Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 25: Hari Arčon

the small one and it was a little bit, a little bit, we have this privilege. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. This is a, I think in a lot of countries is like that. When you live right at the border, you have that luxury to, to be allowed to go because you, you actually have family probably on the other side too. Yeah. Because after the second war, uh, 1946, 47, the, when the second world finished the Americans, they make the, the border and they took the white color and they enjoyed the sign. That's the line. The line. And so this is Italy. This is Slovenia. And this is who will come to the Nova Gorita for the World Championship this year. They can see this, uh, this, uh, this, uh, these things. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. I remember. Yes. Yes. I actually have seen it. I have a picture on, of this. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and, um, the other thing that I know that we haven't really talked about, but I mean, you, you also did helper work on, on a big championship, right? Right. Uh, I was a beginner in that time. And I, I learned the helper work in Italy with one. My mentor was, um, was, uh, uh, Slovenian, uh, man who live in Italy in Italy. And it's like, was, uh, very active in the dog sport. And for us, because in my region was the dog sport, no development was just my father and something, you know, it was more, uh, East part Ljubljana and, uh, around, but my, my region was very poor. So we moved to Italy and trained, uh, we trained in the dog in Italy. Uh, but in the Slovenian part of Italy, because we, we still have, uh, mini rounds, Slovenian mini rounds in Italy, and we have Italian mini rounds in Slovenia. So, uh, I, I drive every day, kilometers for training. Crazy, crazy dog people. And, uh, yeah. Um, uh, this was between 1987 to 1989. Then I, I was, uh, involved in the military, uh, period for one year. I was still Yugoslavia, you know, and I was senior in the, um, in the military, but I was all the time involved in the dogs, because we have dogs for the security service for, uh, for the magazine of the armies and all these things. So it was a a good experience. And in this time we have, we had the German Shepherd and the Sharplonina Shepherd. So you have to, you have to, I, I, I know the dogs because we, we lived in the same region. So I, you know, but these are, uh, basically like a mountain type of dogs, right? Like the Caucasian, like they're tough herding guard dogs. Yeah, because we, we was, we was in big, uh, wood and it was four kilometers of area to, to, to protect, you know, it was one military and dog, military and dog. And this dog

was, was very, very strong. No prey drive, but direct guarding to the person. Badass. Yeah. Oh, wow. So, and, uh, I finished this period and I came back and then we'll start the war in ex Yugoslavia, 90. I remember I was in Prague with my father. We compete in one chassi tournir and start the war. So we, we come back then. It was, uh, this short period, three months, four months, a little bit of, uh, fair and, uh, and everything, you know, and then, uh, yeah, in 1992 was the world championship in Canada. And that was a, uh, the WSV, right? The WSV was first one in 1989 in Maribor. Okay. So that was a European championship or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think in Maribor Germany there was the first one, the world championship and the second one was in Maribor in 1989 and 1992 was the FCI world championship in Ljubljana. Bert Ertz won. Right. That's right. With Lex. With Lex. Lex. That's right. Wow. Man, he was so young back then too. Like I was, I was 21 in that time. Wow. In 1992 was the world championship was around 80 and something dogs. So the FCI, uh, ran from one competition to the, the, the, the equipment from the helper was the, from trouble, you know, in that time all, uh, later. And I remember it was three days, the world championship raining like hell. And we was like, uh, astronauts. Oh, nothing gets heavy. Yeah. So this was my, I was helper after four normal trial in Slovenia. And that time I was helping the world championship. No pressure, right? Ah, when you are in the full drive, you know, the pressure is positive. And then, I mean, you, you are very, very respected judge. How, how did you get into the judging part? Because not everybody likes to do that. It's very difficult for some people. Like I, for myself, you know, I always ask you, well, when is the next camp? I want to come, but to actually to judge a competition, like you just did, you just flew to the States to judge the German Shepherd qualification trial. And then you have to go back. So there is a lot of traveling involved with judging. How, what, what made you go to, to become a judge? Like what was the, what made you like that side of the, we, we, we must go a little bit back from, because I make it, I made my judge license in 2002, but, uh, it's, um, it's, uh, way how I decide to follow the dog sport, you know, because in 1992 was the world champion. And then my father, in this time, five times competing WSC. Okay. Wow. Uh, in my family, also my brother compete in the FCI world championship. Me, only mom, no,

mom was for, to take care about the dogs at home. And, uh, yeah. Um, interesting is this, you know, uh, um, I made in this time, my training fields in, uh, close to the, close to the border, it's still working. And it's time come a lot of, a lot of dogs in, for the training, you know, soldier, showed, uh, dogs from like Rottweiler or show dogs like German Shepherd. And it's time I was also helper for the, some different care room, etc, etc. And, uh, I remember it was one evening and I say, now I have to stop this. Uh, because in, I, I take the decision, I will not train dogs for seven points. I want to see and understand the quality. And, uh, I build up a new group of the competitors. And it's time I train a lot of new people, new, become from nothing with the first dog. And I bring these people to the world cup different or Doberman or FCI or WSC. And, uh, I start to follow a little bit of philosophy and I still have this philosophy of the uh, call now they are old, but from the people, from the judges with a lot of, a lot of experience. One of these was like, it's your green Roman in Italy, Gunther Diger, Hanson, you know, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I follow this, this, and I can tell you now I really understand the point of this philosophy, you know, it's, it's not easy because, uh, today it's more, but also in this time was a lot of influence, positive and negative influence of, uh, of, uh, how, how, what is good and what is bad. And, uh, then in 2001, uh, I, uh, organized the world championship in Nova Gorita, the first one FCI. I was around 30. That's time. You. 31. And, and. And nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody believed me. And they say, you are too young for the world championship. I say, no problem. Right. And then you did, I mean, how many times you, you, and I mean, there was quite a few championships in Nova Gorita and this year again, you're making it happen, right? Yeah. It was 2001, 2006, 2016. Right. And 2012 was what, Universal Ziger, called German Shepherd. And this one is, uh, happened, you know, because this war in the, the plan was in Moscow. And then FCI asked me if he can do in Nova Gorita. I say, okay. Hmm. Hmm. So it's a little bit extra date, but yeah. I'm sure it's going to be a great event. Now, now you, you've done it so many times that you kind of know. Always same people from the beginning. That's perfect. Always the same people. That's, that's the thing. Always the same people. I mean, it's, it takes, it's difficult. What is the hardest thing when you organize this kind of competition?

I know, no matter like, I mean, you have a very nice area and opportunities, but it still has to be difficult to make the organization, right? The hardest thing is to have people which you, you can trust around you. I have Miran Marsh. Yeah. Our president of the working commission. I have Sasha Cvek. He's a guy who, who was 2001, 2006, 2016 and 2023. And Miran same. And I have people around, you know, when, you know, when you make a good job and you respect the people and you respect the sport, the people don't forget this. Okay. Don't forget. Like, don't forget wrong things or bad things, but also some good things. So it's, uh, after I think all these events, we have also a position to do, you know, it's a little bit different. So I remember the first one or this one. It's yeah. But the people, they are important because when you make a deal, when you decide and you take the decision, you must be a hundred percent, these people will do. And then you have the extra bonus because of the football team and everything, right? Like how tell, tell everybody, how are you still involved with the, with the football in, in there? Or no, I, I make the step back after eight years. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I took the club was on the, on the points to bank route. And I put the dog sport philosophy, you know, our philosophy, discipline, focus, training. But for the football player, sometimes it's, it's too difficult to do. Our mentality, it's a little bit different because, you know, my, my opinion is our sport is an individual sport. But anyway, anyway, anyway, the dog, the, the, the, the football is, we say it's a team sport. It's, it's an individual sport. Yeah. It's still. Everyone take care about himself. And to put everything together is not easy, you know, and this is same, like put together the, the, the dog and the person, the helper and the trainer. And also in the nationals, you know, um, when you have 100 dogs in concurrence is one way, when you have 10 dogs is different way, you know, and the people, they smile together, but they hate together. You know, right. Right. Right. Yeah. This is human. This is human. This is, this is human. Yeah. This is normal. You know, you also did a, uh, with, with a giant schnauzers, right? Like something. Yeah. We, we made one championship. Yeah. But this is not my, they just asked me to do it and we organized, but I have nothing to do with the giant schnauzers. Okay. So 2002, you, you, how long is in Slovenia to, to become a judge? What is the, what, what does it take? Minimum three years to five years impossible before three years impossible.

