에피소드 8: Markus Neutz

You know, people, you were sitting out at the bench, like in a soccer game and waiting. The training director tells you, you can go in. You know? So, you were very happy. You know? Like the golden age of dog sports, probably, really. Not for the dogs, but for us. Not for the dogs, true. Yeah. So, and so how it started, so I had different dogs to train from other people. And then at the end, I got my first own dog, German Shepherd. I choose a litter, but there were not enough males. So, I take another one. Yeah. And the problem was this dog did not bite at all. So, I go back and then it started. Different dogs. And then... What were the dogs at that time? What were the kind of the popular breeds people would have? Was it still... I mean, mainly German Shepherd. Still German Shepherd, right? Yes. I mean, this was 1986, 1985. Yeah. And then, I mean, this was the time when the first Malinois showed up maybe three, four years later. Right, right, right. I think... You know what's interesting? How was... Because obviously, I... I... At that time, I was on the other side of the Berlin Wall. So, I... All I knew was the East German, German Shepherds and some of the Russian, which they call them the... Oh, I can't even think of the name. Some, some like, um, Northeast Shepherd dog or something. Mm-hmm. But, how... Like, when, when, when the countries was split at that time and you were already training. Yeah. So, there was... Like, what did you know about the dogs in East Germany, for example? Very little. Very little. Yeah. I mean, this was a little bit disappointing thing for us, you know, because when the border opened, so many German Shepherd owners said, oh, now we have, you know, this... Choices. ...East bloodline German Shepherds. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, at the end, I think the most of them disappointed in sport. So, when I... I mean, I'm still not the German Shepherd guy anymore, but I'm still good in bloodlines. Yeah. And, I don't think there is... Maybe there's one famous, Lord Glysterick, this is this line who still... You can still find now in actual working dog lines, but I think the most disappeared. The dogs were just a little bit different. No. So, they were... But, probably, was it only the type of dogs, or was it also... I mean, the training must be different, too. I remember from... Because I started with totally like East European style of military training, you know? Yeah. And then, when I moved to Belgium, I started to get a little bit of the feel of... And, I'm sure at that time, everywhere training started to get better and better, but...

Still, you were way, way more tradition and way more advanced compared to East Germany. Actually, I really don't know much about the former East German dog training tradition. I know some handlers. I know handlers, they escaped before, you know? Right. And, there were some good dog trainers. And, I know dog trainers now who are already trained in this time now. I don't think there was so much difference. It was a different system, but... Yeah. Maybe the population was too close for this breed in the East part. Like, what my breed I have now, I have now a giant schnauzer. I mean, they came out of this DDR, East German bloodlines, you know? So, my breeder from my dog, from Hatzpachtal, is a very famous giant schnauzer breeder. He told me a little bit about how he started again. The schnauzer in the West German part were totally down. They were just show dogs at the end. Show dogs. And, he started to kind of smuggle dogs out of the East German part breeding dogs. And, this is how he started his worldwide famous schnauzer breeding program. And, I think we earned a lot with the schnauzers. And, for sure, in the first years, we earned a lot with the Erdl Terriers, because they were Erdl Terriers. There were a lot of them on the big competition you saw, and they were really strong and nasty dogs. And, I'm not 100% sure, but I think with the German Shepherds, we had no profit of them. You know, it's like, yeah. They are almost... Very interesting, this, because on the other side, like, looking back from Eastern Europe, we would always be like, wow, the West type of Shepherd. And, the moment it opened, the borders, I think everybody, like, I wish they kept some of the lines. Just because it's a... I mean, not keep them isolated, but make some breedings, but still maintain some type. And, I think they, like East Germans, just totally went and completely took the West. And, because it was the cool thing to do. And, maybe they were the better dogs. I don't, I really don't know at that moment. Maybe it was just a big desire, you know. Like, I mean, it's not a joke. They had this car, this Trabant, and now they can buy a Mercedes or BMW. Maybe this was the problem that they said, okay, now I have the chance to buy what I want. Right, right, right. Yeah, that's what happened. What about the Rottweilers? I mean, they were, at least, I know when I went to Belgium, and then very early on in the States, there were some, I mean, there were some good Rottweilers, not, yeah, I mean, there's some exceptions, right, always. But, there was a community that was into working Rottweilers. And, somehow that also.

So, what I see from my point of view, you know, it's like, I was in Rottweilers, not personally, but with my friend and my helper. He was a good breeder of good Rottweilers. And at this time, but this is now 15 years back, 10 years back, at least, more. But I think what they do now in Germany, or maybe in whole Europe, they almost follow for me the way of the German Shepherds. Because the Rottweiler, I remember, but I was never very deep in, you know, there were littles, there was one champion of show and one champion of work in the same litter. Mm. You know, not champion, but you know. Of course, of course. And, but, and, and, so, like my friend, he had this Rottweiler kennel and he had, his starting female was more out of, what I think, out of the working type, small female. But she produced at least two or three club seeker winners. So, you know, this is the highest show level for the Rottweilers. And on the other side, in the littles, always were some very good dogs you can use for sport. So, the same litter, both types was possible. Right, right, right. And now I, what I see, what I think, I'm not sure if it's right, I think they switch and separate a little bit more. You know, the one type just for the show, exhibition, they do their trials. And there are some kennels in Germany I know, they do a lot of advertisement for their working Rottweilers. But they, yeah, they don't, for me, they don't even look like a Rottweiler anymore, you know. They are a little bit smaller. They, for sure, they have good speed and all that, but they are not the breed what I know. And I think, I'm not sure, but I think they separate this, you know, in these two lines, year by year. Maybe that's a problem for the breed, for me, for the working dog or police dog breed at all, the separation of things, you know. Yeah, so, since we mentioned police, how did that, how did you end up deciding to go there? And was it straight dog thing or was it? Oh, no, it was actually, after I finished school, I did not know what to do. So I started with the army. And then after army, I still was not sure what to do. And I think, okay, police, because from the first day they pay you good money. That's maybe the job to do. But then when I decided to join police, I was sure I wanted to go to the K9 unit. So after, we have this different system. We have the two, two and a half years education for police. And then I went out on a normal police station. And after my minimum time, I have to stay there. I start to apply for K9 and then very fast, very easy. I went to the K9 unit.

Is that a, I mean, how is the K9 considered as far as, like I know in the States, to be in the K9 unit, people kind of like to join the units. I mean, you have to have some passion for dogs, of course, otherwise there is no way you would like. I mean, for sure you don't go to the K9 if you don't like dogs. Right. I mean, it changed like in dog training. The passion for training is probably not so high anymore. The passion for dogs is still there. No, people, the training side. Like, like when I started, we have, we had still this, this, this competition, the international German police championship, which was together with the German shepherd nationals. Yes. Yes. Yeah. We even did here in the States in the, in the nineties. And it was very big in Germany. So we had on the one side, we had a hundred Schutzhund at this time, dogs for the German national championship. On the other side, we had 80, 90, 100 police dogs. So this is, and it was called international. So there were also people from us taking part in. And so it was at this time, I think a very interesting thing. The protection was different. There were totally different exercises. Police had three helpers. You had the long, not the attack on, on the front, the long, long escape and all this stuff, the long hold and bark. And there was a bite on a full body suit. No, no, two sleeves, two sleeves was always two sleeves, but it was a interesting protection. So at this time in this national championship, there was the obedience field were around somewhere. And in the main field, which was usually a professional soccer stadium, there was protection all the day long. So there were six dogs police, six dogs Schutze, six dogs police. So it was nice to watch. And at this time, like I'm sure 50% of police officers did dog sport private. They were in a club, you know, they train the dogs private. And right now, when I watch in my department, I'm working right now, we have 45, 45 police officers with dogs. And there are two in a dog training club at all. So this changed. And then, and I think the first step was that the different governments from the different states, police is a state thing in Germany, decided it's too expensive to send these police officers to this national championship. Because when I was there, no matter as a handler or as a helper or track layer, this was work time. I get paid for it, you know. Yes, of course. And so at this time, the financial situation in Germany was maybe not the best. So the government try, where can I save money? And they really easily found out, okay, it's easy to save money with the canine units.

And just let them don't do their sports anymore. And from this time, the training level get a little bit, I will not say worse, but different. There were many dogs doing both sport and patrol or police work. And now it's almost gone. So back to the, so when you did like, let's say a couple of years or whatever, it's just an officer without the dog, then what's the process from there? Was there a school or like, how do you go about becoming a canine? Okay, I take my, I got my first canine dog. I bought him private. I went to, so this was for me the decision until now I had German Shepherds and I had also the woman beside. Yeah. And then the Malinois came up. Like Manfred Motz is famous. He was a, what was his name? Döpödoartok. He was one of the first on the national champion. And the, like this year the DVG, at this time it was the DHV. And then the Americans came, the training group from Gottfried Dilday. Yes. I think Igor from Löwenfeld was the name and all, you know, so all these Malinois came up and more. That's funny. I actually have Igor in somewhere back in my minds too. So, okay. I said, okay, my next dog will be a Malinois. Then it was clear. I can go to the canine unit. Okay. So I thought, okay, I buy me a dog. No, no, cool. I mean, that's nice actually that you actually have the opportunity to. Yes. And so I called Peter Engel, breeder of Löwenfelds. Yeah. And asked him if he can get me a dog, you know, so I said, yeah. So what did you have at the moment at that time? What? A Doberman? A Shepherd. I quit with Doberman. The last Doberman I had, he had dysplasia at the hips. Mm-hmm. So I made, I titled him, I think, to two, but I thought, okay, it's not, you know, I cannot train a dog which is ill, so I gave him as a pet dog to a friend. Yeah. Yeah. And then I went to the Netherlands and with Peter Engel and the first dog I get was a, you know, now they call them Dutchie X-Mechelar. It was a Malina with stripes. Yes. And he was good, but he felt wet, so X-Ray was not good. I took him back and then, yes, I got a mix. He had the color of a, almost like a Doberman, a Rottweiler, and the body of Malinois. He was PH1 titled, with very low points, no out, no barking, nothing. Of course. And the Netherlands showed me the crazy training they did at this time and I have to train like this and the dog is dangerous. Yeah, okay. I take him. So I take him and trained him from the first day for Schutzund. And then after three months I went, I was a canine handler then, so the government took him over, they paid me and I make my canine courses and at the side I trained him for Schutzund

and I made, I brought him to the nationals one year later. Nice. So from nothing I do the police dog stuff. Right. And at this time it was good because when you did this police dog trial for the work, this was like a Schutzund 2 trial. So I skipped. So you can actually go to the. I skipped one, BH, one, two and start with three. So I made my first three and then I made the regionals. Or I start with the local regional, then the big regional and then the nationals. So could this get reversed? Could like somebody that's not in the police, like a civil, have a dog and go and get a police title or no? No. No. But you can go the other way. Yes. This was, there was a time, there was it in the rule book, in the Schutzund rule book. And then they take it out. But like my next dog, my next police dog I had, I did the same, even if it was not the rule book anymore, but nobody cared about, you know. Right. It was at this time, it was, it was from the German Shepherd Club. They had this system where you get these medals, you know, you make an I-Chip, a Schutzund 1, you get a medal, you make, they had like, you know, a walk, a trail, 20 kilometers, you get another medal. This was very fancy and famous at this time. I think this still is, it happens. Maybe not so much like it happens. And so they said, okay, the, the, so we, we had the DPO 1 and the DPO 2 and the DPO, and the WPO. And so what is the DPO stand for? What do you? DPO means Deutsche Polizeiordnung. This means German police. Working, whatever. Yeah. And so they said the DPO 1 is like the Schutzund 1, the DPO 2 is like the Schutzund 2 and the WPO is like the Schutzund 3. This is how they compared it. Gotcha. Yeah. I think this is what was like in the States. I think it was the double, the, the last one. WPO. This was the, there were. So that was the highest level, I guess, or something. WPO means Wettkampf and Wettkampf means competition. This was the level from the international championships and all. This was just a competition qualification or competition trial. Yeah. Yeah. The DPO 1 you need for, to go with your dog on the street. And so from there, what? You, you, you got into the unit, but now you are, I mean, now, now, now, now, now, you're in a completely different position. So we're going to get there, but. I worked on the street with this dog, but just for one and a half year. I trained him for patrol and narcotics work. And then we have this system in Germany. We have a police dog school. It's also all police officers. So I go there. Then my job was just to train police dogs.

So it's from Monday to Friday, police dogs, police dogs, police dogs, like training courses, eight weeks, 10 weeks, 11 weeks, all the different stuff. Patrol work, narcotics, explosive detection, cadaver, all this stuff. And this is what I did then. I don't know, maybe 10 or 12 years. Just trained these dogs. I had a police dog. The dogs are also the handlers. Dogs and handlers. And the handlers. And then I went back to patrol work again. And then I did a few years patrol work with two different dogs. And then my, the chief of my department at this time asked me if I don't want to do, we never had this before, like a head trainer for the department I'm in. And that's what I do right now. I'm head trainer for my department. We have this 45 dogs I said at the beginning. Yeah. And I, I buy the new dogs for the beginners or the new dogs for handlers. They are already there. I prepare them. I train them. Then out of my department, they go to this police dog school and make their courses, what they need for going on the street, a certification. They come back and then we go on in training with them. That's my job I do right now. That's pretty cool. And as a side job, I have my police dog and it's still, I have still a police dog, but now it's a Jack Russell. Yes. And because I have no patrol work to do, I just need a detection dog. So I took a Jack Russell because my wife, Maria, she likes to breed. So I said, okay, it's easy to take a small dog. Yeah. I'm sure we're going to show some on the podcast. We're going to pull out some. Yes. Because it's amazing what the little thing does. Now I trained her as an arson dog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's how you said that you do select the dogs. Where do you go? How do you select the dogs for the department? Or what, do you travel around Europe or is it mostly breeders or any option you think of? I mean, because I'm still in the sport and training, sometimes people just offer me a dog, you know, which is not good enough for them. Oh, but these are probably some fine dogs for what you need. Yes. For me, I really prefer to buy dogs like this. Yeah. Because if not, we have to go to the dealers. Yes. And the German police does not pay good money. So we get third or fourth choice. And we really, the most dogs... That's so funny that you say, because I feel like everybody gets the third and fourth choice. I don't, or maybe they just don't get good dogs, the dealers. There are some, yeah. I mean, out of 50, if you have one or two or three good ones, that's not... Yeah, probably. But I mean, the good dog, the dealers, they will not pay good money.

