Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 27: Debbie Zappia 파트 2

to be able to teach the sport of tracking um it's not so much relying on the dog's ability to scent as it is teaching them again behaviors that they have to do around a track to get from point a to point b with article search and scent detection you are relying more on the instinctual behaviors of the dog and then you're incorporating them into a sport that's going to test those things so that's where we came in there so the way we've set it up is we actually have the article search in in the as1 we have detection the first part of detection in the as2 and then we have a more advanced level of detection in the as3 so what what would they search and how big the area and terrain and and all that yeah for the as1 the article search it's a 40 by 40 field um we have it set up if you look at the book where individuals clubs can kind of mark off their field so that the dog knows the perimeter of the field um and there's two articles there's one article that's on the right and there's one article on the left and if again if you look into the rule book it'll tell you the distance from the outer boundaries and the inner boundary where you have to walk that the articles have to be laid but the dog has to search freely it takes six you have six minutes to complete the test they have to be able to indicate the articles hold an indication while you pick up that article and then you have to be sending your dog again and the judge is looking for the ability of your dog to take direction from you as well as its hunting ability its searching ability um how long it can withstand without losing direction and intensity so all of those things are what we're looking at at that test level i'm assuming you're saying is everybody in the trial using that same space or they are different 40 by 40s no everyone's using the same space and before the first person goes that whole area is trampled so everybody that's there watching the particular that particular trial is walking all over the field trampling it down so that it's more equal for each participant that's going the articles what what are the kind of tips some similar to igp or or you have different articles for that right now it's igp articles we felt that that that was the easiest thing if somebody from igp wanted to come over to our sport that they would be able to do that quite easily as we progress our intention is to go to things like shell casings um things that are are used more in real life situations but right now we are using articles from igp if

somebody is to get ready for that test like what is the what how do they uh uh differ in in the levels like one two three you have three levels of as right yes so the first level is the article search so that would be completely different from detection work the first thing you're doing is an article search with your dog we're looking at that you're getting that score the second level that you're doing is detection and that is uh we're using right now a black powder and there are for the for the actual one level there's 30 blocks and the black powder is two two fines one in a block at one side and one in a block at the other side so the judge can mix it up as long as they're not really close to each other they could set them up in two straight lines 15 and 15 they could do 10 10 and 10 and the dog will start the search and finish the search the handler when the dog alerts on something will call an alert the dog has to maintain that alert for a few seconds then the handler can call them off of that alert and send them on to find the next one when they find the second alert then that will be the end and the the um handler will have to call clear and the timer stops it's timed and it's still um it's still in that 40 by 40 or it's a different setup no that's a different setup so that can be indoors or outdoors depending upon the weather so if you had an indoor barn or a building you could set yours up in there you could set it up on a field um the perimeter i don't even know exactly the perimeters we set it up in a 40 by 40 building and and you're able i mean you should be able right to to have the different levels to have where you have the 40 by 40 with the article search and then the detection work in the same trial correct oh yeah it's always yes in the same trial we're doing ones twos and threes already all in the same trial and so it just depends on what you have as area like i have enough area that i can set each thing up separately yeah but if you don't then you could have one area that you set one up in and then another area you'd be setting up your detection in you don't need a ton of space to set up detection like a 40 by 40 area is a big enough area to set your detection up right when it comes to the three level you have your the blocks are exchanged for for luggage so you have luggage that the dog is searching and then you have two vehicles that the dog is searching and again you don't need a tremendous amount of space um it's much easier to accommodate than tracking and the dogs

are off leash on leash how is that the dogs are on leash for we actually toyed with letting them off leash and then thought it would just be easier for judging criteria to have all of the dogs on leash for the detection of course off leash for article search because the dog has to be able to search an area and and what about uh the aging the time after like the the objects are laid or the the powder really isn't much aging involved so once the judge has directed where the articles are they can call the handlers in and the handlers can then start the search with their dog detection uh we we have different aging i think it has to be over i have to look myself sure 30 minutes i think um and it can go up higher to two hours so i think it's depending upon the judge where it is how the you know your trial is going and how you're actually setting it up but you have a range of time that you can set it up for yeah so that that that definitely will call for uh a specific training for for this um and and how do you find what do you feel so far now that you've had few trials and and things have been going how how do you find it's working um with uh with articles and the detection part how how are people do they struggle do they like it how are the dogs how how is it going right now i think all of that all of the above i think that the handlers like it they're enjoying doing it um of course it's a change for all of us so that's a learning curve um it it isn't easy to switch over to that so if i'm talking about myself with this i was very accustomed to tracking tracking was in my wheelhouse right i was good in obedience my dogs tracked because i was good in obedience i could teach my dogs to track and i was in control when i changed over and had to do an article search i can't be as much in control so that is much more based on the instinctual abilities of that dog right each dog has has different levels of hunt drive you're as a trainer you're trying to expand those if your dog doesn't have quite enough if your dog is so crazy to hunt of course you're trying to pull that back in but you don't have the level of control that you have on a track so that was a very difficult thing for me who wants to be in control all the time um it was fun once i started it was fun and because i have two little hunting dogs and have to do some of the same things with them i started to get a better understanding and handle on it as i went but that was a learning curve for me detection at least at the detection two level i think is is easier maybe it's because it's a little

more controlled environment there for the dogs they seem to catch on to odor pretty quickly of course then it's all the rest of it right how how you're approaching it reading your dog everything else that would be involved in any other sport that you would be doing with an animal and then at the three level it gets more difficult the luggage is definitely more difficult than the blocks and the searching of the vehicles so that again every time that you you go a little bit higher it gets a little more difficult um but that i think was a little easier for me than the article search because there's a little more control there where the article search i had to let go of some of the things that i was good at does that answer your question yeah yeah i'm just thinking as you're as you're talking i'm trying to to picture everything and uh it really looks um i mean a lot like you know combination between certain nose work trials and and actual detection police work and and the kmpv program some some element and uh and and and what i'm thinking is like i personally wouldn't see necessarily a problem at least like for my dogs the way i train tracking that they will get confused like i i really do believe that i would be able to do tracking and do american shots at the same time without having a conflict just because it's a the environment the antecedents they call for a specific things and you know i i would assume that the dog will have no problem with that just like if we go to uh you know swimming pool we we know that we're going to be doing something in the water versus a basketball court and and you know so i i really think this is actually um different enough within the environment within the antecedents that it shouldn't be a problem to to create confusion in the dogs but you know before we go further i'm a little curious to hear a little bit more how uh your take on the tracking as you say that you see it more of a obedience more of a discipline program because uh i do i can kind of see a little bit how how you might see it that way but um i would think you agree that when um when you see a dog that has that kind of training that is based on discipline and obedience they can either make the 99 points or fail miserably simply because they are not taught to actually track right i'm not sure if i see it myself tracking as strictly obedience like the igp tracking of course is more precise so there is some rules of you know narrowing it down and making it as tight as possible versus search and rescue or police type tracking that