So I start, uh, I think in 99, something like that or 98. Yeah. And then I finished in 2001 or 2002. I, I already don't remember. But after, uh, after, um, um, my, my, my, my big experience, my big experience to understand the body language and how the dog feel and how the dog, they work was my experience in the special force in Italy, I work, uh, with the, um, in the special force, uh, like, not like policemen, but from outside for 10 years. Oh, wow. Really. Okay. And we really train dogs for the, for the real mission. They have to. Yes. And this, this is, this is, this is all the time in my head, you know, it's, um, the, um, if the dog is real or is fake. If the exercise is, uh, if the behavior of the dog is real or is fake. That's very cool because yeah, that's cause you, you, you directly experience, you know, yeah, what, what we are doing. You remember, uh, uh, it's, um, you was, you was completely let to care. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You judge me. Of course. This is for me. This was the first time. Uh, I think that was the first time you judge me. That's when I won the world championship. Yeah. It was in this hippodrome. You remember? Yes. But what I remember mostly was the, the helper work at the time. Like it was a little bit difficult to. I think it was altogether a little bit, um, uh, uh, a wrong mix. You know, the, the field was, the field was very heavy, difficult. The helpers without any experience. Experience. The dogs was, the dogs was some really good dog stuff. Remember? Yes. So you've judged like how many, I mean, I don't think you even know how many world championships you've judged. Because I know you've judged at least one time every big one, but I'm sure that it's, I mean, it's quite a few times that you've judged the world championships. FCI, FMBB, uh, um, the other breeds for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boxer, Rottweiler. Which is your favorite part of, of like the judging? What do you like the most to judge? I mean, I know. Protection. Yeah. Protection, tracking. I evaluate tracking and protection a little bit in same, same, same way. Um, uh, protection, of course, because, uh, you know, it's, uh, I was helper for many years. I trained dogs. So I have, and I hate tracking. I hate tracking in the beginning. I put a lot of energy. I train my dogs and in Sevilla, I remember I get 100. I hate tracking. So from hate tracking to 100, it's a long, long way, you know. But I understand many things, many things in this, uh, in this period. But, so it's, um, you know, tracking, it's in one side you have a field or a meteor condition or field condition who, who always make one kind of question.

And this question is, are you able to do it? And the protection is a little bit similar. You know, you have a helper who put a little bit of pressure or also make a question and say, are you able to do it? And the dog must give answer. Right. And this is the way of philosophy. Like, between, obedience is okay. It's not my favorite. I, I, I'm not, for example, if I say, okay, protection, tracking, or protection, tracking, and, uh, you know, obedience. Because the obedience is, the obedience is more of a orchestrated thing that tracking and protection, you really, you're kind of looking for the natural, what, what is, what is in there, in that dog, right? And you have, like right now, what is, what is your position at the utility dog commission? Like what? I'm, I'm a member. I'm a member and I help, uh, in the, in the new regulation. Uh, we, we prepare for the, I mean, the writing group and, uh, I did also part of, uh, seminars for the judges, protection and tracking. Okay. Yeah. Because I know you. Last seminar, last seminar was in Napoli. I, I, you know, protection and tracking. Yeah. Yeah. You, you always make, uh, uh, some presentation and the, the judges camps and everything. Mm. I remember when you, what years was it when you came to, you judged AWDF and, and we asked you to make a, like, was it before or after? Yeah. Yeah. Before, yeah. Before competition. You made a beautiful presentation back then. I wish we, I wish that we made a video of that for, for our judges and, you know, but I don't think we ever did it. But this was a good one. Um, um, you know, like I still remember when, and I, maybe, maybe I, I, you, you tell me that again, because it will be interesting for, for all the, the people that are listening. As far as, uh, there was a, uh, a point when you were like, okay, you know, like to, to get the excellent. And to get the very good and the excellent, how it takes to be, you know, you have to have the dog, you have to have the training, but the dog has to be there. Like he cannot. You cannot, just because you have good obedience, you cannot, you know, the dog has to bring the character and everything for an excellent performance. You know what I'm saying? Like you, you, I will, I will, I will, I will try to answer you. Okay. You are, you are a great coach. You're a great trainer. You know, you, you, you, you know, exactly what you have in your hands. Exactly. Right. So, um, I think, uh, to save the dog sport or to save the quality of breathing, we must honestly go to the primary, primary target and primary target. It's breeding dogs with natural reaction.

So, you know, it's, um, your podcast, you call, uh, uh, training without, uh, conflict. Right. Mm-hmm. Why, why we build conflict? To build different kinds of behaviors. To search some different kinds of behaviors. So, um, I come from the, from the old school, uh, from the reality. The dog must be able to bite, must be able to show natural aggression. We, we speak about natural aggression. Natural aggression is something inside, you know? Yes. So, um, if the, if the field, ask the dog, you are able to search on this field. The dog must be, must have insight and say, yes, I can. I can do it. Okay. If the dog during the protection received the frustration from the helper and the pressure, the dog must be able to have a natural reaction. A response. A response. Yeah. Yeah. Natural aggression is just, you know, to be stable and say, okay, now stop. Or you kick me, I kick you. That's it. That's it. It's very easy. So, I think, um, we produce from ourselves our problems in the, in the dog sport, you know? Because, um, we all, I would say in different way. Uh, I respect the trainers because they always, they are like, you know, uh, uh, inventors. They always found the way to produce different picture. Right. We are artists. To create the behavior without the, the, what's inside. Yeah. You can, you can, you can, you can eat Parmesan cheese in Germany, but it's not Parmesan cheese because the cow is not the same. The grass is not the same. And, uh, area is not the same. And, uh, the cantina to, to make him older is not the same. You understand? Yeah. So, you cannot build something if you don't have a material. So, important is the red line. The red line is the material. So, to produce or to breed the dogs with good stability of nerves, with natural aggression, natural aggression. I don't mean to see with the eyes something, some dogs will show the teeth outside. I want to see the reaction. Right. Of the dogs. The, the response to have the immediate, correct response. And the reaction come from genetics. Yeah. You know, I was, I was, uh, I, I, in 1995, it was the WSV championship in Hungary. And, uh, Haruo Masuda from Japan. Right. He was sitting on Tribune. I look one dog from Hungary. I don't know who was the handler and I don't remember more the dog, but I know it was a great German Shepherd dog. And, uh, we've looked this dog and, uh, you know, transition face. Perfect. Bite. Out. Back. And Haruo was close to me and say, hey, Harry, come with me. And we go to the parking place. We search this guy. Fortunately, he speak German. You know, he was speaking German and Haruo asked him how you teach this transition face.

And now, and he say, I don't know. He do himself. Yeah. And Haruo say, this is genetic. The good dogs. Yeah. You understand? Yes. So this is, this is, this is one of, of, of point. To understand a little bit, the dog sport, you know, and, and, and, and I, I understand many handlers. They are disappointed sometimes with the, with the points of the judge, mostly from me, you know, they say, ah, ah, okay. But, uh, they, the people must start to understand what is a real limit of the dog. Right. Because if you don't respect the limit of the dog, you go over. When you go over, you build nothing. Oh. In 2023, many dogs, they are over the limit. And when you say over the middle, limiting, in, in what kind of like, ah, just more, more trained, but not natural. Is that what you mean? Ah, okay. I will go step back. You know, we have. I am. Two. In, how long you are in the dog sport? Well, I, yeah, I mean, I started also kind of mid 80s. But, of course, we did some Russian military stuff, you know. 40, 40 years. For sure. For sure. Good question. Now, how, how big changes was in 40 years in the regulation? Not so big. I think there was a lot of changes. Like I, man, it's my, one of my questions, actually. But there, but there are always six blinds, sitting motion, down with the recall, down by the retrieve. I, I, I ask you in the, in the regulation, in the standard, in the standard, you know, this is same, like we have a standard for Labrador, and we have same standard for German Shepherds. But in the standard, in 100 years, how big changes have? No one, Paul Stepanitz, written the standard for German Shepherd. But today we have German Shepherd over 65. Today we have German Shepherd longer with the backside. They cannot walk normal. They cannot jump normal. And this is, this is, this is what I want to tell you. This is over limit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Over limit. We go over limit in the breathing. We go over limit with the nerves. We go over limit with the, with the, with the training. So, in our IGP standard, we have, the dog must be able to change the drives from prey drive to natural aggression. The guarding must be active now, before was dominant, direct. We have these words for many years. Right, right. But, but, we have, after 40 years, guarding phase in different pictures. The dog who wait, the dog who are in expectation, the dog who are in active guarding, but not with the dominant. We have few dogs in the world. Few dogs in the world to be the dominant. Okay. And now I come because I, I, I, I remember your free healing. I was judging you or looking you a few times in the world championship, you know, but you have your

