에피소드 58: Jan Van Maren

And you do, you do some part of the education for the helpers in, in Netherlands, right? Yeah. Uh, since one and a half years, uh, I think. Uh, first, uh, uh, together with Vincent, the helper course. Mm-hmm. Um, invited to do another one, uh, later this year. So, well, looking forward to it. Um, and also in the judging commission now since, well, the last examination. Uh-huh. So. Uh-huh. So. Uh-huh. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. The interest is not very high. There are new people coming and staying. And surprisingly, because of the membership is getting down, the number of helpers are, well, not going that bad. Okay, okay. So that's cool. What do you think, Jan, with... I mean, you were able to do one of the biggest world championships, the WSV. And those were the good times. The good times meaning you were able to use the stick hit. And it was a very normal part of the program at the time. Yeah. Now, I think we're going in two years without the stick hits. And I was just watching the tzatzit a week ago. And the helpers were struggling to try to put some pressure, if you can even call it that. But how do you feel about that big change that happened with the stick hits? Well, I feel bad because this ticket is necessary in my eyes to give the final touch to the judge how a dog is going to react. I really don't understand why they took it off because... Right. They didn't have to. There wasn't any pressure from anywhere as far as nobody knows. So, there are a lot of years, there are rules to give stick hits. So, it's investigated if it harm a dog or not. Yeah. So, in my opinion, there is no reason to take away this... That they took away the stick hits. But, yeah. Because it's really difficult, at least... Like, it's left to speculation and guess to the judge of, well, is that dog really... And... When you have protection, when you have that fighting between dog and a helper, and you take out the most important part, which is that little aversiveness in the fight. It's like boxing, but the shadow boxing, you know? When you're not punching, you're just doing... Yeah, you know, the good thing about the stick hit was... You can do it on different times. So, you make the re-attack. You're going into the pressure phase. And if a dog gives a reaction, it may be not after four steps or five steps, but maybe after two steps. It's still legal to give a stick hit at that moment. And that are the moments where a judge can see something's going on here. Right.

And, well, they took away that moment. And, well, it's sad. And a lot of... Sad. Sad. Well, not a lot, but at least some of the influential trainers and people that are having positions in, like, utility commissions and different boards of the world clubs, some of them still very convincing, trying to convince everybody that the stick is not needed to evaluate the dog and you can put pressure in a different way and basically there is no reason well I'm curious about the different ways that to put extra pressure there right because what are you left with as a helper when you don't have the stick yet well not so much right when already in the fight so and then well the stick hits given properly it brings you in in a position as helper with the dog on the ground it gives you the opportunity to give the dog a stick hit to to have for having the pressure so the dog is under you it's good you're creating a dark hole and now with it without the stick hits it's gone the helpers are getting up so the pressure is going away right meaning keep it kind of the drives a little changing because yeah and yeah there is some yelling and screaming but um yeah but I don't think that can yeah and and even then it's it cannot compare to the stick hit but uh um what about like in training do you like I mean you see we like in fact there is like our old breed program we have a title that we still can use stick hits um I wish that we play by those rules at the like in a month now we have the AWDF championship I wish that we play by the rules where the stick hits are allowed and still select the dogs for the FCI because it's a selection trial for FCI but uh I don't think we're doing that in in Holland for the most part or at least the people that you work with and that you know do you guys still use the stick at least in training or well uh sometimes you try to introduce it uh with the helpers be because getting their form back uh uh for realizing uh that it's still that you still need to bring a fight um not going uh picking up run to the other side and and stop that's that's not the point of doing protection work right protection work it's it's going to be a gladiator with a dog and well one is going going off the field right there's gotta be a punch and and it's still contact sport so giving a fight brings giving a fight brings all different kinds of situations um even I believe that even to keep the interest in a IGP dog to do it

even for that reason only the stick kit is needed because it it makes it interesting and challenging for that for the for the good dog right and even for the weak dog they get to work and try to overcome whatever pressure they can handle and without it I don't think um I don't think a dog will have enough joy doing protection without that the actual fight because it it really presents different picture well it brings something of course so it brings extra energy in uh in in the fight well but do you think now the like what you know what I'm afraid like how we were talking earlier today after training when we sat down and um I don't know what came up but when we were asking Brayden if if he ever uses stick hits because the young guys that are starting now after the ban of the stick hits they like if they don't get exposed to how to do it they like I mean it changes the whole helper work it's like there is nothing you at least in training if you know how to which is I mean it's strange to even think of it and to say it the way I just did if you know how to give a stick hit but it's true because if you don't know how you cannot even pretend that you are doing it right then then it's really doesn't look like nothing um so you do guys use the stick in training just as how it was before at least in most places right yeah yeah we we try to do the same here for sure um when you you mentioned something about um preparing something for the for the helper some some presentation tell me about this stuff what what are you what are you guys doing that's interesting stuff well uh we believe that um to create good helpers to create um the best helpers um you need to monitor them to educate them um to evaluate them so um um we're busy to write uh stuff down from yeah what do we want to see uh how are we getting there and how can we keep that that kind of level and it's more towards competition training more competition stuff right yeah first to the competition stuff um because you have to start somewhere and competition stuff that are uh um that have certain exercises that is always the same uh from there on we were going to work backwards what kind of exercises do we need to teach the helpers to um make them um the movements better the eye hand coordination the footwork uh etc do you try to make them like i from different helpers seminars and camps and stuff especially when it comes to competition helper a very often the instructions are kind of very rigid like everybody it's almost like like like in the army like a soldiers like you take three steps like this and then and then really

trying to make every person look almost the same instead of teaching them how to be there themselves and and use the quality like if you're a smaller guy versus big guy how to use your you know advantages like do you what do you guys do with that well um it was a little bit of uh um uh of the focus but now we're refocusing back on that kind of stuff so uh we selected now two helpers to do the dutch championships uh the guys who are not uh working from this point to that point but uh because they are in a fight have a little freedom right yes of course because we need that uh they took away the stick so what's left so we and and that must be a motivation for other guys to work well that need to be a motivation for the other ones to be there in the dutch championships as well because um how the selection in the netherlands goes is um there are one day a year that they all have to come together we're going to train with uh with a few instructors and uh we give them advice um of course they don't have to take it with them but um well they are that's that's of course free of choice right right right and uh we have one selection day so at that day they have to bring four dogs we near they have to work for short programs for long programs uh do they work their own dogs or you mix no yeah it's better so then you yeah so they they can have two of their own and two uh different dogs um why to have two own dogs because the pressure is high on that kind of days and because it's a sort of competition between the helpers oh it's never like it's like i would not do good at this yeah well it's it's a little bit of competition for the helpers who are getting um um the nicest trials yeah yeah yeah yeah so the best uh helpers are getting uh the dutch championships uh-huh so that that's a motivation to work hard for something at least if you want to right so this year we probably we didn't uh choose the most technical ones the most safe ones well they are all safe because they're all good but we choose for fight so so what do you like if you have one of these guys and they're about to go into the championship tomorrow or a week from whatever what kind of structure would you what would be some advice like as far as testing the dogs how like i guess what i'm asking is how can somebody really put mental pressure because that's pretty much what is left without the stick yet and be and be effective at least with some of the dogs because i don't think every dog can get affected by only posturing but what are what what is a some something that would be second best i guess

that you don't have the stick yet what kind of advice would you give well pressure starts of course only with one thing is uh how how's the helper going on the field uh with what kind of mentality is he stepping on the field is he stepping on the field because 5 000 people are filming oh i may not make mistakes it it must look good because then uh we get some more trials or is he stepping on the field for now so let's find out and well i prefer the last uh thing so if they well what's the second um i think it starts with that with the with the attitude yes with the attitude because if you don't have the attitude you cannot give pressure right make maybe yeah maybe good eye contact make like hey i'm i'm here and i'm not going anywhere and yeah um so what do you think between if you go really fast drive with a lot of like maybe make like 35 motions with the stick versus much slow down drive do you think one is better than another or it would really matter yeah i think it matters um how fast how faster you go the less time there is to test the dog test the dog i like it um and how faster you are there's always something more in motion um than a dog can understand that at that moment so if you make the re-attack if you make the drive and you're going really fast it ends also really fast yeah and the protection is is already a fast game so take the dog on the ground bow over the dog the stick presence right and take the time and take the pressure phase right and then you will typically you will actually give opportunity to the judge to see yeah how stable the grip is where the dog wants to be instead of just kind of and it's gone right um but it seems like the tendency is what is considered correct work it's that kind of fast yes there is some pressure and drive or whatever you want to call it now without the stick hits but it's much quicker than i think it should yeah right me too yeah um yeah and another typical thing is yeah you already mentioned a little bit um helpers are picking the dog up uh exactly how i said picking the dogs up instead of making a real attack with no moving sleeve and stick in front of the sleeve yeah so they are picking the dog up and they are going to run from a to b and the dog has not much like nobody can see and the dog cannot really show you what goes on yeah and you also mentioned uh the place where the dog wants to be so if if you pick up a dog and you're going to start running and having the sleeve a little bit high the dog is not going uh cannot go anywhere yes so what we try to teach uh the the helpers in the netherlands is work low with

