에피소드 62: Larry Krohn

I said, something's wrong here. And every vet I took him to, no, there's nothing there. It's just, you know, he probably just tweaked something. I said, man, I don't believe that. And so we were just getting ready to go to the University of Tennessee. They have an athletic dog program there. And we were going to get him checked out right. But the accident happened before we could even do that. You know? But it is what it is. You know? Right. You know that, like, you've been through it. You know? It's just really, it is what it is. But it's cool that, you know, like, some people will try sports. And very quickly will be, I don't even know why. I guess there are many different reasons why somebody would try and be very reluctant to go on deep in it. And some people, even though they don't have the right dog, they just get really, like, the bug bites them. And they're like, this is interesting. It's challenging. It's humbling. It's frustrating. And somehow it's addictive because of it. It is. I don't know. It is. You know? And coming from my, in my world, in the pet dog world, I've always leaned towards the sport dog people. You know? And I always incorporate a lot, for many years anyway, into my training. And that's why I've always, I push pet dog people constantly. You have to learn from that side of the fence. You have to. And I think, I think deep down inside, once I started, there was this healthy fear of failure. You know? It was there. I'm thinking, what if I suck at this? What if I blow this? So I think that's good sometimes to keep people a little humbled. Because, look, let's be, let's be, this is going to be a very honest conversation, right? There's a massive, there's a lot of people on the pet dog side of things that have massive followings. They have big social media platforms. And I talk about this often. And I know it's not popular. But I just, you know, I'm always going to be honest whether it's popular or not. And I know many people will throw me into that category. I'm not an influencer. I don't have the massive following that so many of these people do. I'm not making millions off social media. And the problem is. You were, like, I mean, way back then when things were just kind of coming up. That was kind of the path. But you're clearly not anymore. No. Well, I never did it to try to make money or become popular. Yeah. I guess at that time it wasn't even the case, right? No. It was literally to help the everyday dog owner. That's it. Like the people that struggle the most. The dogs that wind up in the shelters. The pet dog people that have nowhere to turn. Right? So my video, you could watch.

And you know they've always been unprofessional and sloppy and messy. And you could watch the way they've progressed over the past 18 years online. But they're still unprofessional and sloppy. I just try to provide the information that people need to help them. But the problem is we've gotten to a point now where there's so many people making so much money off social media that the focus for many is to get bigger and not better. And that right there, I have a real problem with that. Because we're not dealing with robots. You know, we're dealing with living, breathing, emotional creatures. And when you take that route, there's going to be dogs and people that suffer. So I remember for, I used to talk about this all the time. I talked to this person. I talked to this person. This is what I'm seeing. This is what's going on. And people would tell me I'm a liar. You're full of shit. Because I'm not seeing that. You know. But the pet dog world has been bad for a really long time. A really long time. And so I've always known that I was never happy where I was with my skills or knowledge. I've always tried to learn. But I've always made the effort to go to the best of the best on the sport dog side. That's where I found the most value. And then bringing that into the pet dog side of the world. And so when I talk about that today, it's still not real popular. It's just like when we try to. I'm glad that more people are pushing the whole play thing and really getting into that. And Dylan's having a big impact on people now. But there's still a massive, massive population out there that think it's a fad. Because they don't get it in the full context. You know what I mean? And I'm glad more people are trying to change opinions. But if you're going to truly, truly change the everyday dog owner. Like we have to push them towards that way of thinking and training. You just have to. You know. I got several people here right now today from out of state. From all over for private lessons. They get an Airbnb. And we train every day. And every single person that comes with problems. With Shepherds and Malinois and Rottweilers. Like when I ask them, show me what you guys have going on. It's the same stuff that people were doing 30 years ago. You know. Sit for one piece of food. Get on the place board and stay there. You know. Walk around at my side. And so although things are getting better. We still have a very, very long way to go. Very long way to go. But I mean. When you know. When I just thought of something. Like the pet industry. Specifically the dog training industry. It's not that old. You know. Right. I mean.

Comparing to any other. I mean take horses or whatever. I mean hairdresser. Any kind of job. Right. It's still relatively new profession. I remember myself. When I was like man. Even when I moved to Belgium. It was unheard of to. Yeah. There's a lot of training clubs. There is a lot of. You know. If you want to get obedience. You know. You go to the obedience club. Whatever. But being as a profession. I mean my mom was laughing. And she actually wasn't even laughing. She was extremely concerned. Even though I was paying all the bills for them. Forever. That I. It's time for me to get serious. And get a real job. Right. That kind of thing. Okay. So. So. In some ways. The being in a. The pet profession. I think. The professional dog trainers. We're still. Trying to iron things out. And there is a lot of wrinkles to iron though. That's the thing. That it is like a lot of wrinkles. Like you take the. The four three. You take. I mean it's just. And. And. That. The ability to sort things out. And get. Good things from everywhere. You know. Instead of just. Blocking everything. So. It's difficult. But. To go back to the. Sport and pet. Training. There is a. That's an ongoing conversation. Also. Right. It's like. Well. I don't need to. I can be very good. Pet dog trainer. And. I don't have to do sport. Or know anything about sport. I think that's not. Nothing wrong with that. Sure. Right. But. At the same time. There is something. That these people are missing. And. And. Not need to have to go deep in the woods. In sports. You know. But. I think there is something. That they are. I don't know how they look. What. What kind of glasses you put. To say. Well. It's sports. It's. I mean. Yeah. It's cool. And whatever. But. But you can be a very good dog trainer. I think. Oh man. We're getting some crazy rain. That's Florida. Yeah. I just can't. Hard. But. That's what I'm thinking. You know. It's. It's always interesting. Because. I'm. Take me. I. I've done pedals. I've done whatever. I still do pedals. I love it. But. Do. Competition. Since I. Remember myself. And. When you ask. Why. If somebody asks. Why. I think it's the challenge. It's the. Constant. You're forced to. Think. And then. There is these. Checkpoints. That. You're either right. Or wrong. And it's very clear. If you're right or wrong. Right. Yeah. Um. But. I don't know. What. What. What is. Your. I mean. Do you agree. That. You don't need. To be. Sports. To be a good. Pet trainer. Right. That's for sure. Not the case. No. I don't think. You need it. But I think. It limits you. Right. I think. I think. If you have a good understanding. On both sides. It opens up. The. Different. Kinds of issues. And types of dogs. That you can work with. Now. There are people out there.

