에피소드 59: Dr. Orion

Matt, we have so much to talk and you're right. It's not, you know, the other side of the aisle. It's not. We just have different takes. We see things. We have disagreements and some are pretty strong. I highly doubt that we're going to convince each other today of anything. Yeah, probably not. Correct. But what we can do is we can at least present the different sides and allow people to make their choices and hopefully do some research on their own. And if that's of interest, right? Because it's not everybody's dish. So how, like, how do you see what is the connection between dog training and veterinary behavior? It's so as far as I know. And I can, you know, I can definitely speak for myself and speak for colleagues that I'm much more familiar with. I don't know. I don't know. Every single veterinary behaviorist out there or more specifically, behavior specialist, veterinary behavior specialist. And maybe we should make this distinction between the terminology. Please. Because I do think it's important. A veterinary behaviorist is kind of like a more or a behaviorist in general, right? It's a more general definition. I know that some will use that terminology for people with a PhD and not necessarily veterinarians. Even if, you know, their PhD was about veterinary or animal behavior, but they're not veterinarians. I think many years ago, the late Dr. Sophia Yin said that a behaviorist is either a diplomat of something like the American College of Veterinary Behavior, so a specialist. There's also a European and Australian college. There are different colleges around the world. So, um, or is someone that is kind of like a PhD in, in the field, but everyone technically, as far as I know, legally can say that they're a behaviors, even a dog trainer can say that he is a behaviorist. I was just going to say that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, cause you know, we, we all do behavior to some, to some extent. Behaviorist. Yeah, no problem. Behavior specialists or sorry, specifically veterinary behavior specialist. The only people that can use that term and it's a law, right? I mean, it's, it's something that if someone is calling himself a veterinary behavior specialist and he's not, he's actually doing something against the law. Right. Those are only people that did a residency, studied and treated dogs for usually a minimum of three years and a minimum of something like 400 dogs that they treated. And of course submitted, uh, published a paper, a scientific paper and, uh, case reports. And, uh, passed a very long and hard test. Uh, and only they are allowed to call themselves veterinary behaviors.

Doesn't, I'm not saying that, you know, PhDs are worse than veterinary specialists, but it's important to know that the terminology is very different. And, um, yeah, I mean, for sure, no, that was, we were just trying to kind of differentiate between the, the different levels of who, who, who calls themselves behaviorist and the different degrees of, of knowledge, year spent and, and, and so on. And then clearly, um, at least in United States, the top of the, um, as far as you can go, that would be the, um, um, um, the American college of veterinary behaviorist. I think that's probably the most demanding and the most, um, let's say that there's actually a legal, in a way, a legal definition for it. Right. Than anything else. And you have much, much more, I mean, like in a, in your, I, and that's kind of sounds almost wrong to say, but just for the sake of conversation, um, like, like your basic veterinary school, probably what, like you have like a lecture or five, uh, on, like there is nothing really in depth. Some schools, yeah. And there are studies about that as well, but some schools, sadly, even nowadays that we know how important behavior is for everything for the wellbeing. We know that dogs with behavior issues are very likely to be surrendered to shelters and euthanized. Right. Uh, sadly, some schools still don't have any behavior lectures or courses. Uh, it is getting better and better. But let's say that when I was a Venn student, uh, many years ago, we only, and I think that that's still kind of like the norm. There's only one course in most cases, like one semester. It teaches the basics and basics, usually, you know, like learning theories. Right. It does go like quick and dirty about the medications and stuff like that. But, but yes, it is true that most veterinarians don't have a broad enough understanding of veterinary medicine. Yeah. Sorry. Veterinary behavior medicine. Uh, and well, but that's why we have the, the next level, right? Cause it's like some, some, some veterinarians are just not interested in and it's not a, yeah, it's just not emphasized and that's fine. Yeah. A lot of them are afraid just because of how complex it is. And actually I'll go back to your original question about like behavior specialists and dog trainers. Most or all of the behavior specialists that, that I know, including me usually work with a trainer. Usually it's either, for example, I think that most of my referrals actually come from dog trainers, not, not from other veterinarians, but actually from dog trainers.

And even if they do come to me from a veterinary, another veterinarian in probably 90% of the cases, I will actually tell them that they should reach out to a dog trainer. And not because I don't think that I know how to train dogs and, you know, cause I did learn it, but I just, you know, the time that needs to be spent with a trainer and the way that trainers actually work with the owner one-on-one and with, of course, the pet is very much different to the way that most of us specialists work. Right. Cause we mainly do a consultation. It's more like sitting with a psychiatrist in a psychiatrist, psychiatrist in a room and talking and then, you know, seeing how the dog behaves and all of that. It's let, and then we do give recommendations. Right. But they're usually in some, depending on the case, of course, but many times they might be too broad and you still want them to go to the trainer. Correct. So as far as I can tell, as far as I know, we work hand in hand with dog trainers. We're not trying to replace trainers. Yeah. Very, very, um, uh, I'm fully aware of that. Um, I know that we are so short on time. Like we're not, I mean, hour and a half is plenty of time and I really appreciate that you, you were able to scramble and make it work this way. Cause I, um, after you've seen my podcast, I kind of like to take it super slow and rumble back and forth. And, and today I'm, I had to prepare myself. Like I have notes all over my desk here, which is super unusual. I mean, worst case, if people like it, we can always meet again. Very cool. I I'm sure we, we should, let's see how it goes. Of course. Let me tell you a little bit about, um, um, because it is just something that we, I don't think it's ever even come up in podcasts or anything that I do. Um, but I, I came in, in the States in like early nineties. I took two courses in Cornell and it was, um, you know, um, dog training and dog behavior. And it was, uh, um, I mean the people that I will tell you, of course you, you, they're very know, they're just top of the leaders of it, of the industry. Um, Dr. Katrin Haupt, uh, Soraya, uh, Jurava Diaz, uh, Ilana Reisner and so on. Yes. So I'm, trust me when I tell you, I have taken a lot of time in my life to study. I do not have the PhD, but I don't watch soap operas. I do not like, all I do is books and courses and webinars. And believe it or not, I probably have seen more, uh, um, what was it? The, the American college webinars that they've had done most veterinarians do. And when they do it, some of them, just like in the dog training world, like you will have