style. And I, if I remember your free, free healing, your dog walk in the correct position. Right. Not to front, not to back. No pushing to the handler in the right position, like regulations say. But many people will say, ah, the dog of the Balabano is not active. Right. Because they, they, they want to see the dog who push all the time. And now what we have in 2023, the, not so often, but many years ago, the dog who are with the backside of the body on the ground. On the floor. Yes. Yes. Like, like you're watching two, like if you split the dog in two, you're watching two different dogs walking. Right. You know, you know what they teach the old people, the old men's to me. And then you're watching three, when you are judged on the field, you have to evaluate and separate the good and the bad things. Imagine the family come with the children to the tribune and this child look something wrong. This is something negative for our sport. And you must say, stop. I think it's a time to say face to face or open the book like I do in the last seminar. In the Napoli, I say, we must say drastic. This is wrong. Too front or too back or too high or too up is same mistake. Overdrive or low drive is the same mistake. And we must search the balance. In the regulation is written, the dog must walk in the normal. Walk focus to the handler and no pushing to the handler and must walk in the normal steps, like the normal dog must walk. So we must found this, this, this balance. You understand? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And same as in the protection. We have dogs in expectation. Come on. We have dogs who is looking the helper because he think they have a ball inside. In obedience. We have, we don't have these in the regulation and the regulation. They are 40 years nearly the same. What they written, the old man's and people's behind us. We always just push and push this way of the philosophy, but we lose the sense. We have Labradors with the head of Rottweilers. There are Rottweilers. We have a head of Mastino. Mm-hmm. German Shepherd. We have, you know, you have, if you have a German Shepherd with 63.5, what is the medium size? They will say this is the small, but go to the standard. Right. Right. Right. The standard is always the same. Right. And the regulations, they are always the same. We have, we have to start to read and respect this. You know what is, it is the people are afraid. The people are afraid to say, sorry man, your dog is 75. You must go out. Yeah. There is a lot of difficulty. Or, or, or say, your dog feel very bad. It's over limits. I must stop disobedience or I must stop disprotection.

We must start to do this because otherwise the people will not understand. This is my opinion. Yeah. And, and it starts to drastically change the modern dog. Like, you know, I was going to ask you, how do you feel about, or, you know what, let me ask you first this, because you, you're in the utility commission and, and I always, I'm curious about this. Why did we constantly kept changing the name of the sport? Like typically in my idea, when we have a sport and you, you're in the football and everywhere. Like imagine the football team changing their name every five or 10 years. There is no, like you, you lose the identity of the sport and everything. So how did it happen to where we headed Schutzhund then? Was there something between Schutzhund and IPO? Or did it go IPO, then IGP? But like, why, why did we end up changing the name so much? I think the, what I understand in the past, okay, Schutzhund and IPO was two organizations, was WSV or SV have this part of the protection and all these things. And then IPO come out and they put one program and this was good. Okay. Okay. From IPO they changed to IGP. I think because in the beginning was the idea to put him in the, because IGP is international, Gebraushunde, Gebraushunde. Gebraushunde. Gebraushunde from working dogs. because if you say to somebody, what is your competition? My competition is international proofung. They will say, okay, this was the idea and the support. It's okay. But it's very important because the people say, this is our sport. Okay. I think the big challenge in the future is to take the decision or this is our sport or this is our competition or test or trial, how we select the dog. Selection. Anyway, you know, the technology of the Formula One, they use in the normal production with the high-level cars, you know, brakes, gears, many stabilizers, many things they use in the Formula One, they put in the technology of the normal production of the cars. For me, it's very important, when I select teams, dogs, championship, anyway, to put the right quality training method and the right quality of the dogs. So only the high-quality dogs and high-quality trainings, they come to the excellence. Right. I must, like a judge, explain to the people on the tribune one very important thing to say. Okay. Example. Ivan, this dog, who is a medium-level, trained well, and for this, get high good. Because training was very high, the quality of the dog is a medium, brings high good. Harry trained this super dog in the wrong way, and he get good. Because the quality of the dog is high,

and bring up, but the quality of the training is not high-level, and bring good. And this must people understand. So because we have to show, and to make clear information, this is the right way of the training. Doesn't matter. You know, all robot brings to Rome. Okay. Right, right. One use one, and one, it's different, but the picture is, this is what we want. And we have to say, this dog brings excellent. Because, you know, we talked before in the beginning, you can train dogs. You can build up exercise. But what the nature brings, you cannot never train, and bring, and bring up, bring up the natural dominant guarding. Because if it's not inside, you cannot build. You can build active. So we say, okay, we have two type of dog, dominant, from nature, and active. Okay, dominant, from 96, 100, active, can produce 96. You understand? Yeah. So we have a chance to be in the excellent. So you have, a high quality dog, but not dominant, because they are not dominant, it's very difficult. It's like diamond, you know, but with the right training, good quality, you are still there. So do you find, like, this is something I always, I mean, in the last few years, or five, ten years, training is, I mean, progressively getting better and better. But, it becomes so artificial, some, some, some trainers still care, about, what you are talking about. But there is a very, very good, high level trainers, that, they, they really, do such a good training, that they, mask, the, the true nature of the dog, to win, for a judge, becomes very difficult, to say, in front of the crowd, well, this dog doesn't have, that natural, character. You know what I'm saying? Because you, I will, I will, I will do a question for you. You think, the high quality dog, with the dominant performance, with the dominant behavior, it's easy, for the trick, training, or it's easy, to handling him, in the way, like, not dominant dog, it's, for me, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but, a, a real dominant dog, you cannot take him, for the training, like, 95%, that people do, with the normal dog. Right. Because he wants his way. Right. Right. And, and, and, and, and, it's a balance, between the handler, and the dogs, it's different, like, it's a 50-50, because, you know, dominant dog, you have to respect him. Right. more, in different way, you respect also another one, because you have to respect, otherwise, you have no relationship. But, you respect him, in different way. You, you, you must, with the dominant dog, you must accept. You have to come to an agreement, with negotiation,

there a little bit. Right. Okay. Okay. This is, this is what, but this dog, will, if he's, you know, it's, the dog who is self-confident, really self-confident, and he, and who is working in his nature, he feel good. When he feel good, he will give you answer. You know, I think the biggest mistake, in the past, and this is, also the part of the, interpretation from the, maybe commission, judges, people, who we, who we are, we are all the time involved. It's also this part of, aggression, you know. Still people, train dogs to, to build up the, aggression in the dog. And this is, this is wrong. Right. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Yes. Exactly. This is wrong. You cannot, you cannot, uh, uh, uh, the dog who is, I will do a very clear picture. Pray drive, or dominant dog, or aggressive dog, or natural aggressive dog. Pray drive, if the dog is pray drive, more you put the pressure inside, pressure, I'm on, I want to say to, have aggression, more he will focus to the pray drive. Because, the dog always, focus to the, the positive, uh, tools, to the positive things, to the things where he feel good. So, if he feel good to play, he will, more, go there. Yeah. And it's impossible to build up aggression, natural aggression, or dominant, with the pray drive dogs. It's better working, work him, what he is. Right. And respect the limit of him, and, you know, today, with 92, 92, 92, 276, you are, You are doing okay, for sure. You are on the podium. For sure. For sure. We must forget, 282, 284, 285, it's difficult. But to be there, so, respecting the good quality of the dog, and train him in the right way, you are on the top. Maybe one mistake plus, one mistake minus, you understand? But this is, this is, the people must understand this. So, uh, uh, uh, I think the dominant dogs, they are, hmm, 3%, 4% maximum in the world. Three, I don't know. Because some, they come to the World Cup, some, they stay at home for the wrong training, you know? Right. But the important is, important is, the dog must be, 100% sure of himself, what he has to do. But the judges, the judges play such an important role, and not, they are, just like how you said, and, and that's my opinion, and I know many judges will get upset at me, and, I'm gonna pay the price, when I go and compete. But, this is the life, you know? Exactly. In the Champions League. Exactly. But, you know how you said, there is a small percentage of dogs, that are truly dominant, that are, naturally, have the character, and, and, and I think, with the judges, it's also the same. I think, not that many judges, even, even, dare to look at, and, and try to separate the two dogs. They are like, okay, well, this dog is barking, barking active, and, and this dog is barking active, and,

