion, the problem of our sport is that if you want to be good charge, you need to read the dog, the body language.

You can't study to be charged by reading the technical parts so that the tails are so the head is so the legs are moving so and so and so, because it's not possible. I mean, if I charge the dog, I feel the dog in the way. If I see the dog, for example, tracking, I feel how the dog is feeling. I mean, it's not about the steps. It's not about the head. It's not about, I, I see the dog and I see how the dog is feeling. And I even don't look the tail or the ears because very often it's so that I see so good concentration and the dog makes so powerful tracking and it looks so nice. And then I look, wow, your tail is totally down and your ears are totally low. So I look at like secondary thing. I look, wow, you have like this because it doesn't matter for me. I look the dog tracking and I put down powerful, nice, this and this. And then I laugh a little bit about, ah, okay, these are looking like, like so. So I would say that, that you need to see and feel how the dog looks like, like totally. I mean, this is, this is, I mean, if you meet someone in the street, ah, and the person is smiling to you, does it mean that the person is happy? Right. Very true. I mean, in America, I have seen also a lot of people who are always smiling, but you never know if they are happy or not happy. Yeah. So this is, this is the thing. I mean, we can also make a lot of different faces, but you need to feel what this person is feeling. I have, I have been just telling it that because I work in different business everyday life. And I have been saying to people that. Yeah. You do some cooking or something. I, I, I make professional kitchens like hotels and restaurants. Uh huh. They make autocad planning and, and then equip it with the kitchen equipment and make training and so on. But I have been also working as a cook. So, so I know. I saw you're making some good steaks in one video. Yeah. I make good steaks. I have at home this Kamado Joe, you know, and I make chicken and, and, and all these things very nice. But the thing that I'm telling also at work is that for me, it's very much uncomfortable to sit with people behind the desk. Because I read the body language so well. I mean, because of dog training, I see when the person is lying. I see when the person is feeling sad, but showing out that everything is okay. And sometimes it's not so good. If you read so much the people, I mean, sometimes it's better. If you get this picture as they would like to show to you. Right. Not that you will get, I don't want to be the psychologist. I just want to be whatever business partner. Yes.

But because of reading the dogs, I also read the people all the time and I can't handle this in the way. I just automatically reading this. And this is about the dogs. I would say so that we have so good judges who read the dogs so well. And I always look them charging and explaining. And I always looking so that if this person is giving 95 in the bite work, how many people in the stadium are who understood why it was 95, not 96? Because I know that this person is reading so well the body language, but as the judge, he cannot explain it to the people who don't read it so well. So this is the problem in our sport. And this is the situation when the audience starts to say that this judge is giving more points to whatever Germans or Americans or whatever, because they don't understand why the points are looking like this. And I would say so that if you are charging and you are in the stadium in the field, you feel the dog so much better than from the side. Oh, 100%. If you are in the audience, you never feel the dog in the same way. And so, for example, now in FNBB, I had a funny situation a little bit because we didn't have one charge. He got ill. So it was so that I was charging the tracking and then I was charging all bite work in finals and most of the obedience in the finals. Yeah. So I was not charging just six dogs obedience. Otherwise, I would charge both B and C in stadium. And as I was not charging these six dogs obedience, I was sitting in the audience. And it felt so different, you know, it felt so different because I was just doing six dogs in the stadium and it felt so much different. And now going to the side, it felt so much different again because you are a little bit not with the dog because if you are charging, you're always moving with the dog. You see the correct point of view so that you feel the dog better. If you are far away, the angle is not correct. You don't feel the dog same way. And this is the thing, but this very much difficult to explain to the people because they don't have this feeling. So this is the difficulty and it's the same in the tracking because in tracking the feeling part is even so much more important from the point of training and from the point of charging. I'm charging that I as a charge, I think that when I charge, I need to explain this part also to the handler, like I told in the beginning, but I'm never so sure how much they really understand it.