That have no interest. In the sport. Dog side. And they'll. They'll tell you. I don't work with those kind of dogs. I think. That's. There's nothing wrong with that. I think it's very admirable. Right. But. Lord knows. There's people. And listen. It's very. Easy. To feel. Good. About yourself. And feel like. You're on top of the world. Because in the pet dog world. They put you on a pedestal. Very easily. Very easily. I'm. I'm very uncomfortable. When. Pet dog owners. Or young pet dog trainers. Say. Embarrassing. Embarrassing. Like. Good things. About me. Because I don't. I don't believe. I. I deserve that. Or earn that. I'm. I'm. I'm. Pretty decent. At what I do. I. Work real hard. At getting better. To help people. But people. Are too easy. To label. People. Just. You know. The best. Of the best. Like. That makes me. Very. Very. Uncomfortable. You know. That's very true. Yeah. It is. Because. A lot of these people. They. They become. Almost celebrities. Because. Because of social media. And when I hear. A pet dog trainer. Who's got a massive. Social media following. Talk about their fans. I just cringe. Man. I just. We. We don't have fans. You have people. Who follow you. On social media. You know what I mean. And. I think it's very easy. To not be humble. When you're only dealing. With people. That trust every word. You say. And put you on a pedestal. You know. And if I. Whenever I'm getting. To that point. Or in the past. I would. Boy. My wife was always there. To knock me down. Real quick. You know. I remember. When I hit a million followers. Or a million views. On YouTube. I said. Oh man. Look at this babe. I just hit a million views. She said. Good. Have one of them. Take out the garbage. For you. So that's it. That's what I get. Damn. Okay. All right. I see how it is. I see how it is. You know. But. But. This is what I ask people. Do you think. It's going to hurt you. By learning both sides. And opening your mind. Because look. I've been there. I talked about this. The other day. The first. Big name dog trainer. I work with. It was kind of. Pet dog. And sport dog. Mixed up. Like. I truly believed. He was the best dog trainer. On the planet. I said those words. This guy is the best dog trainer. In the world. Because I didn't. I actually was listening to you. That day. Yeah. I didn't know. What I didn't know. You understand. But it didn't take me long. To realize. All right. This guy is actually. A piece of garbage. And he's destroying dogs. And it taught me. Who I didn't want to be. Very very quickly. And we still have people. With massive names. And followings. Out there. In the pet dogs. I think like that. I hear him say all the time. Oh my buddy. He's one of the best in the world. And I'm thinking. No he's not.

Like not even close. You don't know. You don't know. What level of dog training that is. And that's. That makes me sad. You know. That makes me very very sad. But you know. You just keep hoping to affect. As many people as possible. Show them a different way. And the best thing. Anyone could do. You show the work. You show the dogs. But in reality. How many people. In the pet dog world. Show that. How many people actually do it. They talk about doing it. But there's not many. That actually do it. You know what I mean. And that hurts us. That hurts us immensely. You know. That. That. That probably. I mean. In my opinion. That. That's the number one. Problem. That I don't think. It. It will get. I mean. People. Your average pet owner. Is like. Okay. Well. She has the following. She believes. Or she believes. In themselves. Now. Everybody is whatever. Cordial. It's got to be good. But. Not. That many people. Do. I don't know. If even. People know. How to make. Sound. Screening. Of like. Who is who. Which shouldn't be. Like. In my eyes. It's really. Not that difficult. To. To make the distinctions. But. But it's for sure. Very very hard. For. For the average pet owner. To. Navigate. Through this whole. You know. It's not easy. For them. And. I think. That like. The hardcore. Influencers. Things that don't deliver. That it just. Just talk. And. You know. I think. They start. With the idea. To. To do good marketing. And to do the. The whole. You know. YouTube. And TikTok. And. And as they. Keep going. I think. They start. To believe in themselves. 100%. It's kind of like the. You know. The not. Contact martial arts. All of a sudden. You really think. That you can just. Knock 20 people. Down. Just like that. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that. That's one thing. That cannot happen. In the dog sport world. It's a. It's an interesting time. For sure. And I. I get frustrated. Just as. I think you. And many people. With. Some of the advice. Is actually. Really dangerous. And some of the advice. Is. So. Like. Just. Like. Makes my. Blood pressure. Off the roof. You know. I mean. When. When somebody. Starts to talk about. How. Dogs are just. There to. Just show the middle finger. Or. Yes. Or they just. All for. Themselves. Or. It's like. Fuck man. Like. Why are you. In. Even. Why are you. Even bothering. If that's your. Take on dogs. Like. It's frustrating. You know. Yeah. Well. I've gotten in. I've gotten in. Some. Battles over that too. When I speak up on that. It's not taken. Fairly. And listen. I think. Um. When someone. In the dog world. Knows just a little bit more. Than the average dog owner. Or the young dog trainer. They're easy to believe. That's all you need to do. Is know a little bit more. You know. But. That's what. It's become. People go online.

