Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 26: Debbie Zappia

um all all the above over the years. Wow. Wow, that's a really long, long way back, for sure. Yeah. And I didn't know I knew I knew somehow, I don't even recall why I know this, but I knew about you having a Rottweiler. I've never seen you with a Rottweiler, so that must have been way before um I was paying attention in the sport in the states, and um So, well Schutzhund from for for a very, very long time. Um What was and what is your favorite part of dog training altogether? Forget about A, B, and C in Schutzhund, but like just dog training. What do you like the most about it? I think I think then and even now, what I liked was seeing what a dog could do. So, especially starting out at that time, we didn't have internet like we have today. So, we didn't have social media, we didn't have videos, we didn't have anything like that. Um so, it was just playing with dogs at the time and seeing what a dog could do. And trying to set up environments so that I could get the most out of my dog and have my dog perform. And at that time, and still today, probably obedience is my favorite part of it. Um and obedience being very, very loose. Shaping behaviors, getting dogs to do things, um overcoming obstacles with your dog. That was always my love. Just seeing what a dog could do. I know, like from what we've been talking recently over the phone, I know you like quite a few similarities, like like you you always as you said before internet, we had to search for new and and all knowledge was delivered thing in a very different way, but even today we with all the success you're still very curious about what is out there and who's doing what and and trying to improve training and style and everything, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Um I I think you know, when when you look at somebody who's been in this as long as I've been in this, you're coming from a point of view that I knew absolutely nothing. So, even today you still when you see things going on you think you absolutely know nothing, even now. But at that time it was literally you knew nothing. And there was nowhere where to really learn it. So, you were experimenting on your own. Um if you could find someone that was actually doing a workshop or a seminar, you tried to get to it no matter where it was because they they were few and far between. Um And and then you just watched what other people were doing and would go home with whatever you saw and you would try to apply that. Um At the time that I was competing in Schutzhund in the beginning, just a jump and a scaling wall was amazing. You know, you saw those apparatuses and you thought, "Oh my gosh, how am I ever

going to do this? How am I going to get a dog to go over this?" Uh and I remember Günther Lamprecht, who was a judge and ended up being a dear friend of mine, died over the last a few years ago, um was in Albany, New York and I went to see him and see what he was doing. There was a trial there and I wanted to know what was going on. And at the time I think I had my Rottweiler, so it was my second dog. Uh and so he was teaching the scaling wall, how you actually taught to over scaling wall. And he told me, you know, "Sit here with your stand here next to your dog and go over the wall and then come back." And so I'm like, "Okay, well, I can do that." So, like like kill dog. I went with over dog, over the top of the wall and came back over the wall and he died laughing. But that's how little I knew, right? I didn't know that. Um and so I really can feel for people who haven't done this sport before and who are trying to learn and do things because I was there. You know, I I I was there. I failed more times than I passed. Right. And and you had a like the time when you got really into it and everybody started to pay attention. Women was were not really it was like the man, the guy's thing. And and you broke some walls and you earned respect in a in a very like, here I am and this is what I do and it's not by a chance. I can do it again and again and again. Tell me a little bit how that felt with I mean, I'm sure there was a struggle that I I never got to experience just because uh you know, of you being a woman and I I'm I don't know. You you tell me. Was that Was there a struggle? How how how was it? Yeah. There was a struggle. Um as you said, there were not very many women in the sport at all. And so if you did attend a seminar, if you went somewhere and then when you finally broke in and were actually trialing your dog, um you took a lot of abuse. And by abuse I mean people would actually at that point in time try to make you cry. Would say things to upset you. And right from the very beginning my thought was No one's going to make me cry over dogs. That's never going to happen. Like you can do as much as you want to do to me and I'll stand here, but you're not going to make me cry and you're not going to make me leave. And so you would go to different things, go to seminars, learn what you could learn, go back and play with it at home. For me it was go out and fail usually in the beginning stages until you broke through as you just said and and then you started competing. And then it was a matter of now you're you're out there and you're actually competing and you're actually able to go to a national event

with your dog. You've scored enough, you're there, you've decided you're going to give it a try. And again you were fighting a hierarchy that existed before you. Um my number in USCA when I joined USCA was in the 300s. So that shows you how long ago even I became a member of USCA. Um so when I would go to trials, you were fighting groups that existed already. Like they called it the bomber group, right? Which was up to Alabama boys. Um and girls. There I mean he Gary had a wife, Pam, and she was involved some. She was probably the only other one that I really remember at the time that was involved. But so you were just fighting these different groups that already existed that were winning and you were out there with your dog trying to win. And that took a while. Um and and people always have their opinion of course, their perception of you. And I hear it even to to this day where some people think, "Oh my gosh, she's all positive. She she you know never corrects the dog." And then I hear somebody else or what comes down the grapevine where, "Oh, I'm so compulsive and that's all I do is compuls the dog." And then I hear somebody else, "Oh, she only uses cookies." And then it's always something. And for me it was train that kind of dog or this was the lucky moment. Yes. So I heard, you know, she bought the dog that was already trained and then I heard well she didn't train it. Everybody has trained my dogs but me if you talk to people from she didn't train the dog Jean England trained the dog or she didn't train the dog the the dog was trained in the Netherlands or she didn't train the dog Jan Cox trained the dog or she didn't train it was always someone else training my dog never me and my husband that was another funny one because my husband does like virtually nothing and people would call him and ask him questions. Um he he he didn't train the dog. He showed one dog and I trained that dog. So it was it was always that and it just became a joke that that's the way it was and you know, you just have to keep on going putting one foot in front of the other until you accomplish something um and I had a dog Dante Traho. Dante I remember I remember all of your dogs the German Shepherds simply because we you know, we kind of grew up in the sport at the same time. Right. So yeah, I know there was nothing there was Dante Escobar. Um Iron of course I know I'm missing somebody. Guy was another one that I competed in the world championships with him. There were a number but I think Danny well my first dog that I ever competed at a world championship was Natan. Um and he was a show dog out of Vopo vom Kirshental which that was a time when

