Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 77: Lars Lentz

I still remember we were sitting with the DVD and watching where you play with True Talk, with the poppins on video, and that was a really revolution for me. So thank you very much. Yeah, these were definitely interesting times. And I also look back because my memory and remembering people and events, it's a mess. I mean, I don't remember a month ago. So imagine looking back at competitions. But, you know, as I look at Working Dog and whatever, we have competed at the same competitions in like 93, 95, like the World Championship. We've been, you know, on the field together sometime, which is how far back we go. Yeah, it's crazy. And see also how the score have changed in a good and a bad way. And also in politics and all that. But I was getting my first working line German Shepard in 1989. And then I started training that. And two years later, I became the Danish national winner of IGP-3. And with 100 points on track. But then it's, yeah, you know, you probably know it by yourself. You travel around the world and you do it as good as you can. But then suddenly you get stuck. Like you figure out. And I was so convinced about I knew everything. And then I realized, actually, I don't know anything. And I still have that today that I don't know anything. But I have tried to change and look for new solution and other ways to do it compared to the traditional way. Yes. Which actually brought me a long way. So I'm so grateful that you invited me. Thank you very much. Oh, you know, like, I mean, it was, it had to happen for many reasons. But one of the reasons is kind of selfish because I am curious myself, you know. And as I said, we've competed at the same competitions. We're going back to early 90s. This is like, I hate to think how old we are. But that's where we are. And so, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to talk with people that have been, like, we've traveled the same path. We have met here and there. And sharing views, sharing concepts, sharing, you know, this is what the sport is about. That's what we all should stay curious in that way. And that's why I'm saying I'm very selfish in a way to also have you. Because I want to talk to you on just like I want to talk to you if we take the laptop away, you know. Yeah, but you have a point there that, I mean, if we don't continue to develop, we will lose interest. Then we'll be boring, right? So, yeah, you're absolutely right about that. I really enjoy that. So, let's get going. Like, I don't necessarily have notes or agenda. I sometimes just kind of talk.

Because especially when it's a guest like you that we have so many common interests and, you know, sometimes preparation for a podcast kind of kills the momentum of a conversation, you know. Like, I always have to think about the next thing and whatever. But let's start with you clearly are an IGP trainer. And you're going as far back as it was called many different names, the sport. Exactly. Somewhere along that journey, tracking became your thing. And IGP is three-phase sport, three parts. Like, typically, when I am asked, you know, like, what is your favorite phase of the sport or which one is the more important one? And I'm always torn and I always kind of, ugh. I wish I don't ask me that question. But for you, how did the tracking thing just got so deep into? Why not obedience? Why not protection? It is almost like a coincidence. Because it was starting when I started competing. I was lucky. I was having one of the few working line German Shepherd at that time. In the beginning, there was a lot of Showline dogs. I was one of the first to get a working line dog. And that dog was better. And because the dog was better and I was training more than average people in Denmark, I get better result on track. But then I get a new dog later and I start failing on track. And for me, I think it's very simple as you can compare it as like triathlon. I mean, if I cannot swim, there's no reason to train the bicycle because I will drown. So that's why I started focusing on the track. And then I was a little bit, how should I put it, a little bit lucky. Because when I was on the deepest, failing most, I was, by coincidence, as an audience going to the world championship for German Shepherd in Sevilla, Spain. And the track condition there was really bad. Really bad. I think it was about 40% who failed. But then when we were standing there on the track field and I saw it with my own eyes, there was showing up a guy from Belgium, Philippe Clement. And he was like, I'm going to go to the ground. And he was like, I'm going to go to the ground. And he was like, and it was mind blowing. And he was so, don't misunderstand. I just got goosebumps listening to this. And he made 798 point as I recall it. And everybody else was failing. And I said, I want to do that. And people start laughing at me and that turns the fire into me. And then I have seen Helmut Reiser. He have done a lot of good stuff on track. And especially I was invited to that World Dog Masters tournament. And I was failing there. And Helmut Reiser was there and we started talking about track and I was quite depressed about my track outcome.

And he said, you know what, join me. Can we go back to you? Yes. And I did that. That's so Helmut. And that was mind blowing for me to see the way he was tracking the dog. How much pressure, don't misunderstand me, was not beating the dog. Exactly. How much pressure you could put on a dog. Let me explain to everybody that's going to freak out when you say pressure because pressure means in a lot of ways means just understanding what your job is and that you have to do it this way and you cannot just, you know, that's what we mean. We don't mean like let's just jump on the dog and. Right. You are absolutely right about that. Very often I have been stuck with that word in the United States when I've seen that when I talk about pressure, a lot of people think, OK, let me fry the dog. Yes. Kick the shit out of the dog. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what we mean. It's just guide the dog to the right situation. Right. Discipline of even discipline is man today. Words are so dangerous nowadays. You're afraid to say almost any word you say. It comes with some baggage that you're like, God, what word can I use anymore to explain myself? Right. And that's actually in the whole society. Right. Which gender you are and whatever. Don't go down that road. Oh boy. But I did. I mean, I had to do the same stuff. Like I am always very, very, I mean, you know, people ask, well, why, how do you still doing it? And you've done it? And you've done it all and whatever. And it's like, there is curiosity. And of course, I like, you know, I mean, it's what I know to do. But it's the curiosity and it's the sharing of ideas. And it's like, okay, well, coming up with something. Well, coming up with something. Who else is coming up with something? Well, let's see. You know, this is all interesting stuff. So me and Helmut also go just as far back as probably you. And I've had him at my place a few times. And one time I invited him specifically for tracking just to see what he does. Not because I need it, but that curiosity, it's what drives us. Right. And Helmut is one of those intelligent, talented people that can not just do, but explain. So, yeah, I kind of shared that with you. Yeah, he's really intelligent, no doubt about it. So you went to him. Yeah. And then I realized, whoa, there's other way to do it. And first of all, we talked a lot about trying to be a little bit more humble because I have a big issue with my ego. I am a smart ass. I'm an arrogant bastard. And so, but if you are that, it's like you don't take new knowledge. It's much more like talk to the hand. I know everything.

But I learned the lesson because you need to open your mind if you want to learn loss. And then when Helmut, he teach me about how much that is actually inside the dog you can bring out. If you are smart. I did that. And to make a long story short, after 10 months after I met Helmut the first time, I make hundreds to the Danish nationals again without a leash on the dog. And then people start questioning me, hey, what's going on there? And that forced me to think about, yes, what have changed? And that was a lot. And for me, it is also when you look at the three disciplines in IGP sport. I mean, you and me have been there so many years. Look how we have changed and we have developed in especially in obedience. Yes. Oh my God. We definitely have jumped to a different place. When I see some of the young ladies nowadays in the sport, I'm like, whoa, I will never be able to do that. They are so much ahead of me. It's scary. And when I see all that transition phase and protection work and the full grip and all that compared to what we have for 40 years ago. So, whoa, but on track, sorry to say, I think the majority of people is training exactly the same way as they did for 40 years ago. Yeah, I have to agree with you. And we are failing more and more on track. So I think it's time to wake up in some way and challenge ourselves and say, could we do it in another way? And I mean, you and me have tons of examples about what dog is able to do with the nose. And I mean, if the dog can find cancer, diabetes, coronavirus. Right. How can it be my dog is missing such a big article on an IGP-3 track? Come on. Don't blame the dog. Right. I mean, it's simple. Right. Yes. And also, I'm laughing a lot because in my country, it is like this. If I buy a puppy for IGP-3. I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm laughing, but my dog also sometimes would do something like this, you know. Me too. I'm laughing kind on myself, you know. Exactly. But I mean, if I buy a puppy and it turns out not to be as good as I expect, then I sell it to a stupid policeman. But one year later, that police dog can find everything. Yes. Yes. And I mean, and we should be the top of town and we know and we have the right breed and all that. But our dog cannot find an article like that. When I talk with people who train dogs for narcotics, they are like, what? Is that what you have to find? Yeah. Yeah. So. So, like, when did you, when did people start to look up to you and ask you questions?