type of dog that is just doing obedience on the track is really not encouraged anymore in igp um i don't know i'm just curious to kind of hear your take on on how how you see the the tracking and is it just every tracking or specifically the the igp tracking that you see more as an obedience exercise yes it's the igp tracking that i see more as obedience exercise not certainly not if you're doing hard surface tracking that would not be the case if you're doing police tracking that would not be the case but igp tracking is you're you're taking a dog and you're saying to that dog do not use your natural instincts do not use your eyes do not lift your head do not go at the speed you want to go at keep your nose to the ground only use that move forward in the way i want you to move forward when you get to a turn and let's say you've missed it these are the steps you're going to take to find it you're going to be very accurate at that turn i'm going to give you the tools that you need to make that turn when you make that turn this is the way i want you to do it and i want you to go to the next exercise i am taking away all of your natural instincts you are not allowed to use them and you are going to do what i tell you to do except for your nose that's it and that's why i look at it as obedience if i can teach obedience i can do that if i can't teach obedience i cannot do that efficiently not for high levels of track and i'm going to say this i can take a dog without hunt drive and i can score very high on a track i cannot do the reverse even even when the tracking is not uh you know this kind of moonwalking is it tracking with a nice large grass or soft dirt or whatever absolutely that like 100 percent yeah i mean we probably not probably we we would disagree to some level on that piece here which is totally cool um i i see it as um like all of the things that you're saying that there is a certainly a artificial component into igp tracking it becomes because of the the points and how is judging you know we know it has to become to some level very uh the precision comes to become kind of artificial but at any time the tracks become a little bit difficult that's when you see the dogs that are trained through obedience and the dogs that actually understand tracking because um i i know many dogs in in my career the track that they understand tracking and they can track better than police dogs better than than many dogs because of the proper training for igp um but yeah i mean well maybe we're talking semantics because i would certainly agree with

that a dog that actually understands to track with its nose down is is going to be good and it's going to figure some things out but when you're talking about that high level so i'm not talking about the crossover that you would have right because if i took my igp dog that had learned to do footstep to footstep tracking and i put it on hard surface and did certain things to help that dog that dog is going to be better than a dog that didn't have igp track but with igp the way it is today with the precision that we need that comes through obedience to the track you must have obedience to that track and you must do it exactly how we want them to do it right right yeah to the point that you can really take away that the actual tracking out of the work um correct but but that's a to me that's a training problem that's not necessarily all igp tracking dog that's all i was trying to say no no i would agree with you there that's not all igp tracking dogs but i think that that is the fundamental basis of an igp track to score high at these events is that the better you can call it obedience you can call it training you can call it whatever it is that you want to call it but the better that you are at that the better that dog is going to be right to get from point a to the end of that track right and and so so what i was trying to say is like when the track gets difficult now you need the dog to to know that they can open up and use more of their senses and do whatever they need to do to make it happen and some dogs that are trained for those high points but totally by by discipline they don't have that courage to actually open up and do other kind of tracking so to me that's a more of a just just a a way of training just like anything else probably um but yeah that will be interesting for everybody to chip in when when this is done but here would be what i would argue with that is if i am going to an event that requires my dog to think on its own and to do things on its own that's a different kind of event than an igp3 track now if you're going to an fh championship and your dog has to do numerous tracks over different types of variable surfaces that may come into play but that's not the way i would train my dog for an igp track the way i would train my dog for an igp track would be if it gets difficult these are the tools i'm giving you to use if it gets hard these are the tools i'm giving you to use and i'm going to give you how to use them and then that's then up to the dog and the trainer to make sure that that dog knows that and is able to do that in turn

my dog is not out there on an igp track saying let me use my own devices here that is not that's i mean you might train differently somebody else might but the way i look at tracking is that how that's how i look at tracking is you are going to follow my instructions on an igp track this is not the time for you to do a lot of researching and figure this out on your own because occasionally i can't even say that really maybe a long time ago i might have hit a track that would require that but normally speaking in igp the tracks are such that that an obedience trained dog can do it but if you're talking about going to the other steps that's that's been a different thing yeah i think i think we're really just talking about it i mean it might be that the style of tracking the style of igp tracking that you're talking about is uh more popular because it's and this is why typically the tracking grounds are fairly easy that they kind of entice that type of tracking so you can make the 96 and 700 points but but where it gets really beautiful when everybody starts to freak out is when the tracking gets complicated and the person doesn't see the footsteps there was pretty good rain there was you know the grass is not that friendly um or the grounds is frozen and and so on i mean you've been you've tracked a lot so um and and and and for these dogs um that they're they're definitely igp dogs that are trained to understand their task and find the way to make it happen and not uh fell apart because they're afraid to step out of the boundaries that they have by the trainer right right but those i guess where i would disagree is that training obedience does not mean you can't step out of boundaries training obedience means what do you do when you step out of those boundaries training obedience means when my dog encounters that where it's very very difficult right what are the tools that you have dog here that can get you back on track and give you those points that i need it's a very interesting conversation we got ourselves into i think it also very important to to to not neglect and actually really take under super serious consideration the genetic desire of the some dogs how they use their nose to track um like my young dog right now he's two years old he is not like you know how i talk about tracking like i i see them as two types of dogs the one are on the track and the other ones are in the track with like their whole being is inside the truck and this is not done by this cannot at least i don't think i can do that through training and and um so

like with my two-year-old dog he has very limited tracking experience like he probably has let's say 100 tracks which is ridiculous for two-year-old dog and it's just because i haven't had time and because he's such a natural to track to where um i i literally can kind of push him off the track and he's just like you can't push me off the track and and the whole body language of what the brain is doing is just amazing to watch and and yeah anyway i think um um training can go that far just like with protection some dogs will say i'm done i'm good i cannot go on further um with tracking is the same but with the easy tracking we can force them to well you have no choice you have to track but um um and you can do it intelligently enough to where eventually you allow the dog and you you build confidence and the dog really truly enjoys it again but but it's not a natural tracking dog just like not every dog can uh um again do protection it just doesn't have the courage not every dog they all use their noses but there is dogs that it's kind of like uh what comes to mind and i i know i'm gonna butcher that one but uh uh there was a mike tyson's the boxer uh his coach he said at one point something very cool about how mike tyson basically he he had everything he just needed a direction and a and a guidance you know he didn't like it wasn't that he he could take any credit for who mike tyson was and i think with the training is similar like that but yeah it's interesting interesting take on on that that's i think what is also very cool about dog sports because we all have a little different takes on things and how we see it i think we've all no i mean i think we all know what you're talking about with you see the dogs that really are in the track all the way that's what they love to do but i don't i don't see a huge correlation between tracking dogs per se and hunt drive i've seen great tracking dogs that have very little hunt drive i don't know if i could say the other way around yet but i've seen really great tracking dogs that have a little hunt drive they're two different things right i mean again that's the it's the the example you know with the curung and german shepherd gets its rating just because it has to get its rating it doesn't mean that it stays on the sleeve that actually has anything to do with protection drive and confidence and dominant behavior and so on and so on right they are just made to show a picture that is satisfactory to move on from there on and there is that kind of

tracking and that type of dog of tracking um so when you have a like when you how how many judges is a one judge for this as well or or or do you have multiple churches for this for the detection it's one judge one judge for a trial and what would be the disqualifications uh time limit what about the 40 by 40 is a fence if the dog gets out does this matter or how if the judge well the the dog excuse me not the judge the the dog can come out of that area as long as when the handler calls it right back in it comes in that would be the ability to give direction to your dog so yes it can go out of the area that's not disqualifying as long as it comes back in what is disqualifying if the dog was to urinate um on the field that disqualifies them um the same thing when they're they're certain when they're going into detection if they stop them or to do something like that they would be disqualified the other thing of course that you can naturally you can fail if you go onto the field and you don't find your articles you're not going to pass what about the the overall demeanor of the dog like suppression stress how how does that play it can it play strong enough role to where a dog can get dequeued because of uh extreme discomfort yes yeah so again a judge is looking at the and and you can read the whole you know the whole scorebook but a judge is looking at the drive that the dog has out there its endurance level laws out there its intensity in the search its concentration in the area um a dog that doesn't have those things in an article search is not going to find the article the two articles in six minutes anyway but you're you're being scored on that as well or your dog is being scored on that so the more intense the dog is the more quickly it goes to odor um and to source that's going to be the dog that is scoring the highest right and in detection it's similar and and that kind of tells me that um you know the tail being up and aroused or low or the mouth is open or not these are irrelevant factors correct that's irrelevant for that kind of work yes but you're looking for intensity correct yeah right looking for overall intensity the tail doesn't have to be up and be wagging while it's out there working no which is something that the igp they got themselves in a pickle with what what is stress and what is actually what is stress putting on yourself trying to do the best you can uh you know just like two they have two chess players you know one one's gonna pace around and the other one is just