It's like. Same thing with breeders. Dog trainers. It doesn't matter. Whoever has the nicest website. And pops up first. And has. Millions and millions. Of views. And followers. And. A. If you make your prices. Outrageously expensive. The wealthy are going to pick you. Because they put value. In the high prices. This guy must be the best. If he's charging $20,000. For a board and train. This is the best. I have the money. So that's where I'm going to go. It's genius marketing. When you think about it. Right. Because if that person. That has the money. Looks. And finds the cheapest person. Doing board and trains. Out there. They're not even looking twice at them. Right. It's not happening. Yes. So it's a very. Very. Very. Difficult thing. To combat. You know. But. You know. Like I said. It's. I've. I've spoken about this. You know. You laughed. You made a comment. When I brought up our first podcast. I still. Have no regrets over that. Because I think it was important. For people to see that conversation. And you know. They still talk about it. They still bring it up. Constantly. Because it bothered so many people. On so many levels. No matter what side you fell on. Right. But that's kind of. The problem. With today's. Dog world. Like. The fact that. That podcast. Still gets talked about so much. And. I talk to people about it. All the time. And I think a lot of people. Have this. This idea. That we hate each other's guts. Right. Yeah. And well. You may hate my guts. I don't know. Why would I? But I tell people all the time. I said. I actually. I get along with Ivan. Like. I have no problems. I respect them. And. Like. We have good conversations. Behind the scenes. Just completely. I mean. You know. This is mutual. I mean. Right. But I still. Pull all the text here. I still have to point this out to people. Right. With that podcast. And we don't need to take forever on that. I say. But. If you go back and watch it. As hard as it was to watch. I never disagreed with what he said. Ever. I don't. I don't. I didn't disagree with anything. And I just had this conversation. Conversation yesterday. Because I did another podcast. And it always comes up. He said. I didn't. He's not wrong. But on my perspective. I'm dealing with a different level of client. Of dog owner. Right. And no matter what side of the fence. However you do things. The majority of people. Who put a remote in their hands. Using an electric collar. Shouldn't be doing so. They. They just shouldn't do it. No matter what. They're going to do it. And they're going to mess things up. I've always tried. Just to make the bad things. That happen through the dogs. A little easier on them. And that's what I've always tried to point. I dumped it.

And it's not something I created or invented. The way I do things. Which is also exaggerated. By the amount of times. And do things. Listen. I couldn't tell you the last time. I touched a button on an e-collar. People have a hard time believing that. If I have a client. That's hitting that button. Every week. A few times a week. We got to have a discussion. Why? What are we doing wrong? Where have I failed you? Right. Where are you struggling? Because that shouldn't be. But people hear and interpret what they want to hear. And interpret the way they want to do it. You know. I bet. I don't even know if you remember. Why that podcast came to. Do you? I remember exactly why it happened. Do you even remember how it got started? Um. Man. You know I'm bad with memory. But let me try. Let me try. I know I had. I mean I still do. I mean you know my position on low level. Sure. So. So that's kind of how it came. And. And. I don't quite remember. If I. Invited anybody to discuss it with me. No. I'll tell you exactly how it happened. You probably know it way better than me. Oh. Trust me. I remember. I remember everything. When it comes to that stuff. Right. Yeah. I'm so bad with that. There was a trainer that put out a video. Of her training her dog. Using. E-collar stuff. Activation. Simultaneous. Conditioning. All that stuff. And. You. Went on there. And kind of ripped it apart. And. You had. Half the people. On your side. Backing you. And half the people. Just coming at you. It got ugly. Of course. Yeah. Okay. And as I'm. As I'm watching this thread. I'm just watching. From. From the stands. I'm saying to myself. Please don't bring up my name. Please don't bring up my name. Please don't. And then someone. That I remember. Yes. You and Larry. That's how you got in. That I remember that. I wanted nothing to do with that. Because I knew your stance. I knew my stance. And I knew I didn't disagree with you. But. It's not going to benefit the people I work with. So. I said. Okay. Fine. I'll do it. I can remember. Our whole. Full timeline. Of our interaction. Between me and you. Before that. Like. I forget. None of that stuff. And I. I could tell you offline. If you want. Because you're going to say. That's pretty funny. How you put all of that together. But I knew everything. Right down to when you were coming. To my seminar in Florida. I knew why you were coming. I'm not an idiot. I know. Exactly. I know. All. I pay attention to more than what people think. Right. But. The reason I agreed to do it. I knew exactly how it was going to go. Believe me. But I thought it was really important. For people to hear. And start thinking about it. At least. Right. Because. I. I didn't disagree with you.

On the things that. You. Were not very nice about. On that video. I. Agree. A hundred percent. You know what I mean. Like. I just. I. The same thing. You think of that stuff. I think of that stuff. Also. Yeah. No. Sometimes. Yeah. I mean. Sometimes. Conversations. Like. Probably. That conversation. Would have been way different. If we get it. Just. And. You know. Not. The. Yeah. But here's the thing. And. You tell me. I think. You knew me. From. Online stuff. Yeah. Social media. Right. And I tell people. All the time. If that's the only way. You know me. I would not like me. I would think. I'm an. An opinionated. Loud mouth. Arrogant prick. There's no doubt. In my mind. You understand. But. What most people. Who don't know me. Personally. I'm a very. I. I don't lie. I'm very honest. And I'm very loyal. Like. Very loyal. So. I thought. When I decided. To do your school. We had several. Conversations. And. You were hesitant. To let me in. But I. But I. Understood. Right now. I mean. Hats off to you. Because. Because I know. How. Difficult it is. Sometimes. To. Keep your work. And then. For this. For everybody. You know. There's like. A. Insane respect. For this. Yeah. So. I knew. I knew. You were hesitant. And I knew why. Like. I. I completely understood. Because in. In your head. This is. A guy. That's on social media. A lot. I show a lot of stuff. I put everything out there. For free. And I'm going to go. Showing this. And showing that. And I knew that. But. I gave you my word. That like. Look. Before I even took the course. If I. Take something. From you. And change it. I'm never going to go. Putting it out there. For people. To obtain for free. When you're sitting here. Putting on a school. Right. But I also told you. Look. If I think the course is terrible. And I didn't like it. I'm not the kind of person. To go online. And say that. You know. I'm going to do the right thing. I'm going to be loyal. So then once. You said. All right. This is going to be cool. Once I started taking it. I'm sure you remember this. Maybe you don't. Eric. No. This. I remember. This was. It's always. Tricky for me. You know. Yeah. No. I get it. But then you said. I think you were in Bulgaria. At the time. You sent me a text. And you say. You got a minute to talk. And I said. Yeah. I knew why you were calling me. Like. Don't ask me why. But I literally knew. Why you were calling me. And you started talking. And you know. You sounded kind of down in the dumps. I said. Ivan. Let me stop you right there. You calling to kick me out of the course. And you go. Well. You know. And I say. Stop right there. This is your baby. Like. I don't want to be where I don't. Where I'm not welcome. I totally get it. You know. And we went back and forth. And it wound up working out.