Because I remember like in my, in my evolution, there was a time where I eventually I was like, man, I probably need to quit my job because that's all I need to do right now. And, and I remember exactly when that happened, but it happened kind of progressively and probably similarly, probably not. But how, how was, how did it get there for you? Well, first of all, I have to say, and you know that already, you're from Bulgaria, right? Yes. It's a completely another culture in Europe compared to United States regarding to professional dog trainers. Because I was, I didn't know that you could actually make a way of living. Yes. Training dogs. I didn't know that. I mean, even today we pay a hundred dollars for half a year training in a dog club in Denmark or Germany. Yes. That's how it is. That's right. It's a completely another culture. So when, when somebody invited me the first time and they just want to pay my flight ticket, I was like, whoa, I feel as the richest man in the world in the beginning. And then I saw, okay, but, but it's another way people are seeing it. They see it as a job. And we also have that different in culture that in Denmark, we're not allowed to talk about money. It's like a taboo. It's like a religion. Sport community, right? Yes. I remember this. I have to admit that in United States, they are much more open minded about talking about money. It's much more honest. Yeah. Whatever. Good for you. And you will never have that in Europe. And so after I make that that hundred points to the Danish national without a lease and people saw it, they say, hey, what's going on there? And then I start preaching and I am quite controversial. So in the beginning people was like, burn the witch, burn the witch. Because what I said was so much against what other people was doing. Right. And, and, and, and, and, but then I was lucky quite fast. I get some clients who really get good result and then start going on more and more people. And then of course, I have been busy using the social media. And I think that's very effective. That's very effective. Yeah. Social media today is very different than what we had to do back in, in the times before. Yes. You, you mentioned now arrogant few times. And I, I feel like I, yeah, I, I mean, you could say the same for me. I heard rumors about that. Yes. And there is a, I mean, of course it comes with good and bad, but I think it comes also with a lot of good to, to be able to, to say something and then check yourself. And it's like, well, now I have to somehow show that what I'm saying actually is real. So you're putting yourself under pressure. Exactly.

So in, in, in a lot of ways being this way, exactly. It's, it's not like, Oh, if it happens, if it doesn't happen, no, you really stepped over a line. Yeah. And now it's on you to, to actually show, right? So it's a good driving force. It's not, I would not say that it's a great quality, but there is great parts of being that kind of person because it, it forces you to also be honest with yourself when you, when you put goals and then you have to, like, you have to make it right. And you see it very often in other kinds of sport, right? Yes. I mean, McEnroe, Lance Armstrong. Yes. Some people is, they have a kind of. McGregor now next, this weekend. And yes, yes, exactly. Right. So it's like a character, but yeah. But also that, that you dare to speak up now on them. Yes, because otherwise we all stay in the same bubble and progress cannot be made unless we try to, you know, break out from, from the commonality. Not that there is something wrong. Sometimes there is nothing wrong with it, but the ability to think a little bit different and coming up with a different idea and experiment. And okay, that was a good idea, but clearly it's not working. And then moving to something that actually is, oh. You're so right about that. I mean, 90% of my ideas doesn't work at all. Right. But at least I try. But it's also the, the, the part of trying is, is, it's a very good part. You know, I think this is something with trainers that, and, and I don't know how to say it now, now that we're talking about arrogance, trying not to be, but, but you know, like when you, when you train dogs, you have to have the courage a little bit to, to step out and experiment. As long as you know how to come back, if it's not working out. I think it's very interesting part of the whole dog training. I think it's very interesting part of the whole dog training. On the other hand, you can say, if you was not allowed to do that, I would fall asleep and leave dogs. Yes. Yes. Yes. You're right. I need to push myself. So without like giving it away, because we're going to talk about like the, the book and every, like, I mean, we have so many things to talk, but how can you, like how, what is different? Like what do you bring to the table that people are getting excited? And, and, you know, it's one thing when, when somebody makes a seminar and everybody's happy, of course, but it's a very different story when there is a seminar, but then there is a follow up. And there is actually those people that have been to the seminar now have even, even deeper interest to learn more. So clearly you're offering something that it's not commonality. Yeah.

And I don't want to give away your system, but any, any hints of, of how. Yeah. But, but, but for me, I have been blessed and lucky because I'm focusing on track and track is like an open field. I mean, compared to obedience protection work. Mm-hmm. I mean, when I start changing the way I saw track, the first thing I was doing was admitting that IGP is not a longer a breeding program. It's not a selecting for breeding. Yeah. It's a, it's a sport. Yeah. And for me, sport is a matter about winning. And, and I mean, in any sport, I will try to make myself, put myself in a situation where the judge will give me as many points as possible or else why should I compete? And I mean, everybody knows that in obedience protection work, but on track, it's like, no, it's naturally. I mean, let's be honest. Everything we are doing in obedience is cheating the dog, right? Yes. We are setting the dog up for believe something, and then we don't do it for the trial. And we hope the dog still believe that will happen. But, but on track, it's like, no, no, it has to be naturally. And not for me. I have to be very honest about that. I don't care about my dog is tracking or not tracking if I get 100 points. And, and, and, and that is the controversial part. But I think it's funny because people, they are very much aware of that in, let's say in protection work. I mean, IGP three, you send your dog to the first blind. How many dogs think there is a help and blind number one or, or a balloon or a, yeah. Whatever. Yeah. I don't know exactly. How many dog is running to the send out because of the robot system after the double of your reward down there instead of understand the command. So we're very honest about it in obedience and protection work. But I just take the same game or whatever you call it and put it on the track. Yes. And to do that first step is go to some competition and listen carefully. What is it the judge wants to see? And then go home in my laboratory and trying to copy what he wants to see and then come back and show it. But that brings me also to that issue that, uh, I think we have some problem around track. When you talk about judging the track. Yes. This is, this is a big part of why I, one big reason why I wanted to come over. Because nobody have gone into detail and say, what is it actually the judge wants to see? Mm-hmm. How should the dog track? Should it be in a loose lease, tightly? Should it be tailed up? Should it be down? Should it be pressure? No pressure? Uh, enthusiasm? How much, how little, uh, all that compared to how detailed and good the judges is in obedience and protection work.

You nailed it. And, and, and for me, that's because I'm so old. So I dare to be honest about it, but we have a problem in our sport, if you ask me, because, I mean, helpers nowadays, they are rock stars. True. They are, and they are very skilled. No doubt about that. They earn money. They travel first class and blah, blah, blah. But judges, we treat them very often like shit. And they are spending hours and hours and hours with the sport. And we are still not respecting them. But I think, because I would like to lift the judges, make them better and, and celebrate them and share them. But that also means, then we have to clean out some of the bad judges. Instead of, you know, one rotten apple. I see where you're going. I'm following you. So you need to have more, um, cheering up. Find a system where the judge can judge, which is equal for everybody, regarding to the rulebook. Yes. So we make it simple for the judge to be a judge. Yes. Don't make it too advanced. And I see nowadays a lot of judges, because nobody guides them, they start inventing their own rules about how to judge. Right. You and me have seen them many times. And we don't dare to say something because we're in the competition. We don't want to be unfriendly with a judge. It's much easier to be me nowadays. I'm an old idiot. I dare to say it loud. But it's not because I'm against judges. It's because I want to lift the good judges. Right. Right. Right. Right. No. But it's not just judges. Yeah. I remember when I had that podcast with Ivo and I remember one part specifically when we were talking about, I think we were talking something similar about what is considered natural or what is whatever. And should the dog go footstep to footstep? And he was saying that it's in the rules. But that's not right. Yeah, exactly. And this is, you know, just one example of how a very good judge, very passionate about the sport still can have a little of their own interpretation of what it says and what it can be. And it's a it's a difficult to be a judge. It's a difficult thing because on one side, we want them to to be comfortable to interpret what they naturally see and observe. But also what really the rule book says. Exactly. And then I never forget the rule book. I mean, for I think it's one month ago on social media, I put up that question. What is the best thing about a judge? You are only allowed to say one thing. And I mean, the only thing is for me, judge regarding to the rule book. Right. And nobody said that people was like, oh, he's friendly or he's calm or he's nice or blah, blah, blah, blah.

