Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 73: Pierre Wahlstrom

much similar. Sometimes they're the type of trainers that they can be for very long time in the game, but but it's always looking for for different interesting things, and that's I think what keeps it going instead of Okay, well, I know how to do it and I stay with what I know instead of trying to you know, push the door and see what happens if I take it this way. I think that's where it gets interesting eventually. But you know, that is exactly what these people do the art the art the art. I mean, the the the the thing that they can catch our attention with different paintings is because they are they go out of the box all the time and surprise I have no idea about painting, you know what I mean? Mhm. >> But I can understand the people who have good knowledge and can evaluate and give a a number of money of of of a painting, you know what I mean? I have no idea, but I can understand them. And the And the same is the same is I think it's with you and I feel also like that and people have been in the sport long time. It's also very hard to promote training with on on demand. So So the the competitions is a little bit against our paintings, our art for training because the training The freedom of the exploration. The training is more important for us than the result. Then we are competitive people, of course, we hate to lose. And that pushes to do stupid things, to push us to don't paint with with with our with our emotions like the same, huh? Maybe. Now we get very deep. I don't I'm sorry, but I cannot explain this for so many people without then for example you and a couple of more people more you know Knut and I have a nice discussion folks. He's the same type of guy. He only loves animals. You know what I mean? >> Right. Right. He loves them. Well, he cannot stop. He have everything. He loves to to communicate with animals. Yeah. Yeah, very true. Pierre, let me make a quick introduction. Guys, if you are strangers to IGP IPO Schutzhund uh I have as a guest Pierre Wahlstrom today. Pierre has incredible experience from from many different angles. I [snorts] I know him for quite some time. We have hang out together. Pierre has judged me poof a lot of times actually. He's a He's a breeder in German Shepherds. He's a judge. He's a He judges FCI but he's also a um um foreign SV judge for the German Shepherds. He breed German Shepherds. He was a world champion with his dog Rosso the same year when I was world champion with my dog Kenny. Just >> [snorts] >> weird coincidence but that's how the the dog sport goes. >> [snorts] >> Um He is in the military in Sweden. He does very cool stuff for quite some time now and this is evaluating

dogs and selecting dogs for the army. So, thank you. I know we tried to get this going and here we are talking and I know that I have so many places that we want to go to. Where do you want to go first? Like I One thing that I admire for you is besides everything else that you're doing, something that I didn't mention in the intro, like you excite people. You also confront people. But you built a very interesting community around you and you're helping people to really reach the highest of possible level that they can possibly reach with whatever the dog is. Including uh uh Natalie winning a world championship last year. And I I kind of want to start there probably because you cannot do this without having the passion. You cannot do this without having the patience. Um it's not a easy thing to coach people and specially in our sport when coaching is one thing, but then the stars need to line up that day, too. And then how you handle and how you teach your uh trainers to handle the the success and the failures. And like tell me a little bit about this because it's really special what you're doing there, I think. Yes. Uh thank you, Ivan, and for the fantastic introduction introduction you you started. First of all, I mean, you're a legend in this in this world, not only in the IGP. I mean, in the as a behaviorist with dogs in general, Ivan. So, I'm so thankful for uh have the possibility to join your pod and all the work you do. I see it a lot. Uh you know how to uh ask the right questions because you have plenty of knowledge, Ivan. So, it's very nice to get a to get interviewed by you because they will be a very interesting, and I really hope that many people take the time and and start to follow you and your pod. Um So, the coaching situation um I have always loved to coach people. I mean, when you compete, okay, you are a little bit This is an individualist, you and your dog. And you're standing there in the middle of the the the stadium, and all eyes are on you. You have to be a little bit special for like that. I mean, you cannot do that then and if you don't like it. But, to see other people succeed after you are training with them, that's that's another level. You know that, too. You have trained so many successful teams, and these people you have trained, and all of the others, and my my students, too, they know how difficult this is because we have so much passion. And every training is not like candy and flowers and hearts and lots of love. It's hard work. I cannot I don't want to use too hard English words because it's rude, but it's a very hard work to to coach a dog and another another people to reach their goals because

that's the first question I ask them when when they come to me and want to get coached. And Okay, what is your goal? Okay, my goal is to do win win the world champion. Okay. But, your dog is 9 year old. You have no driving license. You get You take the bus to the training. You have You have 10 kids. Um you're living very far away. It's impossible. That's not You have to have the right uh material in your dog. Not Not need to be a super dog, but at least a dog who want to do the this thing. And you as a person need to be, how to say it in English, competitive, you know? You have to You have to only focus on this if we shall fulfill your goal. >> Yeah, there will be sacrifices and choices that there is no question you have to make. And and and you know this and many people know it, too. To be the world best in the world, you have to train most. You have to You have to do everything most of everyone that year. And you know, in our sport, you can not so many get world champion after one entrance in the They have to build up respect for the name. So, they I mean, the first year you compete, next year, and then the judges and the people knows that this guy, Ivan Balabanov, he don't come with any bad work. He will always be super prepared. Then things can happen because it's animals. So, uh for in Natalie's case, for example, she had been competing many more times with three dogs before she became world champion. So, she was number five with the mother to this female, and she was number three FCI with this female, and she built up the name and also teaching the dog. So, and in my opinion, it's like this sounds rude, but I don't care if my students hate me or love me during the competition week. Because if I can put them in so high drive so they hate me, and they still fulfill the goal, I'm happy for them. Yes. This is my This is my way way to teach them. And and the last year we have five dogs from five different countries actually competing, including USA. >> Crazy. And and and and that was a challenge, and I will never more do it. think. >> [laughter] >> No, that's the that I can imagine. to have five Ronaldos, five Ronaldo. Um I don't know if everyone knows Ronaldo or Messi. Messi is more humble. This is difficult to have four five winners in the same group. They all was super nice, all went super well. But it was it was hard. Yeah, there is there is that pressure that is there. It You know, wow, yeah, I I never thought of that. That's a whole different >> nerves. You know the nerves. And I can tell you this, you know this when I say it. And I want to tell this to all handlers out there, even if they're

competing in Mondioring or have police dogs or military dogs or IGP or obedience or agility. The weeks before the competition, all people want to sell the dogs or get rid of the dog or all problems shows up the last 2 weeks. And we destroy a lot as trainers because we are so focused on the goal. So I can just tell you all out there. And I have changed the last 10 years. But the first 10 years I was I was super crazy. Now I'm only crazy, but Yeah. continue the way you do. Everything will fixed during the week when you compete. Everything will be stabilized. Uh try to think so positive you can. Try to not be so negative, you know. But you are you are drained of energy. Yes. the last month if you're prepared for 4 or 5 years. So Yes. And then the competition starts and the roller coaster starts. And on top of that that you're almost empty mentally and and physically, now you have to handle the competition itself. And woof. I get goosebumps just [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> That's And and and for many people that's the kick. That's like That's like you get addicted to that feeling. >> Uh we started the interview before the presentation and we we are a little bit dinosaurs now, Ivan. Still we have a passion to do it and I'm sure I'm sure you will come back again. You will do it again. You will crash uh uh and and and and win again for sure uh because we have a passion of the training and and when we're standing there and the competition comes closer, we comes in compe- competitive mood. I mean, Yes. Yes, it it's a as you said like uh um we that there is this addiction. I think we got addicted whenever that happened and it's a good thing. Let me go a little bit deeper with the coaching. How does the because I mean again, you're you're like one of the most highly regarded judges. You've judged You've judged any world championship possible, few of them few times. I I don't know how many times all together you've judged world championships, but you've judged national championships probably anywhere in the world. I remember when uh Carlos Rochas did that money championship back Masters. Yes, [snorts] I don't know if you saw them not, but I think they're planning on making one again. Um so that would be interesting. >> cool. That's cool. And I remember you because you have actually a a show dog one time, you know? [laughter] >> yes. And you had the best obedience with that dog, I know. >> Yes, yes. I think so. Yeah, that was That was cool compe- It was the wrong time of the year. It was very warm. It was so hot there in New York that time. So So when you have this kind of incredible amount of of experience in judging,

how does that help you coach the people? Because there coaches, but there coaches that understand the game. And that's a game changer in my opinion. How how much do you spend time with the people that you trying to actually really make them understand how to fight for points or or where does the judging come in place when you coach? Uh super question. First of all, we don't I say I tell them all including myself, try to tell them and including myself, don't focus on the judges. Because we have so many different type of judging today, sadly, but it is individuals and it is a sport and it's it's it's based on people who will >> Yes. So, we have to focus on what is the trial book saying actually? What is the rules? And then I go super deep into don't focus on that. That costs you nothing compared to what you can lose. That is the content constantly going on process in the dialogue with the handlers. So, for example, before when the sit in IGP sit for on during motion was five points. >> Yes. I tell them we don't focus so much on that half point because you will just destroy your whole sit. Today is 10 points. Now we have to fix that small thing that we would we ignored before. So, it's true. I use my knowledge as a judge all the time, almost only. And I also know when the judges are not super focused. I know when the judges are relaxed. I know when they don't see. I know when they make their notes and I know when they get tired. So, for example, I know if I should coach my my my handler to perform Saturday evening 6:00 5:30 in the evening 6:00. I know the judge will be tired. We take a risk. We We do small things here and there in in the program. And not not to cheat the judge, but to use the human's sensitivity weakness in the program. So, we focus a lot. And I love it. And and I know this for my for myself and of course from all my colleagues out there. Uh um and for example, we can take one example, the retrieve exercise. Um we send out the retrieve. The dog is not super fast out. He go out normal speed, normal speed back. But you have a fantastic finish, Alan. Yes. You grab the dumbbell and the dog is out. He's sitting in the front. He comes very fast. Good presentation. The last impressions is the thing when he's standing there or she the judge You see the very good or excellent. Ah, that was super, you know. So, this is one example. Yes. Yes. Yes. To to to use the brain of the judge in a positive way for myself. So, the the short answer is we focus a lot on this when we train the dogs. Yes. Yeah. Cuz I would think like I I mean, I'm sure you also know trainers that train very very religiously strong hardcore training.