But I did understand where you were coming from. Because I get that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally. And look. If I get that a lot. That means I'm doing something. To lead people on. That that's who I am. You know. The only thing. I wish I would have. You sent me. An invitation. Invited me to the first school. I wish I would have done it then. I wish I would have jumped on it. Right away. Because. And the only reason. I didn't stay in. And certify. And come down. And to be totally honest. Is I didn't think. I'd be welcome there. At least at the time. Right. Yeah. I know. I know. We talked about that. Yeah. Yeah. I. And I. I get it. And. But. Look where we are. Things change. That's the cool thing. About life. You know. Things change. Yeah. Because listen. I woke up every day. Excited. You know. Especially when there was a new module. Coming out. Man. I couldn't wait. Just to. Consume it. And then. You even called me one day. Because. I guess. You guys could track things. Pretty good. Like. Hey. You know. It shows that. Someone in Atlanta. Is logging in. To. To the course. You know. And you guys thought. I was like. Giving people my access. To get in. And so. I had. I sent you. I was pissed too. I was pissed. Because now. You're calling me a liar. Right. And so. I sent you a screenshot. Of how my. Internet. Whatever you call it. How it shows up. It shows up. That I'm in Atlanta. I don't know why. Right. But. But. But I understand. The apprehension. I totally get it. Especially. Listen. I am a fucking lunatic. When it comes to. When I share certain things. I learn. From the course. I'm pretty hard on people. You're doing amazing man. And I really. Like I. You know. I like. I. I. I don't know even. How to say this. Like I. It's not a. I try to keep something. It's not like this. Kung fu. Like. Secret martial arts. In some way. It is. But. But in some ways. You do want to. I mean. You. Are learning it. So you can. Help. People. And that's what you do. And you're doing. Really good job with it. And. Every time. Not. Not. Forced in it. But every time. There is a. A genuine. Reason. To plug in. Anything. That you. Saw from the school. That can help some. People. In their dogs. You're right there. And that's all it is about. Like we all need to do that. You know. Yeah. But you know what. To be fair to you also. Ivan. There was a time. When I thought. Like I remember the day. First of all. Once I signed up for the school. I. I talked to another student. Who explained. Who went through some of the. Punishment stuff. First negative. Reinforcement stuff. With me. Right. And I was like. Man. That's brilliant. That's the first place I heard it. It was someone who was already. Who got through that point. I had just. Signed up for the school.

So they were comfortable. Talking to me about it. And I was like. Shit man. That's brilliant. I love that. But I didn't see it. Right. And there were certain things. I was doing. Not often. But every now and then. Where I thought. It would benefit. That was working great. But I knew. I could do it better. I knew. There was something. I was missing. Like. I talk about this. All the time. Yeah. I know. Especially when I do seminars. I talk about this. All the time. When we got to that module. Where you were doing. Going deep into the punishment stuff. I called you from the road. I was on my way to Florida. And I called you. And I said. Son of a bitch. That's it. And you were like. What's that? I'm like. That's it. That's the part. That I knew I was missing. But I couldn't figure out on my own. But then it gets worse. Because the first time. I ever tried to implement it. I had to do it in front of you. At the seminar. Right. I remember that. And it was. It was terrible. And I did. It wasn't. Like in your eyes. Might have been really terrible. It was not bad at all. No. No. It was. It was. Larry. For actually learning it. And really just going right in front of the crowd. And doing it. It was not that bad. How you have it in your head. But for one. I was incredibly nervous with you there. Right. Of course. But that worked out to be an advantage. Because. What I was doing was. What a lot of people do. They're trying to emulate a cop. A method or a technique. Step by step. Forgetting. The whole emotional aspect. Of the interaction. Between you or the owner. And the dog. Right. But the good thing was. You were there. And I said to you. Look. That sucked. I could do that much better. What could I change? And you really went deep into the woods. And from that day on. Like I. And I tried not to do that too much. Because again. What I started saying here was. There was a time when I thought. Man. You have something so powerful. Why aren't you sharing this with more people? Because in my mind. You could help more dogs. Then. Once I started really getting deep into it. I completely understood why you don't. And it's not a selfish thing. It's because. It is so powerful. And so effective. That when people learn it. That's all they want. Okay. It will go sideways. Just like that. That's right. That's all they want to do. And they forget. Like that. There's a whole. 95% of what should be done. Is being ignored. Just so you could use this. Powerful. Powerful thing. And so I got it. And me and Jay talked about this too. I said. You know. I thought that fucker. Was just being selfish. And didn't want to share it. But I get it now. Because when we do seminars together. There was a time.

Where we both tried to stop talking about punishment. We're like. This is getting old man. That's all people want to talk about. But then when we tried to stop. When we tried to get away from it. You have no choice. Because people struggle so much. You know. People struggle so much. And the thing that benefits. When we're together. Especially. Jay does things. Like. It's the same concept. That we both do. Jay is super subtle with things. And there's times. Where purposely. I try to go the opposite route. And exaggerate. So people can see the middle part. You understand. And so. Some people will never get it. It doesn't matter. What you do. You could show all of that stuff. For free tomorrow online. And most people will never benefit from it. And that's the truth. Yeah. It actually. Really. Not just benefit. But it will really go. It will backfire. Horribly. 100%. You know. 100%. Yeah. So I totally get it. And so. I still get asked. Was. You know. The course isn't cheap. Was it worth it? Absolutely. And you know. Honestly. The reason I went. I was. I said something to my wife about it one day. She said. Well how much is it? I'm like. It's 10 grand. She goes. Are you going to do it? I said. Man. No. I'm not spent. You have guilt when you have a family. You know. I have a daughter in college. And so you have guilt when. Like the dog stuff. Occupies our life so much. And my family sacrifices so much. And my wife looked at me. She said. Will you learn something? I said. Yeah. Absolutely. There's no doubt. She said. Then just do it. I said. It's 10 grand. She said. Stop. Just. You can't take it to the grave with you. Just do it. If you want to do it. And it's going to benefit you. Do it. That's the day. I put my application in. So like everything in the dog world. She's pushed me to do everything. I've never done anything without her pushing me. Because there's so much guilt associated with. My family sacrificing so much because of the dog stuff. They sacrifice a lot. But it's also brought us a lot of incredible opportunities. You know. It really has. So the only regret I have with the course. Is that I didn't stay in. I just didn't think I'd ever be welcomed. And to be. I wanted to be like everybody else. No one knows me. Just open book. Right. And I didn't think that was possible at the time. And that's. That's. I'm being totally honest with you about that. No. We've talked about. I mean. I know this. You've told me this. Sure. And I totally understand it. That's for sure. That's for sure. Which actually. Oof. I don't know man. Like the. The school is amazing. And I don't. I. I have no idea where I'm pulling all this. Like where it's. Just coming into my brain. But it. Keeps coming.