police officer that goes to a workshop just because it's their job and they have to, they don't have any interest. They're just, it's a payday. So I know that a lot of veterinarians perhaps do the same. Some are super interested and some do it just because they have to. Well, in my case it's voluntary. So I, I'm really like, I studied this stuff. So I don't want you to, to think that some, you know, like, uh, like whenever we get into the discussion, I will try to really back up my claims and my reasoning behind what I'm saying. But I just kind of thought that it's important to mention that as much as I'm in dog training, I am very, very interested. And I believe that I'm very up to date on what goes on. Yeah. No, no, I know. You know, I watched also like in preparation for our meeting today, I also watched a lot of your videos and, you know, I did see the people that you had, uh, on, on the podcast before me, including, you know, people that I wish I had the chance to speak to, you know, like people like, uh, Dr. Mech, uh, that, you know, that, that everyone still quotes the alpha theory and, and, uh, alpha wolf and stuff like that. And also on your podcast is saying like, Hmm, that's not exactly how you need to use it, but you know, great scientists and, and, uh, yeah. So, so trust me, I know. Yes, very good. Um, what, uh, like, I know we're going to hit the SSRIs. We're going to hit electric collars or shock collars, whatever we're going to call it. But what are, what are like dog trainers, like not, not in the medical sphere, but, but actual dog trainers that you not necessarily look up to, but, but they're like, you can say, well, this is somebody that I trust that they have knowledge that they treat the dog with ethically and so forth. Mm-hmm . So what am I looking for? No, who comes to mind, like in, in, as far as like in the dog training field. I mean, if, if somebody does, if not, it's no problem. Oh, you mean like celebrity dog? Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, you know, like we can agree. Okay. Well, just as you mentioned, Caesar Milan time and, and the way you said it, I already know how you feel about it. Yeah. So like on the other side, who, who is the person that comes to mind? Right. So I would say again, people like Susan Garrett that, that you also had online, uh, on the podcast. Um, not everything, but there is, I forgot her last name. I think her first name is Emily. Uh, her YouTube channel is a Kiko Pop. Oh yeah. Kiko Pop. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But, but yeah, if you Kiko Pop by itself, some things that Zach George does, not everything.

Uh, and even, uh, uh, uh, uh, Steelwell, I think her name is. Yeah. Victoria. The British. Okay. Yeah. Victoria Steelwell. Okay. So yes, mainly the, um, you know, what's considered the reward based trainers. Yeah. I still work with, with trainers that are not reward based. You do. But I do. You surprise me here. I don't send anyone away. You know, again, they, they, even they come to me. I tell, look with this dog, in some cases we can, we can like, you know, have a debate if it works, uh, for, for every dog, but the dogs that I usually see in most cases, their aggression, if we're talking about aggression and that's actually the most common thing that I see is due to fear aggression. And in those cases, for example, using something aversive, something that scares the dog or hurts the dog even more has a very high chance of making things even worse. So in those situations, of course, I will tell them, look, I think that in this case, we shouldn't be using this technique. Um, so, you know, I don't publicly, yes, I am trying to kind of push people more into the reward based training because they, you know, kind of like what you mentioned before the, um, the apps of the American veterinary society of animal behavior is, and of course our college, the, um, and by the way, I'm not representing them. I'm not, uh, I mean, in a way I am representing them, but not officially. Right. Yeah. Correct. But in, in, I am actually a member of the AF sub, nobody is paying me. Uh, I actually pay them to be a member. Uh, same goes for the American college of veterinary behaviors. And we try to rely on the most current, but actually also very old, uh, scientific data. And right now, most of it, or at least the better studies do show that the reward based training seems to be more effective, more effective in more cases. Okay. Again, later we can discuss other studies as well. Yes, yes, yes. I would love to know you, you just got my respect for, for the fact that you will not turn away somebody, regardless of how they see the industry and their understanding. If they're coming to you to search for help, you are willing to do that. And, and, and you just, uh, um, you have my respect for that a hundred percent, um, because this is not the case. And I can tell you from my personal experience, I've had, uh, I've had some difficult dogs. Um, I am quite well off where I am in my life. I do not need to train dogs. The only reason I train dogs is because it is something, something has to come to me that is incredibly interesting and challenging to the point that I would not be able to sleep

at night and I would go and open all the books again. And I will, I will just like, my mind will just get excited. Yeah. But that's not always, you know. So anyway, um, when I have a case like that, I always try and I have tried a few times to work with a, um, veterinary behavior specialist. And one of, and I'm not, there is no point to, to mention names and this is pointless because it's not, it's really not a personal thing. And I understand, uh, the reasons behind why would you accept or not accept. And, but it was just disappointing to me that, um, it was a very, very, yeah. Um, one of the, the most influenced people, um, board director, um, just looked at my Facebook or whatever social media. It's like, I don't think we can work together simply because, uh, and, and, and I started, I didn't hide, of course. I mean, there's nothing, I'm not ashamed of who I am and what I do. I, I can argue with anybody that I love dogs and I'm passionate and I would do anything. We just don't agree on, on certain things, but that's fine. Um, but, um, when I, when I approached them, it was very honest. I, I am like this, who I am, this is what I do. But, I'm willing, I want to help this dog and I'm willing to do like exactly by, like, no, you will have no better client than me because I will do it exactly how you want. It's good for my experience. I want to experience that side for one. Um, and of course, if, if we're going to help the dog, why not? I mean, why not? Right? I mean, that's the goal. That's, that's what we all want. That was upsetting. That didn't work out. Um, eventually I have worked with a local specialist again. Um, and, and, and, and, you know, yeah, pretty good, but it's not the norm. It's, it's a, there is a thing about, well, if you're using a verse, if we cannot work with you, that's a, that's a, it lingers always around. I mean, I'm not, I'm not sure. I never did a survey, right? So I can say that for sure. I mean, I can tell you that again, most of the behavior specialists that I know will not send away someone just because he's working with a trainer that works in a specific way. They might try to educate. Cause again, even me, I'm saying that my preference is the reward based training. He's the force free training, positive reinforcement, whatever you want to call him. Right, right. Yeah. That's, that's, you know, that's, that's my preference as well, but we try to educate. We try to see what works best and how we can actually be on the same page. I do admit that, you know, if I get a dog again, like let's say an example of an aggressive

dog and he's fearful, then that's the cause for the aggression. And the owners are very adamant about shocking him every time he growls, for example, it concerns me because, you know, let's, let's kind of for a second, I'm going to jump to something that we're going to discuss a bit later, but let's say the dog, we also thought that the dog needs some sort of medication, some sort of behavioral medication, psychoactive medication. I don't want the owners to think that that's the treatment, that it's like a magic drug that's going to fix everything. And because the behavior modification part, the environmental management is in most cases so much more important than using those psychoactive medications. And if I have someone that does something that I really like training wise, doing something that I really think is going to basically prevent us from reaching. Correct. Probably not a resolution, an improvement of the problematic behavior. And if I have someone that I really like to think about, I think, I think that's the end result. Correct. Correct. Exactly. And it's going to be the way a waste of their time, a waste of their money. And then they're going to end up maybe even upset about me and might start saying, you see, we told you that that medication is BS. Medications don't work. Yeah. They don't. Again, it's not like a magic thing, right? It's not like a one and done. So, yeah, even if it's the best and it's the right medication, if we don't do the rest of the stuff correctly, we're not going to get results. And that's very important to know about using medications. Yeah. No, I am very, very, very well put here. Okay, Ori, let's, I guess, we can really start with pretty much with your reply to what I said on my channel as far as the difference of, and like for anybody that hasn't seen this, we will put links to those. But in a nutshell, I was just saying that, you know, I do appreciate veterinary behaviors, but there is, there is certain line that we, one industry knows more than the other. And, and, and I do have problems with the SSRIs in particular, and psychotropic and mind-altering medications. And so then Ori made a, I made a funny cartoon, and of course it's a cartoon, and I hope you understand that. But there is, even though it's a cartoon, just like any comedy, there is actually a lot of truth in it. And what I mean by truth is my truth, and you disagree with that. And that's kind of how we came to talk about it. Yes. And so in your explanation, and I really kind of, you know, I really appreciated how you