Instead of we could at least ask for judge regarding to the rule book. Yes. And then that's where that's the starting point for sure. Yeah. You're right. I mean, another example is for me, when I hear judges, let's say to big competition, spending long, long, long time on track giving comments. Yes. For me, I know. And depending, depending what competition, I mean, if it's a little club trial and you need to, you feel like you need to help, maybe still not the right place. Still should be done off site. It's better there. But, but to big competition. Yes. If you're a two judge system, let's say judge A give you 80, judge B give you 90, then you get the average 85. My question is which of those two judge could give the comments because none of them is right. You kill it. And I mean, this is for all. Listen to that and go home. Sg, sg, sg, sg, 85. This is for all phases. Like, like I, I will tell you just right now with the, the last FMBB. I mean, my dog, he, he really struggled cause I had to deal with my wife's female in heat with, they were in the same car that say, I mean, it was like, it was not good, but I had four. No, I had, yeah, I had four judges. I mean, it's a FMBB style in protection. So I get 92, 90, whatever, 89 and then I get 83. And I'm like, that's the, that's what I want to hear. Yeah, but you can't. Right. So, so, and, and I mean, people typical to big competition, they know what the score is about and where the minus was. And then also I have another issue and it's not, I can, it's only because I want to make the judge better. First of all, I mean, you compete with your dog. You are under pressure every week. You need to show how good you are all the time. Qualify for this, qualify for that, qualify for the same with helpers. They have to go for selection. They have to be selected all the time. But I know it's controversial, but who's selecting the judges? Mm-hmm. And where do they get the knowledge from? I know how it works. And I know we are not allowed to talk about that. But that is who knows who. I mean, I have arranged national judges for civil competition in South Africa, Brazil, Canada, where it was me who actually selected judge. Hey, I know a good judge and send that judge and then that judge owe me some point next time for a home trial. Hopefully. But we are not allowed to talk about that. I mean, if judges could be selected because they was good, that would be nice. You probably remember for many years ago there was a judge invited from Brazil in protection work for FMBB, right? Yes, I think. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and also to make them proud, the judges. I can see that.

I can see the intention behind such moves. However, the moment you think a little bit deeper, you see that it's not a good idea. No. No. Yes. Yes. And then judges, they can profile themselves. Oh, I have just the world championship. Yeah, but that was not because she was good. That was because you know the right people. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's just. We're not allowed to talk about that because then we can end up in trouble. But we need to talk about it to make the judge better. Yeah. And have better respect for them. Like the helpers. So how much, speaking of this, how much do you train to please the average judge? How much do you train to what the book says? And how much time do you put just to actually allow the dog to show natural flavor and, you know, how, how do you juggle this? That was a very, very good question. Because for me, I spent a lot of time watching competition and trying to speak with the judge after the way he was judging here. Will you do that in the future? Not because I'm against it, but I want to understand what should I prepare my dog for. Right. Do you remember that lady from the United States, Deb Sadja with the all black German German, the track where she makes 72, 74 point, I think it was in Holland to the world championship. I was contacting the judges and the team leaders and everybody to ask because that was mind blowing for me. Whoa. Is that how you will judge in the future? Right. And because I was not against it. I just want to know because is that because that judge is a fool or will that be everybody who will do that in the future? Yes. This is, man, you're touching on, on so many great, great, freaking points because this, like what you're just talking about right now. This is every, every serious competitor walking out of a big competition, walks out with exactly that question. What I need to do to get ready for the next competition. What are you going to want to see from me? So, so I know what to do, because this is a, this is probably one of the most, the biggest, biggest problems we have. You're, you just nailed something super big. Because I actually don't care about my dog have to track on three legs, as long as they will be steady. So I can go home and prepare my dog to track on three legs. I mean, because for me, it is, sorry to say a little bit more like advanced agility. Sure. But, but if we cannot do that, we have a problem. That's why they have, have that system many years in, in the German Shepherd Cup to the world championship. They have two judge system, but judge B is going to be judge A next year. Next time. So they try to make it consistent.

I view was also talking about that. Yes. Yes. He mentioned this. At least give it a chance that they can make sure that there is a certain. Continuation. There is some continuation. It's important. Yeah. Yes. Man, this, like I, you just got me like this is like such a big deal. This is one of the biggest problems, the biggest concern for, I, I, I see every competitor, like once competition is over and yes, you're exhausted and you know, whatever. But at the same time, you're like, okay, what do I need to do? Exactly. Who, what do they want to see next year? Is that, is it this or is it going to be something? Or is it going to be something? Yes. Yes. And I mean, I was a pain in the ass for all the judges around me when the new program was coming last year, because I started reading the English version. I didn't know we have so many commonalities. And then they already changed it. Yes. And I said, which one should we go for? I mean, should you start next to your dog or behind the dog? Or can you go to whatever site you want to pick up the article? Or where should the article be in the footprint or in between the footprint or those small detail? Yes. So, uh, well, I admit it's not easy to be a judge. It's not easy. Amplify a little bit instead of making it even more advanced. Yeah. It's not easy and they do it. They don't do it for the kind of money that you and I will go and do workshops. You know, it's a dev. So there is definitely appreciation. Guys, don't get us wrong when you're talking about this. But people like you and me should be the people who guide the judges a bit. To judge in that direction or that direction or what is our concern as competitors. Not because we want favorite. Only, hey, what we are concerned about is this part and that part. But very often it's not dog handlers they're listening to, right? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting stuff. What do you like the best with the, do you, are you, I know, I know it's a tough one, but if you have to pick one, would it be starting a dog to track or would it be a problem solving? No, I really like to train puppies. Studying. Yeah. And also because for me it's much easier. The world is just open and the puppy have, the brain is like a sponge. They just want knowledge. Bring it on, bring it on, bring it on. Yeah. I like problem solving. But also I like to have clients where, yeah, me too, but it's difficult. Yeah, me too, but it's difficult. Also because very often it's a client's dog. Yes.

And I spend so much time saying to them, trust the process, trust the process, because a lot of the people who have problem with the dog, they have jumped from idea to idea the whole time instead of being consistent. Yes. And that's why, give it a chance, please give it a chance. And that's, I'm struggling with that. But again, when we figure it out, oh my God, I love it. You are absolutely right about that. With the puppies, how, what is, like if you are to pick a puppy and start, what age would be a good age to start? And does it depend on the breed or do you consider the breed differences at all? Or you just say, well, that's the age that I like to start. That's when I feel they actually, it's important not to miss that window and so on. I start immediately when I bring the puppy home. So talking like eight, ten weeks, whatever. Exactly. Yeah. And that's because one of my basic rules is take the food bowl and throw it away. I don't have a food bowl. So my dog can get the, my puppy can get the food in obedience on the Arctic, on track. That's it. So I'm forced to track a bit, but of course it could be just a scent pad fighting for the food and all that. Yes. But it's a daily routine. And I do that already for the first day. So the dog learns food is not for free. Okay. That's another part. I think we have a problem. And I cannot, I cannot, I don't know. I cannot prove it, but I think general with all our dog food drive is going down. Hmm. Compared to for many years ago. I mean, if you look at big company nowadays, food company, they are giving taste guarantee. I mean, if you said that for 50 years ago, taste guarantee. And always eating everything. I see right now in Denmark, people can buy toppings to put on top of the food. So the dog likes to eat. Yes. I mean, for working dog, that should be the lowest basic I I'm asking for. That is that you want to eat your food. Right. Yeah. I haven't thought about the, the just overall the dogs are losing. No, not so. Yeah. But, but, but again, how many people do you think is picking a male in breeding because of the food drive? No, they are typical picking it because of protection work. Of course. But, but I don't care if the dog don't want to eat. Or because the, the father was that dog. Exactly. But they have never seen the dog eat. They have seen the dog make protection work. Right. And I mean, for me, it's essential that the dog wants to eat. Yes. And then if no breeders or only few breeders is paying attention to the food drive, it will leave the breed genetic. And then it's quite difficult to bring it back. Like to pasta, right? When you have squeezed it out.

Yeah. I'll tell you something even that, that's kind of along with what you're talking because it's not like, even if, even if we forget, leave the, the training side aside, a dog that doesn't like to eat. I mean, I'm not talking just choking on his food. Okay. But, but to have a good, healthy food drive, there is something that it's not quite right. I agree. 100%. Dogs should not be picky. That's typical, not the only problem. Right. Yeah. That's exactly where I was going. There is, this is a, that's a piece of the problem. There is a piece of a, of a bigger package that kind of just tells you something. Right. And I mean, sorry to say, when I'm traveling in Peru or Brazil or South Africa, the loose street dogs, they have, they have no problem with the food drive. Yes. I mean, we have to go away from the track field when we are tracking and training. Yes. Oh, they will take everything. Yeah. And we are like, oh, look at my, uh, delicious fancy working line dog. I know it's five generations. Yeah. But it don't want to. You know, when I posted that video of my dog free tracking and you, you commented, this is a little bit where I took the idea because in Bulgaria, we have a lot of stray dogs, you know, even, even today. And you go to the tracking field and you go a few times to the same tracking field. And of course the dogs start to know what's up. And, and, and what is crazy is that I would lay the track. I would kind of keep them away for certain time. And they're, they're good. They know, you know, they're not stupid. They stay away. I do go and do the track. And then I get away and then they come and they do better than the dog that I'm trying to teach. Exactly. And so does the crows and the ravens. The crows is better than my dog. Oh, man. So with the, what about the breeds with the puppies? Any, any particular breed that you, that has true talent and the one that is not so talented in tracking just as a. No, I don't think about the ability to use the nose, but it's more like the dog's ability to collaborate with you for a certain job. Right. I mean, a good example is for me, Malinor. It's like, and I don't know about Malinor, but when I train track with them, it's like this small gap where I guide the dog to do something. And if the Malinor don't want to do it, it's very fast. A fine line between I run away or I bite you. But we are a German shepherd. Okay. Then I do it. Right. Yeah. I know. The drive on the Malinor is much higher, which I also like. And then sorry to say, I think as long as we talk about track, Doberman is highly underrated. Hmm. Quite good. Okay.