You know. So. Right now. That's kind of what I was asking you. Where is your head as far as dog training. And I'll tell you where. What am I about right now. Because it's not like. I mean. The punishment. And. All this is. Yeah. It's important. It's. It's actually super important. I cannot take that away. But. The way. Like. Like. Where I'm focused right now. Very much. And that's mostly. You know. It's. Kind of. Priming the brain. Predispositioning. Creating the right environment. So when something is learned. It's associated. With good. In a good mindset. In a good emotional state. And there is so many different ways. That you can do that. And this is just. So freaking interesting for me. Also. The. There is these opportunities now. Of. How you would have the. You know. In the young dogs. You have the critical periods. Where. I mean. Same with kids. Where everything gets formed. And you kind of decide. That okay. This is. A cool thing to do. This is not so much. Or this is dangerous. And not so much. And. And there is. Really moment in life. In time. That you. Being a human. Being a dog. Being. Whatever. You. You really. What you would call. The neuroplasticity. You know. When. When your brain is very spongy. And you. You. Really. Make. Rules. That get saved. In your brain. And there is ways. To crack it open. And reprogram it. And this is cool stuff. You know. Another thing. How. How are you. With the. AI. This is super interesting. Too. I mean. We are living. Like. In a freaking. Amazing place. I couldn't. Log into a zoom call. You think. That I am utilizing AI. No. No. I have no interest. Man. You know. What freaked me out. I have a client. I think in Belgium. Somewhere overseas. I think in Belgium. An online client. And. Guy is doing a great job. And. He took a bunch of my YouTube videos. That pertain to what he is dealing with. He put them into AI. Submitted it. And then. He started. Asking questions. And AI. Answers the questions. As if it were me. And I went over all the stuff. That AI was saying. And it freaked me. The shit out. Man. Like. It was. I don't know if it's good or bad. But it was me. Talking. Like. If I had to answer the questions. There were even things where. I didn't have the answer. I wasn't 100% sure. And. Like. Me. As AI. Said. You know. I'm not 100% sure. There's a couple of different routes. I'd go with this. But I can't guarantee. That this is the answer. And I was like. Oh my God. We've entered a whole new world. Man. That's. That's. That's really scary. Great possibilities. I guess. But it freaks me out a little bit. I told my wife. I said. Listen. If you see a picture of me in bed with a beautiful woman. It's AI. I didn't really do it. Just in case. Okay. Just in case.

Got people that don't like me very much out there. You know. The hardest thing is that it just keeps moving so fucking fast. Like. Like you're just. I mean. Like it's. It's a. It's not even a race. It's a chase. You're just constantly chasing it. And just as soon as you kind of. Start to feel a little comfortable. Well. There is. The next. Evolution. Of being. Chad. GPT. Being. Grog. Being. Whatever. And. And you're like. Man. I mean. But. Yeah. But that is interesting. Because. You know what is interesting for me. I'll tell you. I think I. So. A few weeks ago. I was playing. Soccer with. One of my dogs. Barefoot. As. As I always do. So. I make her miss the ball. But she doesn't miss my leg. So she. Yeah. Like just. Tucks a canine. Right between my toes. Oh. It gets. Super swollen. And I. I mean. I don't even want to say on a podcast. How many years I'm in this. And how many times I have bites. I know. I can. I can stitch myself. I can super. I. I've taken. I had a really. Cool friend at the time. That was a. ER doctor. And. He was training dogs. With me. And one day. He's like. I just need to sit you down. We don't need to pay. For ER. All the time. You know. And then just like. Three days. He really like. Taught me. What to do. And he also. Telled me. And here. You go to the. ER. And you don't fuck around. Anymore. Right. Yeah. And so. Two days go by. And I'm like. I need to go. So I go to the hospital. They look at my foot. And it's just like a. Like a watermelon. Compared to the other. The. Whatever. The nurse just kind of touches it. And he's like. You need to stay. And. Hopefully we save your foot. I mean. That was like. Holy shit. Yeah. That was like her first. Word. You know. I'm like. What the fuck. I knew it was wrong. I knew something was. Not. A normal bite. But. So my. As she beat me. My. Toe also broke. And. Possibly. The infection. Started to go. Inside the bone. Which is super dangerous. Wow. Anyway. I mean. I'm. I'm almost. I'm now walking. And I'm very. I'm still bare. I'm back to being barefoot again. But. So I. I'm like. All night there. And have nothing to do. So I'm like. Let's just debate with AIs. On. Force free. And whatever. You know. Yeah. And. What is interesting. Right now. And it's dangerous. Is that the. And I hope that this. Soon. Gets corrected. And just by evolution. Of the AIs. To where. It starts to. It starts to reason. A little bit more. Instead of just collating. Data. And telling you like. Like. In a nutshell. Why force free is better. Well. Because. There is so many studies. And those studies are referenced. So many times. And they're peer reviewed. And. To the AI. The way it's programmed. That's. The most legit. Like. Right. Obvious answer. Right. But. When you say. Well. Let's look at one study.