did it, because I felt like you were talking, like you genuinely were talking to me. And I don't know if that was the case, but anyway, it was, it was different for me, and it was cool. Yeah, it was. I mean, you did write there at the end that, you know, you would like to discuss it with someone who knows. Yes. Yes. Hopefully I am that someone. Yes. So, let's go, the first thing, and maybe not the first that you said, but one of the important things that you brought in, is that the SSRIs bring serotonin level to normal, and make the brain work normally. Yes. So, my question that I hopefully we can unpack somehow. What, where is the scientific definition of what is a normal serotonin level in dogs or in humans? Right. Let's start there. It's a good question. I hope, because you know, I'm trying to kind of like, just pull out the studies from my head. Technically, we don't have tons of studies in animals. You know, usually a lot of what we deal with is kind of like used from the human side of things. But you mentioned Dr. Ilana Reisner, which is also a behavior specialist. And as far as I remember, it was her study that actually checked the levels of different neurotransmitters or different, let's say, products of neurotransmitters in the blood, not in the brain. In the brain, you know, it's, there's no real way to measure what's going on right now in the brain without basically killing them. I mean, you can measure electrical activity, but we can't measure proteins to that level yet. It's something that I think in the future is going to be something that we'll be able to do. But right now, usually we kind of measure the blood and saying that there might be some. But we have to agree that measuring serotonin in blood level, level serotonin in blood, it's not a good measure to guess. I can't tell if it's good or not good. But sadly, you know, that's basically what we have. We have different things like that, BDNA. Right. So, so what I'm going with this is that, and I really, I have, as I say, I try to search and especially nowadays with all the AI options. Yeah. There is, there is like, it's almost impossible to hide a study. Right. Like even if it's done 1937 or yesterday, and it's done by one person that nobody knows, a certain program will pull it out. Yes. And I have done, tried this for, for many years. And now with, of course, with the modern opportunity with AIs and, you know, I still do. I have not found anything that can back up that claim. And, and, and what I'm saying, like, if there was a study, I don't, I don't find it with dogs, with animals or with humans.

And what that actually checks, and I'm trying to, you mean, the, just as I was saying the, what is the normal serotonin level and how do we measure it? Yeah. Right. So that's a big problem. That's kind of like, you know, we go with correlation many times. Right. So with an actual number, but that's also true for, sorry, for any measurement in the blood. Right. Cause for one animal, T4 might be between this and this, the thyroid level for an animal, other, another one, it's going to be different. So we also go with correlations, for example, here between the blood and the brain. And we see, okay, in dogs or in people that are anxious or depressed, we see that when we measure those serotonin levels in their blood, they're lower. And then if we compare them to another group that doesn't complain about aggression or about depression or about that. So again, there is correlation, not necessarily, we can say for sure, but that's, that's how we go. So we also do clinical studies to try and see if using the medication that is supposed to increase serotonin or other neurotransmitters to see if it's actually changing the behavior. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So even these studies are, are, you know, there, there is two that come to mind and, and they are heavily based on, on, on our survey, which we know very well what, what that means. Um, and, and what I was really looking forward to is if there is any evidence, I'm not interested in the theory. We know the theory. It's been said. Yeah. Like you can go to any vet clinic and you can get any pamphlet or you can watch TV and it will show up. Mm-hmm. We, we know the narrative. Yes. And we know the theory and we know the hypothesis behind, but, but the actual evidence that's interesting to, to see. Um, you said that we prescribe SSRIs based on what we think is lacking. Yes. Yes. So if no test confirms deficiency, aren't you just guessing instead of practicing evidence-based medicine? No, not necessarily. Again, it's also the same in human medicine when, when it comes to behavior issues, right? If we see specific problems that are known to be associated with what we think is the lack of a specific neurotransmitter or an access of another neurotransmitter or brain activity or something like that, then we choose the medications accordingly. Again, the same in people. If you, even if you go and look in, in the human scientific literature, basically it's the same. They don't have studies that can actually measure those things. So you want to say that basically we're guessing. Yeah. Yes. In a way. Yes.

I, I admit that in a way we're guessing, but it's, let's say in a way educated guesses. And again, seeing the response in, even in surveys, uh, seeing the response to specific treatments does give us some proof. And you can say the same thing about not even just medications, right? I mean, how do you decide if using the shock collar is effective or not? You see that the dog is not showing the behavior anymore. We'll get, yes. Correct. Correct. Very true. So you, you kind of go back and forth and I do too, between human psychiatry and veteran behaviors. Uh, because, uh, well, for one reason, the, the, there is not much with dogs that's done, but I can argue that what is done with humans, it's also very questionable and it's becoming to a tipping point that we need to start to think of something, have a, at least reevaluate our perspective, even, even with humans. Um, as I said, I, I do follow, uh, uh, some big names in human psychiatry. I talk to them and as a matter of fact, as I was telling you, we're living to go to a, uh, a championship in Greece in, in two days. Tomorrow, the podcast that I was telling you that I'm going to have is with one of those people. Um, and, and of course I like to have people like yourself that will challenge my ideas and that I will able to challenge. And maybe we, of course we don't agree with each other, but we walk out with some, something to think of, right? Um, well, the, the person that I'm going to have tomorrow, he is very much on, on my side of things. Um, maybe I needed a boost of confidence after talking to you. Okay. Uh, um, so, but again, we, we don't have tests to, to confirm deficiency. We don't have it in humans. We don't have it in, in the dogs. We don't have it in animals. Now, as far, as far as I know, no, no, here is something in the brain itself. Again, not, not in the brain. Correct. And if we say that we trust the correlation between what's going on in the blood or even the study that you were involved with that had a measurements of cortisol in it. And by the way, the study that I did, uh, for my residency also tried to use cortisol as, you know, a ma, a measure of stress and, and behavior and stuff like that. We do with what we can without actually harming the dog. Right. Um, so, so yes, it's, it's a kind of like complicated. It is super complicated, super complicated because like, I, I totally agree with you with the dog situation, but you have a human that it's, I mean, they, they can go in a MRI and stay for an hour if they think that, I mean, they, they will do whatever it takes to, to get their mind fixed. Right.