Or maybe I have been blessed to help some of the best one. But I mean, they just have the world championship for two months ago. Yes. I paid attention. Yes. Those two ladies from Sweden. Yeah. Actually, in fact. As they are, Camilla Rönkreis, the judge. Part of the reason for our conversation right now, it's also Camilla. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She's helping her own. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, those dogs, they track pretty good. I just haven't, like we, I don't know, like in the States, we just like it's becoming so rare to see them. Even in the low levels, which is so unfortunate. Like I, this is one of the parts that I, I wish that people that like a certain breed don't give up on the breed. And it's like, okay, I'm just going to get a Malinois. It's like, no, you, you do have something there. Find a dog who fits to you. Yes. They're still there. But it's a nice, it's an interesting subject to talk about because, let's say we talk about joining the FH World Championship. There are many dogs who track much, much better than our working line dogs. Yes. But I think the problem is, then you are in a lack of obedience. I mean, I could take a bloodhound and see that to track like a million, but teach it to indicate an article. Good luck. Yes. Because it will say, hey, I'm doing what I love most. Why should I break that with a stupid obedience exercise and lay down? Mind your own business, daddy. And then I correct the dog and then the dog give up. I mean, a lot of those dogs who have a great nose, they, you cannot put the obedience into them, which we need. Yes. For me, that is a break of your drive and obedience exercise without command. I typically say to people, could you imagine that in obedience, the dog have to make the send out and down all by itself without any command from you? And that's what you are asking for around the article, right? To indicate that. Yeah. So I have a philosophy, I cannot prove it, but I have philosophy, which is the better a dog track, the bigger problem you have with article. And the other way around. The better the dog wants to indicate the article, the more the dog is asking for the article. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I'm so, so I'm finding myself very agreeable with this conversation. It's a balance. Crazy. No. And you see it, you know, when I see it, I'm sure it's probably the same for you. You see it right away in the, in the moment the article starts to be part of the tracking and they're like, what is this to do? For the dogs that are really enjoying the tracking. And then the other ones are so preoccupied with liking the article that they are not into tracking. And you can see it.

This is a, one of the delicate, interesting moments that tells you what you need to pay attention with that particular dog. But, but you don't know that, you don't know that until that article comes in play. Exactly. And you are struggling with that for the rest of your life. The balance between the better you teach the dog to track the list article and the other way around. Right. If you ask me. Do you, how, how soon do you, do you have any, like saying like, okay, we're 10 months old. It's time to introduce the articles or it's a certain stage where the dog is in the tracking that you introduce the articles. What is a. First of all, I start the very first day when I bring the puppy to indicate article out of the track. Okay. In the kitchen. Play and have fun. Now that article is your food bow. Here you get. And when the dog can do that pretty good at the same time, I train track. But that means the first day when I want to put an article on the track, my dog is having a quite good track maybe. But I know because we just talked about that. My biggest challenge is that or my biggest fear is if my dog is going too much into track mode. When the dog meet the article, the dog will stop and look at it. And then I will correct my dog. And then my dog will be afraid of the article. Right. I mean, when my dog meet the article and my dog typically say, no, I prefer to track more. And if I then correct my dog on the article, then my dog start avoiding the article. Yes. So in that first time I start putting article on the track, let's say, so in an example, that my dog can track 100 paces with three, four corners. When I put an article on the first time, I do it on an extremely short track. You'll make it sound so simple. Very, very simple track, five steps straight out and an article. And then I tie the dog to a tree maybe and show the article and put it down. And probably the dog's not barking and yelling and screaming. And I go to the flag and the dog hopefully say, I don't care about the track. I run to the article. I saw you put it there. Fine with me. I do it again. Next time I don't show, I put it down. Then the dog maybe track half the footprint. Brilliant. Then the article's there. And then I put the dog in the car. Then the dog forgot about the article. So go a little bit more into track mode, but meet the article. Brilliant. And then another subject for me is tons of people is training article out of the track and then put it on track. But I think people is not spending time enough to imagine how is the situation when you meet the article on the track. Right.

I mean, very often a good example is people have an article and the dog indicate, indicate, indicate and they reward, reward, reward. But you are not standing in front of the dog and rewarding when the article is on the track. You are behind the dog. So teach the dog to be in front of you alone where you're just behind the dog and the dog has to go by itself. That's a huge step for a dog. Yes. Yeah, that's a man that that's almost every train every everything we train to to be to be training for what you actually have to perform and not just to look good in the little game of training that just looks good. And I think maybe that's the story I'm telling most time is remember what are you doing in obedience, right? In the training terms. I mean, a lot of people have a box for the sit and the down. It works nice. But you know, if you only do that, there's a long way to IGBT3 sit exercise, right? Yeah, that's such a good analogy, too, because it's not that the box will not work, but you stay longer in there and not give the dog opportunity to move on from there. Now, when you try to move, it becomes a problem. The step is too big. Yes. The dog is like, and then the dog may problem and then you correct the dog and then the dog be afraid of the exercise. Yes, that's a good. I mean, maybe you know her by name, but Christine Diaz from Brazil. Yes, of course. I know where I've been at her place. Yes, I know. I've been many times and I'm very, very impressed about them. And she's training obedience very nice. And I said to her that food in your hand. I'm an old idiot. You have to be like this. But after a month, I contacted her and said, it doesn't work. And she started laughing. I said, Lars, you have to do it a whole year. A whole year. Yeah, but Lars, how can you be so patient with your track and not with that healing? You cannot expect the dogs doing that overnight. And I feel like an old idiot, right? That's exactly the same those talent, obedience people is doing, spending time and time and time with that. What happens if you're like the way your system is, if the dog has some break, let's say, let's say Denmark winter time and you're not tracking or Florida summer time. And how do the dog retain and I'm so, this is one of my, I'm fascinated with this question because, you know, like I would go to somewhere and I'll be gone for a week or two weeks or whatever. And I'm always curious to come back and see how bad my dog wants to do things with me and how much correctness also there is. That's like always fascinates me.

How, how is it if you pay attention to it even after a certain break with the dog that doesn't have issues? It's just a dog that's good tracker, but it's the season and whatever. And there is a break and coming back to it. Um, that's interesting question. Again, I hope people understand that you and me have not talked about that before the podcast, right? That's a big issue for me when I have seminars, no matter where I am in the world. A lot of people have excuses, not bad excuses, but they have excuses. I mean, in Finland, Oh, especially on tracking. Yes. Oh my God. In the state, Oh, we have fire ants. Oh, we have rain. We have wind. We have these. And then I say, but then take break. You can take a long, long break. If you train. Right. In the old days, when we was cooperating a lot with the dog, the guys from Finland, they contact me and they said last could become a track in your country because Finland is here. Denmark is here. So our window is not so strong. Yes. Yeah. So they come to us. They track very, very intensely, maybe two weeks, very intensely, very intensely. But then they go back and didn't track for four months. And it was not. Okay. So, and I try to prove that when I have people in a club, I said, am I so lucky that there is a person here who have an old retired ITP dog? And then they bring the dog next day, let's say 14 years old. I said, lay a track. No, no, no, no, no. The dog had not tracked for six years. But that dog will typically show 95% of the quality that the dog was showing as a competition dog for six years ago. Which for me is a clear proof that you can allow yourself to take quite a long break. Yes. And it's also a proof that the system is based on something better than just kind of trying to prepare for this one shot. Oh, yeah. You know? It's just me there, I'm asked. Right. Right. This is really how I evaluate myself and my approaches. It's like, let's say, you do obedience and okay, you make it one time, but then you give it a break and you make another one maybe in the afternoon. Just the whole routine without the rewards. What fluctuates? How far apart they are or how close they remain? And the same with going away and the dog having some break and coming back and it's like, okay, let's go. Let's go tracking or let's do blind something. I think these are very, for me, very, very beneficial tests on how strong the understanding and the motivation to do. I can only agree with you. And I also make that speech when I have seminars said to people, believe it or not, but nowadays I'm tracking 50% less compared to what I did for 20 years ago. But a better result.