the dog on the ground four paws on the ground uh straight back and do everything with your legs and and with your shoulders and well try to make try to make it as dark as possible for the dog yeah how um like if you were to teach a a beginner helper i was gonna say young helper but it doesn't need to be young or male or female but a beginner helper once they start to get a good feel and you feel that they have the coordination what would be some of the drills and techniques that you're gonna teach for let's say for the long bites so for the long by the the long bite is is quite an exercise um not really complex but uh a lot of things happens in a very short amount of time we have to we have to deal with different things so uh the mentality of the helper is he ready but what exercises can we teach to make it better in the netherlands we we teach helpers to make rotations uh that is very good for the eye hand coordination uh rotation meaning yeah uh the the spinning uh uh but not like not like a helicopter but stepping away um uh make a explosion of power and then with the dog on the ground and and turn it to the other way and do that a couple of times uh it it helps a lot with the eye hand coordination with your footwork um what helps in that kind of exercises because a lot of things are happening um a lot of techniques are in one time and um also very important with teaching a helper the long bite is not stepping back yeah well uh there's a reason for it um if you step back with with catching dogs for most dogs it's uh it's okay yeah because um you're going backwards sleeveless a little bit in motion but it's spray drive so sure sure you're yes every every uh movement backwards is prey drive is uh giving the dog uh more energy more motivation to to get the sleeve right in terms of doing uh competition work of course yeah yeah yeah so uh if we prepare uh help us to do competition um nothing may uh go backwards everything must be offensive you are the leader you are you are going to dictate the fight so stepping backwards is not good and i know now some of the helpers that are listening and the handlers that are listening for sure are going like whoa going too strong at the dog how do we prevent the dangerous collisions and stuff how do we yeah you know and sometimes of course this can happen no matter what but what is the what kind of drills and suggestions how do you yeah so um the the benefits of stepping into the dog so as i put your right foot in front is it gives you the opportunity to move your hips away so you you can be a small person uh with the sleeve high with the stock in

front because uh it the the whole uh posture will make it possible to to catch the dog uh on a good way and of course there are always some moments that uh that it could be more supple and and stuff but it's contact sport right there has to be some some yeah yeah and and sometimes it happens and sometimes yeah maybe you're a little bit too late or the dog is going uh is going inside or outside well that's still the moment and the many hours you you do uh helper work the better you um can recognize that kind of behavior how do you feel about the half sleeves and all the anything else besides the normal sleeve for the long bites do you do you ever use or do you advise like um like i will tell you my thing with it i i always go back and forth and um typically i like to stay with the real sleeve whenever possible just because i think the picture is very different but what what's your take on well teaching young dogs um uh young dogs must first have the confidence to uh to take the sleeve because um if you look in into the dog for for a dog it needs to be a prey exercise because if you if you don't make it a prey exercise they are going everywhere right and that that makes it hard to to teach uh a proper grip and and stuff so we are using um i am using uh with the young dogs uh yeah a lot of times half sleeves um but we try to change it as soon as possible to uh a normal sleep because you need to prepare yeah and it takes time it takes repetitions and yeah the movement is different and the movement is different the picture is different yeah um tell me about the some dogs well you're from holland you you know you know like i mean you take any campy with that shepherd and they fly for 10 meters what i'm some dogs are just naturally born there is nothing to teach they they just that's what they want to do they want to fly and some dogs want to make sure that you cannot get away and they're stable so they don't want to go in the air too much do you what what what you think about i mean i'll i'll just leave it open and and talk to me about the the different types of dogs and do you change anything in their styles do you try to make them you know how some trainers would use barriers i mean we sometimes do of course you you know um although i don't i'm not a big believer that it's really carrying over when you have the obstacles and when you don't have them but what do you think about the just that the genetic factor and then the training factor of that entry and does it matter yeah i think it does well it does matter yeah because if uh

you have dogs that are very much in prey drive you have dogs that are easily triggered into frustration and stuff and my best experiences are dogs with a good prey drive but also a little bit easy to get in into frustration because if a dog is getting into frustration he really wants to do something what benefits his own so and if a dog is a little bit in frustration and having a good prey drive they are one one one they want to reach something so well um for for me that's the best combination um in type of dog for teaching the long bites for dogs that are really in aggression and having difficulties to switch from aggression to to prey drive or something like that in first case we focus on um just catching something uh so outside the body um because um uh dogs that are in in aggression it's a very thin line between uh confidence how much they can handle right yes so um if if you though having dogs in aggression and you let them uh touch your body every time they are going to search for your body which make it in in later stadium uh different uh difficult um to finish the exercise dedication right uh different um to finish the exercise dedication right if they're not good jumpers being because they're aggressive or because they're unsure would you focus more on using some some kind of obstacles or building the confidence or or how would you try to encourage a dog that's not so hey here i am um well um there are there are some techniques to to um to make a dog stronger in in that point um if we go a little bit back in the time uh we put the dog on on a pole uh we hit them and uh running back and send the dog straight after you while it's hot yeah yeah so so they they experience uh um they experience some pressure they experience uh a little bit of pain and well not pain but um um getting physically touched definitely some discomfort and frustration that carries over yes yes and then the helper is is is running away so the dog wins there the fight i'll pay you back now yes and and and get released and just just getting something and well it uh it can bring good results but yeah they are still dogs so yeah not not every time you can have the same result how much distance plays a role in this you think like you know sometimes we say well let's do a short long bite but how how short is it becomes not effective and how long like what what kind of distance do you like to work with typically well for for me it really doesn't matter how far it is because after 10 meters the dog is on speed

yeah so um the most handlers are very careful with their dogs but for a dog it doesn't really matter if it's like 10 meters or 50 meters maybe for the picture for the dog it's different but i think typically my opinion is that um more of a normal length allows the dog to reach the momentum and and work in that speed that typically is gonna work instead of um if it's too short they there is not enough time to think about running and then switching to targeting and then catching yeah sometimes with teaching young dogs you you're you're you're making short short bites especially when you need to have a lot of repetitions so dogs are having problem to switch from prey drive to aggression uh the other way um so so you make a dog out uh um getting uh getting uh getting uh a few meters away and let the dog just come but that's to build uh to build the prey drive there so but uh you need to go fast to to a normal length yeah i i sometimes find that um when it's not enough distance and you stay for just too too many training sessions like this then the dogs doesn't even know how much the body weight changes with the speed and they they're like almost surprised of the body weight that they have on the bite um yeah and in dog sport everything is about conditioning conditioning behavior conditioning uh the exercises so that's also for that kind of uh that kind of parts in the program of course and you cannot expect the same results if um if you never train it or not enough in some ways uh we make it more difficult for ourselves to uh to change the picture for the dog then it's need to be you mean in training doing too many things that don't necessarily yes yeah help with actual benefit the end result right right because your training it's the same with you know you're not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just the old days about using the pole. I even, I mean, I love the pole work because it just, at least I don't need to worry about the handler doing stupid things with a leash. Right? How much of that is, how much do you use the pole versus free work? Well, with young dogs, we're using it always to start. Yeah. Because you need to evaluate the behaviors that the dog is showing. And if a handler is having the leash and it gives the leash at the wrong time, well... Sure. Something goes wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