show dogs actually worked. Yes. Yeah, I made a world team with him and competed with him and that was the first time that I did that. Um but I think it was really the time that I was competing with Dante that things started to change a little bit for me. Um and I actually that was the time when you when you started to realize that you're good at it or when you started to earning the respect from from the rest of the people in the sport. Well, it was during that time that I was approached by an by an organization that existed within USCA and was told that if I joined their group, I would finally start doing something with my dog. Um and I listened and said, "Well, uh you know, thank you very much for inviting me into your group, but I think I'm going to go this on my own and if I make it, I make it and if I don't make it, I don't make it. That's okay with me. Um so that dog went out onto the field and it was in Missouri, I think, the first time I showed him. And he, you know, he wasn't perfect. In fact, at dumbbells, he almost chewed them apart. But I had a standing ovation with with him. Um at the end of my obedience routine. People stood up and clapped. Yeah. And I think that was the first time I realized, even though they weren't giving me the scores, that my dog actually looked good um and that I could build upon that. Even though I wasn't getting those. And so, what ended up happening at the end of that trial is I met Carla Griffith for the first time. Mhm. And she came up and was talking to me about my dog and she's like, "So, when are you actually going to do something that's going to allow you to get the points that you should get?" And I'm like, "Well, well, I don't know what you mean. I'm just going to keep on doing the same thing I'm doing right now." She goes, "How is it working for you not to say anything?" And I'm thinking, "You know what? She's right. How is it working for me? It really isn't working for me very well." So, what I ended up doing is I came home and I had a a friend of mine that was pretty good with videos at the time. And so, we took a trial and I can't even remember which one it was. It was one of the national events, and we blacked out the handlers, the handlers that actually scored the highest, right? And were placing on the podium. So, we blacked them out, but we showed their dogs' performance. And then we showed my dog's performance, and we took it step by step. This is the sit out of motion. This is the healing. This is the down out of motion. This is the stand out of motion. This is my dog. This is theirs. This is my dog. This is theirs. This is theirs. This is theirs.

Ex- Could you please explain to me how I have the scores I have because I'd really like to improve? And I sent that to the the head of the judges at the time. So, That took some courage cuz Yeah, this is the first time I think I'm telling the story. So, what ended up happening was nobody really said anything to me. But after that, I actually started to get some decent scores, and I heard later, you know, years later, that the head of the judges said, uh, you know, she has a point here. How do we justify this? So, after that, I finally got a break. Um, and I took second place at the North American Championships with that dog, and then things started to happen more and more. So, that was my story. This I I remember these years. It was a It was very difficult to to break through the the little camps and groups, um, and not to not that they were bad groups and whatever, you know, but but there was a time, and I I share this with you also, and not necessarily being, you know, you being a woman, and coming on your own, I I did the same thing. I I was on my own, but I had the alternative breed. Mhm. I had I was the only one with the Malinois that could never make the points, could never make the even the Leerburg videos of you know to where you can compare them. It was very strange for me at that time, too. And yeah, we just kept plugging along and and keep showing and I think that's that's how it's one way I don't know. Like giving up just wasn't an option, right? No, it wasn't an option. It wasn't and I loved it and I'm sure you know you love it. We don't stay with this for any other reason except that we love what we do, we love the dogs and and so we just continue on with it. I mean you you went to put up some unreal scores and and very well deserved consistently like not one competition, not one championship. But over the years with so many dogs. Um I I don't like I recently because of the podcast I was looking at statistics and I mean you you've had from '97 to '99 in each phase numerous times with with different dogs. There is no like you cannot call this anything but a very well thought plan and training that fit every single dog and I know without knowing you your dogs on that level, I know that every dog was different and I know what it takes for a high level trainer to adjust to that dog to make the same accomplishment. Talking about this, what which dog and I know this is a very tricky and probably impossible question to answer, but when you look at all of your dogs, which one did you like and why? In in what areas of training? And with what was difficult? But let's go to difficult part later. So, if you're

asking me like which was my favorite dog to work and probably taught me taught me a lot um on how to to to to change what a dog look like was Escobar. Um so when I got him, he was older and he wasn't extremely motivated. Um a lot of people thought I was crazy when I purchased him. But that dog was just such an awesome animal. He at his age, as soon as he understood like how to shape something or how to offer behavior or how to he was totally 100% in the game. He made training so much fun. Um so that that dog because of that, I absolutely loved him. He had an excellent temperament. He could go anywhere. He could do anything. And that was the one that I ended up going to the Netherlands with. Yeah. And competing there which which I felt was probably one of the best trials I've ever attended. Was that trial at the Netherlands. Um so I loved that dog. Um I think probably well, Iron has been a fantastic dog for me. He's motivated. He again, he's another dog that always wants to do something for you. Mhm. He lacked at the time, it took a long time for him to develop to develop the food drive that Escobar had naturally, right? Arrows didn't come with that same level of food drive. He did over the years, but it didn't just naturally happen like it did with with Esco. Um but what he offered was just a whole 'nother level of absolute physical power. That's one of the things that I loved about competing with him and just living with him because the power that the dog had was incredible. Yeah. And you were able to control it. Yeah. And make 98 98 98 99 97 98 98. All these protection scores were Mhm. insane. Right. Yes. And And that was It's one of the things you love about him. Um and then I had the dog that I'm just finished with now. He was probably my most difficult dog I've ever trained and he was my very last one to really look back at and talk about. So, he he was very very difficult to hold together in all phases all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if if you're to to like which which part is you find most challenging or like kind of generally speaking of of the the three phases in in Schutzhund? For for yourself, like where do you feel like I mean, I know we we all have times where we hit a wall and and it becomes interesting for us because we if we don't hit a wall if we don't get the challenge we kind of plateau. So, we we like that, but there is moments where you kind of at least I have moments where I'm like I really have to dig very deep and almost question, can I? Like is there a particular phase in the sport that you go there or they're pretty level for you? Well, probably the most difficult phase for me is bitework because I don't do