But focus on the things that not going to make the points for them. We have so many good trainers in the world, Alan. I can tell you so many nice trainers that have good knowledge. Helpers are good. It's not bad. We have good trainers in the world is my opinion. But We can take one example, Holland. Netherlands. I mean, maybe they have the best culture in the world for dog sport. Fantastic. They have super helpers. All All people knows that the Holland helpers. They're super nice, men of them. Uh handlers nice. The dog material different breeds, doesn't matter. All good. Not no not bad. How many times do we see these countries on the podium? Yeah, interesting question. And that's that's a nice connection to your They training super nice, but I'm not sure that they are focused on what they are what the end goal is with the training. Put many hours every week. Super nice clima in the dog sport in the clubhouse. Families there. They're joining, they're drinking. And they have fun. But where is the results? Very true. I don't know, but How do you think social media How do you think YouTube, Instagram, TikTok How do you think they affect people that don't want to just do tricks, but actually want to compete in a high level? I am I am myself I love the social media. It have It has helped me a lot different things. The small The small person can still have a voice because of the social media, you know? You can still get out to people and so. But at the at the other hand, it destroys a lot, too. I mean they only see us, you and me and all others nice good trainings. How many times do we really show up bad training? I mean really the way from the start to the end. And not because it's bad training, because we do something stupid, because we don't filming bad training. We filming only nice results of a competition or how we teaching in a nice retrieve. They don't They don't see the the the backyard of when we are tired, when the dogs are tired, and we don't we don't speak about that so much. So, I think new people especially, it's difficult for them to understand when their dogs don't do like the Instagram dogs do in general. Mhm. Maybe this is wrong wrong dog or wrong training system or whatever, but I want to tell them that probably not. You have We have the same problem as everyone else. And and Yes. >> social media is good, but but you have to you have to see a little bit between the lines what's happening when everything is not perfect. Correct me if I'm wrong, Ivan. Yeah, no no. I tell I mean, again, it's it's like the good and the bad and everything in between. It just depends how how the individual person uses the

social media. It can be a great benefit or it can really hurt you. Yes. >> In in so many ways. Like I see videos of dogs, you know, like trainer doing some really cool things. It's like, "Okay, I'm going to teach my dog to lean on me really heavy in a healing." Yeah. >> like, "Okay, this very cool." But now there is 20 guys that are doing IGP and thinking this is something I should be teaching my dog. And then there's going to be a wake-up call. And imagine Well, you don't need to imagine, but you guys imagine how difficult it will be to even try to convince that dog not to push so hard in healing after the foundation is done. Yeah. And then they call you and you I won't help. >> [laughter] >> But I I try to do on on my social media on Instagram and so on. I tried to at least when I do some posts focus a lot on the on the temperament. I mean, we call it in in in the scan in in northern countries we call it mentality, but that's the wrong word actually in in in English. So, temperament and and and the outcome of if you will give the ball to your dog three times don't don't get surprised if he day four start to scream uh 5 minutes before the training because you have build up an expectation and so on. So, I try to connect uh the reward system with the the men- I have a lot of discussions with that and I think people likes that because they can they can learn from what they put in in the dogs. You have to also take care about it on the other side, you know. And when they see Ivan or or or Knut Fux or whatever people um doing something maybe that's something for that dog and the dog they have their own must maybe start in a total another way. So to balance all our the promoting the videos we do on social media I think the temperament's talking education is important in that case. That case it's it's good with social media. Yeah. Yeah, very true. How how soon would you start working with a dog for IGP? Uh or or coaching somebody. Like like you know, let's say let's say you have one of your people that you've coached previously with a dog. Now the dog is old. Now they got a new dog, new puppy. How soon you going to start to help out? You know there's also and the best answer the best is when you as earliest as possible because then you they can you can we will do mistakes every day even if you have a lot of experience. So, we will do mistakes, but it will be less mistakes you earlier than you meet the dog and the handlers for in the in the case with Natalie, for example, is maybe the best case. We we breed the dog. We we have the puppy from the beginning. She had the puppy from day one. And we build up the dog to the world to

a world champion. We avoided a lot of mistakes, of course. Uh we did mistakes, but we can we can we can easily understand >> You'll catch them sooner. You catch them sooner. >> repair them. Uh you older they are, the more difficult, but I can tell you also that I mean people can do very very stupid things with a dog, but as long as they are not mean to the dogs, as long as they don't do stupid corrections or thought too much negative trainings, we can fix mostly, Ivan. I mean Mhm. if they are pushing in the healing, if they are chewing in the out, chewing in the sleeve, chewing in the dumbbell when they are 1 year old, we can we can fix that. You know what I mean? But if they have been bad to the dogs, their dogs are not not not in harmony, that is difficult. So, that from that point of view I want them to meet the handlers and the dogs very early. But Good point. >> But you sent you sent one one a good handler to me when her female was like 2 and 1/2 3 years old. And and she she she became she became 14 in the FCI World Championship in the first of her life. And and but we met we met we we met each other pretty soon, you remember? Yes. Yes, of course. Of course. No, this this is a again, like coaching is one of my very I I'm passionate about a lot of things, and coaching is just very interesting. And and you know, it's always The pro The problem I want to put in in this situation is is is the seminars that I see around the world. I know that when you give seminars, you really go into the basic things so people don't miss step one and two and three. But many times I like the smoke from the cigar. I should like to smoke. I tried one time when I was 16 years old, but I threw up. I could not do it. I have to stop directly. But this looks cool. >> It's a game. Maybe I should have one of you smoking here next time. Anyway, I see too many seminars, people who pay a lot of money go there. I call them happy thunder seminar, you know. Good one. [laughter] Happy thunder seminar. I mean, everyone is happy. But on Monday, Tuesday, nobody have learned anything and all dogs are just going for long attacks all weekend or >> You know what we call them? We call them just sorry to interrupt, but it's a I think in English is even more funny. We call them seminar hopping. Kind of like when you are in the in the beach and you're bar hopping, partying from bar to bar to bar, you know. Yeah, that's it. And and and I can understand maybe 60 70% of the people like that social things. Only to go there and meet people and high five and let the dog get tired. But they pay a lot for that, you know what I mean? So, pay attention to those type of seminars

because they don't maybe that if you don't go on seminars that is really really qualified, I mean, secure that this trainer is a success successful one, save the money and stay at home and train with your club, you know what I mean? >> Yes. Don't bring the dog. Spectate. Spectate and then if you have an access again, then Yeah. Yeah. And and it's always even better if whomever running the seminar if if they have some more consistent schedule that they come to the same place. Now, if you like the type of training, now that's worth it to to go again cuz Yeah. no matter who you are 3 days of training is not you you're just touching something on the surface. Maybe you can give some good advice. Maybe I will get confused. You know, there's there's got to be a little bit more of a follow-up, some kind of consistency to where it's not just okay, I was at this big-name seminar just to so you can check it in your box and say that you did that, you know. I should I should rather save my money and pay uh call Ivan when I if I'm in your say call Ivan, save all my money and say I want 1 hour or 3 hours with you and put all the money is on you on that 3 hours. That should give you more on a private, huh? Yes. >> And and and don't put your money on and five, six uh weekend seminars, hotel, driving um expenses, everything. Save the money and put them on one or two or three hours quality training with a super trainer. That will give you a lot more in my opinion. >> Yes. I did that. I did that in the beginning. When I was like 19, 20 years focused on IGP, I did that. I go I tried to search the best ones in the beginning, yeah. Yeah, this was I I mean, it is the best way to do it, really. Like I I didn't have much opportunity because well, once I, you know, I had to I escaped from Bulgaria cuz it was communism at the time. And in Belgium, I go went just straight into Belgium ring cuz I was already interested in a Malinois. And once I came to the States, it was just so difficult for me. And that was before social media. So, we had this one magazine, Dog Sport, and that's kind of, you know, it was a monthly edition, and that's where you hear scores or competition, but it kind of you hear about them after the fact. So, it was very difficult for me to, you know, to to find where to go. Like the the the young generation now is so so fortunate in so many ways um because of of access and because of, I mean, how easy it is to communicate with anybody you want to, you know? And it's just so so cool. Um what is your What is your I I As a judge, where do you stand? Like what what do you make of where IGP is now? What is the direction where we are going? Like

specifically thinking about the the the rules, the you know, sometimes we change it this way, but then we see that it's not quite the right thing, we retract it, we go back to what it was. But there is of course constantly some search to improve. >> [snorts] >> My question is, what are we trying to improve? Like what Where are we going with this? This is a This is a very clever question. It's It's not easy answer, actually. for >> Um we have we have a lot We have a long way still to to fix the situation. I think the new organization in FCI we we talk about FCI and including also the different breeding breeds breeding clubs organizations. The knowledge we have now actually is is much much better than for some years back for sure. I mean the the the presidents and the vice presidents and the people there in the group that they they know. Then then it's difficult for them to of course satisfy the whole world. And I am super negative for some things and super happy. And I I I write about it. For the sport, I mean for when I started the sport during the middle of '80 in 1986-88 >> [snorts] >> the judge was God. The judge knows everything. Yeah. >> No handlers took took any discussion. But nowadays, I mean, handlers and trainers are so good. They have much better knowledge than the judges how to evaluate the dog's behavior, for example. I mean, when I discuss uh temperaments and behaviors of dogs, I get impressed because the trainers around the world doesn't matter what country, they have good knowledge today. So, they they match and and and almost take over the judge competence because the judges many of judges don't compete many years don't train active during many years, uh but they still standing and judge big trials. And that is up to the organizations to not stop it because we need all kind of judges to to complete this sport. We need normal amateur judges, but we also need professional good level judges who are who are close to the sport. The dots will be the judges that kind of direct, give the direction where we're heading to. I mean I mean to stand in there in the front of the world to listen to someone that you know have no idea what they're talking about. That is not respect. I mean, how many hours do you spend, Ivan, on your dog before you come here? How much money have you spent on your dog? Training, gasoline, veterinary, insurance, food. I mean, everything. I mean, and then you travel to Europe and get judged by a an amateur that get the job for as a gift because you have been a long time in the sport. >> true. I I I That is the the biggest thing I stopped competing during after 2007 and come back later because I was so fed up. I

was so tired of I I couldn't be quiet. I I I have reactions. So, that is something they have to fix. The judges must be better on all levels. Local trials, do what you want. Make people happy. Do what you want with the points. Give them the titles as you as as long as it's correct, of course. But when you come up to Cassiet level or qualification on nationals or the world championship, please. The system we have today is not acceptable. The The The one judge system in each part is is is is a is a is a almost a circus. Yes. To have one man, girl, woman responsible for 33% of the points of 120, 40, 150 dogs. That's ridiculous. That That's That's That's not human brain how like >> That's un No No You look at ice skating, you look at many horse sport one judge is impossible on that level. >> Yes. So, their dog organizations must improve. They have to Please. I mean, you as a handler uh you will pay easily $10 more, $20 more to to uh uh on your on your fee to go to the world championship if they can at least have more than one judges. Yes, very very very valid point. I'll I'll I think You know what is really interesting is that probably the the vast majority of competitors agree on this agree on this. And in fact, I I you know, like anytime I talk to IGP trainers and judges and like I always I think you know how we would say, "Well, two judges is a good thing, but then there is this kind of argument about, well, two judges, but one stay on that corner, one and they don't share." And I'm like, "No, they should share information because that's the whole idea of well, I have a little brain fart, but the other judge actually catches it. I think it's good to communicate because >> No problem. >> you you build uh Okay, this is what we're judging, and now we have four eyes looking for the same thing. Um you know, Correct. I agree 100%. I don't like >> Because I think because you know what I think like some some competitors almost want to turn it into a game of Okay, well, there is this judge there and this judge there and the one's going to give 89 points because maybe they miss something and the other one's going to give 95 points and ha ha ha let's see them." That's not the point, right? I have standing so many times judging so many dogs. I can tell you, Ivan, and I I this is true. When you're standing and judging obedience, sometimes you're standing there and you are not sure if this is the start of the free healing or if this is the start of the sit exercise, you know? You get blackouts sometimes. Even if you are super experienced, you get blackouts. So, the idea you say here to work together and No, Pierre. No, Pierre. You come to me, Pierre.