staring at the board not not even blinking and they're both in the same mindset they just have to do different things to be in that mindset and and so igp became a little bit it's a little bit of a problem we in all three phases with trying to almost guess how the dog feels instead of by by the tail and the ears and uh you know and and and almost overlooking how the dog actually works and and the ethics of the work you you have to i think distinguish what is the task what is the goal here so let's do the obedience because i'm i i shouldn't say that i i like old dog training but obedience is a part of training that is very interesting for me always how is um how are the three levels compared to to igp right now how are they they i'm assuming they're more probably that would be the most similar to igp routines or no it's going to be the most similar there's differences um so at the at the one level we for instance right now we don't have a jump we are going to be putting a jump back into the one level and our reasoning in the beginning was to get dogs again that were going in this and if they felt they were coming over not ready to jump but ready to do everything else that they would be able to do that but the jump is going back in at the one level at the next year one year from now so that there'll be a jump again um but with that in mind we're also putting more emphasis on things like the sit out of motion because you know in igp the sit has gone to five points yeah we're still at so it's 15 right now it's a one level it'll go to 10. so again we we have more points in that core exercise instead of looking at everything that's around it and making it just worth five points it's a 10 point exercise there um we have an honor down in the bt and in the one when we get to the two and three there is no more honor down so basically you're coming out onto the field at the two level and the three level on your own without another player yeah it makes sense i mean at some point it's like yeah um yeah and and i love the the reversal of that points of the sit out of motion i i personally i mean obviously you you believe in it as well since you've reversed in it it's uh for sure one of the very interesting exercises because um like i had that conversation with um harry archon uh who is uh in the utility commission and so fci church and so on and i was trying to find out how how it even came about to to take those points out and they were looking for points i'm guessing to put more points in the healing part but taking them from the sit out of motion i think it was a big mistake because

how a dog unsnaps from healing and how it can or cannot even at all complete the sit out of motion it shows where the dog mind is and how quickly can switch which is unbelievably important for obedience and it cannot compare to a down or a or or a stand because it's asking very different behavior that's nobody even i don't think anybody when they came up with that sit out of motion anybody understood how intelligent that it's a serious problem that needs to be taken care of and if you think back to a number of years ago before they put it to five points um that was the determining factor yeah a lot of big trials that was the exercise that separated the winner from the next person in line was that sit out of motion and so what did they do along the same lines that they're doing other things they've taken the points away from that and put it somewhere else and you have still the the dumbbells are similar like the one two three or or something else you're using for a trip no the the dumbbells are similar we put more emphasis once once you get to jumping right not the retrieve on flat but now you're the retrieve over the high jump retrieve over the wall we have more emphasis in the actual jump so it's not just the retrieve but it's the jump there there's a jump for a reason correct and so today you're seeing so many dogs stutter step that jump they can't jump they hit the jump yeah there's a reason for that as we spoke about the last podcast german shepherd dogs backs at least are trashed right there is a big problem with them so we're not going i believe i could be mistaken but i believe igp will either lower the jump or there'll be something soft on top soon because that's the next thing that's going to go right so we believe very strongly that a dog has to jump the technique that the dog uses the way he jumps is judged so if he is not flying over that jump and he's stutter stepping to go one way and stutter stepping the other way and hitting it with his legs drooping down he's going to be pointed yeah she's going to be pointed so we have more points than that same thing on the scaling wall we want to see power over the scaling wall coming down grabbing that dumbbell turning power back over the wall much more than if the dog is sitting a little crooked in front door those are not big things that we're going to be looking at right we're going to be looking at the core exercise rather than all of the things that surround the core exercises yes because because you can like i mean it's a super good point like right now you can have a

dog that has a beautiful basic position stable on the command the retrieve is great the front everything is great but touches both ways the jump and it's not touching it's it's struggling with the jump and a dog that has a a little bit crooked front a little bit chewing on the dumbbell can actually lose more points today than the dog that cannot jump and and this is that leads to a huge problem of of what are we breeding where are we going with this that's i think this is why uh uh marinoas as long as we have the ring sports as long as they need to jump this 120 and 4.5 and 2 meters 30 wall as long as this stays in the program it's impossible to change a structure the way a marina look they they cannot look any different if they have to make those jumps so i love how i mean i i so far really like uh all the the the little things that you are paying attention to that are important that somehow i mean those are a lot of the reasons why probably american should soon comes in place we haven't even gotten to protection yet what about the healing how how is the healing compared to to the igp right now any any different as far as the criteria the basic criteria is still the same but i think again we're looking at what are we judging we want to have a dog that is intense in its healing we want to have a dog that is in harmony with its partner um those are the things that are looked at what kind of picture are they presenting together in in healing um you know it's kind of the same thing that we just talked about with a little crooked front or a crooked finish or in an exercise that is supposed to be a retrieve that we're looking at or a jump that we're looking at or a send out that we're looking at then those are the core exercises that we should be looking at and then everything else kind of surrounds that and certainly plays a part in it but in healing i think that's the the one time that you are looking really for the harmony between the handler and the dog and it doesn't have to be a certain style of healing we're not looking for style points i like it yeah this is a this is another big issue with with igp there is always the the flavor of the day it's like all of a sudden everybody it's like oh this is the coolest thing and you you almost forget what actually is required for you to show and and people end up training something that should be irrelevant becomes all relevant yes and you i'm assuming you still have the gunshots of course right what about the like the bh does that do you have something like the prerequisite towards the or or no

yes so our bt is quite involved um we really put a lot of emphasis in our bt first i mean there's the obedience portion of the bt which is the healing the sit out of motion the down out of motion um the recall and the gunshot that that's there that's about the same but there's a whole environmental test that's done before so you you brought back the gunshot already back to it yes it's important very good and then in addition to that we have an environmental test that's set up and so we give a general framework for the environmental test what has to be tested right but then we allow the clubs some autonomy and designing their course for that and then the judge kind of checks that out when the judge comes in but we test a number of things so one thing that's tested is putting slippery surfaces so we put the dog on some kind of slippery surface we see how the dog goes across it and the judge is not only to look at just the dog going across it but how does the dog go across it and the dog doesn't get to just go across it once because sometimes if you just bring a dog across something once they're like they don't even notice no they have to go across it several times and the judge is going to watch how that dog proceeds across that slippery surface we're going to have um what are the actual calls the movement in tight spaces so again we're going to devise an area that is very very tight for the dog this last trial of ours we actually put um open screening like wire fences that you could see through but very very low so the dog had to crawl through it and then at the end it was closed off so the dog had to turn around and crawl back out so in the past we've done dark spaces that were you know that the dog had to go into this time we said okay we're not going to do dark but we're going to do so low that the dog's got to you as a handler can go to the other end you can call your dog but the dog got to be able to go into that climb through it turn around and come back out and for the um again another footing one that we did this time was we had um we bought stairs from home depot and we put them into a rubble pile so the dog had to climb these stairs and then jump into the rubble pile and then come out and climb back down the stairs so that was another test that we used and then we have a hunt ride test so we've done it a number of different ways in our own club we've had it where we've hidden up we've shown the dog a toy we've hidden it up in an area we've turned the dog around given it 30 seconds turn