they either don't see much difference, or, they are afraid to, to say what they think, because, it's, it's some big name trainer, or, or something happens, because, if the judges, are, if, we have, more high quality judges, that understand that, the judges can, dictate, what kind of dogs, we, select and breed, as breeders. 100%, 100%. I'm agree 100%, but, it's, it's, it's, I will tell, it's a, a big challenge, for all of us, you know. Yes. Big challenge is, because, you know, in the, in the, in the, our, in the, our dog world, we have, you know, full respective, or respective, full handlers. Okay. Anyway, they have, a little bit bonus. This is. Of course. And this is normal. Of course. You know, we, we must, think, on one point, all together, you know. Okay, you are, you are, one of the top handlers, you won the world, world championship, you know, and then you have many colleagues, on, with your, level, on your level, or with the titles. And, it's up to us, okay, how we share the information, how to, you know, you know, not everyone is lucky, like you, to be, on top, or, you are calling it. Very true. What, not, not everyone, from the judges, they are not lucky, to be, on the top, or to have the experience, to feel the dog, on the fields, to, to, to, to have a, also the character, personality, to, to say, I'm sorry, my friend, but this is 85. Right. 10. Yeah, that's, so it's, it's a big, responsibility, and this is, and this is, what I, I learned from, for example, from, people, who was behind me, and say, you will come, one time on the point, and you, have the responsibility, to share, this level, to other people. So, you know, I, I just, I want, to people, that they understand, how easy, can be the dog sport. Easy. So, forget the business, seminars, tra la la, Sunday happy seminars, the people go happy at home, and tra la. The problem is, the people must understand, and they must start, to read the regulation. in the new regulation, will be written, very easy, what is primary, target, what they are, secondary mistake. And when I, we talk, you know, I, I also explain, in the some seminars, I can give you 96, when I, give a price, to your dog, because he's dominant, or somebody cannot feel, this kind of dominant, and they give you 96, because take half points here, half points here, half points here, you understand? Yes. So, the red line of the exercise, is hold and bark, sit in motion, down with the recall, retrieve the dumbbell. And, I think in the last 10 years, we lose a little bit, this red line. I know the people, they are still on the field,

in the train basic position, and it's still wrong. Right. Right. Because we focus, with the secondary things, we make so big, circles about this, basic position, and tra la la, and position, and tail up, and tail down. Okay. The dog can be happy, but if his focus, the tail, maybe he's up, or maybe he's down. He's don't meet, he's unhappy. Because, if he must be focused, the body must be focused. And happy dog, focus, can be happy, but focused. Correct. It's a good question, you know. And, if you train dogs, four years, and you come, to the high competition, somebody will tell you, ah, you are, the dog, the tail of your dog is wrong. this is secondary, stupid, Yeah, but it has become, it has become, a thing now. Like, it's really, like, I know, I know high level trainers, that are friends, from all over the world, and they're like, they would have a very nice, I mean, very nice dog, but, naturally, it doesn't carry the tail, and they're afraid, to, to go on, and keep training that dog, because, chances are, that most judges, would, see that, as a, as a negative, side of the dog. Like, I, I really think that, there is competitors, and breeders, that are selecting now, for dogs, that, even when they're, submissive and stressed, their tail is naturally, like this, you know. Yes. Yes. Yes. I think we, in the, now, the commission is, a few people, in the, on the tracking part, a few people, in the obedience, a few people, on the obedience, protection part, and, we make a clear, clear, uh, guidelines. Yeah. Yeah. Guidelines, we're working on this, maybe one, one year later, better, to come out, but, uh, important is to make it, clear information, to the handlers. Because, you know, um, the, we work, we must, anyway, work together. We must respect together. Right. Because otherwise, we will not produce nothing. I, I, I never feel the handler, like my, concurrents in the field, you know, or I will go there, to kill him, you know. Right. Because normally, it has no sense, but I will, I will explain him, what I see, from, and I will not make the difference, between one and one. Because, you know, it's, um, I always start from the present post, you exactly know, what you have in your hands. I like it. Yes. Yes. You exactly know. Yes. You know, it was, you remember in Czech, you was disappointed, with 19, tracking with me. I don't remember, but I'm sure I was, I'm sure I was. And you come to me, say, look, yes, take the video, looking again, no, of course. No, of course. Yeah, of course. But that's, this is, this is exactly the point. Like, judges have to, have the courage to, but, it's not only the courage, they have to have the understanding, and then have the courage, because, you know, there is many, many judges, that have the courage, and they just, like,

okay, I, this is what it is. And, it's somehow, it's a big problem, with our sport. You know, like, I, I always, think of, because, you know, after Bulgaria, I, I went to Belgium, and then I, got more into the Belgian ring. And, what is still interesting, in the Belgian ring, is that, if you take a dog, that, was, I don't know, 1975, for example, and he scored, 370 points. Probably, chances are, that, that dog, with that same performance, today, will still score, about the same. Because, the program, is kind of solid, and you, it, it doesn't fluctuate, it doesn't change. Like, in IGP, we, I don't know why, but we always, seem to have the, the, the, flavor of the day, or the flavor of the year, or now, now this is even, you know, and then, everybody jumps on that, and we start, promoting this, a little bit more, more of something. And, but, we lose, by doing that, in some ways, you know? You, you remember, people lost, people lost, a lot of time, in the tracking, how the dog, is looking on the object. Right, right, yes. In our regulation, it's very easy, written down. The dog must search, intensive, and must, convincingly, indicate the object. That's it. That's it. Yeah. This is the red line. So, but, people push, make seminars, lose time, a lot of, food spent for, focus what? Yeah. artificial, empty place, or what? You understand? Yeah, I understand. Yeah, but, but this is where, I want to tell you something, that I, also think about, when, like, looking back, in, in, early 90s, when, we used to have, let's take protection, the, what the routine was, in the 90s. You had to, you call the dog, out of the blind, you put him on a down, you go and search the helper. There was something, about searching the helper, because, the dog has to stay, a little bit longer there. And you get to see, a little bit of that dog, is he, sleepy? Is he, anxious? Is he, what is he doing? You know? We, we are missing that. Then, we had the, the different style, of the courage test. The helper would run, away, turn around, and go. Yeah. And that also, that also played in the dog, and no matter how you trained it, the dog had to switch, from one to the other. I, I, I, I should, turn around, turn around, one. I think it was beautiful, that attack of the blind, when we had. Yeah. But not like the, the, you know, the show shepherds, this is a joke now. But when you do this exercise, exercise right, Yeah. You cannot train a dog, to do it. Even, even when they know, they are like, oh, they get twitched, and, and as a judge, you can, the dog gets, more exposed, in the old rules. No? My, my country is very small, so I can, I can, I can follow a little bit, uh, uh, develop, uh, of all this, our, uh, dog work, uh,

for now 20 years. Mm. And, um, the, the high level, uh, training, always influence, also to the low level, clubs, and the instructors, and trainers. Okay? And, uh, I can tell you, seven, eight, nine, ten years ago, ten, nine, eight, seven, uh, just normal, BH trial, was a problem. Mm. Because the dogs, was able to do, only with some, different, tricks, or, so, and I say to, my people in, my, my organization, say, what is this? Sorry, the word, shit. Yeah, yeah, a little bit, like a circus. This is, as I say, we give a certificate of BH, and I'm, I cannot sign this, because I'm not sure if the dog is able to do. Right. And look, I was, I was, I was last week, judging, I was, I was, judging a BH trial in Slovenia, because normally I don't do so many, but some clubs I go, like, you know, okay. and I was driving there, and I say, oh, long time I was not in this club, but what was my reminder in the head? All dogs was okay. So, I come to this club, imagine, was, I don't know, 10 dogs, all 10 handlers, and 10 dogs, was on the front of the clubhouse, and the dogs was there, lay down, and the guy say, okay, prepare the fields, they say to the dog, down, and they go there, prepare the fields, dog was there, they're still there. You're almost like, I'm giving the BH now. Wait, and I say, okay, then they put, they say, okay, we will write the test, we have still the test, you know, and some questions, to, for the writing test, of the BH, the dogs was all, out of the house, waiting, the handlers, to finish the test. They come to the field, they made, all exercise, all, free healing, healing, with the leash, free healing, sit down, bam, bam, bam, all. So, this is the target, we must go back, our target must be, the dog must be, able, to do every, single exercise. You say, sit, sit, where? In the restaurant, or in the street, or in the field, same. You know, seven years ago, if no position, if no this, hands here, this there, this there, okay, I understand. The handler must have, a part of freedom, to handling the dog. dog, it's not a robot, but, we cannot build, the exercise, or we cannot evaluate, the exercise, if the dog, for example, is guarding, in expectation, or he's, just sitting, and waiting, the handler, because of obedience, yeah, yeah, yeah. You understand, it all, look, it's not so, like was, but when I was, judging some obedience, and I focused the handler, he was afraid, how, move, the body, before, say, sit, you imagine, how much energy, he spent, for this, thing, for this, we have, sit, difficult, understand, our, our, our, our, mission is to balance, do two important things, so, price, the, normal weight training,