And the biggest problem is you don't know exactly what the dog should have reacted. Right. Because you're doing something to get a result. And you're not doing things to look back and say, oh, he did that. No, you're doing things because you know a dog's going to give that reaction, what you can reward to improve the behavior. Yeah. Well, that's the way I think we should think. Yeah. To reach goals instead of... I'm going to keep asking very interesting and kind of tricky questions that are always in everybody's mind. It's cool to hear from different parts of the world how top helpers think about the different approaches in helper work. So, one of the things... And the idea with the, you know, the idea with the, you know, three month, four month old puppy and the bad guys in the bushes and we're playing this boogeyman and the puppy chases them away. So, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know. do you believe in that and do you do you know what I'm talking about yeah I think it started with I believe it was like Hoy Winkle or I don't know it was somewhere at some point it started to be like a thing it's like oh we have to it's a young puppy he needs to see that they can chase in a real kind of scenario they can be more dominant than somebody in the bushes type of thing well I think every dog is different every dog reacts different like I would tell you like my thinking is so if a dog some dogs need to be encouraged to wake it up right but I don't see a lot of benefits for a dog that is doing it genetically right easier right yeah I like what you're saying we have there are more things than than chasing someone away in in our program dogs are evaluated on on grips and and stuff and you can use you can use that kind of methods but without knowledge how how dogs how dogs learn how dogs react well maybe you're shaping a behavior that that you eventually not want right because yeah if dogs chasing a helper continuously continuously away and getting high in aggression and you don't have the knowledge how to teach a proper grip then you're going to have a big problem with the grips and probably the outs and the control with the handler and etc etc and I think this kind of technique

you're right it's a very common to with the dogs that are not not awake yet maybe seen it for a moment it's like oh whoa but the dogs that are already thinking this way and you do too much of that you know that it's there but you're really constantly putting them and encouraging this kind of behavior that it becomes at some point too much I think it's similar with when you make the dog you know like you put the sleeve down and make the dog really guard and bark on you and some dogs naturally they're already there but the helper that doesn't have much experience is like oh that dog is doing exactly what I want to teach this other dog so I'm going to make myself look good with the dog that's really offering but that dog actually needs something different that that kind of work you know what I'm saying yeah I know what you say and yeah that's also a problem in the sport that we that we are doing in these times people want to look good instead of enjoying to teach dog things to experience different faces and trying new things well it it's sport that that we're practicing so it's not all written in a book how to get every type of dog that kind of result you have to process it by yourself and help us are getting better with trying things and be sharp on what the results are and well just experiencing the dog sport how it should be with different faces different drives different motions different exercises the more exercises you're doing the more insight you get from a dog and the more you can learn from a dog and the better you will be as helper also at trials how soon with a dog that maybe it's not really solid in protection but how soon do you start to add some obedience components in the protection we start quite early we start quite early what is obedience exactly yeah so maybe the first couple times if a puppy is very little we're going to let the chase the the the chute and stuff and let's see if he gets a bite or no bite so because every dog is different yeah when it's in the dog we take always a moment of rest so they teach all other kind of things and after like seven eight months so when a dog when we think a dog can make a relationship between prey drive and aggression and can handle that that kind of behavior then we then we're going to start doing protection again and yeah the dog needs to sit and needs to watch understand that obedience brings yeah brings good things instead of restricting right yeah yeah and you can make a break in between exercises so it's not continuously bite bite bite bite but also

a few moments of rest for a dog so that the dog can relativate yeah and it extends the duration of the session um well yeah what do you feel about the training when now seems to be quite popular a lot of a lot of the behaviors are trained by the trainer without the helper like almost every part of the routine can be trained without a helper versus with the helper what do you how do you think about that well I have two I have two opinions one as uh as someone who really enjoys if someone gets a lot of success and look good so points wise as helper it's nice to do it by yourself yeah that's why you're that's why I'm a helper and and and I love the sport yeah but um well um as as as as non-helper so I'll give you an example you know how a lot of let's say let's speak uh exercise where you're gonna put the ball on the ground soccer ball or whatever and then you're gonna say helper and the dog switches from eye contact to the ball and then make some steps to back transport things like this do you think that has any value yes I think so yeah I think so uh because you you you get a lot a lot of repetitions um as earlier mentioned it's all about conditioning conditioning behavior conditioning behavior conditioning behavior and and in the end for a dog it's uh it's easier to recognize um the the situation the concept yes of okay yeah this is also yeah and I can apply it here and it makes you uh um you're rewarding faster and more clear for a dog because the dog knows the exercise the dog knows how to react I've seen that before I know what to do with it it knows the picture so you can you can make you can make steps what are things that you wouldn't advise to to do without the helper is there something that comes to mind that you would say that's better to be done with the helper well um the bite exercises if if handlers doing it by their own they want to make it look good mm-hmm so they don't want to let the dog make mistakes what is what I understand of course because they want to get result but well um a helper that is focused on getting the best out of the dog raising the bar always and making the dog hey it's not so easy yes so it's not bad if if dog slips half off in a training because of you making a motion or something else because well um the second time the dog is not going to let him surprise the second time so right so then then the whole exercise is improving again instead of not improving yeah so so you you would say the the typical actual bite moments yeah are better off to be done with the with the helper right yes yes what about the barking sometimes like some trainers try to make barking with their dogs and they

get it and some cannot get they get locked in this kind of play yuppie barking how do you feel about the owner doing bark and holds well I think my opinion about barking is a dog is going to bark because it gets frustrated most of the times so if it's getting frustrated because of not getting the sleeve or getting frustration because of not getting the ball I think a good trained you can have almost a copy of of the behavior do you think sometimes some dogs like I I've seen really good results with dogs that that that are that were taught by the owner yeah with very intense guarding and stuff without seeing a difference between well dogs that are teached by helpers but the owner has to know it has to be able to use the same knowledge as a helper right sure that's where that's probably one of the big problems when the owner of the dog is like well that's good barking that's good way to start somewhere and and then the dog never gets to become more demanding and more dominant in the barking right yeah yeah and I to teach dog it's quite something of course being helper it's already quite difficult because all of the movements all of the techniques you need to know then doing it in different situations different circumstances and well it would be perfect if a helper knows how a dog learn and how to understand behaviors of a dog so what we need in sport is that we have helpers that also understand how dogs learning that the dog learns with associations combined signals and are vacant with commands right I think it's difficult to get a result if you don't understand it so sometimes maybe it's even better if a handler is teaching some exercises but the actual bite work well that right that the best thing would be by helpers if you are to pick one of all the exercises in protection and not necessarily exercises as far as like the competition scenario but anything that we train about in protection what would you say is like probably the most important to you I think the re-attack the re-attack the re-attack I would agree re-attack and that's why the re-attack actually has so much points comparing to the other exercises right yeah I love how the IGP whomever thought of the points way back in tracking and obedience and protection they really seem to understand the difficult parts in the program so the points I really think they reflect very nice what is to get the re-attack to be really nice

what needs to happen how do you make a dog have that dominance and believe in itself and make that punch on training yeah well as earlier mentioned if a dog really wants to get something you can use a little bit frustration so make a dog wanting to have it really really really bad so if a dog really wants to have the sleeve and you get a little bit in frustration having the lesion and let him miss one time or two times in combination with a lot of movement so the dog is getting very excited then the dog is going to recognize the picture of getting in frustration and a possibility of should I get it or shouldn't I get it and that balance I think it's important to get a very confident re-attack because if a dog does not really know if he gets it but he really wants to have it he's going to give a lot of energy for getting it so that preparation before the bite actually it's what's going to make the bite right what about the guarding and the barking I always you kind of always seem to know depending how the dog guards very rarely you get surprised the way the re-attack looks like you can pretty much predict by the way you see how the dog guards how it barks or how it stares what it would look like right yeah it's good if you can recognize it that makes you a good helper or a helper that needs some extra allocation or something but that should be one of the things a helper must see right for making the moment of doing the re-attack that's kind of what I was thinking is like if if the dog is not showing much confidence and almost barely can hold control itself to go into the fight if it's not there chances are the re-attack may not be so strong so I think creating that really good guard phase will affect the re-attack but the guarding phase is a tricky one because we can really now nowadays we can really kind of create a picture that looks like I'm super strong and look at me barking so hard but actually even the dog knows that it's faking it right yeah so that's why we need to teach our trial helpers much better just to select that behavior and to give a hard re-attack with a lot of emotion with everything a helper has in his body just to make it happen that it's visual that well the dog doesn't have it in fact right