Interesting. Because I'm avoiding all the problems. Yes. All of them, but a majority of the problem. You're aware of them. In the old days, I was spending tons of time teaching my dog not to be afraid of the flag or be afraid of the article or avoiding or whatever it was. You remember in the old days, we could barely drag the dog out of the car to the competition on the track field because the dog was sitting. No way. We don't want to go there. We have changed. And I'm proud of that actually. How can we not be proud? I mean, yes, this was, this was not good times. Indeed. No, we have been very silly. Oh, I have been very silly. There is, what, man, I just, my, my, my head just, it's like a ping pong inside so many different questions. I want to just, what about the, do you prefer dirt or grass to start or does it matter to you? Some people are very, very like, I'm, I have to wait to, to track on what I, you know, if I, if I could decide, yes, but I can't. So when I get a puppy, the time of the year, I must track on the condition there is. But it's important for me because I want to teach my puppy to put the nose down and all the footprint, like a muscle memory. Yes. Because later when I take the food away, I created the greatest opportunity to take the scent and the smell for the distortion of the surface. But if I cannot see the footprint, how should I then be able to teach my dog to put the nose in them? So if I have dirt, I love that. If I don't, okay, then I use short grass. The only thing I actually avoid during education of the dog is tall vegetation. I mean, vegetation who is taller than that. Well, it's like a little tunnel and yes. Yeah. And the dogs start breaking the grass at the top and the dogs that scent and smell that and lift the nose and get reward for that in our training. Yes. I mean, in the corner, the dog lift the nose. Oh, it's going that way. And then we have put food after the corner. Then the dog get rewarded for lifting the nose and the dog will be all fine about that. Say, yeah, I did what you asked for. So I later when my dog is well educated, of course, introduce it to tall vegetation now and then because the competition could be that. But until I'm done educating my dog, I try to train on surface where I can make visible footprint where I can, but also where I can decide. No, now the dog start being better. Now I can start to show a little bit of work nicer. So they start being invisible footprint. Right. But even like I like for me, I love visible stuff, but I love it also for one. One. Almost more important reason.

To where I know the footprints, but there is other like from yesterday, there is the truck from yesterday or or I walked around before I laid the truck. So there is footprints all over the place, but I know which footprints we need to follow. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I talk with a lot of clients about that. They talk about foreign just footprint. Oh, I've been here for one hour ago or somebody had played soccer. I say, I don't care, but you have to know which footprint is the right one. Yes. You have to know that. But if you know that, I don't care how many footprint there is. And if you need to make around. Everybody's using the same field. So there's tons of footprint there. Yes. But you must know which one is your. Yeah. Very interesting. Do you, speaking still of change of terrain. Like for me, if again, Florida is horrible for trucking. I am like, I always joke with like most Germans or Czech people or anybody that has this, you know, you walk out the door and you just walk for two minutes and you track forever to whatever you want. No, no, we, every, every time I have to go trucking, it's a good 40 minutes drive one way. And then I have to fight with the weather and the ants, of course, and I have four dogs that I'm trucking. I'm like a small club trial every day, you know. But if, if, but if I have the option to where I have grass, I have dirt, I have a little dirt road, I will use them all almost right away. That's kind of what I do. What, how, how is your strategy as far as teaching the dog different terrain and changes and things like that? But that's probably where I start being a little bit controversial. That's good. We all know our challenge. We know I need to know a farmer, the weather condition, I have to drive to the farm. But come on, look how much space we have on the training field for the blinds. You could have in the corner a little track field, just a hundred and a hundred feet. Only for puppies. Yes. Or in your backyard. But you can build enormous foundation there. And you could have one with short grass and one with dirt. Yes. It doesn't make so much. It's a quarter of a baseball field or whatever. And very often you could afford that, having that in your backyard or in your club. True. True. And I mean, you could just take the dirt and comb it. So I have some clients now, they have done that because they have a big yard. Look Lars, I make a small track field here. Yeah, why not? Because then they can really go into detail on that little small track. So in my backyard and I'm living in Copenhagen downtown, I have a very, very small track. It's maybe 10, 15 footprint.

That's my dog's foot place. All my puppies. And I use the same track for two years because I can see those footprints and I load them in the morning because I'm only interested in building up a muscle memory. Bang your nose down, bang your nose down, bang your nose down. And that makes it more convenient. Then I get the job done instead of giving up. Right. And I can see a lot of my client. I know it's like a little bit cheating maybe. But if I can teach them to do that, they have success immediately with a little job and success create motivation. And then they start training more. But we must start simple. I mean, how many people nowadays is not starting with the obedience exercise on the kitchen floor? Sure. Sit down. Yes, of course. When you don't need a square meter is good enough in the beginning. Of course. For me, it's a little bit the same with the track. I mean, a lot of people is at a young age making way too long track. A lot of people is talking about track endurance. I don't believe in that. Track endurance is meaning? For FH stock and they have to make long track to stay concentrated. I don't believe in that. I mean, if you look at her, as I recorded, you have been a little bit into material art, mixed material art. Yes. Yes. If you look at boxing, professional boxing, and there's coming a young upcoming guy and he needs success. So they bring a guy, a fat has been from a journeyman from Mexico, on North of Ireland. He's maybe out of shape. He's maybe 40 years old. But have you noticed he's never going down? He have learned the lesson. I have to lose, but I'm not going down. Why? You are out of shape. You cannot stand on your legs. It's mentally. He have learned that in his culture. I don't get paid. I am not going down. You cannot be the guy from Belfast down or from Mexico, right? They have it in the heart and in the brain. And I mean, if I can put that drive into my dog on track, they will track for hours. Yeah. Yeah. And they do that all day long when they're on their own anyway. Exactly. So I mean that and also because FH people, sorry to say, I don't want to offend people, but a lot of them, they make long, long, long, long track. And then at the end of the day, oh, how was it? Yeah, you know what? I have 20 articles and the dog made 18 of them. Yeah. But what about the first one? Wow. What about the first one? If you miss them, it's too late. I mean, I want to be good from the very first footprint when I say sook. Yeah, like, you know how this is a man, so many cool, interesting stuff we're covering here. Like for the like, yeah, endurance. We can talk about endurance and tracking.

We can also talk about how bad the dog likes and wants to track. And that's much more important. That's much more interesting, right? Yeah, the dog can make protection work 20 minutes. So it's not a matter about lung capacity or heart, right? Yes. It's much more important how much the dog wants to, yeah? And then, like typically, when any time, even with my oldest dog, with any dog, when I do a track and the track is over, for me, the track is not over yet. Because I'm watching, would he want to track more if he had the option or is he really done? Exactly. Exactly. I mean, when I'm tracking without lease, I go through the last article, show it to the judge. Then I need to pick up a lease from my pocket and drag my dog away from the track because my dog wants to track more. Yes. And I like that. That is proving that's what I'm here to show you. Exactly. Yeah, that's almost one of my ways of how I increase the length of the track. Like, I would pay attention to whatever the length of the track is that I had. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I think you're a puppy and you should be done by now, but you're not done. Guess what? You're showing me. The next track, we're giving you more because you want more. Yeah. Exactly. So, it comes, we are expanding because of the dog's ability to want to and because he still can stay focused, he or she, to do it. It's not the other way around that you're exhausting and provocating the dog to go forward. Yes. Which is kind of where you were going with a very long track with 20 articles. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's a little bit the same in obedience nowadays with modern people. We are asking the dog to push us to ask, do something instead of forcing the dog to do it. Right? Yes. It's the other way around. Exactly. Yeah. Lars, tell me, tell me about the, how did you come up with your program and how did you decide on a book versus something else and just give me some, something what's happening because this is fresh and it just starting and it seems like it's really taking off and congratulations to you for, for, you know, this is always a, I know how much work is involved doing stuff like this. So, congratulations and give, give me some, some tell, tell us about this. Well, it has been like, I don't know, let's say the last seven, eight years. Every time I have seminar, somebody is coming up to me and say, Lars, you need to write a book. I said, I went seven years to public school. I cannot even spell my own name. I'm incredible stupid. So all the time refused. But then for two years ago, I was in Portugal and the lady who invited me for the seminar,