the dog back around and let it go hunt into that area we've done it where the last couple of times where we've actually put it over a hill so the dog sees the person that's holding the object go up the hill and place the object then the dog is brought into a blind the person picks up the the object that was put out there puts it in their pocket and leaves then the handler and dog comes out and they send the dog and we time it two to three minutes depending on we did three we thought it was too long so after that we did two minutes and the dog has to hunt the highest score will be awarded to the dog that intensely hunts for those two minutes now they're not going to find anything so at the end we call the person with the ball back out and they throw it up there um but we're timing it we're looking at the intensity of the dog is the dog staying on task does the dog come back out and have to be sent back up does the dog come out and leave does the dog come out and just sit there and look at the handler yeah so i'm curious like i you saw me smiling a few times as you were describing this because you took me way back like in my early training days when i was still in bulgaria under the communism and and the kind of at the time very hardcore russian military style of training and you know those were things that were very important and somehow they they got lost over time everywhere and i'm curious how how did you where did you grab these pieces from how did all how did you guys put that together because it's a that's already very selective like you you already from there on you know that certain dogs will not cut it how how did you come up with it well we we we narrowed it down we had for we looked at things that we wanted dogs to exhibit if we were looking for our own dogs that were one year old or what what we want them to have two years old without being influenced by training and then we started looking at tests all around that are given all around the world for police and military what are they testing for what are they looking at what do they want and so we started to narrow it down until we came up with these um and then we said okay because we started out too big so we we now have our sixth category that we test for and we devise the test around those six categories um the last of which is suspicion and recovery so again clubs can devise it the way they want to devise it but we want to test the dog's suspicion level and then more importantly we want to test its ability to recover from that suspicion it's brilliant it's brilliant and then what happens ultimately because of that

if i am in the search and rescue type of training or police canine or military and i am to choose dog selected from different sport programs you got my attention like you definitely got my attention like i i would for sure pay way more attention of the dogs that have gone through american shoots when when it comes down to the the you know not not gambling as much and having a better chance to select the right puppy that's gonna go into search and rescue or police or military specifically because of selection um that doesn't in in igp you can have a champion and it's not a dog to be bred it's a it's a sad story but it's a true story and so to fail the bt what would be like the big no's so you're never going to fail the environmental portions we have a we have a scorebook okay and in that scorebook those environmental tests are rated so there's it's it's like there's three categories for that there's you know your sufficient category you're a middle of the road category and your excellent category so your dog is going to be in one of those categories and it's going to be recorded in your book and then the judge also has the room to write something down if they choose to write something down so now if you're a breeder and let's say you want to breed but but your dog needs more hunt drive let's just say that then you could call on this book you could actually get a copy of the book and and that particular page and look at what that dog received for hunt drive was it in fact the highest rating because maybe that's what you're looking for so it's again it's a breed test so we're adding that into our breed test those categories so that breeders can look back at it but that's not going to fail you you can still go on so you go on you do your as long as you have your obedience you can go on to an as-1 but all of these things are are recorded and anybody can look at your book your scorebook and know what you scored on the environmental tests the other one is um is the movement excuse me is standing on unstable surfaces so we always have an unstable surface of some sort and the dog has to jump up again the judge is watching does do they jump up and off do they actually jump up and stay there can you move it another test those are the six areas but even if you even if you did terrible on those you could still go on and do your obedience face even if if the dog shuts down on the gunshot or or it no that it refuses it refuses to so the two things that the dog would be dismissed and not not be able to go on gunshots they have to be able to do

the gunshots and dog aggression we do a separate dog aggression test and if the dog was deemed to be severely dog aggressive they would not be able to go on that would be for life okay so those two things eliminate you the others are all recorded yeah yeah they don't eliminate you from going on to your obedience clearly if your dog can't do those things and failed each one of those things or had the lowest score you'd probably never title anyway you're not going to type yeah very true very true yeah that's actually yeah very true then then that that should give you enough indication to that you're not going to have a surprise when you go to level one eventually right very cool and and as far as the points are they still from zero to hundred or and the ratings are they similar somewhat to to how rated or rated in igp or do you still have like satisfactory and good and very good similar yeah very cool let's let's break down the protection i'm sure everybody wants to hear that it's all about the protection for most people um so with protection again as i stated before we believe that schutzen is a test that is not a viable test if you don't stress your dog um there has to be stressors the dog has to overcome it the dog has to be able to rise to the occasion so in the schutzen one level for protection we start with two blinds in the blind search not one but two the dog has to come around the guard the the blind and guard here are things that we don't accept that we've seen accepted in other areas so if the dog were to come around the blind and circle the blind and circle the blind and run back to the handler the handler could send them again but if that dog were to come back again and then run into the crowd and then still not go into guard the dog would be done okay now if it's a young dog and there's a crowd of people around and it runs to the crowd first and turns and sees the helper and goes in and guards that's fine but if the dog cannot go to a blind at all or takes so much to get it there the dog is finished once you're there and your dog is guarding and we're looking at the same things that igp should be looking at i should say at least okay we want strong guarding we want to see drive changes we want to see the strength of the animal in the guarding phase the handler has three choices to take their dog out they can do what we used to do years ago which is walk in grab their dog by the collar pull their dog out the helper leaves the blind and they can go back into the blind with their dog

they can choose door number two which is go up sit your dog heal your dog out ask the helper to remove themselves or you can do a call out you can choose which way you want to leave the blind and that's just for the lower level or it can it's valid no that's just for the shizun one okay okay just one you can go out any way you want okay okay it's almost crazy in my head like it's been so like suppressed that even when we say that's shizun one and and it's hard for me to even think that we're talking about present time i'm like taken back like 20 years or 30 years ago you know like it's so cool to hear the even the the words again so we kind of went back to that um then we added in a whole nother level though of obedience from there so once the dog i don't care if you pull the dog back in once the helper has been called out of the blind he's behind that first blind and the judge directs him to a blind and you will know as the handler beforehand where you're heading because there are cones set up there's a line set up you will know exactly what your job is you come out of the blind and now you're healing so now once you've left the blind you can't touch your dog anymore you can have a leash on or leash off you choose you're going to heal you heal towards the central line you make your turn on the central line somewhere wherever the judge has directed it to be and you heal down the field until you see the cones at the point of the cones you turn and you stop if you have a leash on you take it off if you don't have a leash on you just stop and then the judge is going to direct you to start to heal again until you're about 30 feet from the blind at which point the judge will call the helper out of the blind for the attack the helper will attack the attack out of the blind is back on the handler and he's coming so it's not a sideways attack it's a head-on attack and the dog has to commit to that attack bite be driven out guard and then heal down the field for a real long bite do you have that also in the higher level or that's level one only how it used to be that's level one okay that's that's level one so at that point at level one the help i mean so far you're really bringing all the points all the elements that got removed for whatever reason that definitely changed what the program was i agree i like that and on the the long bite the courage test you have the the decoy run away and then turn and come at the dog or or how one no no no the helper's going to go to the central line of the