You missed the whole escape. You have missed 10 points there. Okay, that discussion. And and when the worst when when a Russian judge shall judge an Ukrainian handler, there is two judges on the field. So, the Russian guy cannot kill the Ukrainian or opposite or what religion or enemies on the field or whatever, there will be no questions because they know the two people are having agree, this is 85. Finish. So, what in your opinion, what is the hold back? Why why why we cannot implement this? Because it seems so reasonable and I don't think there is much resistance against having two judges, but somehow It's so easy. It happens here and there, but it's not like accepted as a It's so easy. This is only uh prestige. Is that the right word? Prestige. >> Yeah. There is some old dinosaurs still who's protecting the the unique thing to be the boss on the field. When they are gone, we would change this. There is no other answer. I can tell you I was sitting in the UDC in the in the commission for rules in in in FCI. I was sitting there I was sitting there for year 5 years. And for the rules 2012, I can tell you from my heart. I want to change the steps after the sit and stand. IGP2 and sit IGP1 to from 30 Well, 30 steps before. >> Mhm. I tell them who want to look at the dog handler goes 30 steps waiting, 30 steps back, 60 steps for nothing. Can we at least do it 15 off? >> It took me 3 years to get some countries judges to accept that small changing. Then you understand how deep this culture of the rules is the rules are, you know what I mean? >> Yes, interesting. >> To change something is so hard. That's my experience. Yeah. It is a Yeah. So, I I hope when some people are gone, this will be much easier because the young ones the younger generations are more positive to make the sport cleaner and they're not so into the unique position of a judge. Mhm. A judge is a a human being like everyone else. He's not God. Thank you so much judge for coming here and help us during your spare time. But we have trained a lot for showing our dogs under you. So, please evaluate us correctly, please. >> Right. Right. Man. Pierre. What's your take? Like like this is actually a question that I have almost I mean I mean I'm kind of sure because a lot of there is always conversations along those lines, but but now I have two dogs that I have to they're almost as I was telling you earlier when we started I have a female and a male that are super young. Well, not young enough. I'm have to do the BH and do the IGP one now. And [snorts] and I'm at a point right now that I have to go back and really study the rules for IGP one because I I

I mean everything from when I did IGP one things have changed dramatically of what the requirements were. Mhm. What What do you think? Why are we doing like I guess my question is if somebody is going towards level three but they have to train something for level one that only is very specific for level one and it doesn't really even even give a progression towards where you really are training. So, you you you basically have to teach something one time for one title, the most basic title, and then forget about it and move on. What [snorts] is your opinion on this? I I I I'm just really not that I like it or I don't I don't necessarily have opinion or maybe I do. Like I I think we should think of getting that progression somehow and not breaking it to where you're training for something that you never benefit from in the future perhaps. I don't know. You You get my point. I'm I'm curious. >> Okay. You talk about IGP there and you mean in the tracking it's it's on it's it's in some you can see the steps there. It's true. Obedience is the biggest uh uh changer. And and I I I have I don't have the answer. I mean, for example, these are jumps. Uh if we take that one. Total total different what the dog should do and in one and three. And I think sometimes when they are when you are sitting there in the group of with rules and I mean, they have done amazing job. I mean, Robert Mach is like who is the president now, he have opened a door to everyone. I mean, it it was a conference for not so many weeks back that he opened the door for 500 people, not only judges. So, everyone could log in and it's so transparent for the moment. So, they are open for for everyone's ideas and that was an amazing seminar. >> I agree. So, there is there is a changing going on. But to answer that question, I think when you sitting there, you get so involved in that in that part of the changing so you forget the reality. And the best example of that is those uh how do you call them? The boxes after the jumps. Yes. I was at the first uh champion championship directly first one was in Italy. And there you get the answer of how this work when the dumbbells jumping around like rabbits on the field and the the the the obedience program crashed the whole time schedule all of already after the first group. Because no one had standing there and threw the dumbbells in the boxes. It was like what are we expecting for the nervous handlers should also now be the super nice gun shooter, you know? Yes, that's true. Very true. And now the handler the boxes wider and take the boxes away and stuff like this. So, but that mistake they don't do that in

purpose. I mean they don't do it because they want to be bad or mean. I think they go so much in into that change so they forget forgot sometimes reality. Yeah. And then the feedback from the organizations democratic way down. Not one was there, one was there. I mean really much. The feedback is important. That is coming up that please change so at least see the steps in the program. Don't tell the new handlers to teach something they never more they maybe would do one time in the year. I mean you teach you put a lot of times to teach the dog in I IGP one. You do IGP one times but you do IGP three maybe for the rest of the dog's life, yes. Yes. Yes, that's the point. >> so that that you put the attention you said that that that you put the finger exactly on a weakness that we have on that level, yes. I you know what is interesting to me is that the somehow I I don't think it's like officially said this way but there is the the desire to make the sport more accessible, more easier to anybody that wants to do. However, I think still you know, not deviating, not kind of derailing the sport we can still create interest and ultimately it's a brutal sport. It's not for everybody. That's my opinion. I mean there there are people that like to do and there people that no matter how easy we're going to make it, we cannot create more uh uh more people on the just to to participate on low level. Um and I may be wrong with this cuz even as I'm saying it, I can understand how we need to do we we actually really need to do a lot of uh education and popularizing the sport. But, is that really the right way to where we are washing it down so it's more accessible? And eventually the people that really stick to it, they they're the ones as we were talking earlier again, that they're they're very committed and they will sacrifice and they will not they will skip the movie, they will skip the the family reunion thing because of training session. They will put everything on credit card if they need to. It's not it's not a sport in my opinion that it's just a for for everybody or at least not in in from a certain point on. First of all, I mean people on our level normally say that the IGP one is too easy. I say it's too uh difficult Mhm. for normal people because I want them into the sport. I mean I want them to use IGP one as a breeding start. The dog can track, the dog can jump, the dog can come when you call them. The dog can bite, the dog can, you know, defend themselves. Easy things, IGP one. Let all the people into the sport. Let everyone, grandma, your daughter, uh your [clears throat] neighbor with any breed, whatever. It

should be so easy. So, and because when they are into the sport, have been training on your club many, many months, they will stay. Yes. And they will stay in the club and they will like continue to try next level. Maybe it's impossible for them, but maybe they get a new dog. They try to next level. Yes. Today it's too difficult. People are have not the time to do everything they need to do to come to to to um fix an IGP1. Of course, for the professional trainers, it's nothing. I mean, still it's so easy to make it, but for the normal people who are not so experienced or new people. >> Yes. IGP1 is super super It's not easy. I mean, True. So, that is something that have to change because when we have people in the sport, they will they will buy the coffee, they will buy the hot dog, they will give membership money, they maybe want to sponsor, they want to be the group, they want to be the track layers, they want to be the audience on the in the tribune later on. We need people. But today we give this red stop sign already in the beginning. IGP is so difficult. >> Mhm. Don't start with this. Start with agility. It's better for you, you know? Uh I get it. >> way. I get it. You I mean, you definitely have a point and then again, I I go back and forth with this all the time. And and the one that you brought in with the even even from breeding purposes, it's there's so many incredible dogs out there that we will never hear of unless they show up just Okay, maybe they they don't even pass the title, but you see the dog and you're like, "Ooh, Mhm. who is this?" Right? Yes. >> Yeah, very good point. Very, very, very good point of that as far as that goes. We will see. I hope they change it. How is How How do you feel about the protection today? I know I mean, I kind of follow of course, we we all kind of pay attention to each other on social media and stuff, but What What do you think? How How did and did it even change after we took the stick itself? The stick hits People don't understand that the stick hits in my opinion, many people don't understand. I can say like that. Sorry. They think the stick hits is the thing to evaluate to to separate good dogs. You have see super super weak dogs I would get better after the stick hit because they get in in in another mood, you know. Mhm. So, this is the I I am not against stick hit. Of course, I like to test the dogs. I like to test the temperament, but I as I'm working with temperament test every day. This is my passion. This is my work since 30 years. There is lots of different ways to test the character of a dog without hit them hit them with something. And if our support shall so wide,

you have to think about to explain for someone who never see to explain for your grandmother, why do you hit the dog with a stick? Why do you hit the dog? And maybe some people say it's not necessary to explain for your grandmother, but if the grandmother is a poli- political Mhm. worker in some countries. Mhm. And they use that. So, we need to go step forward everything and take away things that can stop our sport. People are stopping the sport today, try to stop them in some countries because dogs biting, you know what I mean. >> Correct. Correct. I try I try to I try to explain and educate people that our dogs, our sport dogs have no interest in to bite people. They have interest in to bite in the prey that presents. Okay, pal. But why do you train aggressions? Yes, you don't need that aggressions or defense work. You can come and get a lot of points without it. But some dogs, if they want to compete with them during many years, you have to work with all the characters, different characters, braveness, fighting drives, prey drives, aggression drives, willing to please drives, and so on. You have to use your whole register in some dogs. That's the reason we open them. But you can send in a super the world champion, you can send into a group of people, he will search the helper with a suit on or with a sleeve on. So Right. Protection dogs is sport dogs have nothing to do with dangerous dogs. They are opposite, do you know what I mean? >> [snorts] >> But the police who train the dogs to bite civilian people, they have to train dogs really much to bite in a bone in a skin because it's against normal dogs' nature. Good dogs' nature. There are super stupid breeds that bite people, of course, but not the breeds we are competing with. These breeds are This is You have to take the blockation away because it's against dogs' behave to use the molars to crash bones. Because the you have to teach them to do it first. So, back to the stick. The stick we need to take it away in Europe. Because we were close they were close to kill the sport because of that thing. In USA, it's opposite. It's so big country. Uh you have also other tools that is allowed in your in your country that is totally forbidden in Europe since many years back. Yes. Uh I don't want to say that someone in your countries will I mean there is 51 uh states, huh? in the USA. Yeah. Uh that they will could take away the sticks or forbidding something here and there because you have another culture there. And I ex- I accept the discussion with people from example USA because there are this is in another world. Yes. Uh uh uh than we have in Europe today. >> Yes, very true.