and we forget to teach helpers that that kind of things you know I think what happening and it's not like nothing new I mean that's nothing new that I'm gonna say but good helpers or I should say helpers that have the talent to be very good they think of themselves they put themselves so high that they don't think they should spend their time working the not so strong dogs but it's the not so strong dogs that can make you a better helper because if you can find a way how to make a dog that doesn't believe in itself you are starting to enter a different level in your helper work yeah and understanding how a dog is as dog yeah yeah I think so because they there's also a little trap in it ! the weaker dogs you cannot have continuously pressure on a dog that cannot handle it right so sometimes you have to help it through some phases and well the trap is to not stay in that kind of training yeah so they can they have to grow they have to grow yeah if they are not growing well then but overall what I typically see or hear is the the helpers that really oh I'm like very good and I'm growing I'm working up to becoming national selections and so on they feel like that's that's not there is nothing for me here I want to work the dogs that are going into the competition I want to work with the big names people and so on but as far as the benefit of learning it's not smart to just work the best dogs no right no it makes you a monkey that can do a routine yeah that's a good one yeah really yeah I really love dog sport I really love to work with dogs to do helper work and well if you're not working with weaker dogs you cannot recognize some behavior things because there is always a moment that you can recognize maybe the dog is not in his best form now and you cannot anticipate on it and dog sport is also about anticipation to be ahead of the dog what's already quite difficult like for you personally what is the if you were to have okay these are my top three or top two most interesting parts that I really like to work on regardless of age or breed like what areas in the protection are the ones that you just really enjoy not that you always have to do because some dogs need it some don't but what are something that you really enjoy and you feel really good at like top two I really like to improve

grips and stuff to teach it to make the rotations to make it very dynamic that gives me a lot of energy that gives me a lot of joy and it's also very rewarding because if you're working on it almost have always a result when you see the result ! right? Yeah there's almost always because there's a lot of things going on so dogs are feeling better if they're hanging on yeah they immediately I mean like I mean even today like Tarzan or whomever is like whoa Jan is back in town I gotta adjust now and then they make the adjustments when they can of course they have to be able to sure but but yeah I know exactly what you mean by that what about age what do you think does that how soon is too soon or or for working on grips no just overall protection just just doing IGP I mean sometimes trainers are like okay I get a puppy and they feel like they don't want to miss anything and the puppy is already it's four months and it's running six blinds mini blinds and doing all sorts of like but then you have a two year old dog that hasn't done anything but genetically very sound and has very good rapport with the owner and well I think I think really starting with part of the program and really teaching is about a month of eight nine because in the period before that and you're working on drives you're not really you don't really know how a dog is examining his behavior right being aware of what he's doing yes they don't even sometimes you're trying to look at mean at them and they don't recognize it yet right no because it's too young right and wow yeah what is a good age yeah I think it's a different difficult question to always yeah I don't think there is one answer really no I I I I love when somebody comes to some workshop with a two-year-old dog that just never done anything in protection but the owner has really good obedience has really it's not that they are not doing anything it's just the dog is not exposed to protection training but has the natural talent for it I love these dogs because within three days yeah you can reach it just catch up to the dogs that have been doing it for the last three years very fast too but yeah what would be if you like I you know sometimes what do you feel about the dogs that are not so sure in the beginning when they are young like when when do you say well I don't think that dogs good for the sport it's not like the dog is not really well

if you start you want to see some drives of course how is the hunting drive that that that's an important some desire right something because if a dog doesn't want to hunt something it's getting a little bit more difficult to get in the correct frustration and not the frustration for I want to go away but the frustration of I really want to have something so that's the first thing what I check with if dogs coming on the field what I really want to recognize or want to see because that's one that's one of the most important things what about like there are sometimes dogs that you pick it from the puppies and it's like the puppy that doesn't necessarily go to everybody and it's just a little more cautious looking around a little bit more sometimes you need to give the dog some time as well right with some dogs you need to build confidence in the start well maybe it's looking some time away we had it today as well it was a young dog and it's looking away and it's going to her handler and stuff but in the end because you're focusing on the good things and ignoring all that other kind of things so the dog is growing over it quite fast and then you see the second session that the dog has way more drive and starts to believe more in itself right yeah and then it's beneficial to get something I love the again like with some dogs that are really insecure and there is just impossible to move forward but often what I find with the dogs that are a little unsure when they do bark and hold they do the bark and hold with real intention because they are in conflict and it's a question am I good enough or no and as long as you show them that they're good enough what they're putting in front is very real to where if it's a confident dog you have to make them kind of create a little challenge to where they're like am I really that strong in order to get that same barking so in a lot of ways some of the more insecure dogs to start with if the helper is able to make them believe they offer much more right yes it's an interesting side the way to look at it yeah and those dogs are actually quite nice to work with right because they really every session really matters for them yes they're not like oh I'm just so confident and it's like yes and as helper you need to be sharp with that kind of dogs because you need to see everything what's going on what what's happening how's the dog reacting and stuff it makes you a really good helper I think when you how what do you feel ! what do you typically how often protection training with a young dog what do you think is too much and what do you think it's

not enough on an average two two three times a week two three times a week just to get all the repetitions that you eventually need to get to a certain stage in it right to get to get to certain states and to manage to really manage the behavior because to manage a behavior you need to have many repetitions in certain situations also the physical and the mental conditioning of the endurance too but what about the danger of burning out maybe not becoming so interesting or maybe pushing too quickly if you go so many sessions well if dog is running out a little bit then I think then it's not challenging enough so a dog will always need to be challenged and if you're staying like a half year with one exercise then it's never going to improve because there are no yes it's like playing chess just moving one piece right so sometimes even if you add up to that the dog cannot go further but sometimes you need to make the step to make all other things better again and the focus is not going to be on that point anymore what are what are the differences what do you feel it's different between mallis and shepherds like when you have a good mallinois and good shepherd typically say good dog is a good dog so let's leave that alone but they're still different in some ways right yeah what are like if we break down the favorite parts of a shepherd versus the high qualities of mallina which are the qualities that you like in both dogs also a difficult question because of course they're all very tricky and there is no one I don't think there is one answer in any of them no no I think so as well my preference is because I grew with dog sport at German Shepherd club with German Shepherds my preference is going to that because as helper you're using other techniques a little bit if you're used to work German Shepherds or Malinois so tell me tell me more about this this is interesting well for example the athleticism from Malinois for the long bite so as helper you're going to the dog and with almost every helper if you watch trials the sleeve is a little bit to the side of the body getting ready a little too soon yes or or maybe it's the problem that the sleeve is on the side that they are walking so not one stable position because even in the long bite if you're coming across the corner and you give the signal that you're there and you're moving the sleeve it's still prey drive again right so that's another discussion but if you compare the athleticism of a Malinois that can turn in like a half meter in front of you to the other side yeah so the footwork is different

so with the German shepherd you can recognize quite early which side he is going to choose so you have a little bit more time to prepare yourself and and stuff and in the end it's all in this but with the Malinois I make my steps always much shorter so I can always move a little quicker yeah and be ready just be prepared that more prepared that the dog can choose the other way what about during training would you say well this is a shepherd so I kind of know what I'm doing here and this is Malinois I'm gonna do it a little bit different or you stay with whatever the dog does normally but but you have to have some guesses or expectations kind of predicting well because of the breed this can be handled better this way versus this way yeah true with Malinois I'll take I'm working in the beginning way more passive than with the German shepherd just trying to give them more giving them confidence confidence confidence because the Mali they always want to kind of take you up there and you have to keep them where they need to be you need to teach you need to teach the grips and stuff you need to teach the confidence so also with Mali sometimes it's difficult to recognize but a lot of Malinois are coming really really fast but well maybe 70% is not secure of their own so they are getting on speed and they are going to make that bite yeah maybe with different intentions the intention is different yes and well my opinion is that the most well I'm happy not so many accidents happens but if it happens it's most of the times that kind of dogs that are limping after water yeah reckless yeah of course I also think even though we we always look at Malinos and me being a breeder of course I have a little bias but well they're more athletic they're more they're endurance but I think I think in IGP in ring sports it's different but in IGP almost seems like the shepherd the German shepherd has a little bit more endurance because they don't burn themselves so quickly in one exercise or what do you think as far as endurance in both breeds well I don't think there's a lot of differences in we need to manage that kind of things so if a dog is giving too much energy in the beginning maybe you should make the exercises longer so the dog is going to get used to how to pace yes endurance between the Malinois and German Shepard German Shepard can also run out of gas quite fast