If know, I'm not a helper. Yeah, you're depending on I'm depending upon other people and because I'm depending upon others, depending upon the dog I've had or the the years that we're talking about, I might have a helper around that could do more things more often and then I would have times that I had no one around except once a month or once every 2 months to actually work my dog. So, when I I think Iron's a good example of that one. When I had him, we had just moved to where we live right now. Um My husband had had an accident that year and so I had Iron right after that. So, I was really kind of bound here at home in addition to not having as many things going on and having people come in. And I had started a business here and so I ended up having to do a lot of the foundation work myself with him. And so that was one of those moments that you're talking about where I was by myself and thinking how am I going to get this dog to the level that you want to get to, right? do those things and I thought, you know what? I'm going to have to I'm going to start it on my own. Somehow, some way, I'm going to make this work on my own. And at the time there wasn't like platform training or that wasn't a thing yet that was really big. I had seen a little bit like with friends of mine in agility with touch pads, those kinds of things, but that wasn't something that was really well known or used. And so I thought, well, I'm going to try this. I'm going to build myself a platform, but it's going to be a a pretty big one. I'm going to have rubber on the top of it so he can run to it and not slide. I'm going to teach him by tying him back first to bark. You know, I'm going to get some barks out of him. So, I had a a table that I I used with when I was training with Jean and so I put him up on a table and I did my own barking and getting him going with that. Luckily, he was young, so it was all, you know, just prey and I was just starting all those behaviors for him. Yeah. And he got to doing that, and then I was started him on this little platform, or it wasn't that little, it was big enough that I could actually do something on. Then I taught him to run to it. Then I I started with a ball and told him to bark with the ball. Then I had a sleeve. And that's how I progressed to getting him to bark and guard and and do those things. And it was going pretty well. So, he was doing a decent job with it. But then when I I tried to transfer it to actual helpers, of course, it didn't go as well. You know, the first times he didn't do as much, and and everybody wanted to go back to the same thing that we had done before, where

put him on a line, and I'm like, let's let's not go to that yet. I I understand that that's where we're going to go, but he's going to do on you what he did on me. You just have to give him a bit. Give a little time. Yeah, you got to give him a little time. He's got to understand this, what we're asking him to do. And so, that was a battle just among myself and the helpers that I were using at the time to allow the dog to try and learn what he was doing and then progress from there. So, because of that, I have to teach behaviors that I'm going to use in bite work, in the protection phase, kind of on my own. And then implement it with a helper. So, if my dog doesn't know those behaviors, we're not getting a lot out of having a helper. Mhm. Um so, in order to use my time efficiently, I had to teach those things ahead of time, whether it was back transports or or guarding, outing, coming to heel position with distractions. And so, those things were done by myself and then, you know, added into a program. Do you feel that now, looking back at it then, let's say you start a new dog, would you would you go that route again? Um like I I I've done the same. I think many many of us Mhm. just don't have constant access and that's probably just the nature of the game we're playing. And so we are forced to do things on our own and I I find that there is some really important fundamentals that it's really between me and my dog to teach them that I can do it better than my dogs struggle with few different helpers trying to find the right behaviors. How how do you think about it right now? Would you would you go back again and do a lot of things on your own or or if you have access to a helper, you would just fight with it? No, I think at this stage I would still do a lot on my own. Um you know, I would start those behaviors and then look as my dog matured to put them on a helper. Yeah. Basically, I mean, you you need a helper regardless to at least I do. You you do not because you can put a sleeve on yourself, but you need a helper to at least do some of the grip work, you know, teach them the targeting. I can teach some targeting, but again, I can't put a sleeve on to teach that targeting. Um so there's things like that, those basic things that you need someone for. But there's so many other things that if you've done it before and like you said, you'll get a feel for your own dog that you can start that with your own dog. Yeah. And move along. And probably one of the biggest the biggest gains from doing this on your own is in a training session you have all the time you need. You can repeat it as many times you want

to. And another really big one for me is to be able to tell my dog, this is not going to work. And and you got to trust me on this. If we can have the argument, but eventually you will realize that when I tell you that this is a bad idea, it's not going to work. And I'm not talking about putting some crazy compulsion on the dog. I'm just talking even on a conversational level as saying, dude, this is the wrong way. And I have a dog now that is guidable. And when I put him on a helper, not that he immediately is going to listen, but the chances for me to repeat it three times and he says, oh, I I know where that's going. I I better comply. I better be guidable. I better look up to you. Right. And I think that's one of the most important gains from doing a lot of things on your own. Right. Absolutely. Now when you you're in that position, you know that the things that you've taught your dog already, they may not come right away, but they're going to come a lot faster than trying to teach it on someone else that doesn't know your dog. Um So that I I I think that's why I would still continue to do it that way. The other thing is when you're you're doing these things on your own, you're setting up your environment the way you want your environment set up for success. So, you know, you're going into it at a point like where I am or you are, where we know the things that we want to happen and we know the things that can happen. So, we always want to set it up to get what we want, not what they want. So that we're successful faster and faster and faster. And if we set up our environment that way, we're going to have more success. I try and tell people that train with me that that that whole same thing is like, know what can go wrong. If you if you not just what you're going to teach, but know what can go wrong. Right. So now you're prepared for that. You can tell a dog to sit and either it's going to sit or it wouldn't sit and you shouldn't get surprised either way. You you got to be ready to to take direction because it will be one or the other. Right. Right. But people aren't. Right. It's a it's always a uh oh, it gets tighter like oh, what do I do now? Well, what about dogs? How how um how soon do you like to start dogs? And how did that change over the years? Did it ever change for you? Well, I think if if you have your druthers when to start a dog, it's when it's a puppy. Because puppies are so much fun. You know, they're just so wide open. They want to do everything. They want to shape everything. So that's fun. But it's it to me it's also fun when you get an older dog and you have to like rehab that dog and and show the dog that

there's a different way. Um So I I I I think there's pluses and minuses for all of that. Like with the German Shepherd dog, we have so many physical problems with the breed right now that it becomes more and more difficult to take on a puppy because you don't know what's going to happen with that puppy. Right. So even though puppies are so much fun, they're much more of a gamble than than buying a 15-month-old dog. Even when you teach something to a puppy and I'm not against I I play with puppies also, of course. But there is something different, something more direct when you're teaching an older dog. They they really understand why this has to happen and what the consequences are in a in a more mature way. Mhm. And and I as much as I love playing around with puppies, I really like the um a dog that is mature to to grasp the ideas in a on a different level Mhm. when we train. And And this goes for anything, being tracking, being obedience, whatever it is. It's like a I guess the training goes more around understanding what we're doing, why we're doing it instead of just simply doing it but not grasping the the the reasons behind it when when you have the little puppy. They They just do things, but not necessarily even though you see them paying attention and even they understand the consequences and pros and cons. It's a different level of of how they look at it. So, what age is your favorite age? Gosh, it's very hard. Like right now I have a I have a female that I'm that's about almost a year old and I'm doing I I decided I'm going to do a ring sport with her just because just because, really. But I have a almost 2-year-old male that I'm doing IGP. And I kind of fell behind with him for a little while, but we're doing so like everything is coming along so nice and so quickly and I and I really believe that it's because of his maturity that I can like I can tell him go around the blind this way and he will go the other way and I can tell him it's what happened. And he will self-correct with with the understanding that he made a mistake to where a 6-month-old puppy will change because of reinforcement, but not necessarily I don't think he will comprehend the the importance that I demand that this way, not necessarily because of reinforcement, right? So, I as As as I really as I say love to play puppies, I I feel that um lately, in the last few years, my the the most important part of the training for me it's around anything after 16 months old. Mhm. Um it seems like it just comes much like as I said, I like that understanding of, "Okay, this is the lesson. This is how we can do it." Um I find that easier for me to explain it and not