A good dog will ever cost good money, you know, but... Right. And probably what I think is happening, even the dealers, when they get your hands on a really good dog, they end up selling it to somebody in sport because they end up paying more money, especially like in the States or something. But right now, you know, when I started, when I bought my dog, it was this PH1 titled, the KNPV stuff. I paid, I don't know. At this time, for sure, no 3,000 marks at this time. Less, for sure. I don't know. And now the Netherlands, which is a big market for police dogs, I'm sure you cannot buy a police dog for less than... PH1 dog, titled dog, less than 6,000, 7,000 euros, 100% not. Yeah, for sure. They sell a lot. No, no. So, and the German police pays maximum 2,500, maybe 3,000 euros. And now there is a brand new market, like the Netherlands was a very big market. And then what I always preferred, I did never prefer the Netherlands dogs. They are, we had too much problems with them in several things I prefer. I bought many dogs from a good friend from the German Malina Club, from Volker. He imported nice French ring dogs with good foundation, easy to handle, easy for beginners. But even this is not possible anymore. What we really have to buy now is, there is a big market, I think, in the former Czechoslovakia, so Czech Republic and Slovakia. And they are not breeders like we are breeders or you are breeders with pedigree. They just breed for police, you know. They breed with whatever, German Shepherd, Malinois and Mix. And what's good enough, they prepare a little bit and then they sell it to police. You know, from what I'm thinking, we should not support this. But because if you see these dogs, you see, okay, some of them, they really, they don't know their name. You know, you see, they never have social contact with humans. So it's for sure not the best start in the life the dogs had. But we have no other chance if we, you know, like now, like when I come back from here, when I have to go back to work. First of March, we get six new dog handlers. So I have to buy the next three, four weeks, six dogs. That's not so easy. Right. So at the end, I have to go to these dealers. So when you go, what do you look? What is like, like, you know, like top three priorities when you look at the dog and you think of your people and going back to the department? Top one is I look the handle, you know, that's. What kind of dog can work with you? Yes. And then top two. And that's not the best thing, but I buy a dog if I think the handler can handle it. Right. Right. And so what I try to.

So then you already have the handlers in mind when you go to. Handlers come to our station, to our department and they are already there. You know, they don't come and have the dog on the first day. They come and they usually they have interest. Maybe they come a few months before and do like a hospitation and watch. And so you get them now. And then it's so different now. So the city I work is Stuttgart. It's a for Germany. It's a bigger city. The rents are crazy high in this area. So it's not easy to get an apartment where dogs are allowed, you know, so it starts like this. And when I started the most people, they had a house and they had a garden. So it was easy for them. So it was easy for them. But now we have people. We had one officer. He lived in the 16th floor of an apartment building. He wants to be a dog handler. You know, and I told him this might be difficult for you. But, you know, he was OK, I will do. I will do. And he stopped after one day he had a dog. So, yes. So I really have to check our handlers. And then what I really try to find. Is there an option also to keep the dogs in at the department or they go home? Well, all dogs go home. No, there's no option. They have to go home. That's actually very cool. That's good. I mean, it's not good for a dog to stay in a cattle building and just take them out for a dog. Just take them out for work. Yes. So this changed a lot. You know, now we have to find dogs who are able to live in a flat to, you know. Makes, yeah. I don't know. Go with the train to work, whatever. So that's changed a lot. Yeah, that makes it harder. Like normally you would think, oh yeah, this dog is super mean. He's going to tag anybody that walks behind or whatever. But then he doesn't go home. He stays in a kennel and then they pick him up. They put him in a car. Hopefully the door doesn't automatically open. But that's not the best way for sure. But that makes it hard to select dogs then. So my first handlers, I always tell them, you know, I try to find the dog, which is good for you. And if we have luck, it will be a decent police dog. But maybe it will be not. You know, but the first thing is what I have to look for is that you can handle him. And you have no experience. So this is the main topic, you know. You have to be able to handle a dog. Right. I think we still have some good dogs. So what I think if we have motivated dog handlers, you know, they want the dogs will do the job at the end too. If you are lazy, the dog will be lazy. If you are afraid of any strange situation, your dog will be afraid. That's how it is.

So we have compared to the sport people, sometimes we buy out of the sport side or breeding side, very low quality. But at the end they do their job. What would be the oldest you would think? To buy? Yeah. I always prefer to buy very young dogs. Makes it easier. They have not so bad experience. Like young, like under a year? I start with six months, yes. I start with six months, yes. So I look and I never had to give a dog back which I bought in this age because it did not develop very well. So I think I have a good eye for this, you know. And the maximum age is three years. But in our system, we have in the police, if I buy a dog, it will take him at least one and a half years until he's finished. Not because of the time he has to spend for the cause. But we have a system you have to check in and there must be a cause at this time, you know. Right. It makes it very difficult, the system. But that's also very good. I mean, there's so many good things about getting a dog, a young dog versus an older dog. Because you allow it to develop the way you want. It doesn't come some, a dog that doesn't know nothing and just sees a ball and loses its mind. And then you have to choke him out to let go. You can actually do so much. Yes. But it takes more time, of course. It takes more time. But at the end, the end is for sure what you want or what you can make, I guess. We at the time, we bought puppies. But now our department does not want. Maybe it changes now. We will see. But we had really good experience with puppies. So, and one of the best experience for me, because at this time I did also the SWAT dog training. I was in charge for this over many years. And one of my friends, private also friend, he had his first SWAT dog. It was an older dog from Belgium Ring. And we became Blood Alliance. Very good, solid dog. And then for the next dog, we said, ah, we buy a puppy. And it took a puppy out of one of my littlers, not my littler, my kennel name. Yeah. My police dog was the father. We took the puppy and from the first day, we just prepared him for the SWAT job. And he was the easiest dog in all real operations we ever had. And he bites very strongly. He for sure had one of the most bites for SWAT dog in Germany at all. And he, the first bite, he did his job. And it's not a funny story. It's a story about, because in the first bite, my wife, she came from a town one and a half hour away from where we live now. Uh-huh. And this operation was in this little town. And this dog bites the guy in the leg. And all this thing is on video, but you don't see the action itself. And then you hear just a noise from a dog.

And then the video at the end is on the guy and the dog is on the leg and this, you know, all these things. And then they take the guy down. The dog is still in the leg. Handler puts him away. And then you see from a sudden on video, like blood is like this coming out. And then it's like, you hear the handler, my dog is injured, hurt. Oh, shit. And then you see blood all over when he took him out. And this guy cuts the, you know, the trout. Yes. To 90% where the breeze, he cut it. When the dog bit him, so after the noise was when he cut, but the dog stayed in the leg and fight, you know. And then they bring him with the lights to the wet in this little town. And he saved his life. He cut all, you know, and there's a picture of this dog in this wet. And when I met my wife, Maria, she told me about this picture because this is her wet. So that's a funny story. Man, how crazy, how crazy. Like, like how far a human, a dog, anybody can go when the genetics are right. Yes. Yes. He did his job and I mean, I never get cut by a knife, but people say this is one of the worst pains you can have. Right. It's worse than getting shot. The dog did his job. It did not even bleed, you know. And then when all was finished, it starts. You know, I think the adrenaline line was so high. And this was the first real bite of this dog. You never had experience before. So this dog was so easy. He was always quiet. He was in the team. You know, you, I mean, we put a lot of obedience on him. You could make a long down for one hour. You know, he was like, okay, because he never barked because we told him and we taught him from the beginning, because that's in our SWOT tactic. No barking. No barking. No barking. So we taught him barking is not necessary for you. You know, it was perfect. How much muscle work do you do when you prepare? With this dog, this dog had for sure not more than 10, 10, 15 bite experience in his life before this bite. I mean, bite experience on the suit or whatever. Yeah. So we did at the beginning, I showed him, but I drew it eight, nine months old. I showed him, okay, there are different options for you to bite. Legs. Yeah. Inner arms, whatever. And then we did a lot of, when you had the age, a lot of aggression work, you know, save him with two leashes. Just stop him a few inches before the decoy without equipment. Hold him. Yeah. And then we did 90% muscle. Just muscle. And this was also, you see, the dog was never fast in his life. Mm-hmm. Because we never trained him on brain. And he was walking slow in this thing, you know, like, okay, where is he? And then he goes and then boom, you know.

But maybe it was an exception, you know, but it was at the end, it was a super nice dog and did the job. And if you did muscle, what a, I mean, there's so many different, not that many, but there is at least. Two, three different school of thought as far as using muscle. Boxing or teaching him to bite, having a bar in the muscle, not having a bar, like. I don't train a special technique. I think, out of my experience, a dog who hits, like in Belgian ring, hits and go back, he will not bite in this situation. Probably. He's so used to hitting and go back. Yes. Yes, it's a, it's a. It's like, it's catching a prey, boom, and go back. Exactly. It's like the, doing some martial arts without contact. It's so much ingrained that that's what you do that you cannot really apply it. So what I'm looking for, I never think about how hard the dog hits. What I do, we do this aggression stuff. And then on the one side, on the other side, we use it, we make him comfortable with the muscle. Mm-hmm. And then we bring both pieces together. So my first 10 muscle works. The dog has no contact with the person. I, I make this, the system. Okay. I have two leashes on. I want to be aggressive. But this time you have the muscle on. And he should show the same behavior like without muscle. Like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I expect from a dog that he's just, they, with the muscle at the person. Right. Trying somehow to figure it out. Somehow. And even if they start with the legs, they, they, they want. Yes. I think if, if they want to keep this person, then they bite. I mean, they, the most dogs use the legs because they are, you know, they have the muscle on. Right. But they really try to keep this. So that's what I think. If they have the chance, they will try to keep this guy with the, with the mouse and not with the legs at this time. Yeah. That's what my theory or my thinking about. I also think, you know, in a muscle training that some, some, some people believe that they can do some magic and change a dog. But for the most part, a dog, when, when you've trained few dogs to do that and do civil bites, you know, if that dog will or will not bite. Right. Yes. The muscle, I mean, you cannot. You know. It's, there's no magic with the muscle that can create something that's not there. You can create, try to create aggression in, in, in somehow frustration. Right. I, yes, but not, it's not okay. My, my dog hits with a muscle now. We will be. Right. Ready to go. That's not the thing. Like we had this with the, the officer who had the, the puppy, his dog before from NVBK bloodlines. He had another handler before.

The dog was really, super nice dog. Mm-hmm. I bought him. Also from Volker Riedel. NVBK. Big head. Nice. He hits like crazy. You know, I, I know exactly because I had the suit on, on, on the test and, and Volker was laughing at me and said, yeah, we make a long bite. And I was, you know, I was, I was, I was gone. And, and, but socially and clear in the head and all. And then this was the first time, you know, we changed our training a little bit. I said, yeah, we have to go more on the muscle. And this dog was pre-trained with the muscle for the ring. Mm-hmm. And, and we were blind on this eye because all we did, the dog was crazy with the muscle. He hits you like, and he's like, ah, okay. So we were sure, boom, this dog will bite. And then he bites out of an accident in the training situation. Real with no equipment. This was, so, and he did, he made his job, you know, he bites. He did his thing. Police officer, no out. So it was really, and I said, well, okay, this dog will bite for sure. Hmm. The first operation, no bite. Hmm. Strange. You know, I was, right. And then we tried to figure out what happened. And then we did the same. We, we tried to make the same picture of how it was. So it was, the guy was just sitting on the couch. He was a little bit stupid. He had a gun in front of him. And they sent the dog. And then you just hear, ah, where's the puppy? Where's the puppy? And the dog was running around. Okay. Okay. So we prepared. We take a metal cage, like this metal grates for dogs, a bigger one we had. Mm-hmm. The dog did not know. So I went in and I was sitting still like this. And he sent the dog and I start talking. He ignored me. Okay. I said, okay, that's maybe the problem. Interesting. Yeah. The next situation we did with the muscle, the same. He come and run in that cage, boom, like crazy. I don't know. I'm not sure what's now. So we took the muscle off. We go back after one hour, same situation. I talked. He ignored me, you know. So he was so focused on the muscle. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like I could wear a sleeve. So that's what was the problem. And we were so blind in this. We said, ah, this dog is crazy with muscle. So what we do, the dog was in the car, in the patrol car. Okay. Now muscle time, muscle on and attack, boom. And this was the biggest mistake. The dog was, for the dog was the muscle, the signal, there is something. Exactly. It wasn't that the dog didn't have the courage or whatever. No, no, no. It was just the context of the. Yes. And this was the first time I think, hmm. So then we started to make him used to the muscle in all life situations. Mm-hmm.