if they are not in shape I think they are more that's true that's actually true a lot of times they kind of just the size the it's kind of the heavy weight they have to give the energy and I think Malinois is genetically they should handle it a little bit easier physically but mentally they burn yeah that's why we start quite easy with teaching the bite work yeah it's a mistake a lot of big it's another mistake mistake of you know when unexperienced helpers start to work with a Malinois four or five month old Malinois and that Malinois just seems like it's so awake and confident but they are not they're just a Malinois they need time right and by that time if you don't have the experience and you keep pushing and next thing you know the puppy is like well I don't know about that and it happens I think often with Malinois where they are very promising and then somehow they got pushed overboard too early and it's like oh it's a big setback with helpers how much do you think athleticism and physique being strong being like how much do you think that's important not for competition for competition there is no question you you cannot be weak you have to be you have to have endurance you have to have athleticism but as a training helper to teach how much do you think that is important well it helps it helps if you're always right it helps if you're fit and if you can make the dynamic moves and have that athleticism to let the dog miss and stuff because that's also a little bit about speed and timing and well but on the other hand I've also seen very good results with people who weren't that fit and kind of things and I'm also not really fit and well I don't know if you're not really fit watching you today don't say that but I tell you like for me I there is the you know I think it's important as who you are like what you can do like if you can jump and bounce around a lot go ahead but if you cannot then there is a lot that you can compensate and you can you know you can really work the dog in with much less movement but create movement at the same time from the dog without you having to yes so the dog is going to move you right yeah that yeah certainly yeah and and and also the whole dominant stuff and you know like where I'm going is a lot of times movement is not necessarily the right thing always to do you know no no the dog

has to move you well that would that would be an optimal picture that the dog is going to move you is is trying to to make the program yeah which you have chosen because typically the athletic guys they they're quick they're like yeah they want to show it yeah I want to show it and not even waiting for the dog to respond to anything they just go go go and the people that don't have that athleticism even if they don't want to but they kind of allow the dog to be in charge and dominate them because they are not so overpowering with their presence and movements right I mean ideally you have to play both yes sure you have to yeah sure and yeah if if you you always must have in mind the the end result that you want to that you want to get and the end result is also not a helper that is jumping around everything that's just doing the program with yeah with certain exercises yeah jumping around to get the attention of the dog is not giving you an excellent guarding an excellent guarding is a dog that want to move you away from him how often would you do like like like a dog that already has IGP3 and everything is going the way it should how often typically you would do the actual routine or you would work on different pieces how do you do you have any certain approach to this yes yes I have it depends if the dog is getting ready for competitions or not so if we want to if we're preparing a dog for a competition season we always my preference is to put the dog two months in front in program and make little changes in the program just to keep the dog sharp interesting yeah because if you're not doing it the dog is always going to try to find his own benefit in a certain exercise after a lot of repetitions a dog is going to find a way out of something and well if you haven't worked through that kind of things it may pop up at the trial right what you don't want if the trial season is over then you can well in between you can also do training different things but the dog well we have the best results for dogs that are prepared and knowing what they have to do but need to wait till the command comes right definitely compliance for sure and well and dogs that are not in season yeah you if dogs are not in season means that they are not ready for a season so that then you're working on behaviors that need to improve to get there right right right when you are into

this last stretch those last two months how often or do you ever would train the dogs when they know that they don't have any colors to control them or you will always have that yeah you know sometimes trainers like oh I need to make them see and then the dog is like oh look at me now right you need to manage the behavior so if teach the dog correctly you must see what is showing in three trainings so you need to have to work to that point because then a dog is showing some different behavior than you want and then you can act on it you kind of want to know if you have it or not it needs to happen right it needs to happen because if you're avoiding that point you're going for surprise right yes you're like well let's see what happens you don't want to be let's see what happens no no no yeah in training you need you need those mistakes to make the end result better so yeah of course there are all the things you need to manage that behavior needs on the dog how do you feel about the the bark and hold where the dog in the blind barks at your side for the toy and then on the field he has a good direct out for the re-attack but then it shifts back to guarding for the toy you know what I'm saying yeah I know what you say where do you stay on this one in my opinion the dog needs to be in center in front of the helper yeah just no question about it there is no reason right to do no for me no and well I'm not going to change my re-attack for a dog that is teached to bark here so if the dog is barking at the point that well it's not ready to go yeah so but the problem is that the dog is depending how the command is given can be ready to attack or go into the guard so you cannot really once they you know once it's a bark and hold and there is no re-attack and the dog is here we know that if there was a re-attack they would fail but there is no re-attack no but for me dog has to be in center yeah I agree I'm with you on this very much I was how offensive is dog barking if it's on the side right well that's a good question the original belief was well he's doing it because he's very direct into the helper but that's not why he's doing it and it's changing even you know when I don't know was it one of my I don't know maybe Marcus Noitz or Edgar I don't know somebody and he had a very cool idea which is impossible to happen I think but on discretion of the judge to have an extra attack sometimes it's like okay make one more attack so you can show that the dog is not prepared for it right but

it would be it would it would change things I think because of the that kind of guarding a lot of helpers even they actually purposefully are keeping the sleeve in the blind way too far away so the dog is easier to come to that side instead of having the sleeve where it should be on the guard yeah the sleeve is also protection for the helper of course right and the situation must be safe as well so if a dog is barking here and it nearly touching the helper well I think it's a reasonable call for the judge to say something from that I think they're trying a little to change it a little bit and maybe it will change who knows what are things what are things that you besides the stick it's anything that you see the direction the sport is going with the protection that you're concerned that you actually wish that we change something about it yeah I don't know if I'm answering correctly what you want but I like to see that the helpers are getting meaner so it's also so correct and also strict and everybody is happy about it but I think that's the biggest problem we have not having the challenge of hey I'm against you we need to be mean if a dog was hesitating on the re-attack why not pulling the sleeve a little bit aside and stepping in from okay now what you have yeah still within I miss that kind of things the helpers that have that attitude already before the first dog even started and yeah if you see the attack out of back transport that is not even attack anymore out of back transport the helpers are turning around and stepping backwards and waiting for the dog to come and originally it's the exercise to turn around and hit the handler on yeah very true I like this and we need to chase that kind of things in helpers again turn around and run into the dog and stick in front and have to sleeve against your body because the dog is not going to have that speed as on the long bite so instead of taking that really big step and you're taking three side steps instead of coming or at least stay there you need to go to the handler you need to hit the handler you need to have that attitude from okay I'm going to hit the handler to the ground and that's a good one and that's the only intention you need to have there and you can only hit the handler for his mouth if you have your hand in front of you at the sleeve in the correct position and it's just go you will really see changes in the different dogs they will get exposed for sure and the rules right now let's say before it was only five steps so let's say okay maybe I have to be careful because the dog is too fast and I don't have this but now you have three

more steps you have enough distance yeah but even with five steps even you should be able to for sure you should be able to yeah yeah that's that's good one it's been like how many years for five steps right and it's the it's that pressure for the helper not to well it's like okay I have to be safe I cannot injure the dog right and then when you take it too much then you're not challenging the dog no and well we must go like it again to chase the dogs yeah and it's a short so even if there is a real impact there cannot be injury when the dog understands how to I mean again going back to KMPV dogs they don't just fly like this they know that there will be impact so their bodies are ready for the impact it's always impacted KMPV yeah so a lot of I think a lot of IGP dogs all of the training is they they don't know if there is an impact they're they're not prepared to take correctly impact kind of like like me let's say I don't know how to punch a sandbag I'm going to fuck up my wrist with two punches I'm going to fuck up my hands and it's very much the same window protection like the dog has to understand how to make that and it's safer for the dog ultimately too yes so you have to train it right right but there is a lot of yeah it's the of course back in the old days there was I know because I that's how it grew up I know we did some stupid things but there was a lot of valuable things that now are completely non existent and that's one of them it's like hey okay no it's like we're talking literally from here to here I don't need to necessarily you can feel that impact and that makes you grow makes you strong you know yeah some dogs are getting stronger also from it yeah because yeah it's also a form of support yes yeah yeah that's a very good one there is always the danger of the dogs getting hurt yeah but if you look at trials and thinking about dogs getting injured well for a helper it's not his problem at that point right the helper needs to be there on the field to make a fight to be there as gladiator and of course he needs to be capable of it but that's why we need to evaluate the the helpers from time to time and set the bar very high for high competition helpers so that you know you have good helpers so that the chance of getting injured dogs is as less as possible but there need to be a fight there just need to be a fight and well as earlier mentioned