And, and even so, you know, there are actually, sorry, sorry that I'm cutting you in the middle, but there are actually studies, behavioral studies that done on awake dogs with functional MRI. So you can actually train dogs. Uh, the one that comes in mind. They did a lot in Budapest. Uh, the, um, what was the name of the center? I'm so bad with names, but yeah, there, there's like a few centers. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I think I know what you mean. But for example, I saw one that I remember that I think they checked, uh, dogs ability to sense. A heat, if I remember correctly. Yeah. It was an emotional states. And then, uh, what part of the brain activates or exactly if, if they hear a familiar voice versus some, you know, so, so there was a lot of correlations that were not surprising at all. Coming out. Uh, it's definitely not as easy as doing it in person, in, in people. Uh, we still don't have, as far as I know, the ability to measure the actual proteins, the actual, um, you know, serotonin or norepinephrine or things like that. Uh, we're like the amount of that in the brain. But you know, again, the, the, uh, me personally, I don't think that that's the most important thing. I actually think that studies that show that there is or isn't a response or improvement with the medication in case we do choose to use it are more important than quantifying things. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, I have a, so one of the other questions was that, uh, the, the, you mentioned that low serotonin level causes aggression, anxiety, fear, and so on. Yes. Yes. And, and, um, I'm not sure, but, um, perhaps if, if you are aware of studies where serotonin depletion was artificially induced in humans. Uh, I have no idea. Yeah. Truthfully, I don't know if. It's, uh, I, I will, I'll, I'll put links to this and I'll, I can send you an email because they're, they're very interesting. I have it, uh, again, as I said, like I'm trying to simply because of time restring, I, I, I'm, I don't want to miss things. So I, like my, I've never had a desk like this around me right now. Um, but anyway, what was very interesting and this was done as they, they started to kind of really pay attention and question how, how the whole thing works. And is, is it just big pharma machine or, or, you know, the stories. So this is done, um, it was published in, uh, Springer nature 2024. So it's very, very current. Yeah. And, and basically what they did, um, they reduced level of serotonin in healthy people. Mm-hmm. And guess what? What? Nothing happened. So I, I can answer that or at least. But you can see the challenge where I'm taking you, right?

Oh, no, no, for sure. Okay. Again, it's, uh, let's start, you know, let's, let's start with this question. The study is called difficult by the way, cause it's interesting. Cause the title is very, you know, how titles matter as always. Yes. It's also like a clickbait. Of course. So the title says difficult lives explain depression better than broken brains. I think it's a beautiful title. It is. And, and by the way, I completely agree with it again. Um, it's, and, and you know what, that's actually something that that's important to know, but you know, it's hard for me to actually respond to that specific paper. Cause, cause I never read it, but let me, let me actually ask you like a quick question first. Cause we, you just mentioned that we can't actually measure serotonin. Did they do something to measure it? I mean, how do they know that they actually reduce the amount of serotonin in the brain? Yeah. Did they say? Uh, yeah, yeah. They, I mean, it's a, it's a pretty big, uh, a thing. I, uh. Cause you know, if they also measured, you know, some of the, of the metabolites or something like that in the blood, then you can argue the same way that you argue about what I mentioned. Good point. Good point. Um, again, um, I, I, I'm pretty sure it, it is here. Uh, I just don't want to spend the time. So let's, let's not waste our time. But we can table this one and definitely get to this. I, I, I, I'm really interested to, to learn about that. A hundred percent. Cause again, human medicine, the brain is the brain. It's a hundred percent. Similar between dogs and, and, and people and cats and other animals. Now, but what I would like to say, and that's, that's really important. Cause it's very important. For example, to know that the name SSRI. So for people that don't know, it's selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. So it sounds like, oh yeah, it's selective, right? It's selective for serotonin, but in reality, it's not that selective. We actually have an effect on more than one, uh, neurotransmitter when we're using those selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. So, and by the way, there are differences between the different medications. So Prozac is just one example. There are other medications. Some of them are more selective to serotonin, but less selective to noradrenaline and orpinephrine. And while others might be more, less selective for serotonin, but more selective to, uh, something else. So even, and that's another reason that probably those different medications work differently on, on patients. Cause it's usually not just one thing that's missing.

It's usually, or one thing that's not working normally. So for example, maybe if we reduce the serotonin, but other things are not affected, maybe it might still be able to kind of like function normally. And it's kind of like a specific balance that might be between the different things that are going on in the brain. Again, I can say too much about that specific study, but I will say that the brain is such a complicated machine that I don't think that even if we could measure the, the levels of, you know, the different neurotransmitters in the brain, I'm not sure that even then we would be able to know if and when specific medications might work better than others. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I can see that. Um, you said something interesting and, and I mean, of course I, I have it, we go there, but since we just mentioned that we can just go over that one quickly too. Um, something missing in the brain, right? So, so like what's missing, are we speculating or do we know what's missing? Because if we're speculating, then, um, yeah, we're, we're talking about beliefs, not like biological evidence. So, so if, if you ask, uh, I'm sure the, uh, the psychiatrist that you're gonna speak to tomorrow, uh, we'll be able to even pull out, uh, some, some of those studies. Um, and there are studies again, they're, they're done post-mortem, right? They're not done on real life people. Cause you can't measure those. You can measure things in the brain, those types of things in the brain. But, you know, they did test all kinds of brains from serial killers and, and, you know, people with chronic depression that committed suicide and stuff like that. So we do know some of these things. Does it accurately represent what's going on in the life person? Not necessarily. Right. Right. We, we, we think it does. We do believe it does. Otherwise we wouldn't be using those medications. But again, I would say that to me, and I think, uh, and although it is very important, how the. Biological process actually works and, and, you know, to know why we're using the medications that we're using. There is. To me, a big, important kind of like I had said before, is it actually. Achieving anything. And of course the side effects. If I believe that the side effects have. More. You know, are, are going to affect the patient more than they're going to actually help. Him. There's no way in hell that I'm going to use it. If I think that the benefits are higher than the, uh, the, you know, the downside, the side effects, then I will recommend using it. And not in every single case. Yeah. Yeah. You made that clear.

And I, and that's very, I, I believe that's the case with everybody. I don't think, um, uh, like, okay. There is, there is no doubt. There is just no doubt that, uh, um, it's overly used in humans and it's headed that way with dogs. And I will explain why I'm saying that because I, I, I, I have. By the way, I agree with you. Okay. I actually agree with you about that being overly used in dogs and cats as well. Yeah. It's, it's, it's amazing how we dispense meds, you know, and, and, and AVSB and the human psychiatrists, you just do a very, very good job at convincing owners or patients that they are safe and effective. Uh, that that's a, you know, you have to, otherwise would you prescribe it? Of course you wouldn't. You, you have to believe that they are. So you prescribe it. Yeah. But again, believing versus actual evidence is two different things. And we get there. But we do have evidence. That's the question that I'm going to have for you because I searched for that. Uh, I, I mentioned something and I know that that was what really triggered our meeting. And that was the dogs on meds are, uh, uh, well. Yeah. You said that they basically, they are numb. Right. And you, your response was dogs on meds are happier, not numb. Exactly. That's the goal. Right. So here is, and, and, and trust me, this is not a tricky question. It's a very honest question that I have for you. Yeah. How do you objectively measure increased happiness in a sedated or emotionally flattened dog? Is less energy really the proof of greater wellbeing? Okay. Because you were mentioning hyper anxiety and activity and so on. Right. Right. Um, so first, by the way, just the, you might know about this book, but you know, if anyone is interested and again, I'm not getting any money from anyone. I'm just doing it for the sake of, uh, if people want to learn a bit more, but I would say this is kind of like the, our Bible, the veterinary psychopharmacology. Uh, of course we also use other books. We use, uh, uh, Stahl a lot. I actually have the book here somewhere. You do? Yeah. Of course I do. No, no. Uh, and we have, you know, Stahl, which is kind of like the human, uh, the counter books. Cause you know, there is always a counter. Yeah. Anyway, let's not waste time. No, no, no. But, but, but again, I am the way that we decide if the medication is working or not, uh, in not actually causing side effects or basically just numbing or flattening the dog out. So of course, you know, we know it according to what the owner and the owners are reporting. If, for example, I tell the owners and, you know, there are some side effects that might