And then we changed his life in a bad way at this time. Because, I mean, he was supposed to bite. And he did really good because he was mentally, he was super strong. He was a very friendly prey dog, but he was very strong. And we changed him really. So he had four weeks stress. At the end, he did super real bites and was still a good mentally stable dog. Now the, man, I mean, from what I know, as we said, Malinois kind of, they creeped in all the countries. And started to get really easy. I mean, at least from what I'm thinking. So, 89, 90, 93. Yes. And they really started to kind of be like, wow, okay. Everybody seemed to, not that everybody wanted one, but everybody started to get curious and pay attention. Right? And in Germany, how did that all happen? I mean, we know Lovenfels, we know Volkel. I mean, who, I mean, I know you were instrumental in the whole DMC thing, but give me a little bit of that history. It's always interesting too. Okay. I came a little bit later. So the first was Peter Engel, Lovenfels breeder. And then Volker Riedel, Anke Hopkens, Erb Brotanover breeder. Yeah. So they were pretty the first. Edgar was there very early, Edgar Scherkel. And I think, I mean, they, like for sure Peter and Volker Riedel, they spent a lot of money and a lot of time to, you know, bring this breed to the level in Germany they are, or they was a few years ago. So they, they were really interested in like Volker and Peter. They went to the Netherlands, they went to Belgium, they get the dogs. Yes. And I mean, you know, they get these NVPK dogs and they had pedigrees and they spent a lot of time. And, and they have a lot of knowledge for sure about this. And then, you know, you know, Peter, he bred a lot, Lovenfels. So people got more and more the Malleys and then you see, oh, the yellow foxes. Yes. But at the end there was the podium, oh, there was one yellow fox at the top. And, you know, so that people liked. And this happened to me too, you know, I saw the dogs and I, ah, that's a breed I like. So then, no rumors, but they were healthy, you know, usually. Like me, I had always the problems with the Shepherds or with my doorman, with the hips, with the elbows, with whatever. Yeah. So, okay, healthy, they are able to work. Let's try. Many people failed. You know, like when you watch now, when you go back, like the very successful people, like Knud, Peter Scherk, they, they did not came from the Shepherds. They came from different breeds. They came from the boxers. Yes, true.

And I think the typical German Shepherd owner, this was the guy who failed with the Malinois because, you know, I mean, you know. Of course. It's a different breed. They have different issues. You can go with the German Shepherd and say, and then, okay, I'm not going to do it this way. I'll do it your way. Yes. At the end, the German Shepherd will do the thing, you know. Yes. And the Malinois is more, was forever more sensitive and needs more social contact. Different. And so they failed. And that's good. That's really interesting. That's very true. I was wondering why. I mean, I mean, that's for sure must be one of the reasons, right? For, for everybody having boxers, Dobermans and, and. Not the easy breeds. Right. Or complete, not easy, complicated breeds, you know. Yeah. I mean, you cannot train a boxer or Doberman like a, like a German Shepherd. Not at this time, even not at this time. Mm-hmm. And, and for me, it was the first contact with SEPI. Mm-hmm. And this was when I contacted the DMC, to the German Malinois Club. This was when I was, I don't know, two months, two months, I was at a K9 unit as a patrol officer. And, and then in my state, they started, at this time we have this normal police department. In, in the police departments, there were one or two dogs. And then they start to centralize, you know, like they have, they made just, they built just these K9 units. Before there was no, no K9 unit. Okay. It was a K9 officer in a regular police station. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And nobody wants to drive with him because they had a police car for the dogs and, you know, it stinks and smells and the hair, so he was always alone. And then they start to centralize this. And, and at this time, in my first six months, I bought, for sure, 80, 90 police dogs. Wow. Because they start to centralize, they need more people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is how I met SEPI. And I, I know, I know him before from the sport because he was the judge. And, and, and then Emil Moultini, he's a French ring guy from France. He, he worked, the Grand Finale one time. Yes. He was one of the very dangerous French ring helpers. And I met him and the breeder, what, from Flanspate, also French breeder. And this was the first time we met and they came to us and offered some dogs and SEPI made the contact. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so, and like it was in this time, you know, we tested the dogs and after we trained our dogs all together. And so we did stupid things. I sent my, my, my, my big smiley on, on Emil as a super French ring helper, you know. Let's see if my dog can do it, right? Yes. Yes. That was the time.

And then, and then SEPI asked me because there was this Körung, this breeding test at his club. And they need a white dog. Huh? Oh, so the, the, you're talking the DMC Körung. DMC Körung, the high level. So it already started. Yes, yes, it's already started. Okay. But, and there was the Körung at his club, which is close to where I lived or which was there. Mm-hmm. And if I don't want to do the white dog for this Körung, I had no idea what, what will happen, you know. So, but I have to say they, so I went there one day before and they showed me what will happen and this, you know, crazy run through things and attack the dog and then French ring helper at the end, last station. So, okay, so I do this. I mean, at this time you just tried, you know. Of course. Yes. Oh, of course. And also there was Volker Riedel with Idol was also at this competition. Mm-hmm. One of his French dogs he brought in and he played a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And so this was my first contact with the DMC and then I was interested in, I was interested in the breed. So I decided from this moment, okay, this breed is for me. Okay. I will buy a female. I will be a part of this DMC. And that's what I decided. That's how, yeah. Cool. So, and that's how I started. And because I do helper work and then Seppi asked me or, I mean, he was not in charge, but Edgar was in charge or Peter Volker, do you want to do helper work for Körung? That's how it started. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, yes, I said, okay, this is my club or was my club. This is my club. So I did all, I went, I was, became a judge. I became judge for the breeding program. So this is, and the money must get bigger and bigger in this time. Right. Oh yeah. I mean, it was very exciting time everywhere, but especially in Germany in that time was a very, and, and somehow, I don't know why, but it, it really attracted very good trainers. Yes. Right. At that time. Yeah. Yeah. But how, what, what, how did the Körung even like, what was it behind that it happened? Cause normally when you think about Malinois, you think of, of, of Belgium and they, they would breed anything to anybody that has just one name, like Mina to Josh and whatever. And there is no breed test. There is nothing. But then Germany has the big tradition of breeding tests. And I'm going to speculate cause I want to hear, but I have to tell you first my thinking. I, I, I always believed that the Körung, that DMC Körung started because at the time Germany wasn't allowed to play with the bite suits and the, the ring sports. Yes. Also. And somehow that gave you the opportunity to, to push a little and to, to kind of strip the

dog and find out a little bit more than just the, the sport. Right. The idea behind this test. So, okay. We had these dogs from Belgium, from France, Netherlands, and they had all their rings bought. Yes. And at least one part of the breeding partners, usually the males, they went through this program. So they get tested in this program. And the idea behind was, okay. Schutzhund is no test for genetics. So we have to think about, we have no ring sports. So we think about doing something like this. And, and, and so all, you know, so what, what, what we are looking for in this Körung, like, like, like in Belgium, okay, the dog has to go straight. You know, this was, is one main part of our Körung. Right. Like the drive has to override the environment. Yes. Right. That's was one main part always. And all this distractions with noises. So this was the idea behind. Now, I mean, and I said this long time ago, out of my opinion, the Körung failed totally. So because, you know, training took over genetics by France. Right. So that's one thing, but the idea behind was not bad. They said, okay, we have this super nice dogs. I talk about Belgium, we have this super nice dogs. They are from Belgium and they breed because of the ring program. Right. It's a, so we have to find something what's, which is close to this. Yeah. Okay. At the end for me, it failed. Yeah. You know, like early on, and we, we mentioned Seppi, but for like people, obviously the audience, especially in the States, that's going to listen. And his name is Joseph Schmidt and he had the dog Schnitz. Schnitz the Dippert. I don't know. Was that 92 or three? No, no, later. He was. Yeah. He, he won the world championship. Who's the house? No, 1999. He was a judge and he was one of the people at the time that, you know, everybody respected for sure. And, um, I don't even know. I think it was him and Edgar one time with Django. I was at the world championship and they walked up to me and they're like, I want to ask you something. I'm like, sure. Like your dog did with the dumbbell. He came, but then he, he knew that something was wrong and he changed. Like, was that trainer? Was that the dog something? And the, you know, some, at the moment, somebody asked you something like this, you're like, okay, that, that's a dog person. That's not just a, somebody from the crowd. Sebi was the judge at this competition. Do you remember? Yes. Yes. True. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. So then eventually, you know, I got to know him and then we were, I was always curious about the Kiorong, of course.

And like he was talking how it was very interesting in the beginning, the Kiorong, because they could just think of, oh, let's, you know, let's do this and that's going to test the dog. And he really would test the dog. But then I guess there was, it was more of a freestyle. And then certain people started to be like, well, you're not doing this to my dog and you're doing this to different dogs. So there is no really like a uniform program. And the moment the uniform program comes, then you are able to train for it. Yes. That was. And that's where it started to kind of go bad. But he was giving me really funny examples of the one, you know, where the guy sits with the newspaper and whatever, and the dog is on a down or, you know, and then he jumps. Well, the dogs don't like in the beginning, you see the dog is really on a down and it's just looking at the clouds and butterflies. And then after some curings, now people are training and the dog is on a down and it's like, it's going to bite anything that moves. Right. And it just changed everything. Is that true? Or? Yes, that's true. I mean, one, sometimes it was too much freestyle, you know? Right. It was maybe not. Yeah. Yeah. Not, I will not say unfair, but it was very, very freestyle. And then, and that's like we, I mean, the Germans are like this, we need the rules, you know, so we make more rules. And then that was the beginning of the end. Then somehow the current started to select the wrong dogs, right? Yes. That's what happened. That's, that's an interesting thing. Yeah. The problem is when I look back now, so we really have actually a lot of Malinois in the breed, some breed a lot, they would not pass a Körung at the German Shepherd Club in Germany. Wow. Wow. Because, like one thing, at the Körung, the dog, there is also the exterior, you know, so they get measured the high, check the testicle and the teeth. And we have dogs now in the breeding program, they are not able that they can handle this. So they are afraid if the judge is coming for testing testicle, they jump on the handler, they pee themselves. They are afraid, they are crazy aggressive in a nervous way. But we never looked for this, you know. So we let them go on the parkour for biting and they did. Mm-hmm. But the basic temperament is the worst probably you can ever imagine. Yeah. I mean, if a two, three-year-old dog is not able to handle this, I come and put the, you know, to measure the height or check the testicle or check the teeth. If he cannot handle this, he is not worse for the breed.

If I go to the German Shepherd Club Körung or to the Rottweiler breeding test and my dog acts like this, they kick me out. Mm-hmm. I will not even have a chance to show how good my dog bites. And I think this was one of the main problems in our Körung. We always say, yeah, that's the breed, that's the Malinois, they are nervous, but at the end they bite. You know what is cool? I mean, not cool, but what is interesting? I mean, that specific, like, checking dog's teeth, testicles, measure at height, like we think of them as such very basic things. And then you get a dog that's unsure and it either tries to run away or tries to snap for really no reason. And I'm thinking, forget about dog sports, just confirmation. People still think that that's a, oh, you cannot touch him, you cannot check his teeth. It's only that. But that's a whole package of showing the dog's insecurity and just being uncomfortable and being comfortable is like, like to me, as a breeder, and we're going to go there because I need to hear your stories. Because, but as a breeder, one thing that always gets neglected or two things. One is longevity. I think it's super important. I mean, dog that's seven years old and it's already acts like a 14 year old or gets cancer or whatever, you know, if it's a good dog, of course you train, of course you go and compete. But you gotta see a dog that's 14 years old and it's still somehow does, you know, it's like, hey, there's something important there, right? And the same thing with, with that stability. It not being dumb, so I, I, but actually being stable. So I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I Because that's the ultimate, but you cannot stay here. You always, you need the primitive. You need the one that's not going to, when you call him, it's not going to fly to you and say, oh, what's up? But it's going to come. And nothing's going to happen fast. Nothing's going to happen with desire, but it's stable. And then you need that, right? And I think that DMC, where it ends, it ended kind of being trainability and reaction and reaction

and trainability and fast and speed. And then somehow there was a break point, right? I think we had the wrong picture. You know, like we talked about, you know, with my wife and people. And we talk a lot about this, even if I'm not in the breed anymore. I talk about that. Like on our trip now here to Florida, we talked. And maybe I said, yeah, that's right. We thought, okay, we, years ago, we pushed the button and the dog starts waking the tail and is active. Good dog, hard dog. Now I think a hard dog, if I pushed the button, which I'm not allowed to, but if I would push the button with a hard dog, he would not be active. He would say, okay, I do what you want, but in my way slow. So this is probably the hard dog. And we, there were some hard dogs like this, but we over-interpreted this, you know, that's not the activity. They were probably never hard. Right. And this is maybe one main thing. And this is what is missing now in the breed. The dogs are not hard anymore, you know. They are not able to live with bad circumstances. They are not able to drive in the car. They need two days after they drive five hours to a competition to relax. And that's, that's, I think that's the main thing. And, and, and in the DMC, we always try to level up the Körung for more, but at the end it get worse and worse. And then the most disappointing thing for me was after a few years or long time, we, we had the stakeout test when I started and then we took it away. Then we. I love the stakeout test. Like to explain it for the, just for, for the people that listening. So the stakeout tests, you stake out your dog, you leave him totally alone. And then a person is coming and just testing in different ways. And it's not neat for fancy, crazy things. Just go and look what he. How the dog will. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we bring back the stakeout test and I was still in the, in the judging, in the Körung, in breeding test judging. And I had a lot of Körung at this time. I'm sure a hundred dogs I judged. And there was not one dog who was like, you know, like, like an open aggression. You know, just standing there, tail up and say, okay, let go. Come. Not one. There was some like a little bit crazy, probably the most trained, the most dogs, passive and afraid. And when I say the most, I really mean the most. 80% for sure. Afraid. But. And kind of reactive, basically. Reactive, but negative, frankly. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were not able just to, to handle me one time. I just, I just, you know, so five minutes they were alone. I just stand in front of them and check my watch and said, okay, I'm not sure. I think two minutes.