I don't know if I even make sense. It's just that the the puppy will do exactly the same thing, but I just don't feel that they they really understand how important that is. Right. And and an older dog when when you are in tuned, when you have that kind of you know, bond and and you have the focus and the desire and the dog is beatable, that goes very quickly a long way. And so yeah, I think um but yeah, I I wouldn't let a uh young puppy sit around. That's just impossible, right? Mhm. What was your biggest moment? We We did an I don't think I even if you said it, I missed it, but when did you really realize that okay, I'm I'm good at this. Not not getting the recognition, but when you felt like, "I can do this on on a very high level. I'm good at this." Was that a gradual thing or how did it go? Uh yeah, I think it was gradual. I think maybe the first time that I had an inkling that I could probably do it on a high level was with that dog that I just said Dante Trahan. Um but honestly, even throughout that, like when people talk to me now about in the past and you know, what road I took to get here and it was always for me, whatever dog I had, basically, unless there was something that the dog could not be trained and compete in Schutzhund. Whatever dog I had, I pretty much took and and did something with. And it was always doing it and figuring out how to do it and bringing my dog up to the level, like you just said, that that my dog was going to go out and score high in all three phases, that was interesting to me. So, I never looked at it like some people do, like I have to win a world championship or I have to get to that level. It was always, I'm going to do it and do the best that I can do and then walk onto a field and hopefully I'll do it. Right. That was my approach. After you started to to be successful on on that kind of level on a regular basis. How did you deal How did you deal with the stress and the pressure when you are coming on the field and everybody is silent and you know everybody is on you? Did that How How do you handle that? Because like I have a whole different you know, like for me it's I have my experience, but I'm curious always with a high-level competitors, how they manage that because that's a very I mean, it's probably more critical to be able to handle yourself and the dog and to show it at that moment when everybody is not doing anything but staring you down, trying to break everything. And nitpick. And you know what? And you're on the field and it's your time to show. So, I think that That's a big question, but I think it's a few different parts. So, I think for me where I turned the corner

was I used all of those years of never having success. Right? And then said, "Okay. I'm going to take that and I'm going to make that work for me." And so, when I was warming up with my dogs, I would say, "We're going to show them. We're going to go out there and we are going to show them." And like I would talk to my dog, right? Like you and me, we are going to show them together, right? We are going to do this and we're going to do this the best that we can do this and we are going to wow them. And basically, that's that's the approach that I took. It's like, "Fuck everybody." Sorry to say it. I'm doing this. yeah. No, no, you have to. Right. And so, I would so get into that zone of my dog and I, right? Nothing else. My dog and I, we're going to go out there and we are going to do this. Um And that's basically how I approached it. Um I think I think the hardest trial was Finland. Um and I think if you talk to people who competed at that trial Finland was the one that you won the championship, the world. Yeah, it was. But I think it was the most difficult venue to compete at because from start to walking on a field was I'm going to throw out 45 minutes to an hour. So, you had to report to a tent. And at that tent, you had to be checked and your dog's collar had to be checked. And then you had to wait at the tent. So, you had to put your dog on a down. Oof. Then you had to take your dog and you had to walk to the entrance of a tunnel. And you had to be escorted. And now you had to wait at the entrance of a tunnel and again things are going on all around you. Then you had to be escorted to the bottom of that tunnel. Right? And now you had to wait again. And then you had to walk the entire length of that field to the other end of the field along a glass corridor that was looking inside where people were inside knocking on the windows and and you had to walk down through there and then you came to a concrete waiting area. That was a hill. You had a hill, a very steep hill that you had to go up. And then you had to go up this very steep hill. And now you're you're literally standing on the top of the steep concrete ramp into the stadium with nothing until you're called out there. Wow, yeah. And from start to finish it was a it was a long haul. And now you had to go out and compete and that that was extremely stressful for me because draw night I drew as my my partner on the field um the number one draw for Germany. So, we were now paired together, right? So, that was another big thing because you're goosebumps. I can just envision it. Right. So, the night of the draw I was like, "Oh my god, how could this possibly happen to me?" Right? So,

out we go and you just you have to concentrate. You have to say exactly that and that's what I said there is like, "We're going for broke here, bud. Let's do this." Well, that's that's a part of that training that it's highly underestimated. That preparation, that build-up, ritual, whatever we want to call it before you walk onto the field. Yeah. And and knowing that you have him with you at his max, at his best attention and motivation level. I um I I think a lot of trainers can benefit of of maybe sharing some of your ideas and experience of of this kind of preparation because um really it it it almost doesn't even matter how good you can be at your best day but I think it's far more important to be able to convince your dog that that next step that we going to make and we going to walk onto the field we both already to do our thing. And that takes a a special approach for that specific preparation, right? How how do you What What's your experience and how do you deal with that? First, I'm a person that had my dog ready ahead of time. So, I was not going to a major competition looking to train my dog heavily. By the time I went to a major competition, I was looking to make everything as easy as I could make it for my dog. So, as little gambling as possible. Yep. As little gambling as possible, high levels of reinforcement and anything you did. If If I was competing in Europe, um other people would often look for the hardest tracking sites to go to, you know, push their dogs. I would look for either the easiest or if I went to a hard one, I'd use a lot of food. I would make sure that my track was laid in such a way that my dog could not make a mistake. Because the last thing I want to do is put into his head right now that he is It'll be shaken right before. I want him to go in the same way that he thinks he is a king and he is going to conquer. And so, everything that I do that week before is designed to do that. There's going to be a tremendous amount of reinforcement and obedience. I'm not doing bite work much at all. Um that's done. I'm walking onto the field with the dog that I that I think is ready to do that. So, with that and then with just like you said, you have to get mentally into what you're doing. Like it's got to be everything else is blacked out by the time you're walking onto that field, it's you and your dog. And it's my backyard. So, did it get harder to keep that mental stability as dog after dog and and getting so good or or did you start started to feel more pressure as time goes on with every dog or is it about the same for you? Like as far as how you handle pressure, pure pure pressure to perform. Did it