And let's break it down. And let's find the flows. And so on. And so on. And of course. Things starts to change. Um. But what I. Did. It was super. You know. I mean. Just having fun. Because I had nothing else to do. You know. It wasn't like sleeping. And. I'm like. Well. Let's just. Just debate about. Forget studies. Let's just. Talk about this. If. If. If. If. A person walks in a room. And has to get from point A to point B. Blindfolded. And has positive and negative. Hot and cold. What would the person use? Unarguably. You need both feedback. Right. Right. Right. That's good. And so I took it like this. For. For a very long time. With. With. Just very. Everyday examples. Of. Why. Why. Aversives. Have place. And why aversives. Are not. Inherently. A bad idea. I mean. You. You take any. Any interesting game. Like. Pick any human game. That is. Very interesting. There is some. Element. Of discomfort. And aversion. And overcoming. That aversion. And if you don't. You get punished. And if you do. Yeah. Right. So. The. The interesting thing. Is that. AI. Right now. It's in a. It's in a difficult. Place. As far as. Like. If anybody. Uses it. To say. Well. Should I use. Some. Some. I don't know. Whatever you call it. Correction. Punishment. Whatever you want to call it. And. It would say. Well. No. Because. There is enough. Evidence. That. There are better ways. And. And when you. Try to talk about aversives. It's just. Not gonna. Be. Unless you. You really go deep into the woods. And. Then. Then. It. It. It becomes different. But. Until the day comes. And hopefully. That's one thing. That. At least. Is going so fast. That. Eventually. It will start to. You know. Think. And reason. A little bit more. Have. Have. A little bit of a. Own. Own. Opinion. And. It's own take. And then things will change. But right now. It's a scary thing. Because. All the data. That is out there. And everything. That it's using. Unless you really. Force it. It's all force free stuff. And. Well that's because. That's what consumes. The online world. They have the numbers. Right. You know. So of course. AI is always going to point. In that direction. You know. And as far as that side goes. You have to understand too. There's a lot of people. On that side. And I've learned this. Over the years. In the past 10 years. Doing seminars. This has really opened my eyes. There's a massive population. On that side of the fence. That they imagine things. That don't exist. It's an imagination. Like when you talk about. Using aversives. Or a balanced trainer. They imagine the worst. It's that what if. Comes immediately. Right. But then. To be fair to them. If you. Type in. Balanced training. And you look at the biggest names. That come up. Like it's justified. Why they think like that.

I totally understand it. You know. I really get it. But I've talked about this. In the past. Quite a bit. Like I remember. Several years ago. There was a young lady. Young trainer. That came up to me. I think I was in. In Texas somewhere. Doing a seminar. And she said. I want you to know. She came up to me at lunchtime. She said. I want you to know. I came here to hate you. I'm like. What are you talking about? What do you mean? She's like. Well. I'm a force free trainer. And I came here. To disrupt things. And hate you. And I said. Really? She goes. Yeah. But this isn't what I expected. Like I didn't know. That balance trainers. Train like this. Like this isn't what I was told. And that was very eye opening to me. So. Next several seminars. I would tell that story. That made me very happy. And I'm talking for the next two years. Every seminar. At least one person. Would come up to me at some time. And say. I was the one who came to hate you. I'm like. Oh. What do you. Like. That's a yes. And I said. No. I understand. I totally get it. You know. So there's a massive population. On that side of the fence. That doesn't. They've never seen anyone. Train a dog properly. Or humanely. Or will we. You know. How much. People like myself. Or like you. And many out there. Care about the dogs. They just have no idea. They're thinking the worst of the worst. Because. They're following the biggest names. On the force free side. And. And that's a problem. They let their imagination run wild. And then if you type in. Something about. E-collars. Or prong collars. Chances are. You're not popping up. I'm not popping up. I may pop up. If they're talking about e-collars. But guess what. Back to our discussion. In the podcast. Ivan. There's a reason. Why. Those people. Have never come after me. With the e-collar stuff. That was part of my goal. How many minds. Can we change. Whether. Whether you believe. It's right or wrong. Scientifically. Doesn't matter. Part of my goal. Was how many minds. Can I change. Because. I was a hater. Of the tool. Hated it. Because I love dogs. And my. Only introduction. To e-collars. Was as a hunter. I'm a big hunter. So as a kid. As a little kid. 10 years old. 11 years old. I'm in the woods. Of. In New Jersey. Pheasant hunting. And I'm watching. These dogs. Screaming. And running. Further away. From their handlers. As they're frying them. You know. You're talking. Early 80s. You know. I'm 10 years old. 11 years old. And I was like. Why would anyone. Ever use them. And so then. In the early 2000s. When the internet. Started picking up traction. And I saw. Certain. Big names. On the internet. At the time. And it was a lot of. E-collars. So I was like. Wait a second. Those dogs. Don't look.

Like the dogs. That I remember. So I went. And I learned. From these people. But immediately. Immediately. I was like. This doesn't make sense either. It's better. Than it was. But. Using. Pressure. Or simultaneous. Conditioning. At the same time. Every time. You tell the dog. To do something. That makes no sense to me. Right. Makes no sense to me. You understand. So I was in. Further. Desire. To go on. And there's got to be. Better ways. And luckily. I started finding. The right people. But then when I saw. All the dogs. That were getting destroyed. With this tool. I was like. Why? Like this doesn't make sense. There has to be. A better way. So I didn't create nothing. I just knew. That. People with no skills. And ability. Were going to use this tool. How can I make it. Easier on the dog. How can I stop. The average person. From destroying dogs. With this tool. Because it was. It's not as bad. As it used to be. Thank God. But we still have a ways to go. For sure. Yeah. For sure. I've worked with people this week. Where I had to tell them. Guys. Like. You're too much. With the collar. We got to just. Back off of it. It's not necessary. You don't need it. For all the things you're doing. And to be honest with you. It becomes. It becomes useless. At some point. When you're using it. So often. For everything. You know. So these are conversations. We're still having. We shouldn't have to still have them. But. When someone gets into dog training. Or someone hires a dog trainer. It's a crap shoot. On who they discover. And which route they take. And that can make or break them. You know. It can make or break them. And we see people. Spending $20,000. $30,000. On dog training. And the dog's worse than it was before. That's unacceptable. It's absolutely unacceptable. I have friends. That have massive followings. I'm friendly with them. We get along. We talk. But I never recommend them. To people. Because I don't agree. With how they train. And to be honest with you. I don't think. The skill level. That they think they have. Is there. Right. Right. If they ask me. Why don't you send people. My way. Hey. I'm in this city. You send it to this person. I'm always going to be honest. And I lose friends. Because of that all the time. But when it comes down to it. Friendship is not as important to me. Because you're not my true friend. If you're. You're training the way. I'm not comfortable with. And just by sending someone. A different route. The well-being of the animal. Is going to come first to me. And sometimes. I ruffle some feathers. And I rub people the wrong way. And listen. I'm not always right. I make mistakes. I do things that I regret. We all do. That I regret.