So I said, okay, I just stand in front of you two minutes. They were not able to handle this. Yeah. Or they like this and go, hey, you know, turn around in circles. They try to escape in this situation. And there was not one dog out of a hundred. Interesting. And I think this was for me the thing, okay, something went totally wrong. And like also, so I thought back, you know, like also at this Körn, when I said I make this two minutes. Yes. So there was also a playing part. Play with different objects. Yes. And what we had at work, we had a system, we had this piece of metals. And this was for special detection stuff. And we have thousands of them at work at my department. And nobody uses it. So I thought, okay, I know there are 20 dogs. I take. You have enough. I take enough. So each dog can, because it was playing and searching for the toy. So I thought, okay, for each dog, I take a brand new one. At the end, I need two, because no dog touched it before. They were not able to play with metal. Right. And then I thought back when I started as a police, the typical police dog test, stake out, play with metal. And these were the dogs we bought at this time. And these were the dogs, they were washed out from the spot. But they still did this. And now we have this high class breeding. And they were not able to act normally in the stakeout. And they don't. I mean, you know, I try to play. I make, you know, I throw this metal thing. And they go. And the first second they bite in, they'll, oh, I don't want. And come back. Right. Man, I have problems with tests for some reason. And again, I mean, I just, I've bred so many dogs and doing guide dogs. And they had, like, in the guide dogs, they had their breeding programs and testing and volunteers. And, like, it was a big deal. And, like, when I think about the metal, sometimes you can have a dog that's going to fool you. In a way that if a dog is, you know, just kind of what we were talking about, the dealers and the dog lives in a crate that comes out. And there is this burst of energy. And they got to do something. And the only thing they have is a pipe. And, of course, they try to get, you know. But the overall desire and motivation to play, it's not really motivation to play. It's just pure frustration of, okay, I'm finally out and I'm free and I'm just going to grab something. And it can really fool. I guess you can easily prepare a dog to fool you if you know what you're doing. Right. But at the same time, if it, that's where it's difficult to test because you don't know, did you prepare the dog? And how do I compare that dog to the dog that is not prepared?

And maybe doesn't want to bite the metal, but he's spending 20 minutes and he's not giving up and he's trying to push it. And it's like, okay, it doesn't feel good to bite it, but I'm not quitting. I want to play. Yeah. And then how do you, you know. How do you balance? But even this, you know, I mean, it's not what many people think. Like, there is this search for a toy in this Körung, you know, or was. And then many people think, okay, if the dog goes straight, takes it and go out, that's the super dog. Right. That's not the super dog. Maybe he had just luck. Exactly. Exactly. How good? I'm no friend of testing anymore. If I would still breed more, I think always it's important to know your dog, to know things. And it would be the best if you know your breeding partner. If you know them from a puppy age, from training. So what I always say, like we did now at the workshop, three days training in a row and the dog does not give up from Friday to Sunday, then it's. Right. Right. For sure no bad dog. You see a lot in these situations. And all of our testing was not good. So if you were to think of doing, like, let's say you would set up another Körung program. Anything that comes to mind that you would. What I would do, but this is. Put in. This is not possible. I would. For me, it would be enough. A character test, you know. How acts a dog in normal situation. Go to Starbucks, have a coffee. Whatever. Also, we came here to the trip. We walked at the Frankfurt airport and there were a few people, you know, with, I don't know, little dogs. It's whatever. And they just walked, you know, in the airport and the crowd. And then Maria said, okay, maybe that's the problem. But because if you have a Mully who acts like this, you say, boy, that's a super dog. And for them, it was just normal, you know. They just walk. They go there to the stairs. And we are super happy if a dog is like this. But this should be the normal of a dog. But I think that's why there is something about the Belgian program that selects stable dogs. But maybe they select, really. And, you know, I mean, for me, the best would select the offspring. This shows me if a dog is worthful for breed. No matter how I think he is, you know. If he produces in a litter 50% of good dogs, no matter what I think of him, he must be a good producer. But it's not possible to find a system, I think, you know, to check all the offspring. But this would be, for me, the most worthful. I mean, you don't need to check all of them. A few. But a good amount. Yes. But it's still the way better option when it comes to breeding than, oh, this is the last modern dog right now.

This is the trendy dog. This is the, and then everybody all of a sudden breeds to that dog. The next thing you know, there is more than 2,000 liters, which is crazy, but it really happens. And now the genie is out of the bottle, whatever the genie is. Now go do something about that, you know. Like I, especially with Malinois, I follow them for so long and you can see how a kennel can have a certain type and can be a, oh, this is the kennel where you want to get a dog. No, that's not the kennel where you want to get a dog. That's the combination you want to get a dog from. And next thing you know, that kennel for some reason loses that stud that produces. Not that it's good, but that produces the line. And then it moves somewhere else. And then it moves somewhere else. You kind of got to know where it goes. But the core temperament and the type of dog is still there. It's just not in that kennel or that kennel. You just somewhere. Right? It's very interesting this way. I would not test, you know, no. I would not test. Yeah. I would do something because, you know, I think not every dog should produce himself, you know. Right. So wash out the really bad stuff, for sure. And then watch the offspring. It's crazy talking about breeding, especially in a podcast, because, again, like, even what I'm going to say right now, it can create confusion. Yes. Like, you breed once or twice, and then you know. You better know. Right? And that was, like, I mean, there's so many invaluable just knowledge I got from the Belgian people back then. It was like, and I was like, man, but that female, she doesn't bite. Like, she literally, like, you're with a burlap and a bamboo stick. And she's just, she's not afraid. She's just like, yeah, well, what are you doing? Yeah. I'm like, I wouldn't do nothing with this dog. And then you have this Belgian old guys with the, you know, the. The blue. Yes. Yes. It's like, she's a good mom. Yeah. And she comes from this dog. Who comes from this dog? If we don't try it, we don't know. Yes, yes. It's that simple. That's the problem. If you would try and find out it's good or bad. But I think, you know, so people also, yeah, they want to breed. Right. And even if the offspring is bad, health problems, whatever, they do again. Right. That's, you know, that's the main thing. And then it's interesting. We have good discussions the last two years with old ex-DMC members, you know. Like what Volker Riedel is talking. If you're a breeder, we are no breeders. I mean, I was never a breeder. You are a breeder. You have many dogs. You can breed. You can check out. You have 10 females.

You can, whatever, you can check out. Okay, this produced, this female not, you know. Right, right, right. If you want to breed good dogs, you have to make a lot of litters. Yes. To find whatever you like. And we had this with Peter Engel or Volker Riedel or Anki, you know, they breed a lot. And then if you are honest to yourself and say, okay, maybe I have here the super female, but I make two litters with two different males, two different lines, and obviously it does not work out. It's better to stop. That's a breeder. Yes. Yeah. But you have to try. You have to try different things. You have to... It's super hard. Really, it's hard. And what it's like, as a breeder, the heartbreaking part is when, yeah, I mean, you're trying to breed for this, but then something else comes and you need to decide what you do. How do you find a home? Do you put it down? Do you like... I spend so much money on little puppies going to the vet. They think I'm crazy. And I just... It's like, okay, I feel irresponsible, you know? This is like... But, I mean, I'm not saying that that's the right way or not right. I mean, there is so many factors to that. But, but tell me about, I mean, talking breeding, so tell me about Lupanus. And I remember the first time when I came to your place. And, I mean, Duke was kind of old then. I think it was like maybe nine, eight, ten-ish, like, you know? Yes, yes, probably. But I never really actually got to see him at that time. But how, where, where, where did that breeding and what, I mean, there is still... Even, even in my paper, I mean, my papers, I have quite a few of the dogs, for sure, for sure. I mean, it's, he was a dog, like, all dogs, the good sides and bad sides, you know? But what people talk now, I mean... But I don't care about what I... Yeah, but it's interesting, you know, like, a few, I don't know, two years ago, B.L. Wallstrom, he posted, I mean, he likes to post on Facebook. Of course. Good thing, he said, it's not... How is it? Okay. A dog with good genetics can do all. It's not about breeding for police or breeding for sport. It's just a question of the training I put on this dog. Do you believe that? Because I, I believe that very much. Yes, for sure. So... Because there is always, oh, that's a ring line, that's a IGP line, that's a... No. A good dog is a good dog, and that's what I think, and that's what, what I also see. Like in our crazy times with the DMC, we had all this contact to the... Mainly French ring, and we go there with our good sport dogs, IGP or Schutzen dogs, and the helpers did this and this, and the dog... Functions. Yes.

So it should be great, and with Duke, for me, it was... The mother was a Depodois dog. I bought older, she was not good race, for sure. You know, she was not in Belgium, she was in Germany, but she was that type of dog now, you know, she was not able to do the sport I wanted. The levels, yeah. Yes, because she was, okay, if you put pressure, she's like, okay, I do. You know, but like a Mouly. Yeah. But she bites, she had grip, she played like crazy. Okay. And then I put Schnitz, the Depodois, on, he was the dog. Yeah. Like, more on the extreme side, you know, and the whole little... You know, I never actually met the dog in person. He put him down before I ever met him. He was old, but not social, that was his main problem. So, for sure, for the most people he was, for today, he would be no good dog because he was overaggressive. So, you know... But this is our problem right now. Like, we think that if we have the ideal dog and we keep breeding that ideal dog, we will keep ideal dogs. Yes. And we need variations. We need, like, we literally need all variations. I, well, maybe not the spooky ones with the runs away from the gunshots or whatever. But you really need all the variation. What I really liked about Schnitz was not his aggression, but I liked his aggression too, but he worked in obedience for nothing, 40 minutes. Because, and you know Seppi, I mean, he's dead now, but he was the laziest human being I ever met. So, he was too lazy to give a dog a toy. Oh. You know? And so, he just tell him fools and this dog did all. And 40 minutes and the tail was up and he was still running. And at the end, he gets the, whatever, a ball and that was it. And that was why I chose him for me because I like this type. And Duke, you know, he was, I was quite successful in sport. I won the, the DMC. Yeah. Nationals. I won the VDH, AWDF. I was in the world team, FCI. And on the other side. I mean, your resume, when you, when you, like, and I'm going to put it down on the podcast. I mean, it's really impressive, like, from all the areas you've done. And on the other side, he was a good police dog. You know, he had some good life bites. He was always there when I need him. So, what people say now, you know, we need this type of dog. I mean, he was it with all his mistakes. Yes. You know, he was a little bit sensitive with noises. We talked about this. Yeah. Two days before. Yeah. Sensitive, not in the form of runaway. Not shutting down, just excitement. Excitement. And also. He was very social with the family, but he was very antisocial with everything around, outside of the family. For me, he was a good dog.

I mean, for sure, they were dogs the same quality. I almost want to check the pedigree, because I haven't looked at the pedigree a long time. But do you know where Schnitt's parents were? Because there was a dog at the Dio Potois. His name was Nelton. No. Have you heard of him? Yes, I know. But he was not out of Nelton. That was a... I, man, I wish I could see that dog today. Yes. I was interested one time in Nelton offspring breeding, but... I never really... Like, he was a dog that he looks at you, and you don't read nothing. Like, he just looks at you, and are you looking at me? Are you looking through me? There's just nothing in the language. But every time when you see him in public, he was with a muzzle. But he was very low-key. He wouldn't... Like, you... He wouldn't draw attention. He just kind of walks around. That was a dog you don't fuck with. No. I mean, you never know. Just... I know what people tell you, because, you know, he was the David Wa breed, and he had the pedigree, but this was not the pedigree. Oh, of course. So, but it should be no sheep people, but others. But, I mean, at the end, you have to believe what someone told you. I have the information from the girlfriend of Luc. Uh-huh. But I don't know if he remembers Schnitz, you know, that's like... So, I was... Those were the great times. Those were, man... There was that... Also, I think that whole mystery about pedigrees with the Malinois kind of made it even more attractive to everybody. There was like a... Oh, open secret. ...mystery of like, what do you know? Now, what do you know? I mean, on the one side, it's good. I have no problems. On the other side, we went in some traps out of this, you know, like this SDCA stuff. And so, like people, you know, they always had like, you know, this weakness of the backhand. What they called, ah, this is from Shreep Biber. And now we have this SDCA test, one, two, three, four. And so, in my first, my ever first litter I did, I had this ataxi. And nobody noticed. Yeah, exactly. How did you... And I took a dog, Nelson de Colombo feel. He was... I took him. He was FCI world champion after I took him. I did not take him because of that, but we had a brother in police and he was a phenomenal dog. But he was not able to breed because he had no, you know, no trial, no curing, nothing. So, I checked the pedigree and I found this Nelson. He was in Austria. And I checked and he was over a French dog, Gotha, de Berger de Vaillant was the name. And I checked offspring of Gotha and I saw I took this dog.