actually happen in the first, if we're talking specifically about, let's say SSRIs, some side effects that might be much more common in the first two weeks because of how the medication itself works and the changes that actually take time and the changes in receptors and all of that in the brain. And because by the way, and that's also important, uh, cause the way that I explained it is not, is not entirely correct. Uh, SSRIs don't just increase the serotonin in the brain cause then you don't need SSRIs. You need to take serotonin and maybe that will come like go into your brain. They actually change the receptors in the brain and they, they change specific receptors in the brain, which will have the, the behavioral effect. And, um, let me, can I stop you? Cause you said something interesting here, you know, like you, you, um, which is kind of, it's always a big question. And again, this is, I'm taking this straight out of human, uh, the, the challenge that the human psychiatry has, you know, like, like if we can, we can increase sybnautic serotonin levels and, and, and we know, as you said, that it could take two to four to eight weeks, whatever that time period is, but it's like, it takes a little time for them to kick in. Right. Yes. Um, so why is that? Because the evidence is that the serotonin level rises within hours after the medication is taken, but it takes four to eight weeks. That's, that, that's actually very, very interesting. And, uh, again, if you really want to go into the mechanism of it, I mean, maybe layman, cause we have a different audience. Like I would love to hear it. If someone wants to dig a little bit deeper, I would go with the book by Stahl, the psycho, uh, pharmacology book. That's a human psycho pharmacology book by Stahl. Uh, basically it's because we're not just, I mean, yes, we're increasing the serotonin at the beginning, but the actual effect is by affecting different five HT and serotonin receptors. And some of them are inhibitory receptors and some of them need to be basically produced. So the, at the beginning, we actually have a very high levels of serotonin, which might attach to the inhibitory receptors will, which is more associated with, and again, I'm trying not to overcomplicate things because it's, it's complicated, but basically because they attach to specific receptors in the synapses, they cause those side effects. And by the way, they're serotonin in, uh, receptors in other parts in the body, not just the brain. So again, they might have other side effects because of that effect and the changes in the

amount of receptors and the sensitivity of those receptors that, that changes take longer. So that's why at the beginning, when we actually have very high serotonin because of the medication and all of that, we see side effects, uh, that are more common in the first two weeks. Then usually we'll see that the side effects are improving, but not necessarily see the actual clinical effect. The clinical effect itself takes between four to eight weeks, like you mentioned. And that's, again, that's because of the actual changes in, in the proteins that are produced and create those receptors in the, in the synapses. And that takes a few weeks and only then we'll see, but going back to your original question about how we actually know if it's working or not, then, uh, side effects. Well, not how, how we, if it's working or not, but when we say, when we say, the question is how, how do we measure that happiness increased? Yeah. How do we measure improvement? Do we agree is, is less energy really a proof of better wellbeing? No, no, no, definitely not. Definitely not. So it really depends on the situation. Yeah. If we're dealing with a dog that's, you know, kind of like how you would imagine a person with ADHD, I'm not talking about like playful behavior. I'm talking about the dog that just can't relax. And you know, some, some will also say that we don't need to treat ADHD as much. And it's also, there's a rise in how many people are being treated for it. But let's say that if we have a dog that, you know, is a, and it is sometimes anxiety can go both ways. It can cause a dog to be hyper all the time, all over the place. And it can cause the dog to look like, you know, we would use the word depressed, even though we don't really know if it's actually depression. But it might go to both ways. So yes, sometimes it's a lot easier if you have a depressed dog or those anxious dogs that, that, you know, are kind of like in a shell and all of the, all of a sudden they're coming out of their shell. It's a lot easier to say, oh yes, it's working. It's harder sometimes to say when you have a dog that's all over the place, but also aggressive. But now he has some reduction in his activity level and I'm saying some reduction, right? When I'm talking to, to my patients and I put them on, I recommend having them on a medication like that or anybody medication and that might have side effects. They tell them, look, the dog is not supposed to be a zombie. Some reduction in energy, that's normal. I mean, also depends on the dog, the dog's personality, of course, but dogs breed and age.

I mean, I wouldn't expect a 10 year old, I don't know, Labrador. Let's go with Labradors. I wouldn't expect a 10 year old Labrador to be as active as a one year old Labrador, right? So it's, it's different for different, uh, uh, patients. And if you ever had older dogs or even mid age dogs, you know that most of them don't spend the entire day running around and playing and, and, you know, just wanting to be, uh, pet it all the time or play all the time, many of them just want to relax. You know, they just want to chill. They are nowhere to be found. That's the level that I want to see. I don't want to see less than that. If the dog is what I call a zombie or what you said, you use the word numb, like the dog is. Yes. And I, I, I still, um, want to kind of emphasize that I do not take that lightly. It was on, you know, as, as much as it was a cartoon and whatever, uh, there is like, and it's not just my belief. There is a, uh, uh, very growing within the psychiatry community argument that the SSRIs reduce empathy and emotional responsiveness. And this is serious stuff. And there is studies, there is studies, like there is another one that, uh, again, I'm, I'm going to show you all those. And there's a, all of them are very recent. Now you and I would agree that you've done research. I've done research. We can create outcomes, but you can still find some interesting things. So, so this one, um, 2019, still fairly recent. Yeah. Antidepressant treatment, not depression leads to reduction in behavioral and neural responses to pain empathy. It was a very, very interesting study what they did. They basically had people on medication observe other people, uh, uh, feeling discomfort from different levels, being physical, being mental, being whatever. Right. And, and, and, and, um, um, um, it clearly showed. They use, uh, everything that you would want to do to have correct study, uh, three groups and so on. And, and, and, and it did show that it reduces empathy and emotional responses. Uh, when you talk to people, like when you talk to, um, I will, I will tell you like, uh, people that have come off or people that are still a little bit capable to, to explain what is going on. And, and, and, and, and, and, and like, like, like, let me try to, to kind of paint a picture, uh, from one of the, the conversations that doctor that I'm having tomorrow. He's named Dr. Joseph. Um, um, um, but anyway, he, he, uh, basically like imagine losing all of your positive emotions, no sadness, but like all emotions. Imagine hugging your best friend or a family member and feeling nothing.