So so this is different levels, but my conclusion is if I can try to put these things together now that we can test the dogs and they're a super good helpers who still selected the dogs because of the behave of how they work the dogs on the field. If they work them on the sleeve, on a on a suit, or whatever, you know that, Ivan. There is helpers who are don't even used to touch the dog. The dog gets sensitive and nervous anyway. And there are there are helpers who have no feelings. They can hit the dog with a stick 100 times and they will mean nothing for that kind of dogs. >> Yes. Yes. Yeah, I mean there is the I I you know, like I I I see both points and and you're correct with having, you know, a good helper can just use their presence and that mental pressure and really [ __ ] with the dog's head and and put the stress that we need to see if the dog can handle it. But I also you know, very often uh uh I would talk to to helpers on the sideline after they just worked a dog on the trial and and I would hear it, man. If If I was just to touch him, I know it would go away. But I cannot do it. Um but to go back to the problems in Europe cuz I I really believe these are problems. Do you think that keep complying to the pressure of whatever the groups are that public perception and the activists and so on. Do you think that we will ever make them happy to where they would say, "Okay, now you guys can keep going." Cuz over the years, from what I've seen, those people are never happy. They are They just go to the next button to push and the next button to push and I feel that at some point we have to, you know, kind of draw that line in the sand and and start to defend a little bit and and educate why we do these things. At least in the future because I don't see those people I don't see how we can ever make them happy [snorts] to where they can say, "Okay, this IGP stuff is cool. We're not going to bother them." What is What do you think? That's is completely true and I also agree with all those people who say that that we have to protect it also. We cannot get We cannot get weaker and and and and and and fulfill their wishes or their complaints because next time they take the sleeve away, next time we should not have a sleeve. And that that comment is completely I understand and I agree with it also. The thing I want to tell you in this situation is that it's very difficult to them to jump on us if there is nothing to jump on. But if you think about this, when you sitting in the court for if it we make it court case of this. Everyone is complaining and there come they it's coming a new new politicals and they

want to do something and people complain and we come to a situation we come to the court. They're sitting a jury. And they have nothing to say. Uh we don't hit the dogs with anything. The dog's tail is going up. Everything is positive. They're jumping into the sleeve. They carry the sleeve. They're jumping and get dumbbells back. They're super happy. Look at this. You're okay, the judge say, but this stick that you hit over the over the shoulder. I heard a noise. I heard a sound when it smashed on the body of the dog. I see how the stick is bowed over the the over the over the back. How can you defend that? Yeah. You can't defend that. For a jury for the judge who is have nothing to do with this. But is there anything other in the sport that they can do the similar similar similar connection to? No. What can I say what can I say today? What can I say today? Man, I can be probably the best defender for the sport. I I will tell you what I would like why I personally when I cuz I do go to courts. I do deal with sometimes, not too often anymore, but I used to. Yeah. You know, you you would go to court and present or defend a case and of course the attorneys, the sharks are just trying to destroy you your [snorts] your credibility and and everything, right? >> And however, like I I believe that if we educate even educate ourselves first and then educate everybody else and have the answers because I do think that we do have the answer. And a variation of the answer is that there is there is something about adversity in in any living any animal. No matter how afraid and how human, dog, rabbit, we we all try to push our limits and try to overcome some form of adversity. That's where all the sports for humans are. That's why you know, you you kind of the moment you are able to overcome some adversity, you you grow from it. Now, it can go the other way, of course. However, I think that you know, like if you take martial arts or if you take um most sports that have some kind of you know, I mean I mean you do you do get punished for your mistake. And the dogs that like to do protection sports are a special type of animal, just like the guy that does martial arts. They can do martial arts, they can do tai chi, or they can really enjoy the the full contact spar fight within some rules, right? And the dogs that are doing protection sports, we we have they they are you know, like like you can try to convince some kid to go and fight in a ring and they're like, "That's not me. I I will roller skate. I will paint. I will But then there is the other kid that is like, 'I like it and I don't see it really as fighting for like like in a mean way, but I see

it as a chess game and as a growth and as a you know, that all the all the good sides of what that kind of combat brings to to yourself. And the dogs um are not that different, especially because we know that um if a dog doesn't like to do protection sport, there is nothing we can do. Sure, there are dumb ass people that will force the dog and put it in a corner on a table and make it bite out of no choice. And this is This should be This is just disgusting to even talk about. But this kind of dog, when they have the opportunity to say, "Okay, well, there is the bad guy or the helper 100 m away. Go and get him." He's like, "I don't." Right? And And so, the conversation can go within these lines, which are you know, we to some level everything on planet Earth that's alive searches for some form of adversity. Because overcoming adversity, even even take mountain climbing. You're climbing some rocks, you know. And you know that you're going to fall down. And this is actually part of why you're climbing. Yeah. 100% agree. And that's that's It's true. Then the other side will say, do all these dogs have a choice? If the dog could choose to just running after rabbit, have a happy life, laying home in the sofa, not follow you to the training place. What should they What should they choose? You know what I mean? I I I wish I wish that what you are saying is that how it should work normally. And And the same is if we compare it to the horse sport. I mean, the racing when they are catching trying to get the horses faster or jumping higher or whatever. It's a little bit connected to each other. Peoples today don't understand really this uh physical uh way to touch dogs or animals in general. For For people have no idea about animals, also for people who have idea, have an have an location in their head to accept that it is allowed to in this case, the stick hit in the program or to give the horse uh uh uh whatever they do with the horse when they touch them with these sticks they have in the race. I should be impressed. The The one who solved this problem will have a Nobel Prize, I would. Yeah. I I I like that way the the organizations protect our animals. We need them. We must have an opposite side uh to all this violence going on around the world uh on all kind of animals. You I know that you agree with this. And And And And I mean, people think that people say that you and I and the super nice trainers in all over the world, we are hard. We are hard to our dogs. We are abusive to our dogs when we have the leadership over them. I mean, I I I put a lot of attention now to teach people that the leadership is not violent.

Leadership is not not correct question of corrections or number of uh how many times you have to correct your dog. It's a It's a normal way of life of a pack member uh when you when you are a dog. But we start already there that if you have a leadership over your dog, you are hard and a violent person. >> Yeah, we've been called any name on Any name. Any name. Yes. So So to go from there to hit the dog in the program, it's a it's a big word for some people, you know. It's a It's a It's not easy to So I'm I'm only I'm so nervous to to to lose this the the the dog sports because we forgot little bit about what the dog sport is for in the beginning. We started dog sports, rescue dogs, protection dogs, sending dogs between certain people with messages on I don't know their English name uh because of service later on. Yes. >> They should go this this bloodlines should produce dogs for service work. So we can protect our troops in Afghanistan so the police can help us to find criminals and so on and so on. The sport is connected to that. Yes. So the brother of your world champion he is also he the brother of your world champion is had the mentality to be a police dog. The litter of six eight four five goes to the sport, two three goes to the service work. And then some people say no, it's not true. There is sport dogs and service dogs and it's very hard. No, I know exactly because this is my work. And a good litter, you need a good dog to be world champion or to compete on the high level. You cannot have a bad dog. It's impossible. He need to handle the training. This dog's sister or brother will work as a service dog somewhere in the world, for sure, yes. Um so we should connect our sport more to that to to people understand that this is not only a play. This is for for saving, I mean if we take away the protection uh sports, ring sport, IGP, Nordic protection work, whatever you call it from the the the breed of Malinois, German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Doberman Holland Shepherds, you name it. If we take that selection instrument away we will have Boxers, Collies, Airedale Terrier. Because bo- Airedale Terrier Collies and Boxers was during 1960, 50, 60 super service dogs. You see them all over the place as military dogs, as police dogs. Nowadays, if you see a Collie You know why I'm smiling why I'm smiling is because I I started with a Collie. And it was it was from m- again, that was way back in time in Bulgaria and they were very hardcore. They were like uh uh some Russian line the big, you know they stand their ground, they you know, that they do everything and I actually had a female Lassie that was doing everything, you know. Yeah. Uh

I just wanted to say this cuz this is the way >> but it's amazing. But you don't find that today. They have destroyed for they're not destroyed the dogs, they have destroyed the working abilities, the genetics for working uh during the years. Take away uh and people in in Europe say we should take away the the protection work is not necessary on German Shepherds let them breathe for God's sake yeah we will have a collie in 20 years. Yes. We will have a we will have a weak dog who would not can do anything to the breed standard anymore. So we have to pay attention and we need to protect the sport. And I tell you everything you have said to protect the the stick kids or not I agree but I only I'm only afraid of that we giving a press give a gift Mhm. to those >> Give a reason. Yeah, give a reason to keep pushing. Yeah, hopefully I don't know. I don't this is a a million dollar question, right? Yeah. What I like I my honest opinion is these people will never stop. They will eventually they will if if let's say they have it exactly how they want to have it and they totally shut down all protection sports in Europe. They going to go after I don't know flyball eventually. Agility I would for sure. Yes. Yeah, maybe you have right. Maybe you have right. Like I my my my opinion and suggestion to to anybody that can have some form of influence up there is that at some point we need to stand a little bit more firm and and defend instead of always backing up because we are where almost clearly showing them that they they have control over us at all times. And and in Europe particularly became so difficult and this is an interesting question and specially well it's not just the Scandinavian countries but in in Scandinavian countries is very very pronounced just as is Austria, Switzerland. How how did it happen that at the time like in the early 2000s when those right animal right activists and you know, they started to push into what is okay and what is not okay and what is ethical and moral and what is inhumane and so on? Why [snorts] the the dog sport people just kind of stand back and hope that somebody else will like like what happened in Europe? Like really, what happened? Think people they they give up. They don't care. They don't want to put their time in those discussions. It's so it's so difficult to have the good the best people involved in the national organizations. Uh in the different commissions or boards. They only want to train the dogs, have fun. >> Yeah. The best people many times the best people are not the ones who are representing the the countries in in those decisions. They are the people who are who are who

have time, who not train dogs so much. There is some of course. I should not say everyone is the same. But we we are too lazy. All of us who are not uh getting involved. >> We're hoping that somebody else will take care. We are hoping that somebody else and we don't care and and and we just hoping. That's true. The best ones should come together. This and I think the the the initiative they do in in this uh um from uh Germany, I lost the name just for God's sake. The group that built the Yeah, Matthias. And also uh Peter and and um Chuck and and um Yeah. What they do to try to at least build up a community with with knowledge and educate people. That's that's that's a very nice. That's the way to do it. And I I I uh Patricia. Sorry. Uh uh and um what they are doing is super clever. That's I don't know what to do. >> the the canine sports and yeah yeah yeah I know. Yes. Yes. Of course. >> They try to do something. >> 100%. I'm still a bit tired in my head. Not uh getting the name directly. Thank you, Ivan. But they are doing is but it's fantastic work because there is a lot of knowledge. These people are like world champions. They are competing all of They have They have good of feelings feelings for dogs. But the work they do together with uh yeah, together and we are a little bit involved in it. We could do more. I could do much more. I hope I can do much more when I get retired uh to helping if I can. Um I get critique because I put more attention to my social media and try to change that way. I agree that uh I should do it more uh directly. Yeah. But I also know that my messages on social media change things. Mhm. Mhm. People people are on on different levels are are listening and hearing. So, uh we can do it on on different But I could be better to join that type of initiative for sure. Yeah. All of us should be better to do it because if we go with one hand and say this is like you talk about thousands of people with good knowledge. If we decide that this is the way we will go, we will we we we will have power, for sure. What what is interesting right now for me from being in the States where we we can use training tools, we can you know, we can train dogs uh and still be very extremely concerned actually about ethical dog training and not not accept anything abusive. Um I think um I I mean I understand that it's super difficult for Europe because already the ground's been set to what is appropriate and what is not. However, it's it's it's based on on just a a false narrative on a on a fairy tale. It It's really a fairy tale. There is no like whenever they say that they have scientific science-based training and