Because if they have been training their dogs more obedience and not so much dog reading, then all the info that I give about dog reading, maybe don't click in their head because they don't have the touch in this way. You know, like I always, there is times when the, like the, all the judges camps, when they're organized, sometimes they get recorded or live streamed to where almost anybody can watch. And sometimes we rely on whomever is the delegate to come to the country and give us the explanation. And I think today with the technology that we have, I think it would be very cool for any competitor that wants to actually just be a fly on the wall and just participate, not participate, but listen to the presentations. And, you know, the, you know, the tendencies during those meetings, like firsthand, instead of a delegate coming back home, then telling it to the breed club, then the breed club to the regional director. And eventually some things get missed. And I think that that will speed up and maintain a good education in the, the people that actually train dogs. What do you think? It's very complicated. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's very much complicated because it has so much different tasks. I mean, if we speak about charge training, like FCI makes the charge training. In my opinion, if the charge training is online, it's always very much wise. If also more people see it, if all the competitors see it and so on, because then we have very much more common point of view, or we understand maybe more the same things in the same way. But on the same time, I would say that if I look at the charge trainings, if it's made theoretically in the room and there is a hundred charges and this theory is given there. I wouldn't be very much surprised that all the hundred charges are not getting the same point of view because people have different understanding. People have different experience. Different have, people have different everyday practice and so on. So they, because of this level, they understand the message a little bit differently. Yeah. And if we now make it online, it is even more difficult because sitting in the room, you get it directly in the online, you will lose even more. That means that in this way, people sitting online, they think that they get 100%, but they maybe get it a little bit in the mirror in the way that they don't understand everything correctly. So at the moment it's so that the FCI utility commission has been planning that they start to make every year the practical charge training. And that means it was now done for the different pre clubs in the March.

So that the number of charges was not too big, but about 15 or 20 people. And they were in the stadium. They were charging practically one by one, the talks and then discussing about what they were seeing. And I would say so that if we want to rise the level of charges, this is very good way. I mean, this is how it should be done because then we see the same dog and we can have the conversation and maybe people will see it then differently. It is so much better than theoretical training. Like so, so much better. Yeah. But such charge training, if we make it in online, then we even lose more than making the theoretical training because through online, you don't see the dog in the same way as people on the stadium. So it's a little bit like I totally agree with you that concerning FCI utility commission charge trainings, if we could get more unique package out, it would develop technology. Yeah, something more. Yeah, exactly kind of like that. Not the whole, you know, not the whole four days, but a condensed version of. A message that is already discussed and decided, right? Something like this. But it's like I said, now it's not so black and white. It's so that in the beginning, I was also very much enthusiastic that it should be done this and this and this and that. Now I have been 20 years in this utility commission getting deeper and deeper in. And then you start to understand that everything is not so black and white, that there is a little bit complicated parts. If you're outside, you don't understand why they are doing this like this. But if you're inside, then you start to think that there is not so good possibility how to make it. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's now moving very much to the right direction. I would say. I agree. I agree. And and the thing but but in my opinion is very, very good is that now in charge trainings, theoretical parts. And Hari has been doing the bite work every time. And I like this because he makes the same structure and the same message all the time. So then it works well. If there are always different person, they have little bit different point of view. And it's so much more difficult to understand what is the direction. If the same person is making this, it's so much easier to understand. So this is so good. And now it's so that the practical training for the charges will be done every year. This is so good thing. Nice. I think that this is moving to tonight really nice direction. In the last meeting, there was also a discussion that we won't make. Two charges in FCI like it's an FNPP. Uh huh. You will or you will not.

Will not because it won't give anything, but we probably will try from the next year, a little bit the same system like WSWOW has, that there will be assistant charge. So there is two charges and second one is assistant charge. And the assistant charge is the one who will be charging next year. Uh huh. So in this way, we could manage... So, but when the assistant judge is assisting, they have no influence in the points or do they? It, it, it, it, it, it need, it need to be clarified a little bit more specific how it works. But the idea was that if you charge, uh, in, uh, World Championships, there is five days, you will be very much tired. And if you, as a charge will miss something or you will make mistakes. Yes. The assistant charge can say it. Okay. You didn't see this. So you didn't see that. Yeah. Then in these basics, the charging should be also more, uh, bulletproof in the way that less mistakes will be there. Yeah. That's the, yeah, no, this is very true. This is kind of where I always, I, I like the idea of two judges because of that, because human mind sometimes wanders off, even if it's not tired. It's just our brain can wander off. Yeah. Yeah. And there is always the discussion between, well, the two judges should stay in different corners and never talk. And, and I don't think that's a good idea. I think ultimately, just as you said, like, Hey, did you see that, that dog didn't even make the sit? Yeah. You know, like, so communication between the judges and, I mean, I guess if it's not two judges and there is an assistant, as long as the assistant can, can say, Hey, you, there was something here that I need to bring your attention to that just happened. You know? Yeah. So, it's a very fast that they can discuss and this assistants will be judging next year championships. And maintain the direction. Yeah. Then the direction and line will be more the same. And then there will be again assistant. And, and I think that this could work well. Mm-hmm . But this was just decided in the last meeting and it's a little bit the thing that will be solved out how it will look like and so on because it just came out in the last meeting. But I think that as idea, this is very good idea. I mean, it could change the judging in a more consistent way. Yes. We cannot have one year. We're focusing on this in the judging and the next year is very different. We need to have a consistent progression. That's for sure. Yeah. And I want to, sorry. Sorry. It also could take out some mistakes, for example, like we discussed. Yeah.