normal behavior, sit, sit, sit, and, cancel, or put out, frozen brain, you know, without conflict, okay, without frozen, because, wrong, decision, for training, frozen the brain, so, the, first signal, the dog, received, like sit, it's frozen, and then, they're frozen, and have the reaction, so, this is stop, and then slowly, this is frozen, and they're frozen, and this is, we must say, this is satisfactory, because you use, over, limits, you, you go over, the limits of the dog, or you go over, yeah, yeah, yeah, the dog, it's not, like, I know exactly, what you're saying, it's the, it's that separation, how natural, and comfortable, the dog is, to, respond to the sit, out of the healing, because, the reaction, is like this, the dog, go, poop, poop, frozen, because, stop something, in the brain, yeah, they're frozen, and sit, yeah, doesn't matter, if it's like this, or like this, but it's, right, frozen, there is, you need, three seconds, to get frozen, hesitation, there, exactly, yeah, yeah, hesitation, but in the brain, is, I always say, to be, no, frozen, makes sense, yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's the, so, this is, two, important thing, to explain, to the people, and say, this is, so, today we have, if you look, 10 dogs, nine, push, to the handler, during the healing, yeah, and they are, a little bit, not, yeah, straight, but they are, like this, yeah, and one is right, in the normal trial, these nine, they are right, and this is, one is wrong, because the, that's the, you, you, you kind of, getting used to, you are, if you are, if you are, right, you are not normal, you understand, so, this is the same, you have, 10 Labrador, in the ring, of the show, nine, with the head, like this, one with the, normal Labrador, standard, this is, not normal, this is not good, this is not right, you understand, this is, we must be, we must take care, about this, don't go, and lose the sense, what is, right, and what is normal, yeah, because we are, oversizing everyone, yeah, I mean, it's, also, we talk, we always talk about the pressure, pressure, pressure, this is oversizing, oversizing, over, over, over, or, the, the decision, you know, it's, it's about the motivation, and the discipline, right, our dog must, our, okay, if you want to get 100 points, the dog must do it, yes, he must sit, he want to sit or not, it's different, but anyway, he must sit, it's up to you, how you build, if he must, if he like to must sit, you understand, yeah, it's up to you, so, but if, if you, if the dog, think, oh, maybe yes, or maybe not, you cannot get 100, or 99, or 95, or 96, it doesn't matter, and the second thing, is respecting, the limit of the dog, if the dog is not, in the quality, able to do, 96, work him, what he's able, our biggest problem, is because, we lose the sense, to respect, the limit of the dog,

100% true, it's like, oh, I want my dog, to sit like your dog, well, can you run like me, no, no, no, we call now, Balabano, and Balabano, will show to everyone, to sit, they will sit in the same, same, of course, he will show, how he trained his dog, but, exactly, I'm not afraid, to experience, explain my experience, I can, I'm not afraid, to explain my tricks, I am not afraid, because it's up to you, if you are able, to get this, understand, Masuda, teach me, it was very interesting, seminar one time, you know, Masuda come and say, across the hands, this is your life, 40 years, put on the other side, I say, this is your new decision, this is automatically, this is my thing, you do this, 40 years, you cannot change tomorrow, in this way, you need, a long time, so it's same with the dog, when something, deep inside, you know, it's difficult to say, I will change, you can rebuild, a new one, of course, but what is deep, deep, deep, and this is, with the people, with the trainers, with the judges, education, new one, new one, new one, new people, new education, more, more, Eberhard Strasser, one time, said to me, I say, when will be my time, you are too young, okay, but don't wait, I will be too old, this is, we have to share, our information, to new people, because, already new people, are under the influence, of the social, of media, oh yeah, they have, already this idea, you know, sometimes in Italy, they ask me, what is new this year, nothing, same like last year, but that's exactly, what I was saying, about how IGP, always, like, I think it's like, one of these, sports, if not the only one, that, there is always, this new, flavor, and now, oh, that's everybody, this new flavor, builds, people on the social, this new flavor, the people on the field, tricks, seminars, a real, a real substance, the real, you understand, it's only one, you exactly know, what you have, in the hands, but judges, judges are, under pressure, because of that, and especially, when the judge, doesn't either, understand, or doesn't have, the confidence, to judge, they affect it. It's like this, look, I go to the field, okay, you know, in Le Touquet, I will tell you, this experience, I was judging, one Belgian, Belgian guy, and I will, I, that took, the protection, out of control, in the, side transport, no, back transport, I say, stop, one guy, from the tribune, communist, directly, I say, okay, no problem, you know, it's, but this, I want to tell you, it's, you know, on the tribune, you have, 1,000 people, who look you, maybe 3,000, on the, on the, working dog, video, you understand, them, yes, and it's, a challenge, it's a challenge, it's a big challenge, come, I'm, I, I'm here, and I see, so, it's, challenge, you know, maybe, in, in, in, for this, I tell you, told you before,

not too old, because when I will be, too old, and the brain will not work, like this, it's, it's time to say, stop, right, because, we must respect each other, I must respect the handler, and the dog, and the work, who, which was behind, all this, behind this competition, you know, so, I must respect the public, the people there, but the people must also respect, the, the limit of the dogs, they must respect, the, regulation, they must respect, the decision of the judge, this is also the part of, and we must respect each other, and this is, this is the way, we can improve, and show. Yeah, I think there is a, there is a, this, kind of disconnect, somehow, I, I always wish, that whenever, there is a, a big, meeting, of judges, and, and, you know, you, you guys are looking at things, and you're making decisions, somehow, by the time, they come to the competitors, I mean, first of all, most competitors, don't even care, they just, they're just training, because that, I see this one, and it's looking good, so, I do the same, and they expect, that they will make the points, because, they don't understand, what the rules, asking for, right, and, right, but, somehow, if there is, more education, on the competitors, instead of just, reading the rule book, because, just like how, judges, they also read the rule book, but they get to have, the judges, camp, and meeting, and discuss, I think that's missing, on the competitor side, that's where we have to start, to work together more, you know, I can agree, but look, the, utility do commission, every year, out of COVID, because, before COVID, was in Austria, and now, it was in Napoli, yeah, every year, fix this, seminar, and, I think it's good, to come, to join, the live there, because otherwise, from video, it's a little bit different, and, this, this year, we opened, very, very, clearly, the book, you know, not, just, blah, blah, blah, blah, and, after three days, after two, three days, of, seminar, was, very, direct information, to the judges, who was there, to share, at home, and we do in Slovenia, very easy, so, we come from Napoli, we organize the, seminar for judges, immediately, after this, for the, trainers, and, immediately, after this, for the, the handlers, yeah, so, all levels, get the, very, clear, information, so, when you know, I'm, judged, in this way, and, I give you, the information, I will judge you, in this way, so, no discussion, correct, correct, but, some countries have, they're better, organized, and, there is other countries, that, let's say, maybe, maybe, it's a good idea, we will, we will,

we will do something, also, for the handlers, yeah, utility, utility, the commission, is not commission, only for judges, right, we can, it's a good idea, we will, we will talk about it, so, why not, why not, I think it will be, very, very good, because, again, that kind of, collaboration, puts us all, together, having the understanding, and let's say, I'm sure, not everybody will, that competes, will want to know, our, our, sorry, interrupt you, our target is, the handler must, exactly know, when the, he buy the, puppy, in which way, we will follow the training, right, this is, not, the, the philosophy, the philosophy, must be one, philosophy, of the dog sport, is like religion, we cannot change, from today, to tomorrow, or after four years, because we destroyed, the generation, of the dog, we must, have one, religion, you remember, the, the, the German Shepherd Club, the German Shepherd philosophy, was one religion, they follow this religion, we have to follow, this religion, this is my, mini, thinking, and we have to, push this, so, you know, you decide, the dog sport religion, you exactly know, right, active, dominant, intensive, convincingly, path, finito, so how you develop this, it's up to you, because, the handlers, are genius, the judges, never develop, the training, the, the trainers, develop the training, right, we just ask, what we want, so we have to, respect the trainers, but we have to, the trainers, must respect, the, the limit of the dog, yeah, they cannot go over, yeah, this is, but this is when, like, if, you know, that's where, the, the disconnect, is also, when, like, you as a, judges, you know what, you're gonna look for, but then, there is somebody, out in the world, that is giving seminars, and is teaching, everybody, that new flavor, that, and, and it has no, and, and many people, that, want to do very good, they put so much time, so much time, yeah, and they go to this, seminars, and they're learning, something, but if they had, access, to what, judges, will be looking at, then they can say, oh, you know what, what you're teaching, doesn't make sense, I'm wasting, my time here, I think, there is something, to be improved, somehow there, good idea, we will, we will, open the discussion, also, and I also, do you guys, like when you do the commission, like the meetings, and everything, I know, every once in a while, this comes in, some conversation, but having, having, also some, competitors, that, can, either give input, or, or get consulted, like hey, what do you, because, it's, everybody's sport, and, it's like hey, what do you think about this, and maybe, like I had this ideas, like, having, let's say this year, 10, high level competitors, that, also somehow, have, at least, opportunity, to, to,