evidence training and so those cliche words. The the evidence is never really there. But the when when um like the sports community, especially protection sports, we're trying to to educate. Don't you think that uh Europeans are just as a whole going a little bit overboard to try to present the dog always in this very you know, beautiful picture to where they're just the man's best friend and and they they're all the same and they all can fit into the same style of training and that they have the same personalities. You know, like there're there're dogs that, you know, they like how how we would say in English the the one glove doesn't fit everybody. You know, and it doesn't make it doesn't take away ethical and moral and humane training. It doesn't take uh uh um It Again, it's it's very interesting and we're starting to paint a picture of a dog that's Of course, there is this kind of dog. But then there is other dogs and other dogs and they all can be brilliant dogs. But they need a little different approach. They just need it. And it like in my opinion, it's again kind of bending to the pressure and starting to go overboard of presenting that dogs are not dogs, basically. Because any dog can get a little bit aggressive. Uh but what is aggression? Is it really a bad thing? You know, humans have dogs since they learn how to start a fire. For what? For for some sort of protection. Protection always has been playing a very important role into the evolution between the relationship of dog and human. And so it's all deeply genetically programmed, but we we start to think of it as something really bad if a dog shows it. Um You mean the special specific aggressions, you mean? Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm I'm not saying a dangerous dog, but you know, like like let's say somebody comes at home at 11:00 at in the evening unexpectedly. That would be a bad idea. Yeah. And somebody will say, "Well, these dogs are they they should not They These are not good dogs because they should accept They should be friendly to everybody." You know, that's the the problem that I see. Dogs are not supposed to be always There again, there are the dogs that are friendly to everybody, but not every dog wants to be friendly to anybody. And that's not a wrong thing. We just need to understand to control it. Just like a dog when I talk about have this discussion with first three trainers, and they would say, "Well, my dog doesn't chase a squirrel." And I'm

like, "Yeah, my One of my dogs, you can put him with five squirrels, three rabbits, and chicken, and he will do nothing. But then there was the other dog of mine that if he sees a squirrel, he skips a heartbeat, and he wants that squirrel. I mean, it's like a you know, and that's nature. We cannot pretend that it's doesn't it's not there. And if we I don't know, man. I'm just talking. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I know. I understand. You started a little bit a bit about the different trainings, equipments, and stuff like this, and difference between USA and Europe. Um and then you continue a little bit about Um this cultural relations to dogs in different in in different parts of the world. I mean still in the east part of Europe, this is a totally acceptable to have the guard dogs, to have dogs that really can guard your property. Uh you more western you come, this you more you they they we talk about more like pet dogs, you know? >> Yes. Uh if if if any dog have any attitude, people have major problems today to handle that. To don't We call it like extrovert behaves or whatever. We have In the western Europe, we have we have totally lost the knowledge of how to use that kind of dogs or that train this kind of dogs. I mean uh we we we we uh that's a general problem today because we talked about it this week when I was at work that that people have forgot to open the dog's aggression or close the dog's aggression or handle a dog during during stress or whatever. And they solve everything with the with a ball or a candy or they get surprised when the dog show up extrovert behaves. Uh in Sweden, we have this muscle, you know, the muscle cage, the muscle work, you know? Yeah, muscle. Yeah, yeah. And if you open the dogs in aggression to use the muscle too early, you need to have control over the dog, you know what I mean? And if you cannot have control over your dog, don't open the dog for God's sake. Don't open them in that behaves. Yes. So that that that's that's a that's a another million-dollar question. About equipments, uh this is a non question nowadays in in our part of the world. I mean I mean I'm a still in military officer in the armed forces and I'm working with animals with dogs. I mean we get 2 years in prison if they catch us with with the with wrong tools. Up to, I can tell you. I have not not believe anyone yet, but and when then we can go to the neighbor country Norway where they need to use for example electric collars on dogs who is walking hunting dogs who is working in the mountains because they are not allowed to to to to bite the ships. So they have to have a certificate that they don't bite on ships. Yes. Yes. That

is like that is like 1 2 hours driving from from our country. I don't protecting those equipments. I can tell you that it's it's it's it's forbidden from in the most of of Europe. Yes. 99 when Sweden started the first time with the team in the world championship, people was so surprised over the young people's knowledge about dog training. We don't have the culture in northern countries of different tools training. We have the ball, the the leash, the voice, you know, but no. 2000 in Belgium Swedish team was world champion in team. And people would understand how how is this possible to come after 2 years experience you already world champion in team. I think that one of the answers is that many of the people that did during that days were used to train the dogs with I mean do something positive whatever word it. When I came to USA the first time I went I get a shock. Because there is there was people who don't know how to learn a dog to sit without electric collars. They have collars on the back, on the on the throat, on the everywhere and they they don't know how to teach the dog with a treat. I don't I this is not [ __ ] talk. Absolutely. >> It's true. Oh, absolutely. >> So we can turn it both ways. Uh and and and and and I know the good trainers in your country when they're using different tools are experts. Should never overuse it or do stupid things. You know what I mean? You do what you need to do. And that is full respect. But the other idiots who misused those tools >> Right. I mean, I have just passed a very hard time of my life when people blame me for using Stahli on Yeah, I heard about this. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that on my own videos, on my own Instagram, they take photos and blame me for using. It was not a Stahli. Everyone knows that already. Um because I shouldn't be so stupid so I put it on on my own internet social media for God's sake. So, but they do a big drama out of this. And they were writing big big big was like, here is the military officer giving me the dog a lot of pain. And they so show a video and the dogs are super happy on the video. Not even get There was no hitting, no punishment. Tail was going, the young female was happy. There was no forbidden tools, but they want to to kill me. Yes. So which is kind of where where my where I was going with when I was saying they they will never stop, you know. These people is based on This is jealousy. They are angry, not I cannot take this personally. Of course, some of them hates me and they don't like the success we have and that we are so much better than many of the others and blah blah blah. This is the frustration of the situation of

a lot of things. We cannot We don't have time in this pod to explain that. But I don't I cannot meet hate with hate. It's not possible. I have to meet these guys with love still, even if they do very bad things against me, against my family, against my kids who are here in the school at the father is killed. They don't understand. But I cannot hate them. I don't hate them. I understand their frustration. And now they try to put me to bury me forever, but they didn't succeed. So But this is the situation in your >> know what is the crazy thing is that somehow they've convinced themselves and they they truly truly truly believe that they're protecting and it comes from a good place in in the heart, you know? They they really think that they're doing a very important and the right thing in in defending dogs and training. And that makes it difficult to to have conversations because of how much they have been convinced that that they're on the right path. And as you said United States or or anywhere else where electric collars or whatever tools are allowed you will see stupid training. And not just stupid training, just like like you wish to either walk away or walk in and take the dog out of these people cuz it's just heartbreaking to to see it, you know? Yeah. These people you take the electric collar away what happens? They're not going to become clicker trainers. They going to They going to do the same stupid [ __ ] that they do in a in a some Yeah, yeah. But we know that, too. We Yeah, and we know that, too, that the people who are jumping on others, they are maybe the ones who using those equipments by them themself most of all. You know what I mean? So, I know that many of those people who are involved against the situation here against me. I mean, I know that they are scumbags, all of them. I know that many of them are not correct to the dogs. I know that many of them use different tools. So, you have right. They only want to make a mess. They only want to make a mess. I can't And maybe have some attention, you know? I get satisfied with that. Yeah. But how could we How could you defend How can you beat Excuse me, how can you beat idiots, Ivan? It's not possible. They will win. An idiot will always win over an intelligent person. Because they are used to to wrestling in the dirt. You know what I mean? They are pigs. >> Yeah. So, you can never win over these guys. It's not possible to take a discussion with these people or try to change them. They are They have no They don't They are not interested in to solve a situation. They are only interested to make drama and and and and conflicts. So, I don't focus on them.

I cannot focus on that. Yeah. For me it's impossible to focus on that, Ivan. It's I have to focus >> man. I Again, like like the for Europe, the You know that saying, the train has already already left the station. You know, it's it's almost you you you it's extremely hard for for you to go all the way back. But I see that you guys are trying to bring some reason into the discussion carefully, and I I appreciate that. In [snorts] in the States what is interesting overall in in how I'm um Let's say, you know, like just like with guns, we we can have guns. I mean, I have guns. I have I don't know. I have things. You know, it's like it's it's easily in my rights, right? It's America. Good or bad, but that's that's who we are. And we fight like we fight very hard. And we use science, and we use uh uh competitions, and we use everything possible to demonstrate excellent training and promote excellent training, regardless how you're getting there. Because if you have excellent training, that means you have incredible relationship with a dog. That dog wants to You see the dog not afraid and scared and, you know, and we get pressured from Europe from, you know, different high level in in the organization in the working protection dog sports to where it's like, well, you cannot have pictures with training like this, or you cannot use the stick hits, or, you know, basically it is frustrating for us here that we are fighting very hard to against any abuse. But also not for somebody that has no idea how to train dogs to tell us what dog training is about. And the interesting part where I want to get to this is that we on top of everything else that we're fighting with everybody and we're very successful in the states the pressure started exactly at the same time as it was in Europe. But we have been very successful to contain it and to never allow it to happen. What is interesting is that we're starting to get pressure now from the organizations that do protection sports even though they understand and don't want to talk about it but they understand that this is not a bad thing. But because that's the pressure they have to comply in Europe are trying to force it on us here. And and that kind of puts us down like we we would in some ways expect that at least we get some kind of it doesn't need to be a support. But it doesn't need to inflict this kind of control when we know that it's not necessary. We we don't need to throw the baby out with the water. I understand.

>> Difficult conversation. No, no, yeah, yeah. But you know something, for dogs, you you say it, everyone have an opinion, you know. Everyone is specialist. I I used to do a a compare it with I mean many people have flowers at home. But not so many say that there are like educated florists, you know? Yeah. But as soon as you have a dog or two and compete a little bit, you have an opinion and you know everything. Today we have vet veterinarians who give explanations of dogs' behavior. They are not specialists in dogs' behavior. They They are good in veterinary medicine. They have a ethologist and ethological ethologists, you know? Yeah, ethologist. >> They are super good. They are Yeah, they are super good to explain the science around it, but they are not the best ones to to explain the behaves of a dog or how a dog react in different situations. You know what I mean? Yes. Uh and we can continue. Everyone think they have the rights to explain what is good or bad for a dog. How many you have in your country who's not even close to your knowledge, Ireland, who give seminars, who are in television, who are in newspapers, different parts discussing dogs? And I don't know the right word, blackmail normal people to trust their methods. Yeah. Yeah. And people are so many people are so primitive into evaluate the the value of which one should you listen to. I mean, when people should buy a house, they are super serious to to investigate all the weaknesses in the house. When they buy a new car, they read everything about this car, these models, everything. A new cream for your skin, people read the ingredients, is that good? When they buy a dog or when they buy a training concept or listen to someone, they buy everything. They are not They have no selection. Um I don't I I I I I I I There is people in Sweden in in Europe who really say if your dog hunting rabbits through [snorts] candy over the dog and put the attention to you and the dog will stop running after the rabbit. This is no joke. No, I know. I know very well. Yeah, I know very well and you know why? Because we we actually did a study. I don't know if you even know if you've heard like we I mean and these are these are kind of things that Europeans should use what we do here sometimes. Like for example, we did a very cool study using electric collar for exactly the same situation that you are talking about. Predation predation. You know, the motor pattern of predation instincts and and when when that system gets activated I mean I'm not teaching you or everybody needs to hear this more. But when that system gets activated, this is internally very strong, very