she said the same, you have to make a book. And I said, impossible. I can't. I can't. And then she said to me, but, but have you heard about AI? And then I was like, oh, I didn't have a clue about AI. And she said, literally, you could actually just put a camera here and then we could translate it and put it in the book. Mm hmm. Okay. And that was the first step. And then I was asking on social media, would there be an interest of attract book? And that was very overwhelming because there is nothing right, really. And after that, then I asked again on social media, is there anybody who can help me with it? Because I am very, very stupid to all that. And I was actually having a kind of job interview with some people. And I find a young guy in the United States and I knew him a little bit already. He is very, very intelligent. Very, very nice. Not a super dog man, but he's very smart. Sure. And the funny part in that process have been that I have said that to him and I will gladly say it here loud. I'm convinced about he have a lot of HD AD. Oh my God, his brain is like that all the time. And then I try to keep no, no, no, no, no, we have to stay here. But because of that, the book have exploded. So now it's it's not just a book. It's a platform. Yes. Like the book is like there's a lot of stories about me. We try to first of all, we make we was having a lot of meetings where we decided if we make a book, it has to be easy to understand. Because a lot of dog people is not professors. We need to talk simple language. It needs to be a little bit light, a little bit funny. So there's a lot of stories about me and my training with dogs and my life with dogs. But then there's also, which is most important, all the exercise, all the exercise, the one to championship, where I explain it step by step. There's a lot of photos and a lot of diagram. And at the same time, each exercise is filmed. So when you buy the book, you are connected to that platform called school. You go in there in the classroom, find each exercise where that guy, Eric, he helped me make a small cartoon with a small funny dog. And then my voice explaining and then the exercise where somebody you get the visual. Because dog people like to see it. Absolutely. Oh, they get the story. They get the pictures. They get the diagram and they get the video. But on that platform, we are also making podcasts where once a month I show up and people can have live questions. And they can upload the track they have and say, hey, I have a problem here. And I go in and help them with it live. And so we hope that works good for people.

And even the rule book is there. When did you launch it? That was like what, like not even a month ago or something. I mean, it was 27 of June. Yeah, two weeks ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. More or two weeks ago. And it's not me to be nervous, but that was the first time in my life where I was. I was not the person. Especially. Right. Well, and it's not just okay by the book, but the book has to, I mean, the whole thing has to work and be synchronized and not have glitches. And it's, you know, I have to say that guy, Eric, he's a master. Nice to do that. Yeah. Work his ass off, so to speak. And on the funny side, it had been very interesting travel for me because you know that I'm sure about that. Oh, my God. Well, it's a big difference in culture between Europe and United States. A little example is all the pictures in the beginning. He likes gold and black and dark with showing teeth. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We have to be more calm, more light, more polite. No, no, no. That's culture. And at the end of the day, I was yelling and screaming at him. The only thing you have in culture in the United States is Mickey Mouse. So it had been very interesting for me. To have that process with him. And how, what is the, like, if somebody wants to join your thing, it basically goes to your social media, gets the book and automatically everything follows, right? They can download it like ebook and listen to it in the car when they're driving or in the headphone. And they can also get it as a paperback or a hard book if they want. We just have to pay something extra for that. And but they can get that if they want. They just go into the web page we have and order it there. Okay. And so and then every day I put up a small video with some subject. Nice. Yeah. Right. Tomorrow I'm going to take a subject which is what is and it was a little bit. So we're about the there was a lot of discussion yesterday on social media. A little bit similar where I want to talk with people about what is the difference between a correction and a guiding. Right. Because very plain. If you think you are correcting your dog, but your dog see it as a guiding, you have a problem. So we need to talk about that. Yes. Because the guiding should stick to the dog or whatever. So but small stuff like that or where should we put the food? Should it be in the heel or the toe and why? Small subject. No, but these are small, but they are actually they play a role, you know? Yeah.

And also because I think now and then when we talk about track and anything else, there's coming up a lot of fancy stuff nowadays because of social media and some people want to earn money. I mean, all that equipment you can buy nowadays at the end of the day, it's a dog. Come on. Yes. So I make a little bit joke out of that. Maybe maybe we're too old. Because we need to make fun about that. Come on. It's a dog. Right. Do you film when you go to do workshops? Do you film sometimes or no? People ask me and I say, you're welcome to film. No, for you. No, no. Because I think this is like if I'm you or if I would give you advice, this this can expand the library like within three or four workshops. If you just have somebody maybe Eric or whatever, you know, somebody to come along and you're going to find out that there will be so many little moments that will fit right in in certain places. And you have that's, you know, it's not that you have to put a set up. It's like you're there anyway. This is happening life anywhere. And then you can use what you need. But I think you should collect this kind of library. So, you know, then I just have to consider, you know, that's also an issue. I have to navigate, you know that yourself, navigate in the world where how are the law in that country and that country and that country. Talk to me, tell me, tell me what. The United States, they ask me, can we film and take photos? Yeah, but please keep me out of the frame if there's e-colors and brown colors, because I will end up in bad situation home in Denmark. For sure. It's like I can give you a little example. I was tracking with a doberman puppy who have cropped ears. Oh, my God. There was almost about to ban him in Denmark, but it's not being cropped ears and it's legal in that country easy now. Yeah, I think this madness, it's really madness. And I don't know, man, it's kind of it's sad that Europe starts to get more and more comfortable with it, more used to it. It's like, OK, well, this is how it is, you know, but that's not how it's going to end. You have to expect people to say, OK, that's how it is. Right. But it's not going to end there. These people will keep pushing for more ridiculous, radical ideas, you know, like at some point. What would be, do you know, what is the penalty if, let's say, I go to Copenhagen and I have my dog on a prong collar and I go by the boats there and what happens? I go by the boat. OK, I have to say that. We can cut this off if you need to later. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't care.

If you go to Scandinavia, they will say, the people from Denmark, my country, they are considered as the Arabic people of the north. Hmm. Meaning if the police pull you on Sweden, the Swedish guy would say, yes, sir, no, sir. If the police put you on Denmark, I would say, hey, show me your badge. You're not a problem. I mean, we're a little bit of a problem. OK. So I can't remember anybody get caught yet with e-callers and prong callers in Denmark, even that is not allowed. And if they get it, they need to make a case and you have a lot of rights as a citizen. OK, so they need to confiscate it. It's not enough where you see it. They need to confiscate it and make a case before they can do anything. And then I think you will get a ticket. Yeah. Cost, let's say, I would say three, four hundred dollars. OK, OK. Yeah, I mean, it's not as extreme as in some other places then for sure. But then again, you also know the policeman who stopped you. You have some colleagues who are police dogs. Yes. And they also train and they also have to navigate in that world. Yes. Man, such a strange place Europe became. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's exactly as you said in the beginning. Yes. Yes. And I don't know. I wish I have some solution to offer to this. But I used to think maybe the FCI, the working dog commissions, whatever, they can stand up and put some opposition and education. I don't see that at all happening. I don't know what needs to happen. It's a modern world. It's like our dog will fit into the society. Maybe some really big war or something to where resets everything. It's like, hey, we actually really need to get real like we do need these dogs. And then there have to be a bloody big war. I mean, look how little we learned about the COVID crisis, right? We just go back to normal like that. Yeah. Yeah. Which countries are your favorite to go to now that you go all over the world? I can't say no. I love all places because they are different. Yeah. I'm the same way. Because I'm so nosy and want to see how they are living. And I can see when people pick me up in the airport, they are a little bit scared because I start immediately. What is the religion here? And what about the weapon law? What about the weapon law? What about the weapon law? What about the laws? Yes. I mean, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. What countries surprise you in terms of not hospitality, but just dog training culture

in a good way that you didn't expect? I was, and that makes me really humble. Just talking about it again now. I was in Peru having a track seminar there. Oh, that must have been beautiful. Oh yeah. It was a nice, nice, nice people, but the IGP sport is very small. Mm-hmm. There was coming three guys from Ecuador and they were so poor. They were driving in a public bus. Yes. Yes. This is common. Showing up with a small tent and a change around the trees for the dog. Yes. That makes me humble. Look how they have. I said, how can you afford this seminar? They have collected money in Ecuador from the dog clubs and bring them so they could come back with the knowledge. Yeah. And I mean, we are so arrogant in my country. I don't want to go out of my door and track with my dog because it's raining a bit. Yeah. That's my end. I've had similar stories like this. Like, actually, my, it's a funny story right now. I mean, you're going to laugh, kind of. I don't know. And then, some years back, I think it was early, somewhere 2000s, whatever, I'm going to Brazil to do a seminar. Or should I say I'm supposed to go to Brazil and do a seminar. I get a phone call. I'm just walking on my property. I get a phone call. It's like, what's going on when you're coming out? They're waiting for me to come out from the customs. I'm just walking here. And I, I just, my brain, my heart stopped. I just realized what's going on. I, I'm somehow in my caliber, because I'm just, at that time I wasn't, I'm like, okay. Oh yeah, we're going today, right? Man, I'm like. Well, they have spent several months preparing for that. Yes. So they want to. Yes. There is a, so he's like, don't, don't mess with me like this, man. Let's come because there's people waiting. We're late. I'm like, dude, I'm sorry. I'm not joking. I'm at home. And the guys are like, how? Now, now they're freaking out. They're like, how I'm going to go back there and tell those people that you're not here. There is people just like the guys that you're describing from Bolivia that came on a bus. That even that was a challenge to find money, how to do that. They have spent months of money just to go for you. Oh man. One of the, one of the worst, worst of all time things. I mean, it's such a lesson. I made it up for them. Like I went back and I did for free and bunch of other days and whatever. But, but you know, talking about how sometimes people would go on a bus and do all this. And I also remember myself in Belgium, you know, when I escaped from Bulgaria, because it was, I had to literally escape. Then who knows what would have happened. I didn't have anything.