get Did you get better knowing it or did it become a little bit more stressful? I think it all depended upon the the trial whether it was more stressful or not. And a lot of it was, you know, exactly my faith and my dog's performance. I think now if you you ask me now going forward, I think I I finally reached a spot that I know I probably can't perform at the level that I've performed before. Because I I think it you get to a point where you say, well, for me anyway it was, like that's that's what I did all the time, right? And now I'm at a at a spot in my life that I say, "There's some other things I want to do. I want to travel. I want to go places with my husband. I want to take vacations." Um And with that, then you can't be training all the time. Yeah. And if you're not training all the time and your head isn't there all the time, you're not going to perform the way you did before. It's that simple. So, I think I'm finally at a point that that's the case with me is I've I've like gotten to that level that says, "Okay, I've done it." I don't know that I can keep doing it at that level anymore. But until then, yeah. And I'm I'm sure, you know, the next dog that I do will be similar. Once I start, I'll want him to do the best that he can do and and be involved in it. But I don't think I will be quite as obsessed as I've been the rest of my life in the dogs' performances and what I've done in the past. Yeah. I Yeah, this is a It It It really is very different when when you have one dog and you do well one time, maybe two times. But to put 10, 15 years and to stay on top watching people come in and go, it's very tasking. It's And it's a lot of commitment and sacrifices as you said. It It becomes a a point in time where you really have to say, "Yeah, I I've done it. I know if I put my time again, but why? There is sometimes really like I can just It doesn't mean we don't train. We have fun, but um Yeah, there is other things and uh uh you know what I was thinking? How about like your competition? Did you ever like you're going into a trial, a big championship, and you're like, "Okay, let me see what my competition is?" Or did you try to really keep everything away? You know, like sometimes I I would be like, "Okay, well, there is this person, this person, that dog, that dog." What do I need to do? And kind of play some mind games that sometimes your brain goes off the rail because you just create Right. not not a good situation. That's That's what I was saying about Finland was, you know, I was paired with Dirk. And so now I'm like, "Oh my god." But typically for me, I didn't go and watch the trial beforehand a lot. So,

the day that I was trialing, I would not go early. I would go just before I needed to go on the field. I didn't want to watch anything before me. I didn't want to see what was going on. Um that's how I approached it. Because if I watched, then just then you psych yourself out. Yeah, gets in your head. Yeah, then it gets in your head about everything else, and then you think I Well, I can't do it. I remember watching um some of the big trials during the the the training phase. Um the time that that the teams had on the field. Yeah. And I'd watch people performing during that time. And think, "Oh my god. My dog can never perform at that level." And then I decided after after actually going out and doing better than most of them, that I wasn't going to watch that anymore because it was psyching me out, just like you said. So, instead of watching that, I would try and stay away from that part of it. And just go out and show my dog. Interesting. Yeah, I I've done it both ways, and it always been better to to push it aside and focus on On yourself. and yeah. Yeah, it really. Yeah. But having said that, I kind of like during the training time. Like and I'm talking months before a competition. I Every time I would go to train, it's in my head. It's like yes, we're training, but this is what I'm after. Like my objectives and my goals during the training ahead of time. I always would kind of put pressure on myself that way with uh you know, okay, well, I'm competing against this super trainer, this super dog, this whatever. I need to That's what would at the time make me get up at 5:30 and go tracking, you know? Yeah, absolutely. That's a whole different thing. Those that time leading up to it. Yes. Absolutely. You You're going like you know, you're you're flying on a plane for hours and hours and hours and landing in a foreign country and making your way to wherever that stadium is and you're you're now staying there for a week and you're prepping. Well, the thing that gets you there and gets your dog there is having watched other people perform at those levels and you say, okay, I have to perform at that level or more than that level. I mean, that goes all the way back to my first national I ever saw, which was like in 1980-something, I think. I saw I went to a national event and it was um the Bow Raffs and Gary Hanrahan, Jean England. I mean, these were the people that were competing at the time. And I saw their dogs and thought oh my gosh, I want to do that. Like I want a dog that does that. I want that relationship with a dog. And and from there, you know, all the way through to where you're competing at

high levels where it's seeing the other people that push you forward. The the other performances that you're seeing what that looks like and that's kind of what pushes you to the level you need to go in order to win. What about judging? I know this is a always interesting topic and and I guess my question will be more of who who would be any judges that always come to mind as a judge that had a good eye. I'm sure every judge at certain point will favor somebody. This is us humans. I'm sure every judge sometimes will the brain will just space away, but overall, who who comes to mind for you to say that person as a judge had a the ideal of what we're doing is about. I think years ago Gunther Zeigler did. Mhm. Uh a judge that I think a lot of um that looks at an overall picture of a dog is Doug Deacon. Yeah. Um another one that I that I mentioned earlier was Gunther Lanpher. Um that was someone who I had a great deal of respect for over the years. So there there's been a few and more recent I don't even know some of their names. After a while I was showing under so many people that you kind of everything blurs together, but those were people that stand out in the past as having an impact on me. Yeah, that that's exactly how you put it very well if having impact like like getting seeing them and listening to their critiques and going back home and self-correcting your training because of of that new detail that makes sense all of a sudden, right? Right. I remember sitting next to um Gunter Deegel at a trial. It was one of the the the big events in this country. He was here. I think he was judging maybe bite work and watching and listening to him talk. I had an opportunity to talk with him a little bit while he was watching some of the performances and some of the things that he said about the performances and where he thought the dog should end up, what score he would give the dog Mhm. while the judge on the field was was giving the scores. And that, like you just said, was interesting and it was the things that you kind of remember as to what you want your dog to look like when it goes onto a field. Mhm. Now, we will get to the the new Well, it's not new anymore, but the the Schutzhund club that you formed. But, I I'm very curious. How How did that evolve? Where did you What made you choose that route? How What What happened? Somewhere something changed for you with with the sport. Mhm. Or or was there a fallout with with the community or the sport itself or Cuz that's a big endeavor to take to to to make this big commitment. I mean, I know for myself like way back in in early 2000s starting the Malinois club and being the president