So this way, I just see all positive things in this and if it will come like this out, I think it's very nice step forward. I like it. I want to bring you back to one tracking question that I almost was going to forget. And this is the tracking with open mouth. Like how much, like how, how do you judge it? Let's say you have a dog that, I mean, it clearly it's tracking and it's not walking as you, you know, how you describe that some dog just kind of, they're going, but they're not tracking. It's tracking, but the mouth is kind of slightly open, almost like they're taking scent, which dogs also can do through the mouth. And what, what, how, how is it a faulty and how big of a faulty it is if the dog tracks with open mouth? It's not good question. It's not good question. I have a good one, huh? You know why it's not good? Because I, I start again speaking about body language. This is like ears and tails, you know. I mean, some judges are very, very explicit. It's like, no, that's not intensive enough. But I, I, I, again, come back. This is the same like tails and ears. I make one example. Maybe it's not, but I, I, again, come back. This is the same like tails and ears. I make one example. Maybe it's not, but I, again, come back. This lady who got a hundred points from me and Sasha Sweck in the FCI FH. This dog was starting the tracking with such a power that it was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Every track, like, like with full power. And in Slovakia, it was made so that all the tracks were quite long. It was made with about 60, 70 centimeter steps. So quite long steps and 1,800 steps. So they were quite long. Yeah. So I was thinking this is looking so, so nice, but let's see how it looking on the last leg. Or if it's turning the last turn against the wind. Mm-hmm . And then the last leg will be against the wind because dog is tired. And how it's possible that the dog can look, make the same power and intensity because he had lost so much power over it in the first part. But the dog was doing exactly the power in the last turns against the wind and so on. Everything looked the same. So I would say so that concerning the open mouth. If the dog is powerful, is he making very nice concentration tracking and so on. The mouth is the same thing like tail and ears. Because the mouth is not important. Important is what the body language is showing. If the dog is making all components, what we want to see in the tracking, then it need to be getting excellent. No difference how the mouth is looking like. But mostly the dogs are opening the mouth when they will be tired.

And mostly then the concentration gets not so good. And mostly the tracking is not so powerful. So the whole picture is not any more excellent, but let's say good or something. And very often in this situation, they start to skip some steps. And because of this, they start to make some controlling. So I cannot say that these minuses are coming because of the open mouth. But there is a lot of things also that is missing. Yeah. And another thing that I would also like to bring out, especially in FH World Championships, I have been telling this. In this IGP, FMPP, it was not so much seeable. But if we take the rules, by the rules, the dog can make a small control. If the dog is not leaving the track, then it is not mistake. If the dog is tracking, he's on the track, turns the head, makes control and go on. Then it's not calculated as mistake. But again, it's not so black and white. I mean, if the dog makes the control. And I see clearly that there are the steps. And I see that the dog don't feel so safe. And that's why he makes this control. Then it's mistake because he made the control because he was not feeling so good. Or he was stressed about the leg. And so he made the control. Another dog who is showing so good power. He just need to make the check because he sees that there is rabbit or someone being caught. He just need to look okay. Yeah. Okay. I'm the king. This is my castle. I need to take care of my castle. But the dog is looking differently then. And this is the thing. The mistake is not taking the control, but the mistake is why the dog is making the control. Right. So if the tracking field is very much like a class. And there is a lot of crossing animal tracks or whatever, but there is also very clear track of the person or track layer. If the dog is all the time checking the animal tracks crossing, I would say that this dog is not so self-confident in the tracking. Otherwise he would go by the main track, not after every three steps, check the crossing, check the crossing, check the crossing, because it shows that he is not so self-confident about his work. A little unsureness. So he needs to check all the crossings. Yeah. Yeah. Now, you are, I mean, you give a lot of seminars on tracking. You have a really cool website that we're going to put as a link for people to, because there is like a very cool library. I mean, you're clearly extremely passionate about this. You're coming to the States like in a week, giving two workshops here and I don't know where else you're going.