Imagine hearing your favorite song that no, that one that used to give you the goosebumps and, and now it's just background noise. Imagine drinking alcohol, even taking drugs, doing nothing you used to feel something from. Now imagine that emptiness is permanent, not because you're broken, but because a drug rewired your developing brain during puberty and, and now your body doesn't know how to find its way back. This isn't just a sexual side effect because they, you, we are, it's well known side effect, right? But, but, but we, this kind of trying to minimize the problem. This is an emotional devastation. It's cognitive too, because people cannot think clearly anymore. They cannot work. They cannot connect. Uh, um, they're like spectators in their own lives. Um, if this is what this drug can do to humans who are fully aware and able to talk about what's happening, what the hell do we think happens to the dogs who are being under this kind of medications? Um, are, are they safe and effective? Um, they, they're, they're questions, right? They're, they're questions. So it's, it's, it's a valid question. And there's a good chance that for some of these things, unless we'll find a way to read the dog's thoughts or something like that, we're not going to know. So again, we go according to changes in behavior. Now, it is true. All the things that you mentioned, there are known side effects in people as well. But there are other studies in people that show that their life are actually improving with the use of these medications. So, you know, yes, there are bad studies or even great studies, but with, you know, bad results. I mean, I'm doing like the air quotation. Yeah, I got you. Yeah, because, you know, it kind of like doesn't fit maybe the narrative that psychiatrists will want to say that, yeah, they're safe. No, we are aware that there are dangers and there are issues. Do dogs can also have, you know, the same things like you're mentioning, like basically deprive them from their joy in life and kind of like they're not feeling those things? There's a good chance that in some dogs, yes, because again, we believe that the brain of people, especially with, let's say, the basic emotions, does work the same as in dogs. Knowing if it's actually exactly the same, that's hard to say. That's why, for example, you know, let's say a good example would be autism, right? So in people, there's like the spectrum, there are all kinds of different tests that you can do and even genes that are associated with it.

And in dogs, we almost don't have any studies about the topic and not because we don't think that dogs might be autistic. I think that most of us believe that there are dogs that have behavioral issues because they're on the autistic spectrum or the equivalence of that in dogs. But right now, we don't have ways to know it. And, you know, again, I wish we had things like measuring something in the blood or like some sort of a scan that will give us the answer. But we don't. Right. Kind of like going back to... I'm planning to... Sorry. Go ahead. No, no. I'm saying that kind of like going back to what we said or what I said at the beginning, that in the end, we were both trying... I mean, both groups, right? Dog trainers and veterinary bearers are trying to improve not just the dog's life, of course, the dog's life and the owner's life. And if there's any danger to the dog or people around the dog and all of that, of course, we also try to address that. So, in a way, we will take... And I'm using the word risk, even though in most cases I don't think it's such a big risk, but we will take that risk of affecting dogs in... No, in negative ways. And again, the same thing can be said about training methods. In some dogs, a specific training method might cause an actual risk, right? I mean, the dog might end up becoming even more aggressive or more fearful because of what we did. So... No question. The same as using medication. So that's why we try to do studies. And like you said, sadly, we don't have enough. We don't have enough mainly because of funding, just so you know. For example, the study that I did, I did a study on trying to see... No, no, I have to disagree with you here. Oh, yeah, go ahead. Funding is not a... Funding is definitely not an issue. I know it's an issue in your area, but in the field of human psychiatry, big pharma is flooding. I mean, it's pouring. Funding is not an issue. It's actually... Funding is what most likely created the overuse of... Okay, so let me rephrase. Funding from a source that doesn't going to cause bias to the results. Because that's very important, right? In veterinary medicine and, you know, specifically we're talking about veterinary medicine, not the human... The big pharma are not going to pay anything. My study was partially supported by the university where I did my residency. And I also got like, I think, $2,000, if I remember correctly, from fear-free pets. So you might say, yes, there is some bias there. I can tell you that they didn't have any say about how I'm doing the study, and they didn't see anything before it was published.

But, you know, my study was considered a good study in the way that it was done, right? Because it was a double-blind placebo-controlled study. So people that don't know, there are like even different levels of studies. The best one is considered a meta-analysis of double-blinded placebo-controlled. So like they actually had a bunch of studies that were both the person, the owner, or technically the patient, when we're not talking about dogs, but the patient or the owners don't know what drug the dog is getting. And also the researcher is not aware of what drug the dog is getting. And then we have something that we're actually measuring. And only after we finish measuring everything, only then we unblind everything. Now everyone are getting, you know, let's say in my case, they got a capsule, either one with the medication or with cornstarch or something like that. By Tumine C. Which is not the medication. And in that, and by the way, my study, it didn't really show a big difference between dogs that received gabapentin before the appointment that we kind of like did a sham veterinary visit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Between that and the placebo. There was a little bit of difference in, and statistically significant, but between them, as far as like, for example, lip licking, which is considered a stress sign in favor of the gabapentin dog. So it did seem like it helped a little, but nothing crazy. I mean, nothing like, oh my God. And might also be because of how I designed that study. But, you know, I'm going to chase you down to get this from you, right? Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's not a problem. But, you know, I'm, in a way, I'm actually, I feel good that I published a study that technically didn't support what many other veterinarians think. Because a lot of veterinarians say, okay, we have an anxious dog. Let's give him gabapentin. Now, in my study, it didn't seem like it worked that well. There's another study done by someone else that I think was also double-blinded. They used it for a thunderstorm. And in their case, it did seem like it did something. And, you know, I have veterinarians, including behaviors that swear that gabapentin works. I can only say that in my study, it didn't seem like it worked as much. Again, there might be other issues going on with my study that explain it. But, you know, but that's considered a good study. Because it actually had that double-blinded control. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, there are other studies, not a lot, that only checked, kind of like, you know,

we gave the medication, maybe not even blinded, and then asked the owners what they think. Like, was there a change? Or did you see anything? Yeah, sometimes that's all we have. So, yes, we do have science-based medicine. No, not all of it is the highest level. But we definitely go with kind of like do no harm as far as using medications or trying to minimize the risk as much as possible. That's kind of where I want to challenge you. Yeah, that's where I want to challenge you again with the we do no harm. I can't because it's always kind of presented more on the safe and effective side. And there is serious, serious side effects. But before we get deeper in those, like, we can agree that it would reduce arousal. But reducing arousal, it's not the same as restoring joy or something. No. So, first, not necessarily it will reduce arousal. And it depends, again, it depends on the case, it depends on the patient. It's not something... Correct. But when we're looking at bigger scope percentage-wise, the idea is to, just as you said in your own words... Reduce over arousal. Correct. Not reduce arousal. That's a very big distinction between the two things. Yeah, I'll correct myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, so, reducing over arousal is not the same as restoring joy. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's not... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely agree with this. Okay. Yeah. Now, the opposite of depression or anxiety or all of this, it's not happiness. It's really not. I will tell, like, I don't know where I heard it. I think it was... It's one of the current kind of big names. But, anyway, when she said this, it really hit home base for me. The opposite is actually curiosity. You want curiosity. You want some... I'm intrigued. I can recognize novelty. As a dog trainer, when I have a behavior problem, if I have a dog that doesn't have curiosity, I will struggle. Yeah. I will really, really struggle, right? No, I agree with you completely because, again, as far as the treatment goes, as I mentioned, medication is just one part. And, you know, I think it is important to understand why we use the medication. It's not to fix the behavior. We try to get the threshold higher, meaning that it will give us a little more wiggle room to actually work with the trainer on the behavior issue. Because let's say you have a dog that will explode because he's so afraid of other dogs or, like, he's crazy, hyper-aroused because of anxiety. And, you know, every little thing will trigger him even miles away. So, you know, we can't do anything.