But if you're out in this interweb world. And you're. You're. You're talking a lot. And you're putting stuff out there. There's going to be things that you do or say. Where you're like. Shit. I wish I wouldn't have said that. Let me. Let me ask you this. How much do you think this is. The type of person. It is. Or the lack of knowledge. That that person. Has. And doesn't really. Even attempts to search. More education. Honestly. I think for the majority. That's a struggle for me. Yeah. No. I think for the majority. At least the people I know. A lot of the people that have big platforms. I be. I think the attention becomes addicting to people. And you could tell by the people who suffer with that. When they feel they have to post shit. That makes no sense. And has no meaning. Every day. They need that attention. They need that. That. You know. We talk about. Dopamine. And dog training. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it becomes an addiction. To a lot of trainers out there. That. That have social media. And they need that attention. I know this. The reason why I'll never have a million subscribers. On YouTube. Is because I might go two months without posting something. I don't look like. Oh man. I don't. I. This algorithm. I don't know. I don't care about that stuff. When I have something to say. I say it. And I post it. If I don't. I say nothing. Because there was a time. 10. 15 years ago. Where I started feeling that. Holy shit. I didn't post anything today. Right. And then what happens is. You're posting stuff. Just to post it. And you're a fraud. You're not real. You're just being a fraud. You're being a fraud to yourself. You're being a fraud to the people who trust you. And I refuse to go that route anymore. I stopped that a very, very long time ago. Because it didn't feel good. Just to make a video or post something. Because someone told you you had to. Your numbers are dropping. I don't give a shit about my numbers. I don't care. And so I'm never going to have millions of subscribers like people do. Listen. I have 15 million views on my YouTube channel. That blows my mind. I have the most unprofessional challenge channel out there in all of dog training. So the fact that people watch my stuff somehow still. When I'm not consistent with it. It's not edited. I use my iPhone. I don't have video equipment. If I have something to say that I think is going to benefit someone. I'll do it. I'll say it. You know. Do I still regret things I say or do sometimes? Yeah. Absolutely. Like I've learned my lesson in the past year or two. If I see someone that I'm fairly friendly with. And they say something or do something or post something that I don't agree with.

There's been times where I'd be like. Hey. Like respectfully I disagree with that. And here's why. I won't even do that anymore. It doesn't go well anyway. Right. Never goes well. Yeah. It sucks. It never goes well. So I've learned just to stay out of that. Like if someone asked me a question. Hey. What do you think about this trainer? You know. I don't know. Ask around. Like I have nothing to say. Now if it's someone that I trust. Hell yeah. Top notch. 100%. I trust. I trust him or her to train your dog. 100%. But it's gotten to a point where you can't disagree with anyone. Because even if they're like. Yeah. No. No issues. Well. We could talk about it. It's never the same. Correct. It always creates problems. It's very, very strange. I think it's not just you. It's not just me. I think almost everybody feels the same way. Including any side of that conversation. This is a very delicate. It's becoming almost like a. Like how do you. Problem solve that. You know. When you. Yeah. Exactly what you explained. I don't want to even repeat it. It's such a difficult thing. Because. On one side. You feel. Almost obligated that you should. But then. On another side. You know. Very well. That you shouldn't. And it's just. Titting you apart. And the best thing to do. Is just to fucking shut it off. And. And think of something else. Right away. And it's. It's not in my nature. To turn away from it. Though it's hard. You know. It's hard. You know. I've posted. I've posted videos in the past. Of trainers abusing dogs. Like. That's something I struggle with man. Right. I don't. People send me shit. And I get mad. Because I don't want to see that stuff. But at the same time. You feel like. If I don't share this. You know. What. When am I? Am I. A decent human. If I don't put this out there. But. I don't know if you saw this Ivan. But. About six months ago. About a year ago. I had posted a video. Of a trainer in Kansas City. Abusing a dog. He was supposed to be training. Was it the hunters. Or was it the guy with the crate. With the. The guy with the crate. Fucking nuts. Yeah. That wound up going viral. Like. It exploded. I watched that. At least 20 times. Yeah. Trying to. Put myself in his mind. And trying to. To see. 100%. Their logic. You know. And so. I wound up being interviewed. By the news out there. We talked about it. And you know. They. They. They. Arrested the guy. I don't know what the charges were. This and that. But then. Recently. Like a couple of months ago. My. My. DMs. And Instagram. My personal email. Facebook. Everything. I had. Hundreds. Of messages. And I'm going. Holy shit. What's going on here? And I started reading them. And it was death threat. After death threat. People just wanting me dead.

Saying the most vile things. And I had no clue. What this was about. And then I realized. And I don't know if they did this on purpose. Or it was just. Bad planning. The way they did it. There was a rescue. That put that video back out. And resurfaced. And they put my name in the video. So now. All these people. That don't know me. Are watching this video. And they think that's me. And they're coming after me. And then there were people. Who knew it wasn't me. But would say. Why were you filming this. And not stepping in. I can't respond. To 1500 people saying. I'm not filming this. That's not me. Someone sent me. So after that. I told people. I said. If you send me stuff like this. I'm just blocking you. I don't want to be part of this. Because. See. They send it. Thinking. Hey. You have a little bit of a name. Or a following. You need to get this out. But they don't see the repercussions. And the stress. That that causes you. And your family. Sure. I would love to be effective. In putting this stuff out there. And going after this people. But they don't see. What comes behind that. Correct. And listen. If it was justified. If it was people. Related to this guy. And his family. Or dog trainers. That are pro abuse. Coming at me. No problem. I'll deal with it. But you're talking about people. That think. That's me. Like. How fucking stupid. Could you be. And so. From that moment on. I was like. If you send me this stuff. I'm blocking you. I want nothing to do with it. You know. Listen. I've. I've posted things. I've posted things. Because. People will threaten me. If you don't share this. I'm going to make your life hell. Dead serious. And it's. It is. Sometimes it's stuff. That I think people should know. And then I share it. And. That might have been. Something to do with someone. That I know. And kind of have a. Personal relationship with. I don't even know. If it's true at this point. But I gave in to the pressure. And I'm like. Man. Screw this. I'm done with this. That's the stuff that people don't see. My wife. Left. Corporate America. About a year ago. Very successful. Very good in the business world. Very successful career. Made good money. She left. To help me. Right. She handles all my stuff. She was on the job. For two days. Taking care of emails. I have three emails. One of them had 90,000. Unread emails. After two days. She said to me. I don't know. How you deal with this. You don't know. I don't understand. Like. And then she said. I understand you a lot better now. I know. Why you get the way you do. At certain times. I don't talk about that stuff. I don't talk about the things I see. Or things. People. Send me. Good and bad. I just. I just don't do it. You know. But. If.