we need to get mean again we need to search the dog we need to step into the dog and well who gives a shit if you give the stick pressure and you touch the dog by accident what's the what's the big issue every bite there is really no no punch there is nothing it's like always absorb always yeah yeah well yeah when we teach helpers for a long bite we also always say okay you stand on both feet next to each other put the sleeve in front of you with with some air in between the sleeve and the body and just catch it yeah and well that's a good thing but the step after that part is put your wrong foot in front of you and just step with your other foot in and create the same thing yeah when I tell you when like if a lot of people if they see a catch like this they will see a real impact and the impact is safe but it's real and they will be like whoa this is a bad catch and it's not a bad catch no it's just not a like a butterfly yeah who it's like that's not what's about um no and stepping back in in the catching it gives also too much space for for the helper to turn it out because if you step into the dog and the dog is coming in into the sleeve you have much more momentum to get the dog to the ground again so you're stronger the nature is going to be with you so then you can put the dog on the ground and give pressure way earlier than stepping backwards and need to make a whole circle to manage it for having the dog on the ground what would be your strategy if you feel that the dog is putting these little two breaks between right at the last moment it's coming coming but if you recognize that kind of things and if you're stable enough in the head you should get less fast to the dog so not speed up because if you're going to speed up as helper then you're hiding that kind of things and that's very valuable for a judge to see so take the speed back and push more more threat in front of the dog and in most circumstances you don't even have to turn it out because if the dog doesn't have any speed why should you make a turn so the dog is coming on the sleeve we want to chase that dog away because that dog is not good enough at that moment so we take it on the body and there is no reason to do all this now but the helper wants to make it look like they are good so it's almost like you forcing the dog to do all this and it's like what are we doing there's no need and the same thing with the attack out of back transport I almost see no helper

anymore that is running into the dog with a lot of pressure and a lot of them making a full 360 turn for no reason yes no it's running in dog is on the sleeve directly going in the pressure phase that's how a proper attack out of back transport because if you for no reason have to do this then you've already gave the dog too much confidence so now you cannot change it within just a few steps of drive exactly yeah but well it's easy to talk of course from the sideline now yeah because you have I mean it really can be dangerous especially when somebody do not have the technique and the ability to move or don't trust themselves or there is also the type of helper that you know how we say well you have to be against the dog there are helpers that are really too much in a war with the dog to where they cross a line of what is okay within how you can challenge well you don't think I don't think that yeah by time to time I like to see if if helpers are sometimes getting a little bit too far in things of course the helper must be able to do things that's the beginning of everything you need to be able of doing your technical things before making pressure because if you have a lot of technique and no pressure that's no fight but if you have a lot of pressure and no technique it's chaos so how do you recognize a talent in a you see a guy that's doing helper work and maybe doesn't doesn't it's not even knowing the rules or doesn't know how to really bring a dog but you see just the raw talent what are the qualities that you're like that's we can make really good something out of this guy the mentality of the of the helper how hard does he want to work for for for it if the technique is there of course the moment of presenting the sleeve the movement of the sleeve the position of the wedge and and that kind of that is very very important you start with giving them a lot of time of course and the further you go you make the exercises more difficult more difficult giving them less time to present the sleeve but because you're doing it with a lot of repetitions they are going they are going to make sure that it's going to be okay so they are checking it and kind of things yeah the mentality it's kind of they have to believe they can they cannot question like am I they have to have the attitude yes they need to have because still it's contact sport so things can go wrong also very easy so

they must build the confidence that they can handle it for you for yourself in a big competition as a trial helper which part do you like the front or the back I like or did that change over the years for you or well like if you have a choice right now and you're going to do a big one and they actually really tell you which part do you take I really like the short part yeah because it's very physical you have more interaction yeah it's more physical it's always going to hurt somewhere and yeah yeah I really like the short part but with the long bite I really like the concentration before it all happening and the catching yeah it's nice to catch correctly and stuff but the realization all in front of that so coming out of the blind make the turn and that whole time before the dog arrives that's also very the presence I'm right here yeah and come that's almost as beautiful as the catching itself right very true because that that makes you appreciate the catch yes at the end yes to have the preparation and well sometimes and I don't know why but it always seems like sometimes the way the judge sets up the scape bite it's in a really shitty place where the decoy on the scape bite always ends up getting constantly hit on the side do you know is that a helper problem or is it the setup well if a helper is getting if a helper doesn't like it it's a helper's problem because it's the most beautiful thing there is to feel the impact of working with animals here I'm talking the impact on your side of your leg yeah you know still a little bit the same thing it doesn't really matter where they hit it's kind of have to be ready just as we were talking earlier there is an impact there will be an impact there will be an impact and you need to be prepared for it you need to like it for what other reason are you a helper right right so and maybe you're taking two big steps or something technically you're not doing right that is something else of course you need to have the technique of because an escape is not just running away right proper escape is sleeve in position for every dog the same on a fair spot so every dog must have the opportunity to give an excellent grip well everything else is up to how it goes yeah but if it's on a trial

you have to say you have also something to say about it at a trial because the most judges are going with the helpers on the field they're making the mark of the dog and the mark of the helper where are you going to run away sometimes some judges are actually pain in the ass some judges are like I hate it when a judge doesn't allow the helper it's like no I'll tell you when to stop I'll tell you when to start and it just takes away all the freedom of the helper to really do what on their timing you know it's like okay you're with the dog now I have to pay attention for you to tell me instead of deciding you know like these interruptions I hate when the judges become so overly controlling of the helper are yeah yeah but for the escape you have still everything in your own hands most of the times because they can draw a line but if you take one or two degrees on the left of it or on the right depends where the thing is well yeah you're still going the same place and if you're too sensitive for that kind of judges well then you have to man up a little bit and take some other attitude yeah it's about yeah it the the program may be hard but it must be fair as well it has to be fair I just feel that when when the judge starts to really tell when to stop like in a drive when to start the re-attack that shit it becomes just like if you don't like what I'm doing then select a different helper right like I mean you're really tying my hands yes yes that yeah that's exactly what I think so if a dog is in the guarding phase and in front of every dog you make the decision together together with the judge after five seconds I did the re-attack or seven seconds just whatever right but after three seconds you see the dog is hesitating or showing some bad behavior that is the moment to make the re-attack and if your hands are tight then it takes away more opportunities to show things what do you think about the active and silent guards what do I think about like like some trainers some judges don't like silent guard all together something it has to be active some judges recognizing the silent guard when the silent is not necessarily a guard but it's just I'm just sitting here waiting I'm not looking away but I'm sitting waiting or if it's active guarding well maybe the barking is just kind of it's very active but there is no demand and like do you have anything it's the same problem in my eyes so a silent guarding can be active as well for sure that's the whole difference if a dog is just sitting on the ground with his ears half back then it's not