So I, I'm living in this little small place near Hasselt in Alke, like a, whatever, like a central Belgium kind of. But the club that I'm going to, it's like 20 minutes with a bicycle. And thank God everybody's riding bicycle. So it doesn't look weird that I am just going to the dog training club with my dog and the bicycle back and forth. But that's all I had. That, that was my life. That's all I could do, you know? Oh man. It's funny. And also a little, another thing. When I have seminars, I say to people, because I don't know the culture in the country I'm coming. And Hey, I like alcohol, but I said to them, I just have to say that during the seminar, I'm not drinking anything. We can do that in the evening. Because when I leave the seminar, it's fine with me. If you say he was an idiot. But if you say I was drunk, I feel embarrassed about that. That's not professional. And I say that all the time. And I was in Chile. Well, you don't give a fuck. Yeah. Yeah. But nevertheless, you should taste this wine. It's my father who had made it. Oh, yes. And Chile is big with the wine. I mean, they are so laid back and you look very stressed, Lars. How old are you getting in your country? That balance between discipline and Mariana Manel. Yes. One hour. First time I was there, I was so upset nobody shows up. Where are they? Yeah, they are coming. They are coming. Because I'm coming from a world where. Yeah. So true. And then we got to stop with the little, this kind of break, then it's that kind of break. A little cheese. Yes. Taste that one here and a little piece of weed here. Yeah. They know how to live in other countries. This is cool. Yeah. So when are you, where is your next place? Where are you going? I think I'm in August. I'm going to Colorado. Colorado. Yeah. And then I'm actually for the first time going to India in the fall. Where at? I've been there before. I, uh, Delhi, I guess. Uh huh. I haven't been to Delhi. The guy who is living in Delhi. So I've never been there before. Man, I went, the first time I went to India, it was with, um, Sachin. He's a Malinois guy. He, he's the only guy from India that competes at the world championship. Yeah. I was at his place. And then I was like, okay, I think I went once. It's good. I don't need to go again. But then somehow they convinced me, some other people, and then went again. And I, the second time, I was like, man, India is cool. But it, it takes a little. To get used to it. Yeah. It takes time to, to understand it. It's very, like, I don't know how to say it in a better way. It just takes some time to understand it.

Like, I remember me making a comment, man, I wish it was, the streets were a little cleaner, and I wish this, and, and then my friends look at me and then it's not India. Then, then it's just in the, another, your typical country, you know? And that's like, you're so right. Yeah, you need to see it in your face. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And also about United States, the different that people in Europe don't know about how different you are in United States. I mean, during the COVID crisis, I was having a seminar in Texas, landing in the airport in Houston. It's a good place to be. I was the only one who have a mask. I was like, OK, and a guy picked me up outside the airport, and he don't wear a mask either. And I don't care about that. So I said, excuse me, sir, what about you don't wear any mask? We don't be leaving that shit down here. Hey, it's cool. I took my mask off and there was nice and friendly people. And everybody had women. I was like, I'm not used to that. But two days later, I have a seminar in Denver. Everybody was smoking joint. Ah, it's the same country here. I'm trying to get it. So that also makes you humble to understand how country is different. Right. Let's go back to tracking real quick. When you when you. Like if you have the opportunity to make. The length of a workshop. Your way, what would that be? It's funny. You bring up those questions like I think it's because you have done it yourself. So many times I don't know. But but I have figured out four days is maximum for me. I cannot stay in a place more than four days. And also the dogs and the people. And then, you know, it's just that it there is a there is a point where it's not enough. But there is a point when. Yes. Yeah. The concentration is going up here. Very often the last day on the seminar, I said, I think we should stop now. We can easily continue. But you are filled. I can see they are sitting with eyes like that. Yeah. They are exhausted. The dogs, the people and everything. So at one hand, I understand they have paid a lot of money. They want more, more, more. But it's too late. You feel there's no communication. So two or three days. I enjoy that. Yeah. Not more than four. And of course, you probably would rather go to places that you've been before so you can have some progression or you like also going to very new places. I like both. But when I go back to places where I've been before, that is that good thing about that. They are used to how I am acting. Right. Because a lot of people get a little bit offended, afraid or concerned because too direct. Yeah. The European way is quite direct. Yes. But don't mean it like that. Right.

Swearing, yelling at people, pushing them. Hey, you should talk nice to me. Yes. Come on. It's not sport. Come on. It's not because I'm not aggressive. I'm not negative. People get very easily offended. And when they're used to that style, it's easier to come back. Right. Yeah. Like I, you know, like when I do seminars, I like to go to new places, of course. But you, you remember that old movie, well, old, yeah, like the 90s, the Groundhog Day. Exactly. To where, yes. It's just like you're in a new place. It's just like you're in a new place. However, you got to play exactly the same script one more time and one more time and one more time. And not that it's not interesting, but sometimes I'm like, man, I've got next step. And I'm like, oh, yeah. And I'm like, oh, yeah. And I'm like, oh, yeah. How do you feel that that's where you're going to get to? In the beginning when I was introducing level one and level two seminar and I come back to level two, I was very, very upset because I thought, okay, now you know level one, we can go further. No, no way. But now I've realized it's because there's so much information. It's so controversial. It's so much. So I need to take the first day, even that it's level two, to make a catch up for level one where come on. Remember this, remember that instead of in the beginning, I was very frustrated. With. Now, this is not going to be a good question. No, like, yeah, we can we can cut this out. That's good. Just you and me. Like, do you. As far as equipment, what do you like to have on a dog? Like we take this off. It's not going to be on the. I don't care. Personally, when I train obedience, I'm a big fan of e-colors, but I use an incredible low stimulation because it's my action with my hands is out of the picture. So I like to play with e-colors. But when we talk about track, I'm spending so much time, especially in the United States, to convince people about taking prong colors and e-colors away from the dog. Not because I don't like it. I like it. But you need to take it away sooner or later. Yes. If you want to have the same outcome when you go for a trial. Yes. And a lot of people have it a little bit. I don't know what to call that. Insecurity. Yeah. And it looks so nice. Yeah. Yes. Take that prong color away and then you will see another outcome. Right. It's like. So you need to get rid of it. The bicycle with the helping wheels. Right. Like we got to start to. You know. Yeah. Spot. So it's not because I'm against it. I use. Sorry. Not e-colors. I use prong colors on my track. But I have a very, very clear idea why and when I take it away. Right. And I can see the right outcome. Right.

But it's difficult to convince a lot of people about that because it's convenient. Yes. When we're out in a problem. Everything in training that looks good. But. But it's still there is so many other steps that you need to go. But you kind of look good. Comfortable here. You're afraid to take anything away because you know that maybe it's gonna. But this is this is part of the learning. That little shake up. But I also see that when people have to send the track videos to me. Mm. In the beginning they are cherry picking. They find the best video and send to me. And I said no that's wrong. You should send the bad video to me. Yes. That's like. I'm. You know why I'm laughing is because with my school for the dog trainers I have. They have to go through written and then practical tests and a lot of times they're far away. So they have to send me videos. And it's like I don't care how it looks at the end. And I want to see that moment when you struggle. Why the struggle came and how you're gonna come out of the struggle. This is this is where you show me your skill. It's not anywhere else. Exactly. Exactly. And your problem is maybe over here. Yes. Yes. That's why you have the struggle here. Yes. Yeah. And speaking of this, do you. How much attention you pay to how close you are and how much like the different stages next to the leash length like like some people like to be super close always. Some people try very, very quickly to stay out. What is your. A lot of dogs I see actually they get better the faster I can go a little bit away from the dog to leave the dog alone. So you're kind of. Mm hmm. But on the other hand, I am never, never, never more than five meters away. What is that? 15 feet. Yeah. Yeah. Away from the dog. Because then I realized when I'm five meters away, I could might as well be 20 meters. Yes. I'm out of the dog's picture. Yeah. And if I'm only five meters away instead of 10, I can still be in charge of where are the track, what's going on here, where are the corners. But to brand new client, I say to them now and then you must train 10 meter leads because that's quite scary if you have not tried that before. It's for sure. And somebody else lay your track. Exactly. And you're. But only because you are afraid of it. Yes. You have no idea how many like, well, because I was telling you how I will track four dogs by myself, but then, but then I have to help my, my people here, like my wife and my trainers. And, and specifically I have to help them with me laying tracks for them and they not knowing where the tracks are and just making, creating this understanding, this feeling and this eye of what