and and you know, that that's not an easy thing to do. Right. And I think it was for me it it was the overall direction that IGP was going in. On a world level. Yeah, we've seen the writing on the wall and we're still seeing it, right? It's still transpiring and moving forward. And at the time when I finally made my decision, I happened to be at a national um at a board meeting in USCA. And and there was no doubt in my mind where we were heading. Like stick hits were being talked about and the board at that time believed that stick hits would always remain in the trial. And my belief was that's not true. We see what's happening in Europe. Stick hits are going to be abolished from our sport. We see the direction that this is going, right? We know that prong collars are forbidden. We know that e-collars are forbidden. We know that there's so many restrictions on how we train our dogs. Now we know that our tests are going to be um the bar is going to be lowered across the board. We're not going to stress our dogs anymore. We see the writing on the wall right now. I guarantee you the next thing we're going to hear is jumps are going to be lowered or we're going to put something soft on top of the jump because because our dogs can't jump anymore. That's basically why. They can come up with anything they want to come up with, but our dogs can't jump. So we're going to see that happen. And so that's been what's occurring and it's going to be the demise of the sport. We're not taking the forefront on trying to educate people. We're not like your your actual videos are starting to do that where you're you're actually having that conversation. But USCA was the premier organization in this country and they had an opportunity to get ahead of this. Yeah. They could have gone out there and promoted our sport and promoted our dogs and and shown the link between our dogs and search teams. 9/11, what whatever you want to make that connection to and and the military. were many missed opportunities. You're so right. We've missed them all, right? We have not done anything and now we [ __ ] and complain. You go on to the forums, everyone [ __ ] and complains about everything, right? But they don't take a stand and do anything. So, I was finally after that meeting where I could see the writing on the wall, where it was going to happen, stick it sword going to go away, that I said, "You know what? I can't go forward with this anymore." Because the bottom line for me has always been the dogs. Right? The dogs. And I see the whole thing. Form and structure go together, right? Our structure and function go together. So, I see that

whole thing breaking down right now. I see that we're not going to stress our dogs anymore, that we're not going to have a test that is viable, that's going to last any length of time. Um and I said, "I can't do this anymore. I can't be a part of something that I don't believe in." So, because of that, I had a number of people for probably 2 years that had been trying to get me to do something like this, to kind of be a face of an organization. And I finally said, "Okay, I will do it. I will break from the hierarchy and I will try to do something else." And you know, I hear things too and and people seem to think that that was an easy decision. That was not an easy decision for me to do. USCA Schutzhund the WUSV those things were my world for years and years and years. And when you finally say "You know what? I'm going to try a different path." That's a very difficult move. Yeah, I I I I I'm sure I like I totally get it then and I mean hats off for for making it happen. And and the more we see as you saying the more we seeing where the sport is evolving where where where everything is heading in Europe. Dog training the way we know it is doomed. Um breeding selection um just the the everything becomes very problematic and questionable from from this year on. Yes. Um So, I don't know. I I think your club has a big chance at least in this place right now to to gain more popularity and hopefully hopefully it does. And even if it doesn't have to be you know take over or replace but allowing people dog trainers to you know it I I I feel that it's compatible enough that you can play in both areas. Yeah, if you want to. But with understanding that the one is actually what the the whole purpose the whole objective of Schutzhund was back in the '80s, '90s and and well, I guess it kind of stops pretty much In 2000s. We already start to see the changes that we're talking about. Um and and it becomes unstoppable and I mean, we know that in Europe right now, they're trying to to reverse and and do something on one hand, but on the other hand, they they're still following that narrative of um of this is not a problem. We don't need that. We can take the stick away. We can make it easier. Um And if we always think to please everybody, then we miss what we do and why we do it. And we Like like where I'm going with this is I know at least Europeans right now are putting quite the effort to educate. But it's very hard to educate once you have laws that you cannot use any form of aversive in your training, how how where do you educate? And when we start to It's very dishonest conversation that they have to have between themselves.

And it affects the training. It affects the breeding. They're searching for solutions and I hope that they will get them. But it's kind of like the saying that the train left the station already. Like it really left the station. The horse is out of the barn and you're not going to change that now. Right. Yeah, it's it's too little, too late. That momentum is going forward and so fast now that that's going to be a really hard tide to change. Um And especially we You know, I hear people who I've known for years right, that were such a proponent of Schutzhund IGP as as a a breed test for dogs, right? For working dogs. Now saying things like, "Oh, well, the stick hit doesn't really mean anything." Right. Or And I'm thinking, "What are you saying? Seriously, are you seriously going to say that now? You really believe that that we're going to take out stick hits. We're going to take out back transport, real attacks. We're going to take out real long bites with pressure. We're going to take And then what are we left with? And and at what point, I guess this is my a question that I ask myself. Like at what point are you kidding yourself participating in a world championship? Like, what are you participating in? Like there there's a there's a line that's got to be there that says you're no longer participating with a German Shepherd dog or a Malinois or because you know what? A lab could do it. Right. retriever could do it. And that's what we're going to see. We're going to start to see golden retrievers, labs, different breeds come in and do our sport. And then what are we going to tell ourselves? Are we seriously going to tell ourselves we have the same dogs that we used to because we're not going to have it. We're not going to have that anymore. We know through natural selection of anything that when when things change, animals change. So, if I have my hunting dogs that for generations have been able to hunt on birds, and now they can only use a ball. There's only so many generations that are going to pass before that innate behavior to go after a bird is gone. Correct. Right. We're heading down that road. And And the training the training the like the training methods because when you make a dog a little bit frustrated a little bit angry expressing some form of dominance insisting on his ways it calls for a very smart training and I think um changing the game uh will allow positive reinforcement only training to be very successful. And somebody can say, "Well see positive reinforcement training works ultimately just as good if not better than anything else. But we changed the game to make it work. Exactly. It would be much interesting