active then it's forced to guard in silent but well if a dog is with the ears up and with a lot of well intensity yeah for sure nothing for me for me that's okay I think the silent kind of like that dog at the Theo Sporter had that's it last weekend it was all silent it was amazing I mean it was amazing like really really cool to watch I don't and I think it's hard for judges when you see a dog that comes in the blind and makes really let's say good rating of barking and then all the rest of the attacks everything is silent but you know why it's silent because the dog just doesn't have that confidence to go in your mind it's a tricky thing with the sport it's interesting it's important for judges that they understand that kind of things that's why it's important that judges also are still active with dogs I'm happy in the Netherlands that the most judges that are judging are also handling dogs I can really appreciate that in a judge if they are competing high level or not that well but they're still in the game they're still in the game they're still working with them and they experience how difficult it is to get somewhere because it's easy to forget what you just said what it really takes to appreciate when somebody comes on the field with their dog you know you can teach a dog everything of course but yeah the way toward an end result so would you say if you train with your people would you pick active versus silent or would you pay attention to what the dog wants or would you change it accordingly to so you make the dog look better of course for the competition in how what would be your preference my preference is active guarding ! My preference is active guarding and we also don't have the dogs to put in silent guarding they all bark quite easy the argument always seems to be well if you catch the dog in mid bark maybe the re-attack is not going to be as good yeah sure but yeah I think it's a training I think if the dog knows that it can happen they would be ready yeah and then sometimes as a helper you purposefully have to not just wait for the right moment but make the re-attack when they're not ready so they know that it can happen that's all it takes right yeah it's all practicing practicing practicing doing it a lot of times and as I said at our club we don't actually have now the dogs to put in silent guarding but we also almost never

experience bad grips in the re-attacks yeah so yeah what kind of breeds are do you have any different anything else besides shepherds and malice in Holland right now yeah there are different breeds like the shepherds we have rottweilers of course some any airbills schnauzers no not really or maybe on places I don't know it's not common no dobermans no dobermans we yes quite quite a few quite a few quite a few how are they well I think they need to focus on on the breedings so yeah they it's like this whole thing like it seems like very rarely now you see a doberman that you know it can make consistently a good long bite or make tight blind search or you know yeah well it's it's so bad because well you don't see very often very good dobermans oh it changed they're gone like it's really sad yes and sometimes it can be so nice to have a good doberman on the sleeve but maybe it's just so nice because it's very rare right and well there's some dobermans it would be nice if you have an all breed championships with also some dobermans that can hit the podium or something like that right that's the cool thing at the moment it's not that it's just not possible why do you think that the shepherds are flying like crazy like this like what is it about them I mean there is no other dog that does that I think it's also I think it's combined with genetics and and also a little bit of of the hectic that they have in them just the same patient like I gotta go well I think it's a combination of but they're still different because you know like they could be well the the shepherd they can vary quite a bit in temperament and even size and but for some reason most of them they just they take off yeah well I like to see it by the way right well why yeah I don't know but do you think something to do with KMPV selection or because it continues it's not going away yes but then it's genetically right it is somehow then yeah yeah but I don't think KMPV ever wanted to select for that no it's a practice sport so it's not really important from how far they fly it's about effectiveness of the exercise but somehow they are just different and it's cool like I know like with I mean even with my dogs with breeding you know like eight week old puppy I can let it from the one side of the building let them come for a tug and you know if they want to fly or no even though they can't but you can

see ! they're trying to make the effort so it's for sure genetic but yeah the the chepards it's interesting that they're just I mean really they just go pow yeah and it's like the and the grip is always solid and it's always you know like I mean I'm sure there is hectic dogs and nervy dogs and chewy and yeah that's a way of teaching of course as well so well do you take any any any of the techniques or anything from KMPV training not really no right not really no not really we have of course I don't know how many KMPV clubs of course yeah it's a profession I mean it's really you can find them everywhere but I like the beauty of the details from IGP and yeah it never it was never attracted it never attracted me to go to KMPV to work their dogs it's a very quick turnaround it's like yeah it's different it's just different what about ring sports are they it's like mondi ring anybody doing it doesn't have my focus to know all that kind of thing so I don't know how many or how popular it is I also even don't know but well if I talk with some people around me some are really like the the the the more conversations yes what about PSA PSA is starting to be really popular all over the place I mean here it's definitely a lot of people are involved in it well we have KMPV right so yeah yeah there were few times that there was attempts to start KMPV serious attempts over the years but never never happened it's not a well it's a different world I think yeah yeah just as you said like if you compare it with what we are doing that well it's completely different maybe more in the nature of the dog because we are trying to manipulate a lot of things back to IGP now how much like most people up to certain level they just want to do protection and don't really understand that having a dog listen to them that they can do good obedience will help them in the protection too is how are the people the trainers in Holland do they also like here getting excited about protection protection protection no it's more multiple phases yeah and I think it's important yeah for sure I think it's important I for example at the Saturdays I'm the whole day at the club in the morning we're going to

track at noon we're going to start close before noon we're going to start obedience and after after the obedience we're going to do protection work most of the time we're finished at 4 o'clock in the afternoon or 4.30 or whatever that's so classic European style I remember my time in Belgium that was you know and every Friday I'm looking forward to the Saturday for a full day of dog support and well I can get a little bit frustrated if for example on evening or something if people showing up at 8.30 doing quickly bite work and leaving because wow I think it's part of the sport yeah that like I know right now if we say well I'm going to work the dogs and you choose if you want to do obedience or protection or boat or make two protection trainings most people will be like I do two protection trainings I don't do obedience I'm not understanding how much how it's important to have obedience and even even the fact to to do on the same place obedience and protection and yeah because if you're never doing obedience the dog is automatically going to coming wild yeah for protection for protection so yeah I really like the classic European weekend is that is that not nothing what you miss sometimes here in the States I do I do you know it's different I don't know I'm saying I do but now I'm thinking a little more and yeah I don't know I don't even believe there are too many clubs left in Europe that are still having that structure I think Europe I mean a lot of the clubs are kind of the same like well there is a helper and that helper now charges money for the people to train with them and it's not it's not like the club kind of how it used to be but maybe maybe it's different in some places as you say but yeah I mean I remember way back in it was you know just as you said when it's the weekend and it's time to go training it's like that's your day and it kind of it has all the things like yes we'll do tracking we'll do obedience we'll do protection we'll have lunch or we'll have the beers after or you know which is which is also important to evaluate the day and well the good thing about to see all the faces at one day is a little bit dedication but also to just to see the dog sport how it really is and learn from each other and yeah how how many people typically like active people in in your club for example what what do you think 15 16 yeah that's a lot that's well yeah that's cool yeah it can be better

so but yeah sometimes you have if you have too many people it starts to you start to feel the rush right and some dogs some people don't do well in this kind especially when they are quite new right because if you're rushing you're going to be a little bit you're stressed anyway and that kind of makes it so do you have are you training anything right now you you're on no no no I I'm not not yet a dog handler I have my own work of course and beside that I put a lot of energy in the helper work so what are the chances do you think for the stick hits to come back how are people talking in Holland I think in Netherlands the only way to get tickets back is to start an organization outside of FCI right otherwise there is well is the RSV2000 Helmand do they do tickets I don't know I want to think that they do but I'm not 100% sure are they FCI affiliated I don't know I think they gain they gain affiliation so that means they have to follow so maybe yeah you're right so yeah what yeah what about the prong collars and electric collars what's happening in Netherlands now well they are I know there was like this moment two years ago and kind seemed like it got under control but now they change and there is a ban right there is a yeah there is a full ban of it prong collars electric everything right yes so what is the using it what's the what does it say like you can have it but you cannot use it or which is crazy right yeah it's it's not illegal to have it but for using it yes it's forbidden and if they do you know the actual rules laws like if somebody not not not as exactly I know a few key people are that got in trouble or got in trouble yeah and well the official rules are as I know is that they take the dog from you and you have to pay a very high bill what can goes up to 20,000 euros something like that so that are quite hard consequences yeah how much they are reinforcing how much they are watching or people watch themselves or how does it go yeah like I know when people come and train with us here and they are just you should not use it in the Netherlands right well they are checking they are checking so and so how does training look like if you