It doesn't matter if you're going to use shock colors and it doesn't matter if you're going to use only treats. The dog, like, the second that it happens, explosion, right? He goes from zero to 60. The goal of the medication in most of these cases is to give us a little bit more time to be able to actually work on the behavior and treat the behavior. Many times, once we did it for, you know, enough time and the dog now learned the new behavior, there's a good chance that we can win them off the medications and they don't need it. They're not going to need it anymore. So the fact that a dog is being put on some anti-anxiety medication doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to be on it for the rest of their lives. But if we do see that, you know, we started winning him off and, again, despite the fact that on the medication he was still curious, he was still playful, he was, as far as all of us can tell, enjoying life and eating nicely and, you know, interacting with their owners and, you know, if it's a playful dog with other dogs and all of that, everything else kind of seems like a normal dog. What's going on in the brain? Again, we can't ask if they're happy or not. We can only say that their behavior is kind of looking normal. So it's not, in most cases, it's not a problem to keep them on those medications for life as long as, you know, the veterinarian knows about it and he will do blood work once a year, once every six months to make sure that nothing is changing and, you know, adjust things. Like what would it have to change in a blood work when you're talking about something that out there, like mind-altering? There are a bunch of things that can be affected by these medications, again, depending on what medication you're actually using. Let's say some SSRIs might affect thyroid levels, might not actually cause thyroid disease. Okay, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, for sure, for sure. But I'm talking about actually, like it is very hard to evaluate something that you don't even know what you're diagnosing to begin with. Like I will tell you, and again, this all comes from human psychiatry and the problems that they are facing and that are actually really challenging right now. One of the interesting things is that all of the studies that come out, that actually big pharma allow to come out, because there is studies that, like you cannot see a study that's bad. You have to do a serious homework for this. That's true, but it's true in all scientific fields, not just medications. So I don't think it has anything to do with pharma.

I think it has more to do with researchers not wanting to publish things out there. You know, when they get like bad results that don't fit their hypothesis. That's why, again, I'm actually pretty proud of the fact that I published something that maybe didn't fit the hypothesis. Right. But the companies like Lilies and whatever, they want to make money. They want to make money. They have no interest to publish those studies. We know everybody agrees on that. One of the interesting things where I was going with this is that most of the, even the studies that do come out, they're done within, again, these eight weeks of time. Hmm. And as you said, from there on, we are putting somebody for three years or perhaps for life on that medication. Yep. How is that eight weeks a baseline of what's going to happen? No. So you mean what? The actual change or the fact that they don't try to see? I mean, it's very impossible to evaluate how the drug affects your brain within eight weeks and what happens in long term. These are apples and oranges. Yeah. No, it is lacking. It is definitely lacking. But, you know, I can say the same thing about the study that you were a part of, right? We'll get there. Let's not. For five days. No, we don't have a lot of time. So I think it's also important, right? I mean, you tested. I need to make sure that we go here and perhaps maybe we do need to go because these are not easy topics and we cannot. You know how you say, well, you can win it off. One of the biggest problems that human psychiatry faces is tapering SSRIs. This is like the most incredibly difficult thing. And it's not talked about. And there is a lot of psychiatrists that would be like, oh, no, like they would come on national TV media and talk about it. And it's like, no, it's very easy. It's whatever. It's total contradiction. It's one of the hardest thing to do. And when it gets really hard, it's not to get to, let's say, from 15 to 5. It's the last two. And now you start to blow off. And now what happens typically is there will, and the patient himself is like, I need to go back on because it's helping me. And it's not because it's a serious withdrawal problem. This is highly dangerous, addictive mind. Why is it addictive? If it's actually helping the person, what's the problem? You're saying that the person himself is saying, no, it's working. So, you know, we do try to look for the lowest possible dose. Yeah, you didn't get the point I'm trying to make. Maybe. The person believes that the medicine is working, while in fact it's the withdrawal of the medicine.

That it's so powerful that they feel like total shit. That's what she's feeling? Correct. Correct. And they have to go back on it. And this is with people. And with dogs, we cannot even, you know, all we can do is just watch their everyday life, observe body language and appetite and decide if we need to decide for them. They cannot even say that. And that's a problem. It's a problem. I actually don't think it's such a big problem because especially if it's not causing any medical issues. And the person feels like it's helping them, then why not? Even a placebo effect is a good effect if it's actually working and not causing any issue. And again, I will take it to our field. First, we actually don't see crazy withdrawal signs as much as we can. I mean, we keep going back to the point of what if. What if the dog is like this or thinking like that? We don't have the way to tell it. And that's the same thing I can say about any method of training. And also, you would have a dog, not necessarily you specifically, but you will have a dog, for example, being trained with a shock collar. And in some cases, you will have to actually use it for those situations, you know, recall or chasing away after another animal or something like that. So, you actually also didn't really fix the problem because the dog still wears the collar. So, you can say the same thing about the medication. Okay. Yeah. The antirolive fix the problem. Ori, Ori. I totally disagree with what you just said. And it's going to be a beautiful conversation to like really, really, really go into that rabbit hole about what you just were talking about. Yeah. But it wouldn't make sense. It would be like, again, like a clickbait or this like on TV, like, okay, you have two minutes to say what you need to say. Yeah. Like, this is a deep conversation that every, like, I bet you we will have a ton of requests of people that would want us to talk about it. I will be happy if you let me just, again, nothing to do with the studies or all that, just kind of like something that I do think that is important for people to know. A lot of people believe, and, you know, you might be one of them and say, it's okay, everyone is entitled for their own opinion. But a lot of people believe that using those psychoactive medications, using those anti-anxiety medications, especially the long-lasting ones, not those fast-acting ones, but the long-lasting ones like the SSRIs, like Prozac or Clomipramine is from a different family. But using those medications might lead to a dog that is not happy, that is not enjoying life, or that has, you know, side effects.

Well, in fact, if you ask most of the veterinary behaviorists and their experience, and again, the studies that did ask owners what they saw, it's actually not the case. In most of these cases, the dogs are behaving normally and just not showing the problematic behavior to begin with. Do we need to throw those medications on every single patient that we see? Definitely not. And I can tell you that as a veterinary behaviorist, a lot of times I get clients that are coming and they're already on Prozac that their primary veterinarian gave them. Why? Why? Because they read somewhere that Prozac can reduce anxiety or can make the dog less aggressive. And it's safe and effective. I'm definitely against it. Right. Yeah. And I'm definitely against it because, again, just the medication is almost never the treatment. Yeah. And I love what you're saying. And I have to, of course, mention that I do believe that there is time and place for them. But I also do believe that it's extremely, highly overused. Like, if, I mean, if we're talking, like, if I have to put some percentage, I would say, like, we need to come down to, like, 3%, perhaps, instead of 45%. And I can tell you why I'm coming with 45%. I have a school for dog trainers. I have a very big pool of trainers that train pet dogs. Yes. And we have regular Zoom calls discussing cases and so on. And because of my obsession with this kind of stuff, somehow I came up with this question. I'm like, guys, how many of you, how often a dog comes that is on SSRI? Mm-hmm. Well, it was a lot. It was surprisingly a lot. Yeah. My next question was, and what I mean a lot, like, let's say within two months, at least one dog was on medication. Mm-hmm. Now, granted, they come with some problems, right? So they, we can say, well, they need medication. Right. But, the next question I ask is, well, any of these dogs, have you talked to the owners and their veterinarians, is there any plan to taper off? Mm-hmm. Never. That's never. So, then, hold on. Then, hold on. The interesting question would be, how many of them got the medication from a behavior specialist? Yes. Yeah. If that's not the case, then, of course, it's skewing the results. And I agree with you. I agree with you that it's overused and used in a wrong way. So, then I was asking them, well, what is the youngest age? And the youngest age was a six-month-old. Mm-hmm. What are we doing? Right? And you're correct what you're saying. You're probably very right. But that's most likely on AVSAB, if I have to think who should take responsibility instead of going so strong against aversive.