more interesting for us to see "No, let's make the dog a little bit stomp his foot and say, 'No, no, that's what I want to do. My blood's boiling right now. I I'm against that guy right now.'" Making that dog listen versus a dog that is playing a a polite game as I said a golden retriever that will do. Of course the training will change. But how is that productive? I I really don't get it. How is it productive as a breed standard? It is not. That true. And how many dogs you can have like you know military all around the world police you know they try to have their own breeding programs, but no matter how many breeding programs are available, they still have to rely on the big gene pool and selection from sport trainers and breeders. It just not visible. It's not possible to have, you know, Lackland Air Force Base. They They can produce so many dogs. The the pool they work with is very small. You I I wish that everybody understand that we need each other. And it's an important, like, the the education that we're missing explaining why this is why why even dogs like to do this. You know, I mean, we have all of our But all dogs, they're 14, 15 years old, three-legged, half blind, can't hear, but they see a sleeve or they smell it and they're like, "Oh, I'm going to do this." And they're crawling to the sleeve. This is from It comes from a very special place. And it seems like we're taking it away. So, do you Do you work with I mean, have you thought of any more of a a global picture of of the Uh because I I think that there will be enough interest, especially now, of the what Schutzhund used to be. And for those people that are new to the sport, and you mean, even even if you started 10 years ago, you're new to the sport. Even if you started 20 years ago, you're kind of new because you don't know the attack out of the blind in level one. Mhm. That you have. And I I love like like the that you brought this critical parts of the the old program. Because that was a that was a very difficult bite that you cannot prepare a dog for. Of course, now the show dogs, they all get a bite out of the blind, but it that's not the bite we're talking about. That's not what we do. No. And and right there and then we we very quickly can expose and select a dog. Okay, well, that dog he should rather do something else. But that dog likes to do that, he should stay in the program. It was a brilliant exercise. And I'm so glad that you have that in in in your program that you brought it back. Right. And that's one of the reasons we brought it back. And along with it now,

we also have that there has to be control in healing beforehand. So, we're trying to bring both parts of that back so that there's there's also Well, I shouldn't say back, but there's the the attack out of the blind, but there's also showing that there's a lot more control that is needed at that level. So, the the dog really has to rise to the occasion for the AS1. And then the long bite. You you you brought that back in. The real long bite. It's not a long hard bite. or run away, turn around, come back. Yeah. Yes. Again change her. How How did somebody decide to change this? I I don't get it. And again, we have a call off and people ask questions about that. Well, it's not Schutzhund, why do you do a call off? We do a call off because in today's society, today's world, if you're going to send your dog on a bite, you should be able to call your dog back from that bite. And the dog should be able to go whether it's a callback and a send at the same speed. I mean, you're looking at all of that. You want the dog that whether because we flip a coin, so you never know which is which. You don't know if you're going to have the callback first or the long bite first. So, the dog needs to be able to go for the highest score at the same speed on both of those those exercises. That's a a very a standard exercise in the ring sports. Mhm. Uh all all of the ring sports have it. But, that would be probably the one um in my opinion, problematic exercise with somebody that would like to play both games. They may look at others uh uh um a difficult exercise to to that can confuse the dogs or something that they will They have to pay the price, right? Yeah, but their game has to change then. There's a point that you say, then up your training. Right. We're not looking to please every single person. But, as you said before, if you look to please every single person, you're never moving ahead in doing anything. Um yeah, does it to especially with a trained dog that's that's done a lot of long bites and never had to be called back. That's a difficult thing to train. Because for 3 years, they may have done long bites and never had to come back. Now, you have to teach that. But again, it's teachable. It's absolutely 100%. Yeah. I I again, like all all ring sports have this and they've had it for hundreds of years and Right. when you know, the dog always goes full speed and Right. either or and it's totally cool. Mhm. Have you been approached by anybody from Europe maybe to collaborate or or like show any interest in what you do here? We've had some questions. Um but we are having Helmut Raiser in this weekend. He's coming in to do a workshop for our judges.

Um because Beautiful. our um judging kind of parallels their judging, right? So, because of that, he's going to go over all of his judging ability, techniques, his his colors, his everything that he does is going to be um gone over with all of our judges to educate them more in their explanation and what they're looking at. I love that. Yeah. I mean, I I I had him I think it was January or something this year. And um we we just did a tracking thing, but of course, we know each other forever. We talked dogs and he did make a a very nice presentation for for judges. So, I I'm sure it's going to be phenomenal and you hopefully don't forget and you record that for for your judges program because it's definitely something to have in your library, no question. Right. Um and yeah, I mean, the RS RSV 2000 I don't know. I I I I really feel that there is opportunity on a global level for people to do something outside the norm of this is what IGP is and this is what the sport is evolving to. I think there is people that appreciate the the program the the old program and the old traits and and I I would say our training has evolved so much that you know, when when we have somebody that is all force-free trainer that will say, "Well, I'm a crossover trainer. I used to use prong collars and choke chains." And I'm like, "When? In 1983? You have no idea what we can do today. Right. You will not be able to separate which dog is trained how on a train on a competition field because of the level of training because we everything is dramatically different and improved. It's a much clearer dog-friendly way to train. So So, whenever that argument comes of, "Well, this protection sports, they always have these kind of barbaric ways of training." And it's like, "I'm sure there is somewhere. But that's is This is not what the best trainers do right now." Right. Well, there's it's a very different intelligent training that that makes things much easier. Right. And And yeah, I I wish that the somehow there is interest and and hopefully maybe you have that conversation. I'm sure you're going to have that conversation Helmut and maybe maybe it goes somewhere. Yeah, if we can come to some kind of understanding, that would be wonderful. I I really like I know he he's for sure somebody that always you know, he had his own opinion on on on things and sometimes he's very direct and people like it and people don't like it. But the more the sport is changing the more people start to see that there is a reason why we are trying to protect