field and be coming directly towards the dog and handler but it is a long bite it is not a short bite right it's a long bite so the dog will have to grip guard show a transition stage for the highest points um and do a side transport to the judge there that is the one the two do we have any tickets already or no oh yeah there's tickets okay there's two hits tickets after the attack out of the blind so you already could pronounce courage and and so on to where where igp is going and i know many people will hate me for saying this but but we have reached a point now that we probably should not talking about courage pronounced or or or not pronounced because we are not really in igp we're starting to not be able to evaluate it this is a wild guess at some point we do have courage hardness and fighting instinct we have chf um we have a rating so the dog will be rated in that and that will be in your scorebook and so level two gets level two is very similar to level two and igp um the biggest difference that i can tell you is that on an escape bite the helper is not allowed to hang its sleeve out the sleeve out to the side for a bite so the helper is to have that sleeve tucked and be moving it forward and back as it takes as he takes off running so it's not going to be hang the sleeve out to the side giving the dog a target to bite um that's a difference the the back transport is going to be a real back transport bite so the dog will be following the helper must pivot and turn and come directly at the dog they are not allowed to turn sidestep go to the side stand still they need to turn and be moving directly at the dog that would be the i think the two biggest differences with igp2 and as2 the rest remains pretty much the same okay and then for the three level you have a call off and you have a long bite so you're going to have a coin flip before protection starts and that will determine whether you have your call off first or your long bite first but there will be back to back they will be back to back so what will happen is um the blind search occurs the dog runs the blinds comes in and guards the last blind again we really try to emphasize guarding i mean that's another thing that i've seen deteriorate tremendously right we don't see drive changes anymore um um we if we see silent guards the dog is looking all around even in active guards the dog is often looking around um so we really put a lot of emphasis on the guardian face so the dog has to come in and guard the call off occurs you come out you do your escape bite same deal the the helper is not allowed

to hang the sleeve off to the side for the for a target for the dog um the next part is the same where there's a there's the bite there's an out there's a re-attack there's a drive and now there's the back transport again the same as at the back transport yeah the helper must turn and attack the dog now once you're going down the field the helper goes into blind four so you're at the end of the field and you're getting ready for your either long bite or your call off right so let's say you have the long bite first so the helper is going to come out of line four to the center line threaten your dog turn and run down the field there'll be a stake down at the end of the field you will see it when that helper reaches that stake they will start to turn it is your responsibility as a handler to send your dog before that helper has made a complete turn and is heading towards you so you're sending your dog while the helper's back is still at you just starting to pivot yeah yeah yeah so you're sending that dog while that helper is running now for helper for those that listen that are not familiar with the old shoot one program that that used to be how it was done really it was how it was done so now the helper has turned and is coming at your dog and again the helper is to threaten your dog so just before the bite the helper raises his stick threatens the dog and then presents the sleeve and the bite so there is a direct threat there to the dog the dog bites same thing drive hits um out the dog's guarding re-attack drive hits out guarding the re-attack occurs now the handler has to come all the way down the field pick up their dog present to the judge turn around and heal all the way back i'm sorry not present to the judge yes pick up the dog go to the judge i'm sorry and then head all the way back down the field again because they've got to set up again yeah so now they're going to come back down the field set up again and we're going to have a redo so now the helper goes back into the blind comes back out again threatens goes down the field the handler has to send their dog again while the the helper's running away and then the judge will signal when you do the callback which will be at about blind three depending on the size of the field right so once that dog hits blind three your the judge's hand will go up and you will have to call your dog back if your dog goes down the field and bites you're done if the dog goes down the field and doesn't bite and comes back even though it didn't done meaning the

exercise fails or the whole protection routine fails the whole protection routine okay okay so that would be different than the ring sports but if your dog stops doesn't engage comes back you're going to pass you're just going to lose points let's say you call your dog and it doesn't come directly back okay you're going to lose a little points if your dog comes but doesn't come to heel that's all pointed exercise right sure the judge is looking at that and pointing it but your dog cannot bite um at the end of the field and do you have uh on the escape like in again like i just going back and forth from ring sports comparing because uh it's a it's actually not complicated exercise when when you it's really not i know people that are listening to us are freaking out that it becomes very complicated but it's actually uh um you know it when the dog has clarity and the training is right they actually i feel that in some ways like that gambling of like oh last moment and it's not but do you have the anything to do with the point deductions or or max points as far as how close or how far you call the dog off you have to call the dog off just i say at line three so the judge is going to be standing just before blind three across the field and that's going to be your call-off point so would you say about 30 20 feet or so or or or closer than that i'm bad at distance i'm going to say flying distance so 30 feet okay okay because you know you're not you by 30 feet or so okay and now the helper is already coming back up the field okay i think that's the difference with ring sport and sleeve sport is that with the way that we do it and the way that the helper is coming back there's by the time that dog is traveling down the field there's not a lot of distance between the dog and the helper when they when this all happens and the helper just has a sleeve on yeah well yeah there is some safety set it up to be safe yeah yet a big test so as you said if if you haven't done this so many people think oh it's going to be so difficult and it it is difficult if you have a schutzen three dog an igp three dog that has never been called back and it's seven years old and it's for seven years gone down the field yeah she's gonna make me try with my old dog now i actually will try it but other than that it isn't and you can use a whistle i mean we've built that in you can use your whistle for your callback if you want instead of just the name of the dog so you can you can do that that that even makes it simpler easier yeah so i i i know i know people are watching this and thinking exactly what you're saying

right this is crazy but our way of thinking about it was the same in today's society the reality is if you send your dog you need to be able to call that dog back so that's what we're going on that's what we've devised as a test for this we're trying to make it more difficult raise the training and raise the breed standards for our dogs and trying to roll that into one that's our goal yeah i mean you're really gonna have like uh you you will get attention of the the the the communities as i said including the search and rescue and uh police canines and military uh that they will have now much more interest to work together and follow what's going on because it it really is gonna help them uh uh it it can work both ways including not just not even just the um the genetic pool and the soundness and the temperament selection but also training the the training exchange between like we're going back to being able to train together what about the the old school uh search of the helper after the call out of the blind do do you have that or no we haven't added that in yet that may come oh yeah but we have not added that in yet i think that was also another like i i remember at the time the just justification they had was it just saves time which you you can have a good argument for that but having a dog on a down staying a little bit longer while you're doing something else you're seeing you're seeing how that dog is handling that position knowingly that something's coming up there is a lot to tell there you know there is a whole story you can have there yes and at the time when your dog is laying there and your back is to your dog while you're walking away to do that you're not making contact you're not holding your dog with that body language yeah that dog has to have self-control i i will encourage you i will definitely encourage you to bring that back into it's it would be like thinking me going just going to you know any kind of police uh convention or or workshop or anything there is three big problems out of course is number one call off is number two that's why a lot of departments don't don't bother unless they have to go through some certification and includes it but even then it's just for the certification and any time they decide to pat down a decoy the dog just blows up and goes on his own these are three very classic uh uh problems for for training so i i definitely would be nice to see that back as well we will take that under advisement because we've been talking about it yeah like it really like i i when i go