the dog actually tells them instead of them always dictating what needs to happen. Man, you have no idea how long it takes for the person to start to feel comfortable to, oh, I know my dog is struggling or, oh, I know my dog is on it or I know my dog is. I admit it. Right. Do you, how, how often I, I typically don't do, I mean, I, I typically lay my tracks. But of course, if I have an option choice, sometimes of course, it's a good check in to, to do with somebody else. What is your take on your track versus somebody else laying on the track for your dog? I would say 99.9% of all my track, I lay them myself. It's you, right? Yeah. That's because it's typical. I'm training or on the time of the day where nobody else is available because of my traveling. And also I have tons of temperament. So if they don't do exactly as I have told them, the people who lay my track, I went ballistic. So it's better. Okay. I'd say that myself. I normally, I normally walk. Like if Natalia will be laying the track, I'm walking right next to her. Okay. Exactly. Do this, do that, do this, do that. Yeah. And something when I get older, I admit it that I have a lot of temperament. With the aging of a track, what do you, what, what are your beliefs on that? That's also another subject because I don't believe in that. I don't believe. I agree with you. I mean, in the old days I was sitting in the car waiting one hour on track with the dog. That was before cell phone. Oh my God. I read a lot of stupid books. Nowadays, I lay the track, take the dog track. Yeah. And I don't see any different. And the last dog I educate from a guy in the United States, I make FH and I have never tracked a track who was more than 10 minutes old, like 15 minutes. And there was no different. Yeah. I, I'm the same. And I mean, if the dog can find cancer and diabetes and coronavirus, should that be the different? Right. Right. Yeah. I agree with you. I like this. I, you know, I think for me on track is regarding to the dog's ability to track, we are actually training too easy. Right. So we are not challenged the dog and then the dog start picking the nose and start doing an automatic pilot and fall asleep. And then we correct the dog and then the dog say, I don't get it. I think this is one thing that most trainers that are, you know, serious into tracking would agree on, that tracks cannot be so easy that that happens. So we're talking about the, you know, laying the track and running it pretty soon. Of course, I, I, I'm sure you, you also do this taking under consideration, like if there is strong

wind that this can change or sometimes you wish that there is some rain and like anything in the weather condition that can disturb the track that you have to show the dog, of course, this is very useful learning experiences. But other than that, just sitting in the car, as you said, for another hour, it makes no sense. Right. Not for me, but I'm challenged by dog no matter what with many things. And it's interesting. You talk about that because I was in Norway and one of the students was asking me, Lars, what do you consider as a difficult track field? And I was like, hmm. And then I come up with this, a track field, a kind of track field I never have tried before is difficult for me. Meaning I need to train as much as possible. So my dog gets used to it. And of course, I also have to admit that I spent a lot of time investigating for competition. What are they going to track on? Oh, for sure. And then you get the surprise at the trial. And they change it the day before or they filled me with. Yeah, whatever. But also when we see, you know that for sure how different track condition is in different countries. Right? Yes. I mean, when I tell people in Denmark, 75% of all our electricity is coming from the windmills. And they are standing on the farmers field and the wind is strong and the big windmills. If the dog is not used to that. Right. Right. No, for sure. I mean, when you buy articles, you know, typical, I think Gap. I have three articles and I said, one of them is filled. We don't use them in Denmark because the wind is so strong. It's going to take them away. So that means we don't care about when we are used to that. But when we are coming to, I remember in Italy, they have water channel between the field. The trees also. Yeah. Yeah. And the dog have to get used to that. We have never seen that before. Man, cool stuff. So there's so many different track conditions, right? So we need to prepare our dogs. We need to prepare our dogs more. Hopefully everybody is enjoying this. This is such a good conversation. Thank you. But also for me, I think, I don't know why, maybe it's police job or fancy people on social media, but I'm also struggling a lot about convincing people about what IGP track actually is. I mean, compared to I see people start tracking with blindfolding the dog. I know, I know. Why should my dog not be allowed to see the footprint? Just check them. I allowed my dog to see the footprint, investigate it and take the decision. There are some crazy ideas. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even want to

mention them because I'm, I have enough of. The last one I heard, you need to hear that. I heard a club. You are not allowed to lay track in rubber boots if there are tire marks on the field left from the tractor. Because both is rubber and then the dog would be confused. That's, that's some deep logic right there. Huh? I was like, no comments, no comments. But it's amazing what you hear now and then, come on. Well, I remember myself sleeping with my socks before my first trial in Belgium. Oh yeah. I was even thinking that I'm gonna make holes on my boots. Right, that with the boots with meat and blood. Yeah. With feet down in that mass meat. Yeah. And the way we, the way we started back in Belgium was with, you know, And we're having to put it down in with fishes. We were dragging the tribe, the cow's stomach on a string. Exactly. Drag it on the ground. Putting it in the boots too. And it's like, man, it's good times. Put it in lady socks, nylon socks. We put the meat there and a leash and drag it on the ground. Yeah. Yeah. What the, I mean, this, this actually, you know, I, every once in a while, I'm thinking that I, I wanna go back to that dragging that tribe, that cow's stomach, because I think I would do it so much different and better. That like, like it's, you know, like so tempting to, to give it a try, you know, like, like there is some stuff from the old school things that were done very incorrectly, but the ideas weren't bad. You're right. And we kind of threw the baby with the water at that time, you know? Exactly. I mean, last month I saw, and I totally forgot that. Do you remember in the old days when you have a lot of puppies on a team and you want to train a little bit bite work? Nice. You make a swing. You make the puppy circle. You're standing in the middle. Yes. Nice. Yes. Lift all the, the unsecured dog, lift them. Yes. It's a fix. It was all fire. It was all fire. The party start barking. We forgot that completely. Yes. Yeah. Very true. Wow, man. Now, Lars, we missed the game, France and Morocco, I think. But what do you think? They are now. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to, we're going to, I mean, we've hopefully we'll see some of it. They're going the whole way. Yeah. I think they're going the whole way. They will win. You think? That's, that's kind of what everybody thinks, but it's been such a crazy one. I think so many, like it's surprising how many games got decided by penalties. I mean, this was wild. Yeah. And also I can't remember the world championship where all the big names is standing up. I mean, Messi, Meped, Cain. Ronaldo. All of them on the top. Ronaldo.

He played the whole game yesterday. We're crazy. But yeah. And then, and then the Americans with the red cards and like, like, come on guys. Like, why are we doing this? Why are we doing this? And, you know, I kind of felt bad for the, for the players because I think somehow everybody pumped them that they're super team. You cannot team players. And they were good team to, to when the limits kind of show now that, you know, their levels, you know. And it's not fair people start laughing at them. Right. And, and, and right. And the, the, that's, that was my whole point because the kids, the players, they were crying because everybody made them have this hope. And now they felt that they failed the whole country. And they didn't. And they didn't. And it's just levels. Like, they were doing okay compared to what you could expect. Right. Right. Right. It is like, but it's a good one. So you have France. I, I also think France is going to be. But we have to say the African country have done good this year. Yeah. Right. Jesus. And the one. And I was going further to the next one. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Big strong players. Fast. And that, you know, the, the, it's cool how they're doing the video laybacks, but the offsite thing, it's getting a little bit too much. It's like a hair or fingernail or come on. Yes. This, this has, I hope they somehow change that. Cause that's like a, it really starts to make the game weird, you know, and all that hydration break and all that. Right. Right. Stop. This is, yeah, but this is the world today. And the current world, come on, you should be exhausted. Yes. Man. Tell people again. Uh, how to find you. They just go into the webpage, the itptrackbook.com. Itptrackbook.com. Super easy. And I'm going to put everything in the description so everybody can find it. Lars, that was a very much, a very enjoyable conversation. I hope you like it. I liked it. Hopefully some place, some time. I'm sure we're going to cross paths again somewhere. I hope so. So thank you, my friend. Thank you so much. I appreciate it to you. Let's go catch the game later. Let's go catch the game later.