And then I had this ataxi in the litter, but I mean, right now I know the pedigree of this dog was for sure not right. But, you know, this was the trap I stepped in. Exactly. And because you had not the chances like today to get all this information. Right. I mean, today the world is like out of class. Oh, very different. At competition, like a dog competition, they will come in Belgium. People, I mean, from Germany, from everywhere. And Luke Van Stiebruch would be sitting on a table like this. And there will be a line of people. That's the Diopoto outbreeder, right? Just for the people that know. And he had this big, like a freaking book, like probably this big, and he would open it. I mean, it's all handwritten with ink and pencil. And I mean, you're thinking like Harry Potter story. And you tell him the name of the dog and you show a pedigree. And then he goes like this, like this, like this. And then in a little piece of paper, he writes you a few names. I have him. Like I have for my, the first dogs. Now, how true is what he told us? We have to believe. Nobody knows, right? I mean, it was really a Harry Potter story. I mean, really. Speaking of which, he, he's still breathing. Like he got back into it. He messaged. That's what I heard. Yeah. He sent me a message on Facebook. Hey, I'm Luke, whatever. And like, I don't know exactly what the message was. I'm the Diopoto outbreeder. And I'm thinking there's no, there's no way. This is, this is gone. Done. This is somebody that wants to, you know, social media. But, but I answer. Yeah. It's the problem you answer today. I answer. And of course, then we talk few, few, few sentences and I know it's him. But yeah, he's back into it, which is very cool. But so what, how did you end up stop breathing then? Because I mean, everything was, I mean. I was never so interested in breathing. Really? You know, it's, it's, it was more just, okay, I have the female. Yes, I do a litter, but I. But many people really like, I mean, when you go back into so many pedigrees, you see him in there. Yes, he's in, but he's in like many other dogs in this time. Right. With Stug, I was not even interested him as a breeding male because he was, he, I sold him to police. So all the breeding fees went to the government, not to me. So, you know, that was, but I thought he produced some. Like every dog, he produced some nice dogs and some bad dogs. Yeah. That's normal. But I was never so interesting in breeding myself. Mainly, I think if I'm not a breeder, I mean, like you, you know, you breed as a breeder. And I think all the other people, they should breed.

If they want a new dog, then they should breed. You know, that's what I think they should breed for themselves. And, and not just breed that's, that there are some puppies on the street. That's. That, I think that's the most interesting part of breeding is to, to have some generations and it's like, Hey, I, I know you. I mean, we had, we have now our dog Nike. She's inbreed on Duke. Maria has a dog and her competition dog. And we had this one litter and it's okay. And then we tried to take another litter or make another litter. But she got injured in the breeding. And so she lost probably all, maybe she was never pregnant, but she lost the puppy. She had big problems. We had to take her to the clinic, to do it. But we are not. We will, we would, we will breed the next time. Probably, or if we breed, if Maria needs a new Malina, we will maybe do a breeding again. And if we decide not to breed, we will buy another dog somewhere. So that's what we do. I'm interested in breeding, you know, I, I'm interested in genetics and. Yes. Oh, it's, it's, it's a mess. It's super hard. If you want to do it the right way, it's, it's super hard because you have to, you have to kind of dare to experiment. And experiments are guaranteed to go wrong. And then you have to have an answer. What do you do with those puppies? What do we, what do we do? That's the bad part. And that's a hard one that nobody wants to talk about, you know. And that's the bad part. I mean, you have to litter and you see, okay, this dog is not good. Right. But you have to give it away anyway. So, so what do you do, you know, and then people are coming and then sometimes you know them and then you don't want them to have a bad dog out of your kennel. No, but that's true. No, but that's true. Like you really, as a breeder, it's the, one of the worst thing is to sell a puppy knowing that the puppy has a problem. That's just, this is a hard one. I mean, on the one side, it's changed in Germany now. What, what is good is also a very bad thing. When I started, Malinois puppies, they were never sold as a pet. Right. And they were what, like 400 euros? Five? Five, six? And never as a pet. And this changed a lot, you know. I mean, here in the US, probably more than in Europe. But now you see more and more Malinois as a pet. So it makes it easier to sell the washout. Also. Yes. But the problem is we have more washout than, you know. And, and all of a sudden everybody thinks that, oh, it's a Malinois, it should act spooky. It's like, no, Malinois, good Malinois don't act spooky. No, they act like dogs, like normal dogs. I mean, for sure there are no German Shepherds.

Yes. But you, that's maybe one main thing that we always excused this strange behavior with the breed. Right. And the really good dogs, what I know, they never act a longer period strange. I mean, each dog. Exactly. When they start from puppy, they have their faces and there is, you know. But the very good ones, they were very fast. Good again. That's where the Belgian ring somehow, I don't know what's with the program and I don't know what's with the tradition. But I really, I really think that as long as that program stays, the breed has a chance. I mean, we talk now a lot about, we would like to get more knowledge, you know, about the Belgium dogs. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it's not so easy. I mean, it's the same. It's like the IGP thing. It's a little bit of close stuff, you know. So it's hard to get in. Then you don't know, you know, with whom you are talking, who can you trust. But we want to go the next years, we want to try to go to Belgium and watch some trainings and watch some different dogs. Right. And get more information about this NVBK lines. Yes. And you know what is going to be interesting for you? You know, you may go with the idea to see a specific dog or a club and you're going to hit, you're going to take a wrong turn and you're going to go to some local club and you're going to be like, I like that dog. Yeah, probably. And that's the best thing that can happen. Yeah. But they're there. They're like there, you know. Yes. That's what we think, you know. We think we should look more for where our dogs came from. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm the same. I mean, they produced them in a way that I said, okay, I want one. Right. Tell me about judging. How did it, what happened? How did you decide to go through the judging? And I mean, you've judged world championships. You've been to the States. How many, I mean, at least three, four, five times. I mean, you've judged everything. So how did that start? So, okay. When I said, okay, I want to be a part of the DMC. I'm a guy. I take response over something. So I said, okay. At this time, there was just one DMC judge, Volker Riedel. Oh, wow. And we had at this time this called ACG. This was all the working dog breeds and the DVG DHV. They had this organization, this board. And the DMC was always under critique because we had just one trial a year. This was the champion. Probably not. No. And so the DMC as a club was looking for judges. And so for me, it was no question because this was my club. So this is for me a thing. A way to contribute to the breed and the club. Yes. Yes. So I decided to become a judge.

And it was on the other side, it was very easy for me because I was a judge for police already. And we had this combination. So I did not have to do the whole judge's education. This was also in the rule books at this time in Germany. So they took me kind of over. I did a few apprentice judges with Peter Jacobs, one of my big mentors in judging and sport. I know him now. Of course. One of the coolest people in the sport for sure. And this is how I started. Which one is, what trial was your first one that you're like, wow, I'm actually really a well-accomplished judge. I mean, I got selected to judge. Pretty fast I judged the German AWDF, the VDH championship. You know, I had almost no judging before, just one club trial. Wow. And then the championnat. I mean, I always liked the VDH or the AWDF, which I think I judged three times AWDF. And I always liked the different breeds. Okay. That's what was one of my... But that's your background and you've had different breeds. Yes. And I was never like, you know, I was never like, oh, I have to be a judge because I have to travel every weekend. I'm super happy if I can go there. For me, it was more like a response to my club, you know. Just giving back. Giving and help this organization what I like to be a member of. And it was also... So we started, you know, we had always this one trial and then we started to make like club trials and regionals. And I think this was a good thing at this time. It was also this regionals and club trials for DMC. I mean, we talked about this before. It was education for the judges we had then and for the helper. So this was good to do. And I liked judging, but I was never like, okay. You know, if you would ask me, you want to compete or judge, I would ever compete. You know, I would never say, okay, I don't compete on this trial because I have to judge it. That's a lot of the good judges. That's the dilemma you face always. For me, it was never worthful, you know, I hear the judge. But you do have passion for judging and you do have the eyes for judging. And that makes it difficult not to judge. So I... If all works normally, I will be back this year. I applied as a judge in the Schnauzer Club of Germany. And it looks like they will take me over now. Anytime we talk points, anytime we look, judging stuff, I pay attention when you talk. I mean, it's difficult to make everyone happy, you know. Yes, and it's not... And being a judge, it's like people really take it like a... This is not a computer artificial. Like you're a human and our brain cannot stay focused five hours nonstop. Mistakes will happen. There's no way.

But a good judge... And... I mean, I'm a judge, but I don't judge for that reason because I am a competition freak. There's like... There's just not possible. I would love to, but I... If any day I need to pick, no matter what championship it is, I would... If I have a chance to compete, I go and compete because it's a... But I also love the judging. And I think the... Judges really decide... Like I sometimes think about... Well, we have breeders and we have judges and we have competitors. And then we have some mix of everything. All of them are super valuable. But ultimately, a good judge is the one that will point out if they have the knowledge, this is the right dog. Yes. Because it's the right dog for many reasons. Not just... Yes, you're a good trainer. But you can be the good trainer and you have a dog that's not supposed to really be bred by everybody. But then there is... And it's really... This is the ultimate duty of a judge, the way I see it. To be able to... Yeah. That dog is... He allows you or she allows you to train him. But it's also an independent animal. And you see... And you see... You see it as such. And then it's like... Yeah. And it stands out. And... It's a part of the judging that's kind of getting lost more and more. To where it's like about points. And people don't realize... Or judges and judges camps don't realize that... As a judge, you make somebody a champion. You're actually saying, hello everybody. That's the dog to breed to for the next five years. One way for sure, yeah. And that's a big responsibility. Let me start with one thing. When I was new in the DMC and then as a judge, Volker Riedel. He said to me one time on a trial, everybody's darling is everybody's idiot. So, you know... Right? So, I never said... For me, I never thought, okay, I'm here to make everybody happy. And I don't care, you know. I always try to make the best happy. If I give someone five points more, I punish the good ones. Because if he... For example, if he scores 98, I cannot give him five points more than he deserves. So, that's what I always thought. You know, if I give more points, I will punish the good ones. Yeah. Because there is a border. The hundred is the border, you know. I cannot go higher. Yeah. So, this was always my thing. And then it came... I mean, you know that... I really loved judging obedience. Mm-hmm. I hate tracking because I was so lazy. You walk all the time. But I did. Also on World Championship. And I did protection. I like in a kind protection. But the problem for me always in protection was you are so close to the dog. So, and I'm a helper. And I have different breeds. And you are close.

And you see exactly this dog is just well trained. Yes. Yes. And makes it very hard for a judge because he plays the rules and he has... Yes. But we have this sport. Yes. And the dog fulfilled this sport. Right. And you are forced to give him points. It's not that I'm, you know, I don't bite my tongue because I give a dog at 96. But, you know, from what I was thinking, this was for me always, okay, protection is nice. I look and I like and I'm really, I'm super happy if I see a very strong dog in protection. But I see many dogs. I know, okay, I just have to give them the points because the handler deserved... They make the points. Yes. Right. And this is why I like obedience because there is the part where the handler deserves the point. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If it's a super trained dog, then he can deserve these points. If the handler is able to make a dog who is not high quality for obedience, bring him in high points, then he really deserved it. And then it's no question of breeding. Right. And protection is always, for me, not as a fact, but it's always, that's what you said. If I give a dog on a world championship 99 points, people think this must be a super dog. Yes. And then you give a dog 99 and you think, hmm, he's a super 99 sport dog. But this makes it difficult. But you have no chance, you know, you cannot judge what you think. Nobody will understand it outside. I mean, if you are close... There's another problem with, like, especially IGP, it takes a long time to stay in the sport to understand. There's so many nuances and so many... It's like, oh, no, this dog looks really good. It looks really good. And you don't understand what you're looking at. Yeah, because also the program changed or the judging. I mean, now, if I watch now, it's all about grips and all about transitions. Mm-hmm. And I always think the most important thing for me is guarding and attacking. Attacking is more worthful than gripping. The strike. Yeah. The cobra. Boom. Yes. No? That's for sure. Even when you throw the ball. Yes. And you're like, oh, fuck, he's going to break his teeth. But he just... Yeah. But now, you see, I mean, we talked about, we have examples. I mean, they make super nice grips, super nice ventures and go out, stand, like, oh, ears up, tail up. Okay, good points. Right. Yeah. If you watch attacks. Mm-hmm. Okay. Exactly. Yeah. And this is... But this is also very easy. I can take... I can go out here on the street, take the next who's walking there, explain him, just watch. This is the sleeve. The dog has this big mouth. He must be like this all the time.

And when the helper stands still, you wait one second and then he goes out and watch. Right. Yeah. Everybody can see and judge this. Yeah. Everybody can see and judge this. That's the main problem, I think. Everybody. I can take everybody. This is easy to explain. But it's not easy to explain. Okay. You see it? This dog, he fights. He attacks. He just... He does not wait for the decoy to do anything. He is the active part in this thing. Even if the grip is not full. Right. He has... He fights. He tries. He makes it, you know? Which makes me... You know what? I just thought of it. Helper work at big competition. Like it's becoming... You have this... Oh, I'm the super athlete. I'm going to take the dog and I'm going to take him to the next point in 2.5 seconds. And if I'm a judge, I'm like, can you actually slow down and let me see what that dog is doing? And if he's trying to overpower you, like give me a little... Like let me see something. And they just go like, boom, done. Sometimes it's not about fast because fast you don't expose the dog. You don't show it. You don't strip it down to his natural abilities. Right? If you are so fast, that's what I think. You give the dog no chance to run away. You know? Even that. Right. He's just hanging in there in a roller coaster and it's... Okay, now it's over. I think we don't have this... Or many of these helpers anymore like what we're talking about in the competition. It's so... But if a helper does what we are talking about, I think the crowd would not understand. They're going to be like, replace him. This guy cannot move. I mean, that's the craziest thing. You know, everybody talks... When you go in this old Facebook stuff, everybody talks about the real dog. Of course. Oh, that's a real dog. And that's a real dog. And that... And then we had this discussion this year. I don't know. And then there is a helper on the national. He made the dog run. Everybody claims about the helper. You know? The same who talks always about the real dogs. Yeah. They claim, ah, this helper did this wrong because this was unfair. Nothing was unfair. You know? The dog was just running. Exactly. And that's the discrepance in our sport. And the same what I always say with the helpers. You know? I mean, we watch World Championship. 100 dogs. Two helpers. Wow. Super helpers. They are good in this sport. But who are the good helpers? The 100 helpers who train the dogs. True. These are, you know, the good helpers for the sport. Preparing for. Yes. Not... I mean, this thing, it's nice. And you have to be physical in some way. I think the first part is pretty easy. Now, in these days, we have these super fast dogs.