express, some ideas, and then, you say, well, that's a very bad idea, but maybe, there is one good one, and then, the next year, we take another, 10 competitors, so it's not like, always the same people, because, when you think about it, I mean, there is, at least, 100 competitors, you know, that are, very, very, knowledgeable, and if we have, like, I'm just thinking, of ways, to collaborate, so we can be, this year, this year, was a judge seminar, and there was, a lot of young judges, who are also, good handlers, aha, yeah, and, who made, also results, in the past, and, it's okay, it's okay, this is, of course, I'm sure, this is the way, to go, which we can, go together, and to develop, better, better things, for, for the, for the program, or for everything, but, it's, it's not easy, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's important, to understand, we, we, I don't, I don't, I want to say, to, to split, or to divide, the two words, handlers, and judges, no? Right. But, but, it's, it's up, it's up to us, how I told you before, to build, the red line, this red line, we can call him, the dog sport, or the dog word religion, or I don't know, yeah, yeah, yeah, understand, and to say, okay, this is, you understand, so we have to respect both, to make more clear, so, I told you before, we cannot, we cannot, share information, to the handlers, in the wrong way, and they don't know, exactly, what will happen, on the world championship, you know, or, on the exams, you know, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a part of, the philosophy, of the, of the sport, and I think we are, on the, on the, on the good way, because we, we, we, we touched, the very bad, moment, last years, and I see, I saw in many, many, uh, uh, countries, I was judging, the qualification, is going, is going, a little bit better, it's, uh, important to accept, sometimes also, 85, if you don't accept, it's, difficult to enjoy, them, 96. You know, how, how do you feel, about the, one judge, instead of, two judges, at the same time, or how, FMBB has, four judges, and a supervisor, so that makes, five judges, at the same time, on the field, what do you think, about that? I will tell you, my, my concern with that, like, from, all the times, that I see it, it almost becomes, um, some sort of, competition, between the judges, who is more, precise, who is more, harder, instead of, focusing, more on, on, the quality, of the training, and the quality, of the dog, they start to be, like, like, like, the performance, becomes, about, am I better, judge than you, am I gonna, see, more, and give less points, than you, like, that's how, I start to feel, lately. Okay, FMBB is another, organization, I'm the judge, of the STI, so I respect, our regulation,

this is very important, to make it clear, in the beginning, the IGP competition, is not more, hobby, okay, so, when you go to, when you, when you, take the decision, to go there, you must be, 100% sure, how able you are, to do it, it's very, easy, speak, behind the computer, right, but it's very difficult, to take the microphone, on the stadium, and, what I saw, in the, last years, the people, have no courage, to give, points, because we, it's coming, on the, on the, situation, where the people, are afraid, to give points, sometimes, not always, sometimes, right, and, this is, this is, what we have to, take care, but, to give points, it's, normal, because they are afraid, because they're, we are, we're coming, out from one, period, where the secondary, mistakes, was, big mistakes, you understand, so, it's under, the influence, of the people, so, look this, look this, this, this, this, this, pop, so, we have to, refresh, the brain, of the judges, refresh, the idea, of the handle, and say, primary is, how the dog, sit, how the dog, focus, and secondary, is, secondary things, where you can, you know, sometimes, people lose, 20, 30, 40, 50%, for, for, for, for, details, who are not, not critical, yeah, yeah, not critical, you understand, yeah, so, this is a little bit, um, uh, but this is normal, and, I, I, my feeling was, when I judged, with two judges, was okay, was okay, when I, when I, when my partner, was, uh, similar level, correct, when, when, when, then, then, it's okay, but, anyway, anyway, it's, out of the dog sport, out of the dog sport, it's normal, when they are two, if they are two dominant, um, if the one is dominant, on gratitude, the dominant is handling, the latency is following, understand, but there is that fight, who, who's gonna be more dominant, yeah, and when you go to more dominant, then you go with the less points, not with the high points, right, right, right, but, okay, it's a decision of the organization, it's okay, they, yeah, for sure, so, so, you think the direction, that, the sport is going now, you're optimistic, that, that we will, for me, it's most important thing, to have a position, in the world, not me, our, IGP sport, yeah, position, yeah, what are we, what I mean, what I mean, what I mean, with the position, our position, must be, taking care about the training, taking care about the breathing, the quality breathing, brings security, to the, citizens, to the country, to the service, because from, our, selection, the dogs go,

police, military, searching, for the explosive, drugs, because, all these services, need, stable, self-confident dogs, yes, you understand, yes, and, if you understand this, we can, come, also, to the court, and say, this is our position, right, to, to deal, our sport, will be, afraid to say, this is our position, the people will, the, another people, or the, another, uh, personality, will always, shit, or kick us, because, you took the dog, for the years, or you say, ah, so, I don't know, we are, uh, talking about, maybe, oh, the dog feel good, or bad, I don't know, you understand, yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's, it's, we have to found, our position, and our position, must be, fair play, understand the limit, of the dog, respect the limit, of the dog, train him in the way, in the natural way, come on, if the dog, have nothing, natural insight, to do, okay, stay on the couch, and sleep, right, if you have special, things, inside, like the Hungarian dog, natural, up, okay, follow him, or, if somebody, train in the way, to see, wow, how you train this, hmm, yeah, I train this way, but for this way, I need the dog, this way, okay, understand, this is, this is, our target, not, tell up, or tell down, there is a responsibility, of the, like what we do, as judges, as competitors, as breeders, like we, we're trying to maintain, this type of dogs, that, a police will need, the military will need, because they cannot, they, no matter, you know, they have their little breeding programs, but they cannot, have enough, it's, they don't, they don't, they don't, they don't have enough, and, it's another, another, another situation, Ivan, you are a breeder, and you train, you are females, right, and you compete, with your dogs, right, okay, so they already, you are, already understand, how the dog work, under, not the physical, or mental pressure, but, under the pressure, from you, because you must do it, you must go there, you must compete there, the, somebody, give you evaluation, you have to go, come to the starting point, this is one part of, from your impression, you know, I, I don't know, how you feel, when, I, I don't believe, you feel, free, and easy, when you, come to the starting point, you are under the pressure, you are like a hindrance, of course, and, and this, this pressure, you have to share, you know, I, when I was competing, first time, I say, come on, my dog, sit, please, sit, when I say, sit, just sit, you know, yeah, this is pressure, this is pressure, this was beginning, I'm home, in 2004, I said, dog, sit, just sit, when I say, sit, sit, you will sit, I was, I was talking with him, like, you know, somebody look me, say, you are crazy, this is pressure, so when the dog is working, under the pressure, this kind of pressure, this is same, in the military, you know,

or in the police, nobody will go there, to take the whiskey, they just go to make a job, and he's under the pressure, and working under the pressure, it's, not pressure, when you kick somebody, but pressure, you know, it's, responsibility, to do, responsibility, when you're working, under the responsibility, it's a different, performance, yes, it's the same thing, like, if you go to school, people say, ah, you have a female, yeah, it's a super female, you too, show me, show me the responsibility, but this is, this is where, I think, right now, it's a little bit, of a crossroad, because, of looking, about that, happy dog, that it's almost, not just happy, but it's almost like, you know, that if you do, one more healing, maybe it's not, going to happen, but it looks, very happy, our last product, in the, in the, in the dog world, is, in the, in the, in the, uh, IGP, is, the guarding, in expectation, is the same, like, you told, before, for obedience, you know, yeah, it's, uh, it's, um, it's, uh, it's, a behavior, when, I always say, if this helper, go, seriously, to this dog, what will happen? Right. Or, on the long attack, if you put the machine, who go, always the same way, how many, they stay on the sleeve? You understand? Oh, I do, I do, I'll give you an example, of this, and this is like, a very interesting, situation, because, and you know, especially like, some of the, the European countries, there is, places that, breed and train dogs, to sell to the armies, around the world, and they, they train them, very skillfully, to, act aggressive, with the gun, to, search for a ball, to, these things, that, typically, when the buyers come, they will test, and eventually, they are so good, that, when, somebody goes, to buy a dog, they have to become, now, even more creative, to think, how they can, strip down, everything, so they can see, the real dog, but this is the same, I do this for, for my job, you know, and, and, and, this is, same in the, IGP, the handlers, they produce, so many tricks, and so many things, and, it's up to me, to evaluate, if it's this, really or not, I, I, I will never go, to touch this discussion, and I will never, go say, you know, I suppose, your dog is, because I have to, I have to evaluate, what I see, not what I think, yeah, I will never do this, because it's, incorrect, yeah, but, I evaluate the reaction, the reaction, of the, dog on the helper, the reaction on the, field, and the reaction, on the tracking, so I want to see the reaction, this is the most important thing, the reaction, how do, how do, the rules, how, how does, the rule change, I'm sure that's an interesting one, for everybody, IGP3, not, so, important things, no, I'm not talking about, like, what is changing, but, how do, generally, how,