and preserve the the the program and the dog training that we have. How often do you have like what do what is it right now? Um how long it's been? It's more than a couple of years for sure, right? We started right around the time of the pandemic. Okay. We started that year and so things got off to a slow start. We had just started out and then the pandemic hit and so we're just back moving forward again. Are you planning like you have I mean I know because of Greg cuz you know, one week he's with you, one week he's here. So I I get a little bit but uh um what do you have as far as what is the plan of like hosting nationals and how how is how do you see it growing from here? So we had a national event last year. Mhm. And we ended up with 57 entries which Wow. Yeah, which was way more than we anticipated. Um so that went well. We're having another nationals this year. Uh we do open it up to our BTs. So because of our environmental testing, um people can come and do just the environmental test or the entire VT, the behavioral and the environmental test? Mhm. Together. So, we have that as part of our nationals. Um and then we have our AS 1s, 2s, 3s, and then we have a protection tournament. So, we'll be doing it again this November. And we'll just start We're going to just start advertising that now. is the protection tournament? Strictly focusing on the protection aspect or or what? So, it is, but it's basically This year we're still talking about exactly all of the exercises that are going to be in it. Mhm. Um but it will encompass the important aspects of AS an AS3 title. So, what we're going to have is like last year was an attack out of the blind. There was an escape bite. There was a back transport. I'm not sure all of the parts that we're going to have in it yet this year. Um and then last year on top of the long bite and the call off, there was a muzzle attack. Um so, this year there's going to be a couple of other things, I believe. I think there's going to be a carjack, um probably a muzzle attack again. And then those are bonus points. So, if you choose not to do those, you can still enter the protection tournament, but if you choose to do the extras, they're bonus point exercises that you will be able to achieve extra points. Okay. And that's you have to have an AS1 to enter. But if you have an AS1, you can enter in the protection tournament and there's money prizes. And there is money prizes. I like that, too. Mhm. Yes. Now, since we're talking about carjacking scenarios and muzzle and um tell me I know that um everything kind of you you collaborated with Jerry Bradshaw and the the PSA group. Um

how how did that grow? How how did that collaboration happen? So, we both had some common friends and we were put in touch with each other. He was looking to expand his organization some. We were looking to to start this organization. And so, we contacted Jerry. We got together and he welcomed us. I mean, he is PSA has been fantastic to us. So, we are under their umbrella. But, we are our own entity. So, they kind of give us the framework. We are part of their organization, yet separate. Mhm. And that's how we maintain it even today. So, if you you let's say for instance, let's say you were going to get a scorebook, you would be getting a scorebook PSAAS. You'd have to sign up under PSA and AAS. And so, a PSA member could come and enter for AAS because we would have a scorebook that would be used. W- where do you see it going? Do Are you or maybe not yet or or never, but are you looking into kind of making it more of a one thing or still keeping because there's when you look at the program, they're still radically different, right? we're we're planning on keeping it different. Okay. We will remain a sleeve sport. We will remain kind of true to that entity and they'll remain PSA the way they've done it before. We were We're just like a subsidy of them. Yeah, no. I mean, that's that makes sense, especially when you starting a club from scratch. Mhm. That that's No. a huge task. That's just huge huge We needed their infrastructure. Which they provided. So, they provided that infrastructure for us and it was then much easier to take off and go in our own direction because of their willingness to do that with us. And as far as your judges, how are you what the what the like how how would somebody become a judge? Well, right now I am the director of judges and because we've been so small to date it's been once you've achieved an recently it's been once you achieved an AS1 then if you wanted to become a judge, you would contact me. Mhm. You would have to judge with with another judge at first and right now you'd have to like if it was this year, you'd have to attend this seminar that we are providing with Helmut. Mhm. And then if everything looked good and you had an understanding of our judging, then you could become a judge. Going forward, of course, that will start to get they'll be it'll be more difficult. You'll have to have more than just one time. But in the beginning, you have to start somewhere. What about transitioning like like an IGP judge right now? Well, we have IGP judges. We have So, Carla Griffith is a judge. She's an IGP judge. We have people that have been in the sport. So, even if they hadn't had

an AS1 when they started, they all had IGP titles. So, like let's think of the protection when you have is it still 100 points? Or or it's a different scoring. It is 100 points. So, how did you divide like like for level three? How how did you divide the points because you have a call out? Um you have few exercises that you have to balance out the points. How how how did you break them down? Right. So, we looked at that and we just came up with breakdowns that made sense to us along the way. Um if you So, the crux of it is if you do a call off, let's say, and your dog bites at the end of the field, Just to interrupt you, you know why I'm asking? I'm I'm like very seriously thinking of of doing this with my dog, you know? Okay. I'll send you a copy of everything. Yeah. And I'm not saying I'm I'm not saying I will just stop IGP, but I see that it will challenge my training as it used to, you know? So, so I'm you know, almost selfishly asking some questions here that I'm sure many other people want to know. Yeah, we would love to have you. But so, that was the crux of that. So, because we felt it was so important with the with the call off, if you send your dog and your dog actually bites at the end of the field, then you fail. Let's say your dog gets almost to the helper, but stops, doesn't bite, and comes back, you're going to pass, but you're just not going to get all of your points. So, so like in protection, again, like thinking of ring sports, you can have a dog that doesn't like totally fails uh attack exercise, but stays in the program and even can win the championship. I'm assuming in your case if if the dog is backed off or or something, it it's DQ'd or or how does that go? Yeah, you're you're DQ'd. Game over, yeah. Yeah, game over. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Okay, Debbie, I know you got to go. I like I feel bad for for the boy there needs to You need to take care of it. It was a a very good conversation and I'm glad to to be able to talk to you. I have your trophy when I won the USCA championship, the big German Shepherd head, you know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, good. Oh, it's on my It's like on the center of my trophies. I always think of you. of all of those. Yeah. I know. I know. And I got a at that time this one super fancy crate also, the mesh portable ones. Mhm, right. Um Oh, yeah. So, I'll be looking forward to we'll be talking more about the the program and hopefully that conversation uh brings some interest to you and and you know, I think it deserves the attention of of serious dog trainers to at least get exposed to to what you guys do. Uh I'm going to get some um we'll put on the links everything and and so so people know how to catch up

with you. Yeah, that would be great. And like where you were just heading with it, just to be brief, we really are trying to make our entire protection routine much more of a test for the dog than has been or is the direction that it's going right now. So, there's a lot of voice pressure, there's there's stick hits, there's pressure across the board. People that were at the AS Nationals last year, I think had an opportunity to see that. Yeah, that's that's what to me at least is attractive because when somebody says, "Well, no, my dog is a very good dog." Well, it cannot be very good dog unless it's tested properly uh under certain circumstances. But, maybe we do this one more time. I think we have a lot more to talk about. So, thank you. Thank you for this one. And and yeah, what I I'm sure we're going to do this again, Debbie. All right. Thank you so much, Ivan. Take care. Mhm.