self-rewarding system that any external reinforcer or reward they're like I don't need this. I'm I have a purpose right now. I'm chasing. So, we did a study and and the force-free the all positive training we compared it. They failed 100% they failed 100% all dogs. Mhm. And we [snorts] had 100% success. But the interesting part sometimes the the force free trainers will say, "Well, you used the wrong approach with the force free and that's why it didn't work." Okay, let's let's I know that I I'm ready to do that experiment again, but let's say even that's true. What was more important in that studies that we showed that with very brief discomfort those dogs all dogs in that group, they stopped chasing. But the more important part was that there were no the side effects that the force free people wanted to believe that happen all the time. You know, fear, intimidation, pain, and and all these things and uh the dogs are afraid of the owner, they're afraid to come to the field. Oh, none of that was present. And so there there is a lot of new studies and a lot of new conversations that we have here in the states. Yeah. Um >> I understand I understand that and and what you explain is is the experience you have and and we we know this from from before when this when when it was forbidden in in in my country and in many other countries, too. So, in our country, in my country, this is a no-no. This is I mean, we we would we cannot use it and we don't we it's not necessary. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh and and we apologize to to interrupt you because >> No. No. No. But because uh it's that question is so hot. Yes. It's so hot. So, people want to misunderstanding. People want uh blame you or me or everyone else to be abusive. Uh even if we are even if we never use anything, we are still abusive people, you know, to this animal. So, if we promoting or you promoting either or other way or I say it's not allowed, we don't do it, we cannot do it, I'm against it, and so on, people will still connect it anyway how they want. In [clears throat] Sweden, we can use different lines and we can But, the the difference between from going throwing throwing candy over the dog or give them uh corrections by equipments. There is something between that you can use without being extreme on any way, Ivan. I mean, not everyone breed is a Malinois or German Shepherd. You have small Papillons. You have uh terriers, smalls. >> Yes. I mean, >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> easily get breaked by different things. But, the thing is that there is an opposite side, and and people close the discussions, and discussions that you and I have now, this is not going on.

People are so afraid about to talk about things. >> Correct. So, they hide it, and you know it, Ivan. People have to go behind the corners in different part of the Europe to to to to complete their missions. Uh service dog people, and so on. And and and and and I think it's so bad because b- b- behind the corners, when people not see, there is the place animal abusing Yes. Yes, very much so. Very much so. Because uh even even if you want to do it the right way, you you don't know what the right way is cuz it's all taboo. And now they push with all those forbidden things they do, not only equipments, everything they talk about they push the working dog peoples out in the woods. And there we have no control over them. >> Yes. There we have no ins- insight. We can't can't see what people are doing when they are not open on the clubs, for example. I think that's a very bad development of the the the the thing is going on now. This is not stopping. >> yeah, very very I I I cannot agree more with you. And not that I have any answer to this because again it's it's a so super complicated situation you guys are in. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But go- going even with the pet dogs in the states, you know, like you will have like this happens daily. I mean, I as much as I do protection dogs and sport dogs, I also am very interested in and I have a pet training business and we deal with dogs that have problems, you know. And the most interesting cases are the ones where the force-free people have tried and done and whatever and finally they're like, "Well, we've tried everything. The best thing to do is to euthanize the dog." And I'm like, "Did you ever try to even at least tell him, 'No, that's not a good thing to do.'?" Even even a simple, "No, I disapprove of you doing this." Even this is problematic, you know? And however, I think this is how we we still are able to keep our position in this is because the trainers that do pet training would take dogs that they're basically on that road. They you know, they they went through four all force free positive trainers. They were on SSRIs, mental psychotropic medications. They they did everything besides saying, "Hey, stop. Just really That's a bad idea." And to most of these dogs, that's all it takes. Just to say, "This is okay and this is not okay." And we always present real cases. Like let's say I just got a Well, it was a month ago, but I got a this postcard, you know? And and this was a dog that basically was going to be put to sleep, euthanized. 5 years old. Right? Because he was trying to bite the owner and trying to just basically a dog that's out of control that nobody says, "Hey, this is not cool to do."

Just just Yeah, this is not cool to do. And and the approach of the all positive is we going to try to deflect that and we going to reinforce good behavior and we going to avoid the bad behavior. However, you never really say, "Hey, don't do that." You know? And it saves the dog's life. And these people end up sending me postcards, being so grateful because because they have the life that they dreamed with their dog. I I know. I know. It's a There is no answer to this. >> this is a super nice This is a great story. You should You should publish that that that storyline that that dog. Tell the people what could happen with this dog. I mean, come on. We have it. We That's kind of We do this all the time and and I I will send you some some of those things. >> cool. Super cool. Hey Alva, I have to ask you, how many people do you think will listen to us two hours talking? A lot of people. Okay. Cool. >> A lot of people. I think I think these conversations are very very interesting to people. Oh, great. >> And and I I promise you that it's not going to be only IG people either, you know. No. Yeah. Um which is which is very cool. To switch the conversation because I know we kind of don't want to drain it to this cuz there is no answer to that, right? No. What Let's talk a little bit about your work, specially the the selection evaluation of working military dogs. And this personally is of of great interest to me because I I've been breeding dogs since [ __ ] 1989. I'm a I don't even want to say the years cuz it's like I'm As you said, we're dinosaurs. Mhm. Genetics and breeding selection is one of my obsessions. And so is yours. And I'm very very interested to to see and to hear you kind of breaking down the program. Because I I Of course, I watch all the cool moments of the test. But I know that there is more to it. And how how does typically a dog comes into the program? How it gets selected? What do you guys look for as a raw material? Like this this is super interesting stuff. Yeah, and we could have a special program only about that and and and and and I'm happy that I have the opportunity to explain because people are very curious about actually what is happening in Sweden. It's it's a it's pretty unique. It's only actually two places in the world where they have similar not that numbers and that's in New Zealand and in Canada. They have a a small program in Canada of German Shepherds, too. And not registered dogs FCI. Swedish armed forces started up this breeding 2004. The reason was that we didn't get the numbers of dogs to to to for service work to educate the soldiers and to fulfill the the the work we should do. So

the politicals politicians decided to we should be like self to get our own dogs by ourselves. And and that was a super hard work in the beginning because we get females from the civilian market from the sports lines dogs lines mainly. And the number we had at the beginning was that is official. This is no no secrets at all. It was 80 females. So that is the numbers we are around still. Um and we have to produce couple of hundred dogs a year because of of the work. Not only because to to teach to have dogs for the for the work for the for the soldiers or training up the the dogs for service work. We need to have a certain number to continue the genetics to work to make the genetics better, you know. There is a lot of things that you need to to change in our breeds that a small breeder never can reach during a lifetime. I mean, you started 89. Even if you should have 10 liters a year, I mean, you should never reach your success before you die because I mean, you can you produce good dogs. >> story, absolutely. >> But if you want to change something, you have to have a high number. Um and and and um to produce high numbers of dogs, then you can have the chance. And we have the best genetics uh uh working in the military. They are specialists in this. I mean, we have the breeding responsible uh are uh there are the best people you can find to counting genetics and DNA and you know, all these kind of stuff. And then you have the other guys like nerds like me who knows the lines and the behaves and do the tests. So, we are a super nice team together who can uh I mean, we have never reached that success so so fast without all this knowledge. And of course, the support we got from from the Swedish people who who pay taxes so we can breed those dogs. I mean, this is the end of the day. I mean, and we are responsible to be open and we must give information what we are doing. Um and the system is is not a science, actually. I mean, puppies are born in the middle of Sweden, a little bit north. Um the female comes there a couple of weeks before she get birth. When the dogs are 8 weeks, they go to normal families. They go out to normal families, voluntary families. People say, "Are you crazy? All their voluntary families who want puppies?" Yes, we have a lot of fantastic families who who have those small gangsters until they are like 15 16 months old when they come into tests. And every family have a help desk. I can call them help desk. They are connected instructors trainers under different regions of Sweden who are their help desk almost 24/7 to to help them. They make a fantastic work. Uh so that when they come to the test, the

dogs are not trained, but they are socialized and stimulated. Do you know what I mean? They have no experience from competitions or stimulated in protection work. They are pure Open open book, yes. Open books. And that's in purpose because to if you want to come to close to genotype as possible, you need to see the numbers. The litters is interesting. The individuals one dog is not so interesting. You will test it a litter a day, you know? We tested all six to eight in one day. We try to do that. It can be two days or over two weeks, but we try to get the whole litters together because then you have the answer of the genetics. And with that answer, the breeding works the responsibles put take out new breeding dogs, females and males to continue the program. The test is the made by me and a uh ethologist from from um from before he he has quit now. He was retired. There is new one. But we we have a a test the first test we did 2005 4 5 was a test during 2 and 1/2 hours. I want to have more. I want to do more of that. I want to know. Pierre, come on. You cannot make a test 2 and 1/2 hours in summer time. Those family dogs will die after 30 minutes. We have to make it smaller so we can test 10 eight 10 dogs a day, six eight 10 dogs a day. So and all the dogs now have passed over 4 and 1/2 thousand dogs have have been tested in this system. The same system diff- five different parts of Sweden inside mainly, but the same part same moment, no differences. We are super consequent. This is same tests. And families are not interesting to to try the test before because they are not selling the dogs to us. You know what I mean? I get often critique that dogs can get trained on these different parts. Okay, one, I see if dogs are trained, of course. Two, those families are not dog dealers. They don't want to mix and tricks to get the dog I mean there are like families who are >> They're not selling dogs to >> Oh, they are No, so they are not trained. So, they're coming to the test like green books and we make all those different test situations and then we have an evaluation score and then we then we It's like 40 minutes of the dog's life. So, it's nothing. I mean, I'm not a I'm not Messiahs. I cannot say everything. I can give a It's a It's a It's a signal for us if this dog is okay to go to next step. And what is next step? It's to go to our fantastic trainers. We have on different parts of Sweden, of course, education centers. We have one big center in in in in Stockholm. They mainly trained all most of the dogs, but also the other parts of Sweden is is training going on. And the dogs comes goes there when they are 6 months

and then they are have like two, three, five, four months to develop. >> Yes. If they are good, if they can continue, teach them everything. If they are not good and they are >> is still on, of course. It's still on. So, those [clears throat] 40 minutes is like only small part of the of the life and it's actually not saying so much if you want to be a good tracking dog or or search dog or whatever. It says more like you have capacity, you have the right working abilities to continue. >> Potential and you are not dangerous, you're not uh um shy for gunshots and stuff like this. And of course, there's overall you see the overall flying up and the scramble test and stuff like >> loves, that one. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's a It goes always goes viral on on social media. >> [laughter] >> Oh, every time. It's so popular. And people likes it and they they comment about it. And I I see it also coming up on different parts of the world. The tribe people try to use it. So, but it's what you say, there is so much small things in between that we could go into right now, either. But then we will sit here until tomorrow, maybe. Because there's a special evaluation we do. We not only evaluate if the dog flight fight or flight. I mean, fight [snorts] or flight. We we evaluate everything. >> Trainability. Yeah, put everything into a into a computer system. The computer counting out the calculation of numbers. You know, so but the system is uh I had went out very nice. Okay, we are not perfect. We do still a lot of bad things. Um not so much as in the beginning. We are uh still learning. Uh and everyone is not happy. Many people are happy. Um but this is the right way today. All the soldiers have dogs. We train everyone. No one need to waiting so long time to get the new dog and stuff like this. So, um it's it's a fantastic way uh to to in this ca- in this case, making the German Shepherd a little better, at least. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, if you if like like for the people that listen and of course, I'm selfish here. During the 40 minutes, if you have to break down the the most important traits, the most important characteristic that you want to see in a dog. What would those be? Environment stability stability. Because an environment stable dog also have the nerves, the courage, the memory not to memory bad experience to well forget easy. There's so much connected to if you are environmental stable or not. >> Yes, very true. Because environmental environmental sensitivity it's it's highly genetic and it's a precious function. And Ivan, that's the only thing that separate the good sport dog from a good service dog today. Because there's only one