how somebody comes with an idea, well, let's make the seat, instead of 10 points, five points, like, how, how does, this kind of ideas, come, to be discussed, at the, commission, or, or, what do you think, about the points, or, I don't understand, your, I don't, I mean, think of, let's, let me give you, an example, of protection, how, how many different ways, we had so far, about the dog, making a bark, and halt, in the blind, and you call him, to you, then you had to say, the, here, first, then there was, the time, where you had to walk, to the dog, and heal him, back together, and, you know, there is all, these variations, and, how, this, these ideas, come, in place, who, who, like, who, all of a sudden, says, you know what, let's do, this, instead of, what we have, right now, you know, what I'm saying? Yeah, but I will go, generally, because, generally, not only, the commission, generally, is working, always like this, you know, it's, I just think, this is a big mystery, for most competitors, like, we always wonder, how it happens. Okay, it's, I will just go, to the very simple example, you know, the position, of the body, when, in the free healing, when the, handlers walk, with the arm, open, this, this is very easy, simple example, example, okay, the dogs, most of the dogs, was too big, and they focus, under the shoulder, blah, blah, blah, blah, so, it's, it's, it's, the picture, for the people, who develop the program, it's very easy, you know, it's very easy, to, to say, okay, we have this, what produce this, in different breeds, produce, a wrong body position, wrong body position, brings, problems, with the bags, the problems, with the oversized, developed muscles, you understand, or problems, healthy problems, so, we have to say, this picture, out, everything, what is unnatural, out, and this is, a little bit, the way, how to form, so, more the, trainers, develop artificial things, right, more the commission, must control this, you understand, everything, everything, everything is danger, for the dogs, we have to say, out, so, it's, it's, I think, it's, it's coming time, and this commission, is working good, and I believe, there are a lot of, good handlers inside, good judges, yeah, we will, we will, we will say, okay, this is a glass of wine, and this is the wine, or this is a glass of water, and this is water, not, a little bit, soda, and a little bit wine, right, clear, that's it, and, we have to, maybe, uh, uh, collateral damage, will be, something, like, you know, who was in the wrong way, will be on the wrong way, but we have to say, now, stop, because, you know, when the, when you are infected, from the virus, you must clean, if you leave a little bit, right, it's a problem, comes back, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the, and, uh, and I, you know, it's, I, I always,

compare with, uh, with the breeding, you know, every litter, or every generation, yeah, and by the way, we never said, and I, I should mention this, because you're also, a German shepherd breeder, and that, which is kind of, we never even, mentioned this, which is important, but yeah, uh, I will go to Labrador, you know, if every generation, live, head more high, uh, more big, the size more, large, they will come over, I, I saw, I saw, some dogs in the show, this is Labrador, yeah, yeah, how, how this dog can swim, they cannot function, no more, you understand, yeah, so this is, same, you remember, this, it was a period, with the, the dogs, have a head like this, in the free healing, right, Mali, they try with German shepherd, was not able to sit, was not able to sit, this is, this is something, who is going over, so, I think the, the most big challenge, in the future, will be to understand, a natural aggression, a natural reaction, a natural, behavior, you understand, right, to say, to say, okay, if we have 10 dogs, and nine, is pushing, the challenge will be, say, these nine, are wrong, and this one is good, to accept, right, this, you understand, yeah, always, this, steward, not steward, this one, this one, this is, bullshit, you understand, to understand, the way, of the interpretation, of the, of the, of the sport, the red line, what is the red line, the red line is, producing, or supporting, the right, training, and the right, breathing, the right way, of training, and the right way, of breathing. So, you know how, like, I mean, I'm sure you, you know this, and, I, I, I know a lot of, competitors, and trainers, around the world, that are, very concerned, that the sport, is starting, to change, to where, we will, not be able, to expose, the character, of the dogs, anymore, and we will, start to have, like, we will start to have, more dogs, that will have a, you know, like, you will have a dog, that makes very nice, obedience, and then, is very, active, in the barking, and has a, good bite, but, it doesn't have, the inside, and it becomes, more, more difficult, to, to, separate those dogs, and say, no, those dogs are, in lower category, this is a concern, for, I think, for a lot of, people that compete, now, that that's, kind of where, we are going, with, with, the IGP, to where, it can become, it can, start to, we can start, selecting, weaker, energetic dogs, that if, some plastic bag, flies on the field, maybe they will, actually react to it, you know? First of all, we have to understand, and to accept, the good. You know, what is good? the good is, normal dog, who do, all exercise, in the normal, good way. So,

honestly, if you go to touch, the regulation, and the behavior, of the dog, who are extremely, too front, too up, too high, too, too, too, too, it's not more good. Honestly, this is satisfactory. Right. And, when the people think, to have the dog, for excellent, or for every, for very good, and, the valuation, come good, and they are disappointed, and they search, the, the, the reason, of the, unsuccess, in the judges, or in the valuation, to tell, we will have, this kind of problem. So, it's, I think, the, the, the, the, one of the biggest challenge, will be the, in the future, to, explain, what is good. Good, so, okay, good is just normal. One time superior, quality of the dog. And, one time superior, quality of the training, is very good. But, this is superior. You know, superior is something. Else. Yes, he stands out. Yeah. Two times superior, quality of the dog, and two times superior, quality of the training, come to the excellent. And, this is, and, and, um, um, I think, uh, in the, um, in the future, and maybe, the, the resume of this, uh, our podcast is, to put people together, to start to keep, to drink together, and to, to, to, to believe in the religion together. Right. I think we, we, I think there is, to take the conclusion, of the, uh, of our, talking and discussion. Yeah. Of the dog. my, my, my fear, right now, is that, the sport, starts to become, more, obedience oriented, than, how it used to be. Obedience, of course, is, obedience is important, but, but ultimately, the dogs, in our sport, they have to show, a quality, in protection, a true, quality. Also in the tricking, natural. And the trick, yeah, right, right. But it, but don't you think, that it's becoming, more and more, of a, obedient sport, and in the protection, also, it's becoming more, of a, tricks and games, and, and, also in the protection, there are tricks and games, of course. Right, right. But, um, for this, we have expectation, guarding face. Okay, I'm, I'm gonna, say something totally, out there, in the, you know, of course, it doesn't make sense, but, but it's more to, just as an idea. So we can, put the focus, back, in, in protection, and tracking, and, and not to be, all about obedience. Um, to, and again, that's what I'm gonna say now, it's kind of, funny, but, just so you understand, what I mean, like, like, even with the points, if we say, obedience, instead of being 100 points, is 80 points max, but protection, is 120 points, because, it is important for us, that, part of the work, you know, of course, not to change it like this, but just to give you an idea, that, you have three disciplines, right, the tracking, the tracking is, normal track, you know, not, we don't talk about, um,

a green grass, golf, right, yeah, yeah, it's selective, okay, you have a protection, if you evaluate, trust me, if you evaluate the protection, in the right way, you, you make the difference. right, so you think you have enough. And, and, and if you evaluate, the obedience, in the right way, yeah, it's coming different. So, you think that we have, and, at the moment, how, I, I, T, P is, especially as we took, the stick hit away, we have enough, opportunity, to, to still, expose the dog, true nature. Yeah, yes, because, but we have, must be care, we must take care about this, it's not easy, because, for the moment, they are, the dog, still in the, under the influence of, yes, okay, but, I think, with the right, uh, uh, uh, balance, between education, uh, on, uh, on the, uh, education, on the, on the teaching, and training dogs, and education, on the, uh, breedings, I still believe, I'm, one of the old, thinking, the dog, our sport, sport, it's, breeding, and, and, uh, training, together. Right. the people must understand how big responsibilities to say, when you say, this dog is excellent, this is a big responsibility. Right. because, behind this, behind this, can be, 20, 40 liters, immediately, and, uh, uh, uh, uh, can be, something wrong, or something, you produce good. We know, we know, I, I, this is my experience, there was, in the past, some dog push. Yeah, yeah, yeah. After this, we produce nothing, you understand? When you, when you have, 100, uh, uh, uh, liters, uh, in all over the world, you produce five, five, uh, hundred, uh, problems, you understand? Right. No, and that's the, that's the concern, that's the fear, that, that things can, go that direction, and really change. So, but, but, but we, if we go a little bit back, and we evaluate the natural, the natural reaction, the natural behavior, the natural, uh, solving solution, we go back to the nature, back to the nature. How, I have this idea, that, I mean, you know, like I, just like everybody, we all have ideas, and sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad, but, now that we, we have the stick hit, away, it's difficult, it makes it, it makes it, more difficult, to evaluate, right? There is no question, about that. Can it be evaluated? For sure, but is it more difficult? Yes. How, how, is it, even a possibility, to change something, in the way, the protection, routine, is set up, to where we can expose, the dog? for example, you know that if you, I mean, you know very well, because you train, with military dogs, and everything, like allowing a dog, to have a, more of a passive bite, so it's not that the helper, just puts the dog, and just takes them, on a big ride, and it stops, but slows it down, a little bit, or maybe, keeps them, on a still bite, and then you see a dog, that is here, and it's like,