Second part, you need good technique. Like, but, you know, that's not all about good helper work at the end. Yeah. For me, the good helpers are the helpers who prepare the dog for this. That's, that's... But in, in, in, you know, when we need, like, what people think about, okay, this helper, he works the world championship, he works the nationals, he must be a good one. At the end, he's just a good athlete. Exactly. But the, the, I'll go further with this. The problem I have is they're good athletes. They, they're athletes. They do the right moves. They're safe. But they don't go into the dog's mind and they don't show, is that dog strong or is it not strong? And you can, as a helper, we know you can show this. You see, after the first. And that's what somehow in, in, at least any helper, uh, programs that I know, it's all about correct helper work. No, you do five steps and you do the stick hit and, and, and it's all this robotic, like, your job as a trial helper is to, to be able to show if the dog is strong or weak. I mean, maybe. Within the rules. Yeah. Maybe think about what does the word helper mean? You are not the helper of the dog. Right. You are helper of the judge. Of the judge. Mm-hmm. So you should help me to find my result. That's the job of the helper. Even, even something as simple as just slow down. Yes, I see you're athletic guy. You're young. You're strong. But slow down. Let me, let me see that dog. Give him opportunity to do funny things. Yes. Or not. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, take the escape. I mean, it, it was, it's better now, but I, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, at least in Germany, it was so common. Full speed. Run as fast as you can. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and even the strongest dog had almost no chance to show his ability. Because he bites and then before he was, you know, the legs all good. He was at the end, boom, out. Yes. Huh? Yes. Yeah. It's no race, you know. For, I mean, every dog is faster than every human. But it's like a vicious circle because the judges that don't understand, they want the helper to act like that because they want, they're like, okay, let's just make sure that you do the right thing for every dog. Right. And then the helper becomes robotic and. Yeah. And, but what's the topic about escape? Escape is strike and try to stop. Not in the crazy way like people, you know, do it. Oh, yes. Not artificially, but a natural effort to oppose. Right, okay. He should not, you know, he should not push the helper to go faster. He should try to stop. Huh? That's, that's the main thing. And if I run like crazy, it does not happen.

And then also for me, I mean, you have in your genetics, you in your breed, you have this, usually this super nice full grips. That's, that's, I think one main character of your dogs you have. But also there are dogs, they are not always with the super full grips. Right. And. But there is so many other qualities that they can compensate for and you appreciate it. Yes. And, and this super fast strong dogs, they will not ever have the full grip. Right. Because they are sometimes just too fast. The priorities. Yes. I'm going to get you. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And, and, and that's what people have to, to learn again, you know. The same with, with the escape. I mean, if a dog, what, what people train, if a dog makes a curve to get the full grip, something is wrong in this dog. I mean, a strong dog, he can learn the technique to make the full grip anyway or in the most times. But a strong dog will never run a curve. Right. Exactly right. I mean, the shortest, the shortest way is a straight. That's what I learned. You know. And not the curve. And, and there are so many things. I mean, even, I think if, if we would change a little bit helper type and judges type. That's the thing. I think it's a combination. It is, it is that conversation between helpers and judges. Yeah. That needs to happen. Yeah. I mean, you could, you could make, when you change little things, maybe you could make a better statement about the quality as a judge. About the quality of a dog as a judge. But in the system right now, you can just look for the sporty training. Right. And even if you, even as a judge, even if you see something and you want to say it, the helper didn't really give you an opportunity to expose it. So you cannot say it. You just need to award the points. Yes, you have to. And that's what it is. Because that's the right thing to do. At the end, you have to take what they offer you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have here, I mean, we're trying to, to make some, something with helpers and we have some ideas how to go. It's not all about athletics. You have to have, like, I think you need to have coordination. You need to have a very good coordination. But if you are not as fast as most other helpers, I think you still should be selected to do helper work. Because you're going to, you're going to teach something different in the dog that the judge is going to appreciate. Right? Yes. I mean, it's not that, I mean, we are both now over 50, but I'm sure we could work a trial and show. And separate the dogs in the categories. I mean, I don't want to because I'm out of breath after that. But I'm sure we could, you know.

And then we could never do 100 dogs on the FCI World Championship. That's for sure. But, yeah, there should be something to separate the good from the not so good. And to wash out the really bad ones, that's the problem. Before we get out, I'll jump in a very different place now. Because I said that we're going to talk about this. January, the new legislation in Germany came and everybody's talking about it. But before we even get there, what, like, you can tell me what you feel comfortable talking about. I'm sincerely curious. I have my opinions. But I'm very curious how in the world this whole thing happened when science apparently said that negative reinforcement, punishment, and all those things are not good. And you should only train dogs through positive reinforcement. How did that? I mean, it creeped in Europe little by little. Nobody expected that that's just going to happen one day and you're not going to be able to train dogs. And for everybody that's listening, I still want to say that when we talk about negative reinforcement and punishment and stuff like that, it's... You can do things very wrong. You can be a very shitty person and you can do horrible things to dogs. And bans, in my opinion, will never prevent that. Like, you can... A bad person or uneducated person will find a way to do bad things. It's not about, I'll take this away from you. That's not ever a solution. But somehow, very sneaky in Europe, this happened to the point where we are right now in 2022. That the landscape is very different. And there is a whole new young generations of trainers that are kind of misguided and misled and truly believe that there is a right and wrong way. And the competitions, in my opinion, are the real love, the real test of, hey, I can do it this way. Maybe I train only negative reinforcement. But I'm such a master that you cannot tell how I train. You can never tell how I train, no matter what kind of saliva tests and urine tests and what you want to do. And that person, for whatever reason, can do something better than everybody else. Why don't we find out what that is? Instead of saying, well, there is this research and this research and science says, oh, we can do it better. But nobody actually shows you how to do it. And so how did it all, like, little by little grow to the point where we are today?

Did you not believe that it will get here? Maybe it's interesting how this new law came to Germany, you know, because, like, every time they... So we have this animal protection law and this thing, what happens now, this is not a law, this is a bylaw. This... Okay. This pinch color stuff that's in the bylaw, you know. Mm-hmm. And it's... Yeah, it's strange because this bylaws, you know, this was... So this bylaw was spread in Germany to all the organizations, also to the VDH, you know, compared to the AKC and to the police, so to the wets from the administration. And this was spread one and a half years ago. And the main topic of this bylaw was a little bit about breeding, so you just can have, like, three litters at the same time as one person. And one main topic was about these dogs to protect the herding, herds, sheeping, you know, because we have these wolves coming back to Germany, mainly east part, and so the professional shepherds... Shepherds, yeah. They actually really need to look for these dogs. And this was the main topic of this bylaw. And there was nothing about the pinch color ban in it. So this is how it came, for example, also to me at my department or to the VDH, and they discussed about it. And then when it was time to discuss about this law, there was nothing in. And then it go back to the government, to this... So it kind of got sneaked in. And then, you know, it came back to the decision, okay, we take this now as a bylaw. And then there was this one sentence in. About the pinch and whatever. And so nobody was asked before about this. There was no discussion, there was just nothing, nothing. It was just not in. And that's a little bit strange for me. It was, you know, it was... I mean, when this came out first, I think in June, then I checked what I had before. This sentence was not in. So not the VDH, not the police, not whatever had the chance to discuss this. Hey, that's maybe we have to... So it was in. It came from an animal protection organization, obviously, over the state of Bavaria. And however, this is complicated. I don't even know all. Oh, for sure. So it came, you know, just in short before the decision was done. So there was... So it was surprising a lot of... Yes, for us, it was a totally surprise. In June, I mean... Yeah. I was not surprised that the 1st of January will come and now we hear it is. But in June, it was like, oh. You know? And so, like, I can tell you what we did from the police side. So from the first time this was popped up, we said, oh, we have to do. And we try. We had this member of the Congress and we try.

But the problem is we had elections in autumn, like in my state and in Germany at all. So they said, yeah, this was the best time to bring this in. Because nobody takes care about, you know, animal things. Nobody cares. They just want to re-elect and this. So nobody took care of... That's politics. Yes, that was politics. So there was one member of the parliament. He was a former police officer in our state. And he said, yeah, that's the best time. The best time if you want to bring something in. Because nobody will take care about your interests. Wow. So this is how it came in. And, yeah, I really don't understand. I mean... So what is exactly... Like, I mean, I read it in German. I read it in some translation in newspapers. It came into... But what is exactly... What does it say? What is... Exactly, it's a ban of the pinch. And then all other equipment you can use to... That inflict pain. Yeah. And this is not defined yet. And now people get crazy like Germans are, you know. Now they talk about the fair saver color and whatever. But, I mean, now we have to wait for what will, you know... What will come out at the end. For sure, the pinch is banned. And the other things... We will see that the problem for me is... So there was this sentence in the bylaw. And then there was like a part where they explain different things. Where they explain why we can use now a dog to protect the sheeps. You know, that's... And they explained because the scientists said there is no need to train a dog with negative reinforcement. Reinforcement. That's the main problem for me. Right. Right. That's the problem for everybody, really. And that's... I... This is... I hate... But I always talk about this on my podcast somehow one way or another. Because it's... It always comes to that. And I wish that... If there is a better way... Don't you want to know? Yes, for sure. I mean, we... I mean, we changed a lot in our training. In a much better way. Of course. We should. I mean, it's... But... When you say, oh no, there is science says. It's evidence-based. And it's whatever. It's like... And it's better. It's like, great. Beautiful. Let's do it. Tell me how. Right? I mean, what I don't understand... I mean, you can talk about sport. This is just a sport. We need a sport. We need not. True. You know. But we proved in the sport. We proved in the police. We have now a sport history and a police dog history since over 100 years. So, I say police proved his work. We prove our work almost every day in the country. Yeah. And what you said, if I want to do anything wrong, if I want to abuse a dog, I don't need a pinch.

And there is no general suspect that the police canine handlers are animal abusers. So, the most of us prove the same in the sport. If you watch today's competition, the most of us prove that the dogs like what they do. If you don't... I mean, the rules change so much. If you have a dog which shows just pressure and avoidance, you're out. Yes. Which is a beautiful thing. So, we bring the proof. And we... I don't talk about sport because the argument would be we don't need sport. But I talk about police. We prove this every day that we train our dogs good because they fulfill their job. Yeah. And we don't kill the dog or we don't hurt the dog. We don't bring them to the hospital because after training. So, we prove it. And it's not that you open the crate in the police car and they're like, I'm not coming out. It's like, no. Let's go. Let's have fun. But my argument with the sport dogs is that the hobbyists, the people that train for sport, they also contribute. You know, like it's the whole community. We learn from everywhere. Like I'm sure as a sport trainer, you took some things and you're like, this we're definitely going to use in the police. And the other way around. Yes. Like that's how it should go. And I think all the canine science labs, they have to be part of this whole community. And we all work together and find out what is the best ways. But to exclude one, like I always, I'm kind of repeating myself, but one of the most fundamentals, fundamental biological programming, every living, even the single cell organism on our planet, always approaches something that they like and avoid something that they doesn't like. This is like a number one fundamental law in, at least in our planet. And to avoid something bad, ultimately it's a beautiful thing. It's important, you know. And when you are mastered to find a way how to do it, so you actually, the dog appreciates your knowledge and what you're teaching. Combined with everything else, why are we not looking into that, but instead we're saying, no, this is a very bad idea. There is a better way. But that better way, nobody shows you. How is it better? I mean, show me. I want to. I mean, I don't talk about scientists. You don't have to. No, I have no idea, you know, what they do and what they're not. But, but, but so, so we have in Germany, we have this many people with dogs. So we have the sport dog people. We have the police dog people. And for me, it's one, they follow almost the same interests for sure. And then we have the pet dog trainers on the other side. And then we have the animal right activities, which are totally crazy.

They have completely different agenda. But just for example, if a scientist and a pet dog trainer organization decides and tell me what the result of my work is, as a police dog trainer, that's for me ignorant and stupid. Yeah. That's all. All I have to say is ignorant and stupid. I mean, we have this pet dog training tradition in Germany. And then when I drove to my work, I drove about, you know, open fields, I see. Then you see all these dogs and we have this 45 foot leash on the dog. And I see this woman, this man walking with this dog on the 45 leash. So that's for me the proof of a pet training. Right. So they are not able to make a dog come if they call them. The main thing in all of my having dogs is I call them and they come back. So that's the proof of pet training. If they have to work the whole life with this leash on the dog. Right. Sometimes it's like in a Western cowper movie, they have to like the lasso, you know. And if these people will tell me, or not me, me as a group. The community. The community. That I'm not able to train a dog in a good way. They don't know what happens, you know. They are not even, they cannot even train a dog in an always nice context. Right. And we go back to the police. I mean, if we have operations, it's not even a training field always the same. Six blinds, three on the right, three on the left, the hurdle, you know. So a dog should work in all this different environment. And he should work so that we can trust him. Right. Right. As far as possible. And definitely, somehow the whole positive reinforcement narrative is that if you do certain things, that means you're training through punishment and fear. Yes. But. They don't know. Fear is sometimes very valuable. And fear doesn't mean that you, I don't even know how to explain this right now. Because. To be afraid, it's a healthy thing. Yes. I'm afraid of touching the oven, you know. Yes. That's normal. It's a very normal thing. And you actually, even when you are afraid of something, and when you teach how to overcome fear, this is, there is nothing more beautiful than this. This is like the most amazing confidence. It's like, hey, I just became somebody. Yes. And, yeah. And, you know, like we talk about fear, you know. I'm a person, I'm not so afraid of all things at all. But, when I still work with police, there are situations. In all situations, there is a little bit of excitement. Yes. And there are situations, there is more than just excitement. And nobody will tell you anything else.