back and watching some old vhs tapes and and you see them it's like they they yeah i'm on a down and i'm looking at the fly or i'm at the down and i'm whining i just cannot contain myself or i flat out just break because it's my opportunity and and you you see the dog and you also see the training and now yes it does take time but it should it's a it's a very good exercise as well and as far as the the stick is it uh like the normal palace stick i'm assuming right it is okay good and yeah it is we have talked back and forth about reed sticks but we've stuck with the padded stick yeah i i really think it's um um it it's sufficient to test to twitch a dog enough to where uh you definitely uh have a test going um um that's very very cool and what about now more of the world global problems electric collars prong collars yes how how is american shoes going handling that what is the the position and what is allowed what is not allowed we are allowed to use electric collars we are allowed to use prong collars um and so you can really do how it used to be to where there is a trial day and you can come out of the car with the electric collar then put it off and then go on the field correct yes but every club trial has to have an entrance to their field so it has to be roped off so there there's like a gate an imaginary gate that you're going through and you can have whatever you want on one side of the gate but as you cross over into the the actual field everything has to be off yes very good what is your kind of stepping off of the the american short school for a moment but since i touched the electric collar and the the global movements against how where do you stand and how well if you what do you have to say about any of that well i think that's just another sign let's take a general picture of everything being watered down right you can't use an electric collar you can't use a prong collar you can't use anything um that would stress a dog derogatory towards a dog at all so people first of all there's so many parts of that right there's a part of that that people are still in training from 35 years ago when they were using electric collars or that's not the way these things are used today for the most of us that's not everyone of course there's always your exception to the rule but the majority of us are not using collars in that matter we're not using prong collars in that manner that has changed so much over the years right we're so much better than what we were um so the collars and the training tools

that you're using are used in a very different way that's number one number two when you take tools away from someone that are trying to train a dog you leave them with barbaric ways to do this because if we have dogs on one hand that we want to stress right that we want to have stick hits that we want to have hardness courage fighting instinct that lasts throughout the years if we want to promote those kinds of things then we do not have dogs that can be trained purely positively now if we take all of those things away i think we touched on this and we create dogs that can't stand up to any of this anymore well then we certainly then we can go all purely positive on everything but we no longer have those same animals we have a different animal that we have created over the years we in american schutzen are trying not to have that happen we are trying to have those animals continue throughout the years the reason we got into the sport the things we love about the sport are the dogs and it's those dogs when everything else is said and done that we believe have to be sustained so i think that's there's there's just so many facets to that right certainly if we change the dogs we will change the tools and if we change the tools then those people that are in the purely positive camps can say see it could all be done with purely positive training right right and we don't want dogs that can be done with purely positive training and that's what you're not understanding and even even if you can maybe these are certain dogs and certain trainer and also the like i'll go back to what you said because it's important um what like when when somebody that has moved away from using aversive and says well i used to be one of these trainers 30 years ago or i learned 30 years ago it's like it's exactly the point it's 30 years ago this is a very long time we what we do today and what was happening 30 years ago is dramatically different and and if anything speeds up the process and brings clarity and when i say speeds up the process i know now the force free will be oh that's a quick fix it's like of course it's a quick fix but how can you not like a quick fix that actually is permanent it's not like a quick fix oh we got something done right now but then it breaks down no it does not break down it it works it it works the message and and and and there is so much clarity there that it helps everything to move on we like we are eliminating a big part of frustration from both the handler and the dog

to where you you you know like uh you you end up with positive trainers that are grabbing their colors and just face to face screaming to dead and you end up with the other people and you know that you're not going to be able to do it and you know right for for endless timeouts right process takes forever forever and then you have like even right now in uk and not sure if you know but they they're they actually passed everything so from the beginning of the year they they will it will be banned with the exception of the military so positive reinforcement works better but the military if they want to use they can and and that's showing you that there is a need you cannot like no matter how much you get pressed and you get pushed there is a there is time when and the same happened with the with the germany they they banned the electric collar but they are allowing prone collar in deployment which is again it's just such a ridiculous ways how to to look for some loophole how still to allow the trainers that need to have reliable training to do their job right and and ultimately to to almost everybody i have talked and i had a a very good podcast with uh marcus noise which is a uh uh igp judge and competitor and police officer and it's like i i could care less about the prone collar i i would love to have my electric collar back you know yeah yeah i mean think about this country think about the united states of america if police departments were allowed to put electric collars on their dogs right they the bite situations that we see on tv right now all the time would not be happening right they would have the ability to call their their dog back they'd have an insurance policy that their dog carried with that dog at all times they would be trained properly to begin with and they would have a means to use it if necessary but instead of doing that we go through well we all know what we go right and we see um because we refuse to look at these things and to educate and to teach the proper way to use them and the benefits of it would be like saying let's let's say we're inventing fire and we're rubbing sticks together and we get a we get we finally get fire going and now someone comes up with the match that every single time they hit that match fire lights and we say oh but that was a quick fix seriously are we going to go back to rubbing sticks right because now we have another means to create fire i mean we can look at every invention throughout time like that and again like if if there is some consistency and you can show that

there are better ways everybody will jump on those better like what are you kidding me like i like you you can do this in a better way than me and i would not ask you what are you doing right exactly but clarity with speed right and and with kindness to your dog i mean even people that come to me for help with their dog let's say they have a german shepherd or a malinois or a rottweiler or any large breed dog right and they can't take their dog off leash so they have a german shepherd that every time they go out of their home that dog has to be on a leash right that dog has no life it's a german shepherd dog it does not want to be on leash for 12 years yeah it just doesn't right if i can give them a means to very quickly teach them with an electric collar how to have their dog come back on a recall paired with treats and fun and play and very in our way of thinking slowly done so that they understand it and can use it we've just opened up the world for that dog and we've opened it up quickly to where now they have a dog they can go out and play fetch with and play with and somebody else and i've been in meetings like this where purely positive people will talk about well it's a quick fix right we're we're going to do our 110 lessons with the people keep coming back and getting their money and they never teach the dog to come back right that dog never has a life but here's a tool that we can give you and explain to you and show you how to use it properly and give your dog a life but no that's cruel yeah kind of mind-boggling it is it is and um i mean i i know you have you you you search for training any good training everywhere it's not like a narrow-minded this is the way we most of good training like you have to stay open mind that you have to pick things up from from this collective uh um training world global you know uh people everybody's spending a lot of time everybody's trying and and some we we evolve and we evolve very fast and and it will be so quickly if if somebody can show hey there is a better way but this is the better way no don't just tell me that there is a better way and don't tell me that science says and any of this kind of stuff but show it demonstrate like you know in a make a workshop line us up and show us we we are jumping on the train if if there is something no question i think this is why um like in all of my not all but a lot of my podcasts i end up talking about this unfortunately but it's such a topic that it has to be talked about we cannot let it be um um when when you have

sciences and there is better ways but you cannot demonstrate or you are not willing to demonstrate then there is a big question in the validity of what you're saying how are you like what like uh because you know like when you i know how not not all and i have to make sure that that's clear not not all positive trainers are thinking the same way there is very intelligent trainers that are just choosing to challenge themselves to train that way and hats off to that but how they they think that because we would have electric color or we would use some form of aversive we get labeled immediately like there is the the cliche they are the evidence science-based and we are the punishment-based trainers it's like what is a punishment-based trainer like you cannot possibly accomplish anything besides making a dog not do things if you're just doing punishment if you're you're a punishment-based trainer this does not exist and and that's uh um one of their main weapons it's like in in any conversation punishment-based training will be said numerous times and not not even acknowledging that the even majority of the positive reinforcement strictly positive reinforcement training comes from people that do protection sports that use aversive i cannot be more explicitly saying this that we understand very very well positive reinforcement and we utilize it i argue with many much better than the force-free community much better yes i would agree we do but we're the punishment based people it's a it's a very easy shut the door it's like no room for conversation it's sad it's very sad and this is why my next question to you have you thought of because it really the the the american shoots one would create a lot of interest like i think any collaboration will be i i like the uspca the the united shoots on police you know like any any of those organizations in the country i think they have to know about american shoots and we have to almost get back to working together how you know how back in the 90s you would have the the police also included in the big events having the program that you're creating i believe that now it's even more uh um more more more fitting more interesting for collaboration and and have you thought of uh uh or do you already have anything going on as far as like the the police and and everybody else