are you comfortable? Are you concerned? Is the training, is going to break? You know, giving that, more time, for the judge to, and the helper, to expose the dog. Like, is that something, that you guys think of, or not? Because you know, if you put a dog, on a bite, and they don't get much. You understand, you understand, you know, we have one, very easy conclusion, also in the group, and, but this is, maybe a little bit more, my personal opinion, and I always stay behind, my personal opinion. You know, the people, all want changes, but nobody want change. Okay? And I think, it's not the group who, it's, the group is not limited, for the changes, and, the group always search, the solution. I think the, the stick out, now, will, will produce, in one, two years, for sure, a little bit different picture. Of course, and we, we already think, how to evaluate, different situation, we already think, what to introduce, inside, for the moment, is it like this, and, we already have, some different interpretation, we already give this, signal to this, on the seminar, in Napoli, how to evaluate, different reaction, and normally, the dog now, to, to, to be in the excellent, must be, really good, in the both part, not only, in the first, and the second, a little bit less, because, you know, in the second part, with the some, if you, if, today, like, before, it's more, extremely to see, the dog, in the second part, they are not, physically, able, more, to resist, of the pressure, physically, you know, they are, they come empty, and this empty, means, good, or, being satisfactory, when you touch, to the good, and satisfactory, going down, you make the difference, you know, so it's, for sure, will develop, but, it's a joke, it's a joke, but not joke. Okay. So, but you are, in the Yugoslavia, our target, when I was the helper, how many dogs, I will send away. Yeah, there's still helpers, like that. Today, mostly, we have, this kind of problem, to, we don't have a pressure, right, on the protection work, you know, it's, this is our, we have a speed, we have a nice picture, we have a nice photo, we have a nice suit, we have a nice color, but, everyone is afraid, to do the mistake, when you are afraid, to do the mistake, you don't go to the limit. Yeah. But, but you, like Hender, you have to train the dog, to the limit, close, if you want to be, top. So, everyone, for the top, must, try to do better, better, to the limit, not over the limit. Right. Respect the limit, but, the dog has to have, I mean, the dog and the trainer, they have to have a challenge. Yeah. But, the challenge, the challenge, has to be, something that the dog, and the handler, can accomplish, because if it's, too high, it breaks down, if it's, too low, it becomes, you know, you know, I,

I hate people, when I say, you see, for example, this, I will say, I will use your name, you see, Balabano, he made the mistake, in obedience, he tried to go to the limits, between limits, excellent, and down, it's very, tight, border, you understand? Yeah. And, and I, I respect people, when they, try to go, to make the step, over, more, to go, a little bit up, because if you, if you want to be sure, you just go, 5% before limits, you just make the step down, you understand? But if you want more, more, a little bit more, you want to develop, your risk, your risk is higher. And, and so, correct me, if I don't get it right, but, but, there is a, like, a little bit more, consideration, in favor, of a dog, that is, responsive, and reliable, and, it's putting, it's almost like, the dog is putting stress, on its own, to do the right thing. Kind of like, if I have to go, and pass a test, for some exam, I mean, if I care, I would be stressed, about it a little bit, otherwise, I would not get the test. of course. And, so, like, there is this, like, for, in the, in the whole, IGP world community, right now, I don't think we, are clear, as competitors, how much, of that responsibility, and stress, is okay, and, where is that line, to where we say, well, that dog is pressured, and, you're a, not good trainer, and you're going, in that category, or you're, getting disqualified. I don't think, we, we understand, where that line is, and how to train. But, the science, say, the happy dog, is the dog, who is, under the working progress. When the dog, have, clear idea, and he won't, and, he's under, the working progress, he's, for him, he's a happy dog. So, the happy dog, is not, the dog, who is all the time, on the couch, and sleeping. Correct. So, if the dog, likes to work, and this is, this is, what he making happy, just develop this. That's good, I'm sure, I'm sure a lot of people, that are listening, to us will. No, no, but this is, this is not, because Harry Archeon, say, or Ivan Balabanu, the people, who study behavior, of the dogs, and the science, say, the happy dog, is the dog, who is, all the time, working. Right. We have no time, to spend for, stupid things, you understand? Because, the dog, like to, to work, because for him, make him, clear. Have a purpose, have a purpose, in life, even, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Just like us, like you, you, you have, meaningful life. All, of, all of us, all, all us, we must, make step back. Thinking, meaning, training, judging, and to evaluate, the nature, quality, the quality of, the nature, the nature quality, of the dog. Both. Understand? Step back. Try to found, and to make the, um, courage to say, this, it's okay, and this is not okay. Right. Not say, yeah, yeah, but, maybe, yes or not, this is wrong. White, black. Yeah, this is where, it's a,

it's difficult, for, for, for, trainers, preparing, because they don't have, and me included, you know, just not knowing, where, I will be, if I, if, I don't make the dog, and, and we know, with good training, you can make a dog, have the tail up, but, here, he's not, feeling that way, and everybody, and everybody, knows that. Okay, um, I will, use, uh, this idea, uh, I promise, to share, in the, and, to understand, and to put something together, it's, very cool, uh, good, good idea, I have no problem, then, of course, but, uh, it's, uh, the conclusion is, together, we can do better. Yes, yes, we, we have to, like, I think, both, I mean, I was gonna say, both sides, we are one side, that's, that's the thing, like, judges, yeah, judges, competitors, breeders, we are all, in the same place, we just need to, look at it, that way, and, and, like, we will love the sport, all of us, you know, we are crazy. Not only we love, we are also, a little bit dependent. Well, yeah, there is some addiction, there is some addiction, for sure, but, we are afraid, and we are hoping, that, you guys, will, will protect, our sport, will, will, will, and, and, I am sure, that, at any time, you need, any, I don't know, what kind of help, you will need, or what kind of collaboration, but, I know, all the trainers, will be, very willing, to, to, contribute, you know, and, I think, this is important, for all of us, to, somehow, find, ways. I can, I can, I can tell you, in the group, we, we have a good, different, good fighting, and discussion, because, we are people, who, all protect, not only the ideas, but, because, they, they are, they, they, they take care about, the future, you understand? And, this is good, I like this. So, I, I believe, we can do something good. That's what I was hoping, to come out, on this one. Very, very good. Okay. Harry, thank you so much. This was, I think, I really, think this was, a very good, conversation, for, the whole, IGP world, to, to hear that, you know, we, we're gonna have our sport, and we're gonna go on, and we're gonna have fun, and, you know, it's, I'm sure, I'm sure. So, just, we, we must protect, and we, must, take care about, our position. Right. Handlers, breeders, trainers. So, we need, we need some, just as you said, like some mission statement, and, and stand behind it, and, educate, and, and, of course, you know. Yeah. Very good. I'm super happy. Thank you for, for, for the, you know, like, I know you, you just, go so many places, judging and everything, and I know it's hard to do this, but, I'm so happy that we had that conversation, and, you know. Thank you for the invitation. We're gonna see you. Hopefully, we make another, like, I, I really, we're thinking of something to where, you know, we invite, back in the states, and, and have some, judges, more, more,

more judges education, like, like for competitors, you know. Yeah, okay. Okay. So, must be regular education, this for every year. Right. Very important. Right. This is, this is it, because, in my country, we do it this way, because then, it's everything more clear, and it's, yeah. It keeps, it keeps trainers, on track, of what, we want to accomplish, and then, any kind of, silly training, or, or, okay, so we have the silly training, but we also have the, you know, the other mentality, from, years and years ago, to where it's like this, oh, this dog, and, and that dog is like this, but they're not, he's real, it's like, he's not real, he doesn't want to be here, you know, so there is these extremes, but with, when we stay together, and we talk to each other, everybody knows, where we want to be. Right. Yeah. So, thank you so much. And, and another very important thing, what the group, and the FCI, always, develop, and take care, and protect, it's a, it's a way, to give, the chance, to everyone, to win. Right. And to be there. And this is, I think, one of the best, uh, things, also the, working commission, before, with Franz Jansen, and now with Robert, they do, so, everyone has the same chance, and this is very important. Yes. Even come from, Slovenia, Bulgaria, USA, Bangladesh, doesn't matter. I love it. Just go, yeah. All right, my friend. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so happy. You're welcome. All right, Harry. Take care, my friend. Take care. Take care.