But I highly recommend for anybody that's interested in tracking to come and, you know, experience and maybe take something from you. My kind of last question. When you do tracking seminars and workshops. What are the top two things that it seems like you, you almost have to start talking about those things even before you see the dogs, because you kind of know that they stand out always. I answer a little bit longer now. First of all, I thank you for all these warm words, what you said about me and my concept and so on. And that webpage. Second thing is that I don't make too many seminars. If you say that I make a lot of seminars, it's not exactly correct. And the reason is that I have the same timeframe for charging and for seminars. So like this year, I have more charging. I cannot make so much seminars because I'm out of time. And as, as dog training and seminars and charging, this is not the business for me. This is like a hobby. That means that I like to keep it this way, that it's not eating my family time, my personal time and so on. So if I have more charging, I make less seminars. If I have less charging, I can make more seminars. This is a little bit divided like this. So if people are asking, can you come? And I say that I am really full booked. That means that I don't have continuously seminars, but I have like this year, I have this FNPP charging. I have FCI and in August, I will charge the Rottweiler World Championships, both ICP and FH. That means that I'm again one week off. So it takes a lot of time. Concerning what I do in seminars, mostly as much as I have been in other people seminars, tracking seminar is a little bit complicated for the audience because very often the person who is training, going with the dog and handler to the field, you are on the side, you don't see much. You don't, I mean, the messaging is not so good. So I always say to people who are participating in my seminar, that there is not big difference. You come with the dog or you come without dog because I always aim so that I don't want to give the food to you, but I don't want, I want to give the tool for you that you can make the food. Teach you how to cook. Yeah. Then you don't be hungry in the future. So basically if someone comes with his dog and he has certain problem, I just don't want to fix this problem, but I want to, that he understands the deeper concept of the tracking because then he can solve also other problems in the future. Because very often the seminars are so that, you know, it's different because in avoidance, the talks have different kinds of problems.

You see so many things, so you can think afterwards, what is good for you and what is not. But in tracking, the problems are coming a little bit like this, that you are not ready for this. And then if you remember from the seminar and there was nothing shown for this moment, you are a little bit alone. I mean, you just need to think by yourself. So the thing, what I want to explain to the people, I want that the people understand the picture of the tracking wider, because then they can find out the solution by themselves better. So I always say to the people that if you can't participate with the dog, come without the dog and you always can walk with me. And I always explain that you can see how the dog looks like now, how the dog is doing this right now. This is because of this. This is because of that. So people are understanding the bigger picture. This is what I want to give. I don't want to give so much at the moment this tool, because if the person with the dog using this tool next week, then after next week, he will be in totally different situation. And then you don't have any tools. He need to have the bigger picture. So this is what I'm doing. Interesting. I want that the person understands the concept. You know, I have been participating in, there is a good psychologist who lived in America, Dale Carnegie, who have been writing all books and things and so on. I have been his courses, foundation of Dale Carnegie has been doing some courses of psychology and I have been going there and so on. And there was a very good example that a man went to aquarium shop. There were fishes and aquariums. He was looking in the shop and there was different size aquariums where were different size of fishes, but all the fishes were the same breed. And then this man said to the selling guy, you have put so much effort to organize in all aquarium different age of fishes. This is probably not easy. And the selling guy is saying, no, these fishes are all the same age. But the fish, if the fish has bigger aquarium, you always rise bigger than the one who is in the smaller aquarium. This is about the fishes. So if I make the seminar, I always say to the people that I want to build your aquarium bigger. That you understand the tracking, not like a model, but the big picture in the way that you can develop your dog better by yourself. This is the thing. This is like you ask about two things. I would say that I just give this one thing. I want that the person has wider picture about tracking because then he managed better by himself. Because one example more, I train a lot at the stress.