not yet not yet but that is that's a goal good that's where we want to head we're trying to do so much right now um with so few people that are you're at the base that are the workers there's only so many things that we can accomplish on our own we need to have more people get involved because they want to see something like this succeed yeah and we're involved not just involved in the sport field but involved you know at the core of it workers so with um um i know between our first conversation and today meanwhile you had helmut reiser come and and you guys had a some some like a judges or some some kind of a seminar and then i'm i'm very curious to hear a lot about it like i'm dying to hear how that went it was great um helma came and did a basically a seminar workshop with our judges so because we wanted to judge along that same criteria that same way he actually came he had just amazing videos tons of videos um explained the way that they judge and what they're looking at which very much aligned with us um and was like it was so nice because it's like two two groups or he he being himself but representing his group and yeah i think the way he thinks coming together with us who have a lot of the same thoughts so that was a that was fantastic um and he was able to convey how they judge what they look at which again fell in line with what we're doing and then we had the opportunity to judge numerous dogs online the judges for american schutzen were able to do that and utilize those sheets and really over a period of just a couple of days be able to all come together and and see things in a very similar way so that their judging was within a few points of each other so on that level it was excellent and then you know on a further level to talk about rsd global and the possibilities of maybe joining forces in the future was fantastic i mean our opportunities are endless to come together with another group or a number of groups that are all of the same mindset so we we're definitely looking to do that i wonder if um um yeah you know what i'm thinking it's just so so insane um like i i can train my dogs and i can put video with my dog having an electric collar on and doing everything and i don't think about it i'm just having fun my dog is having fun my dog is not like you know having those uh serious negative consequences emotional well-being and all all this nonsense you know and many not many i i would think the majority of trainers that do protection sports in europe they want to hit like they want to make a

comment but they will be hunted down if they do yes this is this is a tragedy where we are right now and so where i was going with this is like i i bet there will be interest like a lot of trainers would like to come and put their dog into the trial but the way the whole system is working in europe right now you actually even if you come to the states and you have electric collar or you perform a competition where there is tickets when you go back home it will be just as bad as if it happened at your club in germany or belgium or whatever and and and i i don't know if they will be ever able to to break that it's very interesting problem and we i think the europeans did not help themselves in many ways including but you you you would be open like i mean i don't see a problem with anybody wanting to participate to come in competitions right coming from somewhere else outside the united states no not at all last year at our nationals we had um pierre come and he competed from outside the country yeah and so hopefully this year we'll have more but you know in talking with helmet too with his rsv global we're looking at the possibilities of joining forces with as with that it would give us tremendous access to their infrastructure we would have a fantastic database enormous database that we could join we would have the ability to incorporate their breed tests and their breed programs into ours which would really expand ours we would have the ability to register our dogs a different way so there are a lot of benefits to doing that um all the while maintaining our autonomy as as so we're kind of in negotiations or talk about doing that but able being able to absolutely maintain our autonomy but that also would give us the ability if somebody were an as member to go into the rsv 2000 world championship so for the first time there would be a pathway to get there wow so that's something that we don't have in as it was something we were not really that interested in ourselves but we know a lot of people outside of the organization that were looking to come in and we're interested in that and this would give them a pathway to that organization it's like last year i think it was bit blisnik won the rsb 2000 um that of course as you were just saying that comes from the czech republic and just as you were saying before when i was there training there were people that come to vets from all over right sweden austria italy countries in which you're not allowed to use any kind of electric collar prong collar no training tools and what i

witnessed was like you just like barbaric almost training because all they have left is their hands to hold their dog up to stare in their face to throw them in a crate to to use their hands and i know in the czech republic there's a fight against all of this too they they don't want to hear about not using electric collars and and so i was very glad to see vit um enter the rsb 2000 championship and win yeah because he certainly deserves that and also because he represents what they're trying to do as well as what we're trying to do by doing that and i think the more people at that level that stand up and do those things the better off we're going to be as a community you know if we're all so afraid to say anything or do it that's what got us here that's why we're here right because we were we didn't have the gumption to stand up and do anything that's what i alluded to in the in the first segment was usa had that ability i mean usca could have done something and they did nothing you know you mean like in a global level or in the educational level educational level right they're they're a powerful organization with a big membership big number big number they could have done something they refused to do anything because they wanted to bend the knee to europe that's why dirk put it best when he put out that message saying if you are a member of that organization then you have to that's the way it is right now and they created that they allowed that to occur because with their numbers they had enough power to say no we're not going to do this they wouldn't do it they had the power before to educate people they did not take advantage of that but there is the danger for for them being expelled from the world union and and maybe sometimes that's what it needs to happen who knows but let's look at that even right let's look at that the gsdca right is part of the akc or was it whatever they were i sometimes even get confused here now with the wda too when the wda was part of that organization right so you have the arm of schutzen in the akc the akc's breed standard is different from the rest of the world union's breed standard true years true they have been told they have to change their breed standard or they will be not allowed to be a part of the wsv you know what gsdca said sorry no we're not changing it well how many years will it take don't know 10 years pass are you going to adhere to the rules of the wsv no sorry they didn't expel them because they're part of akc which is large numbers right power money numbers and money exactly right

power numbers and money and that's why we're looking at the rsv i mean rsv they can even send dogs to the fci championships they they won that battle too it's such a difficult like the dog world is is a you know there is a lot of stabbing and there is a lot of pulling the rug and which is humans you know that that's what we do tribes but somehow if if we start to at least back up and defend each other to some extent even when we don't like each other i think it's very important in today's times that we need the numbers and we need to find a way somehow and maybe that's not possible maybe that's just me my fantasies but i know that numbers are important i know even like organizations such as like the uh iacp the international association of canine professionals which is like a pet organizations but they're the first one in the states that anytime san francisco says we're going to be shock free or new york or whatever they they will step in and we we have to connect and we have to work together with such organizations and the police and the army and the search and rescue and and then we have a more unified front and and reasons like no this is this is important it's not just um it's not just a dog sport that's the whole point really it's not just a dog sport it's it's not easy it isn't but we do know a few things and one of those is what you just said numbers matter people coming together matter those things matter education matters is it an easy answer it isn't so where do we go from here where is uh what what's next coming up for american shoots home where are we headed well as far as what's on the immediate horizon we have our nationals coming in november um we have asked you if you would like to be a guest judge um yeah yeah yeah yeah and i said i i would love to do it if i mean i i have to sharpen up my skills and and really understand the the program um um but yeah there's where is it gonna be it will be in missouri okay same place as we held it last year what it takes to force for a um like a a club to become a member or how does it work i'm not sure individual membership is fine right so yes you can be an individual member and you would sign up through the psa website okay go to the psa website you would you would follow the prompts and go to the sign-up sheet for psa and then you would be a dual member of psa and as and we're looking for a way going forward to make that clearer so that we know exactly who the as clubs are and the psa clubs because right now some are both um and and as far as a club forming our american shoes home club what are the requirements