So, and my job as a canine officer is to do this work with my canine. Right. And I'm excited. I'm afraid. So, my dog is excited. Same emotions. Of course. The people around me are excited. That's no sterile situation. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, I never know what my neighbor police officer will do in the next situation. So, my dog should be prepared for different things. He should be able to do this. And that's not about punishment. I mean, nobody wants to abuse a dog. But he should know what his job is to do. And it's not possible to get this safe without negative reinforcement. That's for sure nothing. That's the problem with extremes. One or the other, right? Yes. And these people who tell us this, this pet dog trainer organization, you know, they are not able to prove anything. The only proof I see is it does not work. I mean, that's, no, like it's not 100%, but it's, there are some good ones. But you see it so many times. And this is extremely difficult that people decide over us. And they don't even know what to do. And they, if we talked about this, if somebody, if you bring me somebody who will show me, okay, this will work in the same way. Just positive reinforcement. I will follow. It would be beautiful, no? Yes, for sure. I mean, we like. Right. Yes. Right. Very, very interesting. We changed our training a lot. I don't like to punish my dog. And I don't do. I will not punish my dog for no reason. It's different when you look at sports. And when you look and, okay, well, yeah, you don't need the sports. But dogs, the reason we have dogs and the reason we've had dogs for so many thousands of years is because they really serve us a purpose. They protect us. Like, it's our human nature. You have a dog and you want that dog to bark when something's going on. It's like one of the main reasons why probably, you know, cavemen ended up having dogs. It's like, oh, something's about to happen. And the dog tells you. So, then you go hunting with the dogs. You go, there's like the dog does the herding. There's like actual real purpose. And then we end up having dogs now that have no purpose in life. And that's the narrative almost in the force free and all positive people. And now from what I see from that legislations in Germany that most likely is going to end up rolling through another country because that's how it starts always. We have the animal rights and then we have the need. Like, you actually need, as a police officer, you need a dog that you can go on the street and you can trust that that dog's going to do something. But you also know that you can control that dog.

Not that it has to be afraid of you. That's not nobody ever thinks of this. And that's where it gets all twisted with the positive reinforcement ideologies that, no, no, you're only suppressing and you're making them do things from fear. There is no, if you make somebody to do something from fear, the moment they have a choice, they're not doing it. Yes, for sure. I mean. Right? Like we have so many times when as a protection dog trainers, we can put a dog in a corner and we can make him bite. But the moment that dog has a choice, he's not going to bite. Right. And so, right now from what I understood from the last papers is that you can use the prone collars for deployment to control them, but you cannot train them with it. And that blows my mind. That helps for nothing, you know. I mean, if I use it in an operation, I should have the chance to train it. That means you haven't actually trained the dog. Yes, yes. That's stupid. I mean, that's really known. And this is the politics of... I think for me the main problem is that all these things in Europe or maybe in the US, same. It's not about protecting animals. I think it's more about they won't... I mean, it's more about they don't want animals in private hands. Right. That's what I think. They want to get you rid of dogs. They make it difficult to have a dog. I mean, for sure we can talk about this, but I saw or I still see so many mentally abused dogs because the dogs are bred for some reason. And if you don't give him the chance... The outlet to do. Exactly. I mean, when I walk and I see all these animal protection ladies and men with their dogs and you watch these dogs, they are like zombies. You know, they have not... You watch their face and there's nothing like... They're lifeless. Yes. Yes. And then you take a dog and watch how he went in the dry field for obedience and he's like, wow, here I am. I mean, so if you ask both animals, what do you think? Is your life worthful or not? And one will say, oh, I mean, it doesn't matter what I do. Maybe I can die and others. That's my job to do. That's what I think, you know. And they will come, okay, then we don't breed these dogs anymore, but we have these dogs and they are here for a reason. I mean... Yeah, there is that argument that they kind of try to have that I don't think it's legit at all. Oh, you're selecting them to be mean, you're selecting them to be whatever. And that's not true because anywhere you look down the history, as long as you can track dog and human relationships, dogs have served as in all these ports and all these areas, they've already fulfilled those places. That's why...

And the coolest thing about it is dogs like it. They choose it. It's not that humans necessarily have changed their makeup to make them something. That's why we don't have tigers. Yes. We have dogs because dogs want to do this with us. And the moment we stop giving them a purpose, they're going to end up being these lifeless beings. That you walk them in these no-pull harnesses around the block and you feed them. And they're, of course, no dirt spades and they cannot breed and they cannot... They don't know even who they are. They just eat and sleep. It's a sad life. Sad life. But that's what they want us to have. And I think ultimately, even the most extreme, let's say if we keep going down that path, little by little we give in to that narrative, who's going to be next? Positive reinforcement. It's going to be, no, we don't care about your positive reinforcement. You should not train the dog. And the idea is dogs want to be trained and trained may be not the right word, but humans and dogs want to interact. And training is the way that we find a common language how to interact. That's really crazy when this discussion starts after June when this bylaw came out. So Maria, she's in a different Facebook group. She made this test for dog trainers, so she gets information about these groups. And in these groups there was this discussion too about this law. And I really could not believe how stupid people are. And stupid people, professional dog trainers, because this was groups for these dog trainers, pet dog trainers. And there was this, like all, you know, okay, my dog wants to chase a rabbit. My dog barks the whole day. Whatever, you know, all these main problems. And then the tenor of this group was, if you could not live with a dog chasing rabbits, jumping on people, barking, why you get a dog? You know, and I said, I cannot believe. I mean, that's really the most stupid thing I ever heard in my life. But maybe that's part of our next generation we have. I don't know. I mean. It cannot be. We have dogs as a companion in life. Right. We take care that our dogs behave well. But it's a mutual. It's like they really, I mean, dogs really think that they have that person, that purpose of, hey, you and I, we are together. And we, yeah, there is, there is other people, there is other dogs, there is other animals. They come to our house. We don't necessarily want everybody to come in our house. Or there is other dogs. Or there is other dogs that like that. And then it's a personal choice. But to take away.

And it becomes so twisted at this point right now to where somehow the idea is that we have taken dogs and we've made them mean. And they don't like other people or they don't. It's a normal, like, even for humans. I mean, that's why we have, like, there is a family. And that family eventually gets big enough to where that cousin and that cousin don't get along. It's totally normal. Then there is the village. Then there is the country. Then there is the few countries that they make a pact against few other countries. And that goes in the whole animal kingdom. You have it. You live. You go and observe any stray dogs, any wolves, any animals. Including even the most benign. Like, okay, I don't know what. Think of koala. Or you think of this cute little thing that only eats grass. They still going to fight with each other for who they're going to mate. Which tree belongs to which animal. It's a human and animal nature. And to pretend that this does not exist in nature, that's the biggest flaw in that fake science. That's the problem. I mean, for us it's difficult because it's difficult to explain what the spot we do. You know, there's always, if you try to explain, there's always the answer. Okay, but why? Right. Right. So it's my hobby. It's my hobby. Like, it's my hobby to drive my motorcycle. It's my hobby to go there. You know, it's a hobby. Okay, for sure. It's a hobby many people do not understand. But it's my hobby. And I think I should be free enough to choose my hobby as long as I do not disturb other people in a special way. And there is the difference between a dog wanting and liking to do it. We cannot make him anyway. He will not follow my hobby. We cannot make him anyway. No. No. No. And the dogs are there. And I just, in our hobby, we just give the dogs the opportunity to do in the kind of what they are bred for. Yeah. And so many times they will talk about how, I mean, that's always the big scare for me of, oh, let's shut the protection sports. There is no need for that. I think the protection sports are so valuable for selection of stable dogs and also for finding the best training methods and evolve as a finding, okay, well, that doesn't work. Well, clearly that doesn't work. Let's move on. But let's, why would we need to stop the whole training for protection dogs?

If you're able to control a dog in that high arousal, in that aggressive state if you want to, and you're able to come to an agreement to do something, if you've learned that skill, you can apply it on a sidewalk with a dog that's walking around and it's, oh, I'm going to fight with this dog. Oh, I'm going to tag the little kid on the rollerblades. Because all that training that's walking around and it's, oh, I'm going to do that. It makes us become better training dogs with competing reinforcers, with something the dog says, hey, I want to do that. I'm not going to listen to you. And somehow we find a very cool way to convince them to do it our way without being afraid, without being suppressed, without being stressed. That's, that's, that's, it's mind-blowing how that's not interesting to, to those people. How do you do that? What I said before, they, at the end, it's not about protect animals, it's about no animals. That's the thing. And one thing is for sure, if they take us, the sport and the opportunity to train the sport, protection sport. Right. Even hunting. Even hunting. Yes. Sled dogs, whatever, anything. The service dog system in the world will die. Mm-hmm. That's for sure. I mean, the police did not invent a new training method. You know, it all came from outside, from the sport trainers, from the hunting trainers. There are police officers, canine handlers, which are good trainers, but the knowledge comes from outside. The dogs come from outside. So, if they take us, the opportunity to train this dog, then we have to stop all service dogs. Mm-hmm. Not, not just protection dogs. I mean, like, like many departments or organizations use these hunting dogs for just detection work, you know. So, that's all out of this good training, out of this good genetic level of these dogs. Yes. So, yes. And that's what's for sure. There will be, never there will be the one without the other. I'm sure we have to change things because the world changes, but this must be for sure. Without this, that's not possible. Yes, and the biggest issue with this is that we don't have the honest conversation to find better ways. Instead of we are just saying that that's bad, that's bad, that's the way. That's not how, that will never work. That will never work. And, and. It's difficult. I mean. Like you and I are in very similar positions in some way. Like I have, I mean, you know, I, I have the school for dog trainers. They, I, I feel it's my duty to teach. Not to bullshit people, but actually to teach them. Hey, there is this way, there is this way. That's better sometimes. That's better sometimes. This you don't do.

And these are many reasons why you don't do. And I think in, in, in a lot of ways, me living in the States right now, I still have that freedom to openly talk and educate. But I'm thinking, what happens to somebody like you? You have, you have new handlers. They need to know. But now you have to follow certain laws that if you go against that, you're actually going against the law. And, and that's where it becomes very problematic because you, you are kind of forced to teach something that's not going to work. Where would we, how, how is it going to end? I mean, that's what we talked. If, if you show me the way, poor positive, yes, I follow. Why not? You know, and, and, and, yeah, but, I mean, these, these, these are two groups. They are so separated. That, that's, that's what I think, you know, it's, it's, there is not, nothing between. It's just this or this. And it's about the, the middle. Yeah. Because the middle is where it's at. That's the art of dog training. It's not to reject something. Yes, and that's what I think. If you prove me that you can do your job in this way, just let me do my job in my way. Right. You know, and I, I make sure that I don't abuse any animals. I don't abuse them. But, negative reinforcement is not about abusing a dog. Right. And this changed. I mean, you know, we had these sports many years and, and, and this was totally different 40 years, 30 years back. There was animal abuse. For sure. And that's the beautiful thing of evolution of getting better. Right. I, I really think we're at the point right now that we can, not, not everybody, but for sure a skillful trainer can train a dog through negative reinforcement all the way. Yeah. And when it's put into some kind of a study, you will not be able to tell which one is trained negative or positive reinforcement because, I mean, take, take the electricians. You go, you work with fucking electricity. You, you know, you know how not to get. Right. Right. And you go and you climb these big high voltage poles and you get big money. You don't, every morning before you go to work, you're not cheating yourself. It's like, oh my God, I'm going to die today. No. I know I need to be careful and I'm going to go and I'm going to make a big check. Does it matter if a dog is trained fully positive or there is no fully negative? Right. Right. Right. Exactly right. Or with a little negative, if both dogs feel the same at the end? Yes. I mean, for me, does it matter if I learn it this way or this way? If I'm good in what I do and I like what I do? That's right.

And that is like when we talk about real science, hundreds of studies done to where the brain doesn't care which way it is. If it's reinforcement, it makes you do something. And it's all rewarding because it's reinforcing. It's a bad, bad, bad agenda, but it's picking up speed. Good. So what, how, how, how, what, what do you guys think you're going to, how are you going to function now? For me, the old situation, you know, they always say, okay, but your dogs have no choice. You bring him. Yes. I have no choice either. I'm raised and live with negative reinforcement. If I don't work, I have no money. Every day. Negative. I don't need to work. I would be happy without work. I'm not, I'm not sad because I'm working, but you know, so I have no choice either. No, it's, it's, it's, it's the reality. The reality is I have no choice. If I want to have a normal life, I have to do things I probably don't like so much or less, or sometimes I have to do these things I hate. Quite a few European countries and it's the machine, that ideology, that narrative keeps pushing forward. And now, now we are at a point where we are in many countries in Europe certifying dog trainers. And in order to certify and be allowed, you have to, you have no choice. You have to go with the narrative to say that positive reinforcement is the only way. And in any other science besides dogs, this is laughable. Like any, I think they know, they have to know. But you know how many times I've tried to have one of those scientists that do the, those studies and they prove how this works better to have that conversation. Just give me two hours of your time and let me ask you some things. If you, if you make a study, if you feel strongly about something, you got to be able to answer questions. You got to be able to defend it. You got to be able to talk about it. Because I have questions. And it's not just me. We all like to train dogs. We all like to do it better. Show me the better way. Don't tell me that there is a better way, but how do I, how, how, where is it? And that's the cool thing, I think, about dog sports. Because when you go on the field, and no matter how you train, but if you consistently stay on the top of your game, people will be there from all over the world, they will be like, how do you do that? Teach me, show me, teach me, show me, teach me, show me. That's the natural way, right? And which leads me to another problem in Europe right now.