I'm not saying they shouldn't or shouldn't. But this is within their real specialty. They should have some control of the general veterinarian industry of what's happening out there. I think that, again, being a member and overall kind of like agreeing with the general things that they try to, let's say, teach the veterinarians and the public and trainers, by the way. I think trainers can actually also, if I remember, maybe not trainers, but technicians. I'm not sure, but that organization is not, in a way, the organization that is the most qualified to do those decisions or stuff like that. I mean, if you want to actually go with better or the best recommendation, I would still go with the American College of Veterinary Behaviors. Because again, that actually has something behind it. I was a member of the AVSAB even before I was in my residency. Yes, because you can. Yes. And by the way, they do have good position statements and they have reference there. And usually those position statements are actually written by specialists. But having said that, the fact that someone is a member of the AVSAB is not necessarily proof that they know what they're doing. So that's why it's really important to know who is the person that's prescribing your medications. Yes. Yes. You know, the highest tier would still be, and I'm sorry, I might be offending some of my colleagues that are not diplomats. But, you know, when you have a dog with epilepsy or with seizures, would you prefer that a neurologist will see him? Or would you prefer that a general practitioner that's interested in, you know, in neurology will do all the treatments and stuff like that? Sometimes the general practitioner might be great, definitely. But the credentials of the neurologist are so much better because you know that they had to go through a very rigorous training to become what they are. And the same goes for behaviorists. As I said, I also get doctors already on those medications and I kind of disagree with it because sometimes because they only gave the doctor medication and didn't do anything else about it, now the owners don't even trust the fact that the medication maybe in that case might actually work because they just used it wrongly. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the, like I, you know, as much as even now as you were talking, I'm thinking how I just can't put the blame on the, just the general veterinarian. But it's probably not even fair to do that because it's been, the whole idea has been sold to them as this medication is safe and effective. So they don't feel that they should be concerned.

And we haven't even touched the, the, the, the depthness of, of the side effects of what this medication do to humans. Um, you know, what is interesting is like if, if, if, like if chemical imbalance were truly the root cause of like depression and behavior problems in dogs, how come natural selection allowed it to remain so widespread in, in population? Right. It's just not going, this is not, so something is tweaked. That, that, and, and, and, and. Those things are, are crazy complicated. Right. In people and in dogs. All I'm saying, Ori, all I'm saying is we should not be irresponsible and overused. Like the most, my most difficult cases and they're recorded. They're like from day one, as they come, they are recorded until, until like we're talking three months, every session filmed. Regardless if it's here in a training or if it's out in public or whatever. So it's very, very well documented. This, this stuff I have learned that it's important to do because talk goes so far. Right. My most difficult cases, I found that I have to taper them off the medication so they can start to get excited about life a little bit. So I can, so I can connect to them. So I can say, hey, Bobby. And Bobby goes, yeah, it's me. And I have something to work on. We're talking about selection bias because, you know, those that got to you, there's a good chance that, you know, they tried the medication, didn't work. They maybe tried reward-based trainers, didn't work. And then you got them and there's bias, right? Because they already did those things and maybe did them in a wrong way and then affected the, because, you know, if you look at my patients. Also, I have patients that came from either positive or any other kind of training methods. A lot of them, as I mentioned, came with already some medication from their veterinarian. And I would definitely expect that the number of cases that I'm seeing, or let's say the complexity of the cases that I see, are much higher than, you know, the normal dog that a veterinarian will see. And probably you will see the same, right? Because, again, if it was something that an owner can just look on a YouTube video and train by themselves, they wouldn't need you or me. So we are already biased to kind of decide. And by the way, that might actually also affect why you're seeing what you're seeing and I'm seeing what I'm seeing. Because it was already selected for us. Those that came to me already did those things. And that's why I can say, oh, yeah, all of my patients, trainers couldn't help them.

And you might see something that's completely different because you see patients that were already treated with medication. And say, all of my clients are dogs that medications didn't help them. So in those cases, we need to be very, very caution on how we, you know, use our own experiences. Right, don't standardize, for sure. Absolutely, yeah, 100% agree with you. You know, though, I'm not going to change my mind. I agree with you 100%. I'm also not going to change your mind. What I was going to say is, like, I have this one dog right now that I somehow end up with. And he's that kind of dog that you just described him very well. He was on, oh, man, what was the medication now? Exoplum. Acetylopram? Yeah, yeah. Gabapentin. Trazodone. The CBD supplement. And some other supplements for calmness. Yeah. For three years. Without any, like, zero change. He's going to be euthanized tomorrow. So someone did something wrong. Exactly my point. Okay. Like, you can see my frustration. But we agree. And I can have the same migration. He was on the medication for three years and didn't die because of the medication, which is also important to say. But I was not able to get anything from him while he was on medication. And that's very well documented. And now, when we have, and I'm sure we will have the next conversation because people will want us to talk about aversives and electric colors in particular. Yes. I promise you they will want to. You will see the comments. But just to say that I absolutely would agree that you can bring that in and say, well, but there is, you know, a lot of shit happening with electric colors that doesn't need to be happening. And I'm not going to argue with that. Yeah. And by the way, I wanted to say that I actually appreciate the fact that here and in your YouTube videos and all of that, you actually call them electric colors. And you don't try to sugarcoat it and call it electronic colors. It tickles. It only tickles. Yeah. And all kinds of like, you know, it is what it is. So, you know, that's actually something that did impress me. And one of the other reasons, like, I was happy to come today. Thank you. And have the discussion because it did seem like you don't try to sugarcoat those things. No, I genuinely, just like yourself, I have my beliefs, but I want to challenge my beliefs. And that's why I have the conversations. I do want to. Like, you convinced me, I'm not going to keep hitting, banging my head in the wall. Like, I'm not. I know we are well over the time that you said you can have. I really, really appreciate it.

I was actually very, very happy with how we were able to talk to each other, even to begin with, because you never know how this can end up. Right. And as we said in the beginning, we still are who we are. Nothing has changed, but we allow people to hear different sides. And I think that's what matters ultimately. So, really, really appreciate. I will send you, as I promise, I'll send you all these little things. Yeah, the paper. Yeah, that's very interesting. And I will remind you to get your study. And hopefully we make it again. I really think it will be cool. Yes. Thank you, Ari. Thank you so much. Bye. Thank you for having me.