what I know, only one competition that really checking environmental stability and that is a rescue sport. Mhm. In IGP, we have no checking of the environment stability. Mondioring, you are young dog >> have the gunshot but the gunshot >> but come on. weak that's all. >> Gunshot to climbing up climbing up 30 m up on the on the stairs you can see what you call the stairs with like fence what you call ladder ladder Yeah. Yeah. Uh to working up there to find drugs, weapon or to bite a bite bite people 30 m up or on the ship in the water in the middle of the ocean waving like this go down from a helicopter searching there. Come on. Yeah. This is I mean the sport dog have prey drive. They run of the ball, the bite, they they they can bark, they can search on the ground tracking. But to do it in different environments they this we have not tested the last 100 years in the sport dogs. Yeah. Therefore, we have good breeding dogs in the sport who is a very weak in the different environments. Yeah. That's that's the the the you know I mean I I G P I I love I G P. Belgian ring is probably the sport that will expose environmental instability the best of all all sports. Um >> But it's too small, you know. It's too small numbers of >> and it's actually even it's even smaller today than than even 10 years ago, unfortunately. >> I agree and they also money during you have different um different um environmentals much much better than for example I G P who have green grass Yeah. >> and dirt in the tracking, hopefully. Otherwise, you're never testing. Okay, now the the the R S V and S V have a kind of a temperament test, western test they call it in German. They have some tables to try. That's much better than nothing. >> Something. Yes, I agree. >> much better than nothing. So, I like it that they try. They try at least to change it. Yeah. What about going like now I just mentioned Belgian ring and I I still remember me and it was a big big lesson for me when I first started breeding and I was going to get dogs and like it's a very common in in the the Belgian ring to where the breeders would be like Like, I would I would look at a female that they just bred and and she just she doesn't she she has no interest to bite even. But, they will say, "Well, she's excellent mother and her bloodline is what we are after." True. What How How do you guys What do you Do you ever consider female like this in the program or or or you know? Yes, of course. So, there are different things in the books, many eggs in the basket. The best working dog female necessary is not the best producer. Right. We have seen that a lot when we testing these dogs. I mean, the mother of a

puppy of a litter must be calm, stable, [snorts] and caring for the puppies, right? >> So, and you don't and you never know it before the first litter. Because you have to test them and the system we have in in in in Sweden in the armed forces that every female get normally two litters before we evaluate if you can continue or not because one can be like Yeah, bad luck or whatever. Every male get that we put in the breeding have three litters first. Bang bang bang. And then they wait. They stop to use him for a certain period to evaluate his offspring. If he produce, he can have another one or two, maybe three. But, then they start to use we start to use the the sons from him directly. Because then the genes get stronger and stronger and everything, you know? So, easy easy explained, this is the way. And the females in Sweden can have maximum five liters, maximum five. Um many of them mostly have like three, four. And then they are using the daughters the same way. So, yeah. Uh that's the system they use it so correctly. Not the hardest, fastest, biggest, best biters is the best producers. No, never. Yeah. Yeah, very very that that Yeah, I I >> But the problem is the problem in the dog sport world, I'm not I think it's the same with a Malinois, but for German Shepherds for sure, is that the breeders must use famous males. Otherwise, they don't get rid of the puppies. Yes. >> That's the worst that happen. And there's again the social media and all these databases who promote nice dogs, famous dogs with the champions. People go there, breeder, no match, bad match, they go there, breed, get rid of the puppies, and they don't get nothing out. Maybe they should use the the farmers German Shepherd registered with no titles. Yes, because >> Maybe that is the one you should use. But no, no, they travel hours to the champion and use that one and think this is a perfect because I get rid of my puppies. So, that's another problem we can talk about all day. >> And the genetic the genetic pool, the number of dogs they just start to get so narrow and it's this one, no matter how good it is, eventually the good starts to become weak and neurotic because there is nothing new coming in, nothing strong to keep it fresh and and Yeah. Do you do you have access to like, let's say, you know, uh uh what once the dog goes into the army and are you following up and can you use these dogs that are already out there for stud? >> Of course. Cuz that that's really >> yes. So, that's have been much better last years. But for yes, they're following up the job, especially the breeding males. So, the breeding females will not go in work mainly. They stay at

families because it's difficult for them if they are abroad for service working. Uh, we cannot use them. They can go in heat and are not in Sweden. So, it's mainly the males who are uh, we use females also, but not the breeding females are not in are not in um, in in in in in service work. >> Mhm. So, and and we also collected the semen from them using semen and stuff like this. So, the breeding worlds the responsibles they they they do fantastic work to to make this uh, going going on and make it better. Yeah. What do you think of the more broad picture of the German Shepherd world? Um, is the breeding overall improving? Is it staying the same or compared to like let's say 15 years ago or 20 years ago, where where is the German Shepherd in the world today? I hate I hate to say it that it was better before or something. It It sounds like we are like dinosaurs again. >> Mhm. Um, I am very nervous about the civilian side of the of the of the of the that breed. Yeah. >> the breeding, yeah. >> I I I I am I am worried because it's um, it's a for me I'm also civilian breeder as you know. >> Yeah. It's a very hard for me to find uh dogs for breeding. What is the What is like if you give two of the main concerns that you would always watch like okay, I see a good German Shepherd. What would be the two things that you want to really make sure that they have what they can do in order for you to say okay, this boxes have to be checked. First of all, I see too much. I recognize too much of a dog already on distance. This is I mean think about it 4,000 more than 4,000 meant temperament test. So I mean as extreme specialist of course in that breed. >> Yes. Uh so I sometimes I want to close my my sense of attention for Yeah, stop. Don't think about it. >> to give it a chance. Maybe maybe you're wrong. Because I find problems in every every dog including my my own dogs of course. First of all, I say a dog must say yes, thank you to the life. opened Come on. Hello. Even when you're on a bad mood, the dog makes you happy just looking at him. >> I mean I love to stay in a world championship. Naturally, I love to stay on the veterinary check. I just stay there. Little bit drinking a coffee, say nothing. Like see them when they're coming there. >> [snorts] >> You know, that said that character test is amazing. You know what I mean? Some dogs showing up with a with a with a ball in the mouth. Not Why why do they do that? When they when the veterinary start to check them, testing the checking everything. I mean, you you you see a lot. I am not interesting in the grip. I'm not interesting how fast they come in the long attack. I'm not interesting

how how they grab the dumbbell. And nowadays, especially with German Shepherd, there are so many of the lines is so lazy. They have stopped. They need rewards. I mean, the Malinois breeds in general, in that case, is far ahead. Then the Then the Belgian breeds have other problems, for sure, but they're willing to please for working for nothing. Is today not the same. I mean, I don't know if you remember the old We can say this I mean, that's a really one. I mean, he was world champion '92. So, this is couple of many years back, you know. Orry Haus Amtzberg from from uh Orry Yes, No Atlas. No Atlas. Masuda later on. All those dogs during that period. I mean, look at the dogs, how they answer a small correction from the handler. Get active. Come on. We want to do this. They have the heart. If you do that today on the German Shepherd wrong lines, either they bite you, attack the handler, or they get weak and don't want to go out of the car anymore. Not all lines. There is still fantastic lines, but I say it again, we we breeders have destroyed because we had used popular dogs to get rid of the puppies easy. >> Yeah. We have We are not every time using the best producers. Yeah. Sadly. Yeah. That's That's not easy in the civilian world, just as you said. No. have to sell the puppies. Like I'm fortunate enough that I've done it long enough. You can do it. >> That I have >> do it, Adam. I have people waiting for puppies all the time. Like a long list for people waiting and and then I I can afford to do what most civilians cannot. I can breed to that one dog that nobody knows and will never know. But yeah, this is this is very interesting stuff. What about the the structure? Because the like to me the the dogs when they like for me when I look at German Shepherd and I see everything and I'm like, okay, I like I like it. But then it comes to the 1 m jump and I'm like paying attention. Like I'm really paying attention. How is is the dog free when it jumps or is it in its head? Or is it only in its head, but is it also the structure like like what what do you think of comfort structure? quality >> Sure is Jumping technique is 100%. You can fix a bad genetic and you can destroy a good one. Mhm. I mean, it's definitely look at the Dobermans for example. Yeah. Look at many How many Dobermans do you see jumping bad? They always stretch the back legs, no? Yeah. But at the same time, it's also a question of the prey drive. Because the Dobermans may be not have the extreme prey drive as an extreme Malinois or an extreme German Shepherd. So when you put in the prey, the dumbbells in this case, and stupid training jumping at the same

time, you destroy a good genetics, too. So I know lines that have problems with jumping, but I also know lines that are super nice jumpers, but the people where where people have destroyed it. So often many times the jump techniques uh are connected to how do you teach them training And and we people say that some lines, some breeds have more or less problems, but I say yes, it's possible, but the training systems is also very strange. I mean, you know that you never teach your dog to jump off the ball. You should never do that. I never should never teach a dog to jump off the ball. No one do it. We do it. We We teach the dogs to jump and then after when everything is correct, we put in the doubles at the last. They don't They don't use I mean Cuz that you're not allowing the dog to focus on the jump at all. And then all of a sudden we have a problem. And yeah. So, and we need we teach them long jump before high jump to teach them to stretch and all these different things. So, the critique that we say now that we are maybe changing the angle of the A-frame I don't think that will destroy any breed or if they fall with 2 m stride and jumping, okay, you destroy some dog. The jumping issues is not I know very bad training systems where they destroy the dogs jumping that when the dogs get afraid of the jump. >> Yes, cuz you might have You can take the best breed, the best individual dog and and destroy them. Yeah, I agree. Uh-uh and and people do stupid things in panic when they start to touch the jump instead of using the head and be be calm. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, start to punish dogs who is touching and stuff like stupid things. >> you you you really literally create the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. you >> get in the dog's head for sure. That's very interesting. Good. I don't know how much time you have. Can I ask one more or few more? Okay, good, good. Cuz I know people would love this conversation and I'm curious. Let's let's break down tracking. We have the IGP tracking. I'm assuming that you guys in the military do some tracking. How what is different? No, okay. No, no. The service dog's tracking is very opposite than general. Police dogs, military, you know. Uh then then the different example the IGP track. This is not logic at all. Uh the reason I love the IGP track is because it's when I started I didn't do the same as I do in work every day, you know. I mean, the tracking for a service dog is more search work than really tracking, actually. And when we create an I good IGP dog, we are stretching the the the the way how a dog can concentrate on a smell. More like the classic old mine detection dogs. Yeah. To go slowly