Because, of course, yeah, trainers will, they're in a very, very hard spot. Because right now, in a lot of ways, the positive reinforcement ideology can say, well, look, we ban all these things in Europe, and look at the dog sports that you talk about. They still can do it. How do you, what do you say to that? Now that's become tricky. Because you cannot, you know, say, well, but they still do it, but they don't, you don't know about it. And nobody, yeah, it's a very, very hard situation. Because we cannot, like, at some point in time, we are going to completely lose the battle of training dogs, or we're going to have to step up and say, hey, this is what we do. I mean, we did this big mistake when this ban of the e-colors came in Germany. Yeah. So sport is one thing, but go back to police. So we had some dogs, we trained with e-colors. Some. Not all. Right. And then this ban came. What did we do? We hide our training. Right. Like, that's for sure. I mean, this is not many years back. No, no, that's for sure. But that was the big problem that nobody of us, because, you know, this was my police dog, and I don't want to take him out because it's my dog. I like him. He's young. I want to work more years with him. And now from one day to the other, they took me the opportunity to train like I trained him before. And didn't give you another? Another option. Right. So, I mean, you know exactly when I start. At this time it was legal. When I start training with e-caller and I trained several times, I cannot go back. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, if I would change my whole training, the dog is dead. If I train three years and use e-caller for several situations, I need three years to retrain him. And this, that did not work. And this is what happened. We hide our training. Yeah. In some ways. And that was not just in Germany. That was... Everywhere probably. That was Austria. That was Switzerland. Because they were... I mean, they still are way more extreme than Germany. But everybody was like, oh no, this is just public relations. They make this big noise, but we're going to still be able to do what we do. And then it kept creeping more. Yeah. And so, you know, there was... At this moment, after a few months, there was a proof for our administration. Okay. We don't need e-caller. Mm-hmm. Nothing changed. Right. You know, this was the big lie at this moment. I think also... And we did not use e-caller for every dog. Of course. Of course. We just... I can tell you, it was me and other people, we just use it to keep these dogs in duty, in work. Right. If it was absolutely necessary. So we try...

I mean, the whole idea of electrical or any kind of... You must... It's not like you... There is moments in time that you need to... Hey. No. You got to do what I'm asking you to do. Even though you think you want to do something else, but you have to... Now, if the whole training is based around this, that's not dog training no more. Yeah. That's like a slave. That's just not what we do. Right. I think Europe lost because there was no social media at the time. That was... It wasn't... It was just starting. It wasn't enough to where people can voice their opinion. Maybe. And now it got to the point that Europe is stuck. There is already laws in place that you cannot say, hey, I do this and this is a bit... Because the moment if you do this now, you're in some way that's... I mean, it's against the law, so you're becoming a kind of criminal in this way. Yeah. But somehow that conversation needs to happen. And even if we say, okay, no, we ban electric colors. All right. What do we do? As you said, do we do with a 45 meter long line all the time? You know, like I went to... It was a couple of years ago and I made a video. It was crazy. It was... I was in Austria. It was some world championship. I can't remember. It's irrelevant which one it was. Up in the mountains, just beautiful open space, Austria. I mean, beautiful. The laws. Muzzle, leash, and the vaccination record. And guess what? You actually have cops in the woods controlling dog owners if they have muzzles and leashes on their dogs. Because it's against the law. Yeah. And so your dog, basically, you're telling me that if you live in Austria, the majority of the dogs can never run wild and free and never be a dog in this beautiful open space. That's what I think. They don't want a dog to be a dog. They want no dogs. That's the thing about it. It's complicated. I don't know. I think for sure in Germany there's a must of a conversation now. Yes. There's also, I think, okay, it's separate police and support. It's different topics. It should be. And I think it's important that our main club, the VDH, stands up and say, okay, listen, this and this is what we're doing in this and this way. And, you know, we have an animal abuse or an animal protection law since, I don't know, 40 years. Yes. And since 25 years, it's forbidden to abuse a dog. Thank God. Right? So, you know, there is no need. I mean, if I, if anybody abuses his dog, I kick his ass. Right. Fine. That's, you know, that's normal.

That's nothing to do. But now I think it's the time to, we will see if we can change. To be honest, the pinch, I mean, if they make an exception for whatever, I would not need a pinch. I would be happy if they give me the e-color back. Right. You know? Ultimately. And, and it's in, in Germany, when you, so what I talked, said before, the, there is the animal protective law and the bylaw is now with the pinch. In the animal protection law, there is a sentence, there's a chance that each state can decide about an exception of the e-color. Nobody used it until now. Right. So, if I'm not in the position, you know, I'm. Right. But if I try to influence the people over me and that, if we make an exception for whatever, give us e-color back. But see how it, it's all this local fights and wins and losses instead of just ultimately we all should use everybody's knowledge and get better and be honest and do the right thing for the dogs and for the people that own dogs. But, you know, the problem is the VDH has not the power, I think. The power now in Germany is with the police to go in this direction. The VDH has a problem just like all the, all the organizations in Europe. They don't care. And the FCI, working dog commission, they, they will bend over anything as long as they can keep their positions. And this is sad. And they don't care about protection sports. Of course not. It's just, it's just, for them it's protection sport is just a pain in the ass. And, you know, it's just, you know, I don't know, 1% of all the, the, the, the members of the FCI is, is a working dog part. So, they don't care so much. So, for me, then it's. And even if they, I mean, some of them care, but when they have to weigh the pros and cons of, do I have my little cool job as that person? Or do I fight for the rights for the whole community? No, I keep my job. Yes. Nature, human nature. Nature, human nature. But it, it's, all the, yeah, I, I'm probably, I don't know. I may be out of my mind, but I would be like, hey, people, we have selected those people to be the working dog commission of FCI. This means more than half of the world of working dogs, they're elected to educate and protect the rights of us, the dog trainers. And that's the last thing they do. Yes. The last thing they do. It's a, it's, yeah, I mean, if you think about, do this and I risk my job or I have trouble for two years and you, you know, maybe you act the same at the end. I don't know. And the crazy thing, the moment, the very moment something real happens. Hey, we need real dogs. We need real training.

All of a sudden, the homeopathy things are not working and you're going to the real doctor and you're like, what do we need to do? But it's a, it's a kind of sucks that we should be hoping for something really bad to happen to where we say, hey, we, we need to train the dogs. But it's, yeah, it will become difficult. Just this morning, I read an article in the German newspaper about the thing because it's big in the newspaper. Oh yeah. I mean, right now it's like a sensation. Okay. Like, okay. So this thing came out June. Then, I don't know, end of November. It was clear. Okay. Okay. There is nothing to change anymore. Until this point, we thought, okay, this will not come out. And then we have this 16 states in our country. And so all the chiefs of the police dog school, which is, which is the highest institution in this, in this canine thing. Because they have, so they meet usually once a year and so they are in contact. And so they made a Zoom conference, Zoom meeting, and they talked about this. And they said, yes, we have to take, talk with one voice. Yes, all is good. And I know exactly what happened. Because we have some states since years, they say, okay, we are the poor, positive police dog trainers. And I know exactly what happens. I know exactly like the one state that the police dogs, they have to come for certification to the school. If they come to school and the trainers say, oh, not so easy, they send this guy back and he makes certification back at home. Right. And you know. Exactly. What happens. And now I just read about in this newspaper, this two or three states I was thinking about. They may just keep distance now from this. Ah, we did this poor, positive since two or three years. And it's a poor lie. Right. Right. They do it official. It's a poor lie, you know. But that's kind of what's accepted. That's what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. There was a, you know, like in England. And the guys, he passed away. John Fisher, I don't know if you know, he's like a British force free at the like early 90s. And he was like, oh, we can train a dog all positive. It's like we, we, everybody that has trained dogs long enough, we all can agree that we can train a dog with all positive. But we cannot argue that there is limitations how far you go with that. He even wrote a book. He convinced some guy in the London, I think it was police. And they trained the dog. And it was all recorded positive. And he passed the police test. Okay. I mean, it's okay. Great. The problem is nobody else wanted to do it. And that tells you, you know, like that tells you right away.

Just like I keep saying this thing with, you know, we all had these flip phones at one time. But nobody had to force you to upgrade to a smartphone. But we have. Right. Because it's better. And, and anytime something is better, you don't need to pass a law to ban something else. Everybody's going to jump on it. Just show me the way. And we all going to go. I mean, we jumped on the more positive training. Everybody did. I mean, it was a, it was a cool thing. And we actually all got better. Yes, for sure. We got better. But with England, it's funny. You know, Thomas Baumann. Do you know this name? Did you ever? No, I don't think so. So, he was a canine handler in my state where I work. And then when the border opened, we had this program. So, he went over to the east part of Germany. And he got higher rank. And he was, I think he was chief of the dog training school in this state. And then he was in the ministry. He was, yes. He made his career. And then he stopped with police. And now he's a trainer. And he writes books. He writes, many years ago, write a book about police dog training. And now he writes books about behavior stuff. And, I mean, it's not, I don't, it's not, you know, the typical pet dog trainer. He also trains, you know, dogs with behavior. Yeah, some problems, some. And all his, mainly positive, you know, that's the job like we do. And he writes now about England. And he said he was in the commission, in the Paul commission for Germany, for this canine stuff. And this was 20 years ago. And he talked about England police dogs. He said, yeah, they are trained poorly positive. And he said in this, it was in Facebook. He said, yeah, the dogs passed the test. But, you know, in all the dogs there was a lack of desire to bite, a lack of, you know. So he said, for sure they passed the test. And he wrote it really nice, you know. It was really good. He said, nice things. And now in this article I read in the morning, they took him and said, yes, Thomas Baumann, which is a well-known expert. He said, the poorly positive dogs in England train passed the test. Yes. That's the cherry picking of, yes, of course. Do you know Victoria Stilwell, right? Yes. The British. And she has a school now and everything. And I wish I can talk to her. I mean, but she did a season on TV with police dogs. Do you know that one? No, no. No. Yes. Purely positive. And they train and they made the show and everything, right? That's where it ended. Yes. That's where it ended. Yes. I mean. Now, if you are actually good at something, and especially if you, even if you go on TV and you say, hey, we're training police dogs.

I can do it better than you. No. Imagine. All police departments will be, show us. Please. Yes. Teach me. Yes. Show me the easy way. I follow. But that didn't happen. And if you go to her websites or anywhere in her advertisements and schools, it's like, yeah, the positive and against show colors and all this, which is all fine. And I trained the police dogs or whatever city and it was beautiful. And we were so successful. No, you were not so successful. Successful means that everybody throws their flip phones and everybody from tomorrow, not a week, but from tomorrow has smartphones. Very easy. And you don't need to force nobody. It never happened. But somehow they are masters in having that conversation. It's kind of like, it's almost like the matrix, the blue and the red pills. Like, are you a good person or a bad person? Are you going to inflict pain or are you going to give a treat? Of course you're going to give a treat. Everybody will choose the treat. God damn. Such a... But it doesn't help. Like, if those people really want to help those, they at least have to understand that... It's... It's... It's... We are programmed to, once again, it's like we avoid something that we don't like. And there is a big use of that. And important in training, in touching, in society, in everything. I mean, we wouldn't... Like, you will be out of your job if positive reinforcement worked. Yes. That's how simple it is. You would not have a job as a police officer. There will be no jails. There will be no... Okay, it's nothing. Right? Like, we will manage society in a very different way. And that's proven not to work. So why not try to find... And I'm... Again, there's just horrible things. And you've seen them. And I've seen them. People do bad things. But people do bad things. Yes. No matter what you try to do, they will do bad things. Some people. I wish one day we have these conversations. And I hope this kind of podcast and talking everywhere around the world that we... You know... We want to train dogs. We like to train dogs. And the cool thing is dogs like to be trained. Yes. That's their life. Life. And it's not that we manipulate them in some weird ways and they have other choices. Like I... In my school, like we have videos. I have like Ice, my dog that I compete with. He breeds a female. The day before. Then the next day, I bring him on the field and he sees the same female. And he has no shell collar, no prone collar, nothing. And I say, dude, what do you want to do? You want to breed? And he's a... I mean, it's not his first time that he's bred. It's like a stud dog. He's six years old. He's bred plenty.

There is a female in standing here that he bred the day before. He has no... Nothing that can force him. I'm like, you want to stay with her or you want to go on the field to play and train? And he comes with me. Yes, yes. And then we're done with training. He rests and he goes and he breathes. That's something to be, you know, to... Like, if I am a scientist, I will be like, okay, what are you guys doing? How do you get this kind of relationship? Because it's clearly you're not forcing him to do that. He wants it. And he wants it more than his biological need to reproduce. Which is the most... Why don't we not share that knowledge? Why don't we get better that way? Right? I think it's too divided. That's what I think. That's people. That's where we are. I mean, and we're talking dogs, but the whole world is... Who knows? Meta universe now. The kids will not train dogs no more. They'll be... Probably not. But at least... I don't know. So, I think we did a long, long talk. Yes. And I'm super happy. And thank you for that. Like, as I said, it's been a dream of mine to do this podcast with you. Because we always have these conversations and it's very cool. So, yeah, I'm gonna list everything, you know, credentials and ways to contact you. So, people, I'm sure, will be very interested for many reasons. Being police, being training, being judging, being like... I mean, it's such a... I mean, there is like a total package, you know? Yes, yes. So, very, very much appreciated. Thank you for joining me to this conversation. Thank you. All right, Marcos. Take care, guys. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.