I train in the training so that I want to put the dog in the tracking training by purpose in the stress. And the idea of putting the dog in the stress is that I want to train the dog how to come out from the stress. And I want to train the dog that if the dog gets out of the stress, then he feels better. And so the dog will be looking actively out of the stress. So if during the tracking, the dog has some problems, he would learn how to move fast out of these problems. This is what I'm teaching. And very often if I make seminar, people asking from me, show how you train the stress parts. Right. But the stress part is never about just making this model over there. But this is about what you should do in certain moments and how you should use the leash in the certain moments. And then if you make all these things, then this thing has an idea. Just putting the stress, it doesn't have much idea. So that's the thing. If you come to the seminar and you don't have the dog and you walk with me, I'm explaining the same thing to the dog handler and also to the audience. And they will get paid a picture about the stress. Why I do these stress things. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad that you kind of covered a little bit about the stress. Even this probably will not be as clear as there is just no way to be during a conversation. But I mean, I'm fortunate that you have been helping me and talking about this like one on one. So I get it. And so people that are listening to what you're talking right now and may not understand. Exactly. Don't freak out because it's not that easy to understand. However, Ivo has a really good breakdown on his website. As I said, we're going to have it on the links and stuff. And if he ever does a seminar and you're able to go and see it, highly recommend that. One more thing that I would like to add. Yes, absolutely. The thing that you just told now about stress that people don't understand it. You know, funny thing I have in my Facebook page, one short video, what I did with one Malinoa in my training. I uploaded it about a month ago. And now after FMBB, I had a lot of new friend requests coming. I repeat it. So I uploaded it again. And this video with this drawing is all about this stress. Yes. And it has so much inside. And I kind of expected that there will be discussion because I thought that people don't understand exactly what I meant. And I could explain and they could learn, but there was no discussion. So basically I understood that people don't understand the idea. Otherwise they would ask and they would discuss.

And that describes so well how much it's difficult for the people to understand if you are not inside. Yes. Because otherwise you would ask. I would explain all the seconds in this video. Now this is doing this. Now this is doing this. That's why this. That's why that. But people are looking at this and they just need to see the stress and not stress. And that's it. But there is so many components, but as they don't see this, they are not able to start even the conversation. And I was a little bit like, wow, how it's possible. I mean, people want to have discussing about articles and people want to make discussion about starts over there. What are so simple and easy things, but this is so much more like something that will give so much more. Yes. But there is no discussion, but there is no discussion because people don't understand the core problem. They just see the video and that's it. And that's why I would say that this is the thing that I always want to explain in the seminars, that the people could start to see the tracking wider. Yes, looking at the foundation and the problem solving from a different perspective is what it is. Exactly. Yeah. Ivo, thank you so much, man. This was a perfect conversation. I am sure this conversation is not for everybody. This is tracking one on one. But the people that like tracking, I'm sure will be very happy to listen to this few times. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for invitation and thank you for a very nice conversation. I really hope that it gives some ideas to people who want to go to track. Right. That's why we do it. I mean, that's why we do it. All right. Thank you. Next time we're going to talk about your photos too, because you're amazing with this. Like, I don't know how long you hunt the photos, but they're amazing. I mean, every time you post something, I'm like on the page watching. It's pretty cool. I guess you have very nice nature around. You know, this nature and nature photography. Yeah. It's for me also a little bit the thing that when I look at the pairs in the nature, how they are acting and so on, I always look for the details. And it's a little bit like so that as I charge and train dogs, it gives me the skills to read the details. And then I read these details in pairs and I see interesting things. And then I come back to the dogs. I mean, it's a little bit like vice versa. The being in the nature, looking at the white animals, it's giving so much back. But it's helping me also with the dogs. So it's a little bit like, like, so it's a little bit like connected in the way. Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's amazing how, um, it must be addictive when you, when you're good at it. And when you have the opportunities to go out and hunt things down. And I was just, uh, uh, I came back from FMBB in a Monday evening. Yeah. And you had a bunch of bears already. Yeah. I thought that weekend would be a little bit resting, but there were certain photographers who wanted to have a workshop with me, uh, taking photos of bears. So we went, uh, Saturday evening to the forest and we spent whole night in the forest, photoshooting. Wow. How far is that? How far from, from your home you have to go? It's about two hours. Oh, wow. Um, so, uh, I just was sleeping like three hours because whole night we were just looking for bears and so on. So, so I hope that I can sleep now next weekend. Yeah. You gotta do Florida sometime. We have, we have crazy animals around here too. Yeah. Would be fun. No. All right, my friend. Take care. Thank you. Have a good one. Thank you. Thank you.