if you never have to use it how do you compensate for that well you're going to start with associations with leashes and signals way earlier as before so for every behavior you try to teach it already with a signal so the picture is more clear afterwards and well the classic conditioning and and the repeating in some ways it does make you a better trainer for sure yeah but you think there are disadvantages to not having those tools well if my personal opinion if you teach an exercise correctly there are no side effects for correctly using prong collar or something or something yeah it doesn't matter what but if you teach an exercise or behavior correctly and give it enough repetition that a dog really understands what it has to do but takes opportunity out of a situation for his own advantage and you give a correction the dog should go immediately in the correct behavior again which you can reward again yeah so well and I didn't see any side effects of that kind of things was there any opposition when they tried to make the restrictions the bands yeah they did but I think the at that situation the KMPV trainers didn't help with the style and the type of like they are pretty hard and I think they did not help to defend that right no they did not help because they were on television show hidden television so there was one guy with the camera and well been to one of the worst places I think and it was on national TV so everybody saw it and yeah that's not supportive for the sport yeah it's unfortunate yeah but when a ban is coming it's always the question how many attention you must give it so if a lot of people are going into protest maybe you get the wrong attention yeah so it's a very difficult discussion in the states they try all the time but I don't know somehow we have from different like pet trainers hunters sport trainers and we kind of at that time we come together and we say hey no not everybody agrees with that and the politicians in the beginning they're like oh yeah let's make the ban because it seems like everybody wants it but the moment they see that it's not everybody then you know politicians they're like they don't want to be liked from every side so they're like okay this is not something we decide yet and that's been the case for many years now

and I think I think we're getting even stronger to protect how we train here do you feel that it could change back in Europe or it's not possible anymore no I think also the politics have to work so hard to get it through the ethical discussion that they probably get to change it back will be not killing them but that will be not good for their career so that's yeah yeah I can see that it's crazy what about IGP as a whole do you think that's gonna get banned well in the Netherlands it depends what Germany is going to do yeah Germany is always a big factor yeah that was the cool thing what they did Matthias with the UNESCO that was very cool I had him on my podcast last year and he already was working on it but he didn't want to make it public on the podcast because it was still in the process but he was like something cool and that was big and also it seems to be on the right time right just getting it's getting a discussion now in Germany as well so I think the what happened in Austria I think once it happens in one country there will be another country I don't know which one but I'm sure there will be another country I wouldn't be surprised if it's Finland or one of the take a while yeah but that's the difficult part with the sport because it's like well we're trying to make it so okay we take the tickets away we take this away we take this away no matter what we do it's not going to make those people happy they still will want to cancel it they still no matter what they will want to cancel it so my thinking is we must just enjoy and defend it as much as we can then keep washing down the program to try to make them happy because they will not be happy they will never be happy and and it's not just IGP I mean they're going after agility they're going after everybody but IGP seems to be the the big torn in their eye and so Holland is it's crazy because really two years ago it seemed like you had it in control but then as you said like it's very easy to show some bad training and the bad thing is like that bad training didn't stop did it

no right that's the problem it's like well we're making a ban just to feel good but we don't change anything and the only way I would think you can change it is if you go after individual person that does something bad instead of saying everybody cannot do that yeah and probably I don't know how many times it happens happens but I also believe in collective education so nice organized days with out of the head organization with practicing so not only theory but also practicing on the field improving the techniques and learning how to do better and learning how a dog how you teach a dog to do something instead of forcing a dog doing something or you must have a plan to train your dog and well tough one it's too easy to go on the field and say well we see what's going to happen so right now if I fly to Netherlands and I have electric collar in my suitcase that's no problem but if I walk in Amsterdam with electric collar on my dog that's not a good thing no and you think some cop or somebody will stop me yes very crazy that's life now these days yeah and unfortunately as you say probably irreversible which is I don't know we are working here very hard making even different studies and showing different things and really really standing our ground and there is enough evidence but but nobody is using it yeah so there is a mutual goal right is the German Shepherd Club bigger than anything else kind of like everybody yeah the German Shepherd organization is the biggest followed by the all breeds and then I don't know how big do you think the Malinois community it's not so big we're not here either we have a national championship with like nine dogs or something like that well the German Shepherd are not much better like 20 something but well what about the Belgians do you keep do you follow how things are in there not so much not so much not so much but it's funny in Belgium it's always the same persons are popping up again true true yeah I don't know man it's sad like it's sad as I was saying like it's so crazy when people come to train here from Europe and even they are just so afraid and so that even here they kind of watching look around and it's like oh somebody taking a picture or you know and we are completely the opposite we're just like

which can create a big problem for somebody like me going in Europe and not just not thinking at the moment because because I would put a prom collar and I would take my dog to town just yes you know just very normal and it is you know so the helpers here in in the states what is their method for qualification and yeah it's very different from clubs to clubs so like like let's say the competition that's coming the old breeds in May they basically select they announce and then helpers that want to try they send their resume and then there is a you know a committee a team that looks over and hopefully they have the knowledge to decide well these few helpers are good so that's one way to do the USCA the biggest the German shepherd club they have a very serious program as far as selecting helpers and just because they have a lot of numbers they have a good number of good helpers always for competition in the Malinois we've been trying for quite some time in the last few years there was a big push to have you know some like we have a helper committee and helper program but for some reason the club just had so many problems it's sad because again we're like 300 people and we cannot agree on who's going to lead and where we're going so the even though there is a idea and there is good people standing behind the program with the helpers it's overshadowed by all the problems organizations having and that's bad I'm sure one day it's going to take off because there are again there are few of the people that are in the helper committee and there is the knowledge is there and the people that want to is there it's just that yeah the club itself is going through a lot of struggle and 300 people and we can get along which is normal but we don't need to get along we just need to follow rules and yes and if it started probably it it gets almost automatically through yeah right now it's it's very polarized and it's like everybody is against like it's like five people against these five people against these five people and it's like we need to reset we need to like this this cannot go on it's not good for nobody but I mean that's the idea I think we will get there as long as there are still competitions that's the thing like I wouldn't be surprised if all of a sudden as you said Germany out of nowhere some political decision comes and next thing you know there is no more

world championships on the other hand this might not be a bad thing because that probably is the only answer and the only reason that the sport people will get forced to start a different organization that is not FCI related but as long as there is FCI I don't think even though everybody complains it's not easy to start the organization like this it takes a lot and yeah it's a it's a company yeah so yeah well we take some good rest it's been it's kind of hot now Florida it's different different from being in Netherlands yeah true what do you think when you come here how is it I mean the level of training the level of dogs comparing to home like what do you think it depends where you're going right depends where you're going I wish we have more clubs focused on in getting better better dog training better methods better understanding how make things happen at home or here at home yeah well it's the tradition probably too no yes yes yes so there is trainer and people are getting pushed by a trainer and that trainer is instructing four or five people at the evening and that's it so people are taken by the hand and told to do something instead of forced to think by themselves to create something by their own and yeah of course there are some places that is doing very good but the traditional thing yeah I think it's more expensive on top of everything else but it's just more expensive to do the sport here because everything is so far apart just to travel to go to somewhere to track for example or to go to a helper that has decent knowledge that you know that it can really help you sometimes people drive man I mean two hours is nothing two hours is super easy and two hours you'll be in Belgium or France if you want to you know but yeah we don't have to pay for helpers as well right right so at the club they pay they pay contribution they pay contribution and well they can track and they can do obedience they can use the facility and yeah at the clubs they have a helper they can use the helper most of the times do you still have enough tracking like I I know like in Belgium I remember I mean back when I lived there there was there was so much and now I think there is just houses like from I remember there was separation

from one little town to another town now it's just it's back there is no yeah how is in Netherlands do you still have room we have we have tracking fields yeah we have tracking fields not so much as any past but we still still okay we still yeah and the farmers do you have people have to like here if we go tracking we have to make sure that you're in good terms with the farmers because they will I mean they have guns they're not joking around it's like what are you doing on my field what is this it's what are you putting on my field here yeah well it's not that serious at our side of course but it's also farmers yeah to stay in contact with them yeah can we do this or that and we have an event maybe use your field and with the club that you have is it like do you guys pay rent or is somebody's place or no no it's we pay rent for the facility and it's like the community or the yeah no we have our own place so so we have our own place so but who like the club owns the place or not owns the place they rent yeah yeah a form of renting it from from the local like the Hement house yeah right yeah I don't know what is in English but that's kind of like some local government right yes the city government yeah yeah yeah that's cool that they like here is problems this is that's why we all pretty much everybody is training on private property and it's kind of cool that way too when it's possible but like you cannot convince like Hillsborough County to have a dog training field that is just not going to happen it's all anything but that that just and again it goes back to tradition there is no like they will just look at you like dog training club like what are you gonna do cool man I'm looking forward to the next two days because this is gonna be me too it's the last stretch for getting ready for the competitions and yeah thank you for doing this you're welcome we go back to training all right guys you