there three members you have to have three members to form a club and and you have mock trial or anything like that how the the other igp clubs do or or they're immediately accepted as a club or right now if you have three members then you are accepted as a club what you do have to do is within it's just changing now but within the first year you have to have an event yeah um and then after that so you get one year of having just an event and that can be a helper seminar um somebody coming in to talk about dogs whatever it is you choose it to be that's that centers around dogs and then the second year you'd have to have to have a trial yeah that's reasonable definitely reasonable i mean it's very interesting and then i hope we we creating interest and i don't know i think um i know some people are like well why do we need to split even further apart and divide even more but uh i don't look at it as what you're doing is we're really preserving something that is becoming extinct yeah that and we we have no intention of um like or no interest in barring people from igp we would love people from igp to come in you can do igp and you can do as um we look at as as more of a breed test for german shepherds and other working breeds but you you can do both and we welcome both what is the minimum age like what do you have like to get the to to enter the first levels what do you have age requirements or no yes there are age requirements and they've changed what is it 18 months now i think i think it's 18 months but so there's age requirements but i i think most of the time you're seeing dogs you know two two and a half before they're on the field right um but they are entering bts we've had like we just found in the books of some trials that are just bts so we've had trials that are like 20 bts so just because it's their first year they're entering they have people that are going through that first step what kind of breeds you kind of what is predominantly right now that you have as far as breeds we're seeing a lot of dobermans of course malinois german shepherds and a couple of rottweilers and there's other breeds that have gone through the bt um as well but those are the breeds that you're seeing you know actually competing in the trials what is a membership what do you have for membership uh what is the dues the dues right now are um 75 but we're thinking about restructuring that a little bit too but that's what it is right now 75 as a as a individual membership right yes again if we you know look forward and and do something with um rsd global that might restructure

itself a little bit because of the you know the availability to the enormous database we'll have i'm very glad to hear that that um there is there is conversation at least there is conversation and interest and and that's perfect beginning right that's step one i know another thing that you just mentioned that i always think about um because you were talking you know science-based science-based right and i mean that goes back to even just general training right because i get so many questions from people on like how do they go about becoming someone who can get on a regional level or a national level or or you know get their dogs farther along and i always look at it and say just that is that you know there's so much training that is science-based let's let's face it you have a portion of everything we do that's science-based but then the other half of our sport is the art of our sport and the art of our sport comes into play when you talk about things like we talked about the last time what's your preparation for an international event well the first thing you have to do as you alluded to then is you have to know your dog so this is a process that you go through when you start a dog whatever age it is and and you continue on with that dog you and that dog become a team that dog starts to understand you and what you want you start to understand that dog and what that dog needs and wants and then those two things come together and then you progress to the next step of saying okay people will ask me things like well how long do i heal this way before i change this i i don't have an answer for you for that that's the art of this sport there is the things that i can tell you that is the science of this sport and then there's the art of the sport and it's those things that are related to the art that makes you either an okay trainer a really good trainer a great trainer someone that can compete on an international level it's the art it's knowing your dog it's knowing when to push it's knowing when to pull back it's knowing how far you can push right it's knowing when to do that it's knowing what to do in a build up to a trial what not to do in a build up to a trial what are you going to do with that dog before you enter the field all of those things most of that is not based on science yeah that's the to me and i'm sure for most of us that's the the addicting part yeah right yeah that's what makes you stay in it what makes you love it it's 3 a.m and you're like waking up and it's like i need to go

and try this tomorrow morning yeah yeah exactly or why didn't that work wait let me think yeah exactly how about um um like i i've had conversations lately and and how how do you see the difference between protection sports and let's say agility or fly ball or you know how do you see the difference between protection sports and how do you see them comparing protection sports to any other dog sports that are very popular and in fact probably more popular simply because many more people with different types of dogs can participate and and so on but as far as like training and just everything how how what what what what what it is it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it it what comes to mind? I think in most protection sports, you're not just dealing with one phase. You're dealing with multiple phases. So it's not like taking, let's say, a retriever, in which the entire sport is based on obedience. Right? The dog is born. The dog is tested as to see what that dog is capable of doing. And then it is obedience that's going to make or break that dog, period, throughout the whole thing. You can look at other sports. Agility. Again, it's kind of one-faceted. That's why so many dogs can do it. Yeah, one-faceted is a very good word. Where protection sports is not one-faceted. You can have a dog that excels in obedience but cannot do the protection end of it at all. You can have a dog that goes out there, which is always amazing to me. It could have a perfect grip but has no courage, hardness, and fighting instinct. Right? You can have a dog, like I said before, that can show great tracking ability but has no hunt drive or very little. So you're taking dogs that are so multifaceted and you're trying to have everything come together on all of these different levels. So you're trying, and when you go to competition, if you're tracking, if you're doing scent detection, if you're doing article searches, whatever you're doing is that phase. You've got to have that at the top level. You've got to go to the next thing, which is the obedience phase, and you have to have that at the top level.

Now you've got to go to protection and you've got to have that at the top level. Obedience means how does a dog relate to you? How does it listen? What does the pack drive? Protection means have the courage, hardness, fighting instinct to ignore me and stand out there and fight on your own. And not to turn protection into... Work into... Go ahead. Not to turn protection into a frisbee competition but actual, you know, Drive changes. Yeah. Drive changes. We want to see drive changes in our dog, right? Right. In protection, in the protection phase. That's what we want to see. And that's what we go for. If we don't see those, you and I are not happy. Right. So I think you're looking at a dog and a handler that has to be very multifaceted. Enhance one, without breaking another. And that, yeah, I was just going to say, like, you can, you can put too many eggs in one basket or line them up in their own way to where the other phases you sacrifice. Right. And you have to make sure that that balance of everything moving forward remains. And very, very interesting. Anything else to tell the listeners? Anything kind of for how to join? How to any advice? Any ideas? Invitations? Well, basically, if anyone's looking to join and they're all confused, they can go to our liaison who is Kim Bat. You can find her online. And she will answer any of your questions. It's another thing that we've really worked very, very hard at to have somebody who can connect with you, who can talk to you, who can help you through the first steps. So we have a human being that will answer your questions and help you get started. Debbie, I think that was, we had to do that part too. That was like we really left it out in the air, like a lot had to be said and talked over and I think we accomplished that. one thing and I'm sure you're planning on it but I have to still suggest that today's age like whenever the nationalists for example to have good promotion and have streamed so people can watch and I'm sure I'm sure many trainers in Europe will be very interested to see where it's going. So hopefully you're already planning on I don't know if we work with working dog probably but definitely we have to stream these events. Yes and again if we go through if our connection with Helmet goes through and the RSV Global becomes something that's actually happening we'll have Keneva involved we're already hooked up with working dog at a level of starting to register our dogs there so these things are all starting to come together but we will have the events streamed and people so what we're trying to do right now is as I said Pierre came last year and entered our protection tournament at our nationals

this year we've upped it just a little bit you have to have an AS1 before you can enter the protection tournament but there'll be a trial available the week before for people to enter if they want to get their AS1 somewhere so that they'll be able to attain an AS1 and then enter the protection tournament if they want to do that I think that's a good place to end and I really wish you strength and energy because it's important that's what I need it's important that there is so many breaks that comes from everywhere and you just have to continue to bulldoze through and you have that experience so anybody that wants to help I'm sure you would appreciate any help so gladly and I thank you for giving us this opportunity to put that out for the interview great so we will I think we will be seeing each other soon good the sooner the better Ivan alright David take care alright you take care bye bye to to to ! The Video Video