on a certain line to detect mine mine. And if you go too fast, you will you will explode. So, the IGP is a more like a mix between the service dogs search track and the service dog's mine tracking mine searching style. And and so we we we we all IGP dogs can track super nice with full tight line, full speed when the grass is so high, it's no problem. Yeah. They stay in the stay in the middle and take all the corners and mark all of this. It's no problem. Many can do that. But the one who can on dry dirt, super windy, stay in the middle. When it comes to the corner, evaluate the corner with open mind, not closed, not afraid to make mistakes, to open to take this corner with high concentration, to mark and indicate the the article for the handler in positive way positive way without touching. That's a master training. >> It's a beautiful thing to see. It's a beautiful thing to see. No question. >> That That is the most difficult part of our program, Ivan. Yeah. The one who can do that is the best trainers in the world. Finish. Yeah. We can compare that type of training system to the people who teach dolphins to jump 20 m in a ring or have a ball on the nose or whatever, you know what I mean. I mean, if you can solve that because if you killing your dog with bad methods, the dog will not show nice attitude in the corners or when they losing the smell and they will get get killed by the judges. If you are not teaching a dog to respect for the smell, they teach like a Formula 1 car, they will run out in the first corner on the hard dry dirt. So, tracking is the master part of the program and I love it. How do you Do you ever take something from the army to put into the tracking for IGP and from the IGP to put something into the military tracking? >> For sure, I cannot Okay, I mainly based train because of my civilian knowledge from the from from my I get my first German Shepherd when I was 12 years old. And I have always have dogs. I have a Australian Silky Terrier before that one. So, but of course my education in my work have given me experience that I can use in the competition and opposite. So, I mean we have many service dogs who never comes to the end because they're tracking so bad. I mean they're running around in a in the leash and that they're losing the tracks too too often. So, we can implement it the the the curiosity the the sharpness from IGP for sure into the the service work. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can definitely put in the drives and the and the concentrations of from the mind searching or for the man searching into IGP. So, of course you can balance these

two. Also in the beginning of the training for sure. >> Mhm. Yeah. That is >> But we have tracked together you and me 2014. You remember? Yeah. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Um Yeah, man. That's a >> is for me tracking is for me the number one art of the everything. You know, recently I made a post on social media cuz I was genuinely curious to hear from people. And I got interesting comments and um like like I mean with your experience it would be very interesting to hear your your opinion on this. My my question was about a dog that's tracking IGP tracking dog that maybe it it's high nose what you would call and a little open mouth. However, makes the track very well. And sometimes I'm thinking, well, if the dog makes it without problems. But, it doesn't show that intensity. Is it because it's too easy? Is it because it doesn't have uh motivation and genetically like Like, how do you separate and how do you score sometimes dogs that would do that? Would that necessarily right away be uh uh deduction in points? Or you know like when when you have a dog that I understand. can track uh he finds his corners, he tracks identical to any good tracking dog, but for some reason they they're a little open mouth. Um what do you think? Not that I have I This is totally out of Yeah. >> this is good question. So, open mouth or not open mouth or whatever, this high up or this high up, as soon as they do the work, he's positive, he try to find everything, it's a very hard to take points away from it, yeah? On the other hand, you can say you can try to taste smell a nice uh wine with open mouth. Yes. Yes, a lot of dogs get sent also from >> Yeah, I know. And we do. We also. But, you can never have maximum uh attention with open mouth. So, but still as a judge, you can never take anything if the dog make no mistake. Even if the mouth is closed or open. I work a lot to teach my dogs to not open the mouth. I I when I teach when I working with in them in in in summer time is very warm. Just like 10 steps 10 m 10 steps before I see that start to open I I stop them and we take it easy we rest give little food. So they never get advantage to open the mouth. If you pay attention to that in the beginning. So as soon as your dog start to open here is the next step is to open the mouth because they need they need to ventilation it's warm. I say okay stop plus leak good boy good girl give food take it easy. >> [panting] >> I can wait 5 minutes if it's necessary and then we continue again maybe 10 steps again 20 40. He's the And when soon as I start to open we take it easy. So I never let them in the beginning. Yeah. I love it. How often >> to pay attention you have to pay

attention in the beginning Ivan because if you don't and you they get advantage to to complete the track with full of the mouth they will open mouth directly because they get smell and and a smell from a human being in in in in in grass or in easy dirt this is no problem for dog one hour old is nothing I mean come on. For the people that are listening that are doing IGP if you want to give them some advice tracking advice beginning our trainers that are starting tracking or have problems with tracking. Any kind of more general suggestion that typically people we we see making mistakes when they start to teach tracking. What what would you Yeah the biggest mistake is that they teach the the first mistake is that people before they track have no obedience control over the dogs. Puppy, young dog, whatever. So, they cannot go in the street with loose line before they start the track. This is number one. So, before because I see too many trainers give the dogs full power with full tight line the first two months one month, one year, and then suddenly figured out they will go with slow tempo. Yeah. No. Directly we teach the dog this is the speed. Please, can you do it? Teach your dog what is slow, what is fast. I go in the city, on the street, on the road. I go with slow, slow. Okay. Running, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I run with my dog. Slow again. This is slow. Do good girl. Good. You understand me? >> Yes. And I continue. When your dog can handle that on the side, I go to the track with my food. First time, not the second time, not the fifth time. Slow. And then I can tight the line up and give my dog the opportunity to go with with the higher speed. Much And then I say slow again. This is the only tip I will tell everyone. Before you start to track have communication with your dog. Don't make 10 15 tracks with tight lines because when the dog pull you in the line he will miss the step, the smells from the step. It's not possible for a dog with full power in the line to recognize every piece of food or every step. Please. Cuz a lot of the brain is busy with the line instead of They are pulling you and they want to go forward and in the end of the track is very happy. What would you tell What would you tell in your opinion, what is a sufficient number of tracks? Like I just to clarify my question. I have sometimes people Oh, I'm going to start tracking. How often you track? I go on Sunday. I'm like not enough. What What do you suggest? What would What do you is kind of the optimal number? And it's probably different also for every dog. I mean, some dogs we can track twice a day and some dogs are like one time is enough. Yeah, I understand.

>> But in the beginning, what is the optimal number on average that somebody should start when they start tracking? Amateurs, minimum three two three four times a week if possible. And give the give the breakfast in the track if you can. Or the night dinner in the track if you can. >> Yeah. Professionals, I can tell you during a certain time when I teach my dogs, you can make five eight tracks a day. Not super long everyone, but the routine, the tracking flag, the car, the road, the different angles, everything. Five eight a day. Rosu, he was an ex- excellent tracking dog. Everyone is the dogs they have. He made 100 points in in the world championship in Slovakia with this hard dirt. Um he was like Okay, at the end of the his career, he we tracked two or three times a week. In the beginning, we had around 20 tracks a week. Yeah. Yeah, tracking it's just My family knows this, you know. >> [laughter] >> My family knows so much we I put in the tracking. And we all my all my groups did it. My group the last the last year 2025 in the world championship in Slovenia, the only team that have excellent in track was my five dogs. Look at the results. All our five dogs get excellent in tracking. Love it. The system works even if you live in camera, you would say Italy, Denmark, or Sweden. You know, when you said camera in tracking, I wish that and I know it's not easy, but it shouldn't be that hard anymore like 20 years ago. Why do we not film the tracking on the competitions? And we always film >> They do. And they start to? Yes. The Slovenia the track the the track I've seen them more competitions. Okay. Yeah. All trackings are filmed. If you go to the WUSV 2025 Nova Gorica, you can see all the tracks in on working dogs. That's great. Yeah. I guess we don't do them in the Malinois world. At least I'm not sure about it. I don't think they do it. What's your favorite phase? Tracking? Tracking. Yeah. I love it. And as far as um Well, you kind of answered that question. Like how soon when you see a dog, regardless if it's protection, obedience, or tracking, how soon you can tell that dog gets my attention or that training gets my attention. When you recognize something of of different quality. How quickly can you pick up on it? >> I I see I am I am done with the dog's work pretty fast. Also, you know, in tracking or in in in obedience and protection work. And it's very hard to explain what exactly it is, right? But but there is this Oh, I see I see you got my attention. I'm watching. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you know the same. How what what what is what is the point you are what could you point this is the thing I look at? That's right. But but but

But sometimes you have to give the the team another chance. And And the question is not if you can train only the best dogs and the best handlers. The question is if you can train the medium dogs and medium handlers to success. That's the most challenging and for me interesting. I mean, when you come with your show line dog there on the masters, everyone says what the heck is this? And you make the best obedience with that dog. You remember? Yeah. Yeah. That's the challenging, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, that's always interesting stuff. Yeah. Man. Great. Super conversation. We have to continue. Maybe we'll do another one in one year or something. >> No, no, we do we do have to. What's coming up? What's what's the program for you for this year? Competition, judging, where, what's going on? Yeah. Some judging, yes. I I have just taken the Mission Impossible. I have take over a dog I bred for 5 years ago to try to fix him. Uh fantastic dog, super energy, super working abilities, 5 years old, trained for sure. A good girl have trained him. Uh but he is trained by by he's very happy. >> [laughter] >> And I need to stabilize this this happiness into some concentration also. >> For that >> [laughter] >> I'm struggling a lot with that. But it's a big challenge and the family love the dog. And uh That's that's the thing. If I can come out this year or maybe not, I'm not sure. But This is maybe the first dog in many years I have super fun. He's line bred Rosso actually, so maybe that's the reason I love him. You know, some dogs just go into your heart even if they are not super easy to to train, they stay anyway. Some dogs you say, "Okay guys, the time the time for you and me is to separate now. We have seen enough of each other." Uh but this guy is give me fun every day, so that's something. Continue the team. We have new dogs in the team is coming up. Try to motivate them. Try to motivate the other ones who have succeed. Try to motivate Natalie and my helper Niels. He's coming with a new dog. He was 11 last last year first world championship 24 years old. He have a new dog, so yeah, life goes on. That's how I ended up with my fourth dog that you know, like there there is some similarities of what I I do very similar thing with the dogs that I train. So, I I would breed. I would select certain puppy for to train for like personal protection cuz it's part of what my business is. Like I would sell protection dogs to to people that really need it, you know. Like people that really need them and there places in the world as you know to where there is all sorts of kidnapping and all sorts of things that are happening. And

and so, what I do, I do very much the same as in your program in the army, I would select the puppy and I will give it to somebody that I know and I trust. Raise it to 14 months or so. So, he came back at 14 months. And he would have been worth a lot of money. And in day two I just couldn't. I'm like I have to keep him. Keep him, yeah. And and my wife, Natalia, is like, "You're you're out of your mind. This is dog number four. When you going to have time?" But But exactly kind of how you got excited about the 5-year-old. That That was like a I'm I'm doing it. You know. >> Yeah. I understand. It's crazy. Fantastic. So, thank you, man. Thank you for this. I will see you somewhere in the competition and uh um beautiful conversation, Pierre. Yeah. Thank you so much. And >> See you later. Absolutely, man. >> And put your best luck for the poll, everything. Take care. >> Ciao. >> [music]