You have a little bit of a voice. In this industry. It could elevate you to feel good about yourself. But it could also eat away at you. And destroy you. And these are things that people. Never ever talk about. Yeah. You know. Never talk about. No. That's like. I mean. I know at first hand. Man. It's just the same thing. The same thing. Very tough. Very tough. Because you're torn. And. But I. I have taken the same route as you. It is very hard to. Because. For one. You. Let's say you make a post. And let's say. You say. Well. This is. And you say it in a. Very civil way. This is. It can be done better. That's not. How dog training should be. And that's not how we should treat. And whatever. However. That's not the end. That's actually. That's just. You just. Open the can of worms. And now you have to deal with this. For. A week. Or two weeks. Or a month. Or who the fuck knows. And who wants to be. In this space. In their brain. Right. Yeah. It's hard. It's not good. That's a very. Very tough one. It is. Because then if you ignore it. You feel like shit too. So you can't win. You can't win. You see bad things taking place. You know. You just can't win. And. I think it depends on the mood. That I'm in at the moment. Whether I address it or not. You know. Or how I address it. If we. If we are to address it. We have to be extremely. And I'm sure you've learned that yourself as well. Like just because you watch. A snippet. A snapshot of a moment in time. Yeah. That doesn't necessarily mean. Yeah. What the outcome is. Yeah. Like I. I always tell. Like in my students. Or in seminars. It's like. If you go somewhere. And you don't like something. For that moment. Don't turn your back. And don't walk away. Right at that moment. Because. There might be. A light. At the end of the tunnel. And there might be. A very bright light. With a very. Intelligent. Way. How that's. Designed. Sure. Or it can go. Horribly. Bad. Right. Yeah. But. But. The way we are right now. It's like. Oh. Here is a video. 10 seconds. What do you think? I don't think anything. Right now. Don't. Don't make me think about. Anything. On 10 seconds. Of video. Yeah. You know. One of my lowest points. Where I felt like. I didn't want to do this anymore. About. A year ago. Year and a half ago. I was doing a seminar. In Arkansas. And. It was over. It was done. And me and the hosts. Were going out to dinner. And my phone started blowing up. And I checked. And there was a TikTok video. That someone made about me. And. When we go back. To talk about. Some of the punishment stuff. This girl took a video. That was private. I don't know how. Oh. I know. What it was. I posted. Like a. A short clip. Not showing. All the stuff. But. Or. Something to that effect.

And she took it. And did a voiceover. And talked about. All these bad things. I was doing. To these dogs. And. I was devastated. Like. It. It crushed me. Like. I felt sick to my stomach. And I'm thinking. Like. If you were there. Like. How could you say that? You saw everything. That. That went down. Everything we did. You know how we are. With these animals. And then. Someone. Finally sent me a message. They said. Look at the fine print. Down at the bottom of the video. And in very tiny print. She states. That she wasn't there. She didn't see anything. That took place. But because. She saw the setup. She assumed. Her imagination. Real wild. And because. We do see trainers. Do this bullshit. That she was talking about. She just assumed. I'm doing the same thing. That these other. Douche bags. That. Do shit. That make us all look bad. We're doing. That made me feel. A little better. But not. I still felt like shit. Like it. It. At that moment. I was like. I don't even want to do this anymore. Right. Like. It absolutely crushed me. Because you. Listen. You could tell me. I suck as a dog trainer. I'm an asshole. I'm an arrogant prick. Say whatever you want. But if you accuse me. Of treating one of these animals poorly. I'm destroyed. Because I don't do it. Right. Anything I do behind the scenes. Is the same shit I do. In front of the camera. And so. If I have someone. From California. Who wants to. Drop a dog off. For a boarding train. I persuade them. Not to. I say. I know. Great trainers. Out that way. There is no. No reason. For you. To drive. Across the country. It's not worth it for you. I tell people this. And they'll insist. No. And when I ask them. Why. Why do you insist. On coming this far. I've only had one answer. I've never had a different answer. It's been the same thing. Every time. It's. Because we see. How the dogs. Look with you. Yeah. We know what you're doing. We know you're not doing. Anything behind the scenes. That we don't want our dog. To go through. That's how bad dog training. Has gotten. That people will drive. Three days. And pay good money. To do a boarding train. For a dog. That doesn't need it. Right. They don't need it. Like this is a good dog. Without problems. Which. Onto that subject. I don't think. I will do that anymore. Because I do get dogs. In for a boarding train. That don't have any. Behavioral problems. People just want training. Right. But the problem is. Ivan. I don't know how you feel about this. I tell people this all the time. When a dog. Has behavioral problems. It's very easy. To satisfy. The client. Because. You could do. Usually. Very good things. For a dog. That has behavioral problems. In a decent amount of time. It doesn't take forever. For the most part.

To see visible change. Right. And so. When you give a dog. Back to someone. And start working with them. They're like. Oh my god. This is great. Like they see the change. When you take a dog. With no behavioral problems. People just want. You know. A higher level of obedience. It's very hard. To satisfy them. In a month's time. You know. They think. That dog's going to. Look like. My Dante. Or Mango. Or Luca. And. They don't understand. Like. No. Here's. Here's what you have to do. Now. To continue this. You know. So. I don't think. I'll take dogs anymore. For a board. Like. As a business. Standpoint. I would be an idiot. To turn them down. Because it's easy. Right. But I can't do it. Justifiably. Because. It makes me feel. So bad. That this dog. Is so easy. And. Some people. Will think. The dog's going to come in. And look different. You know. Well. If the dog. Had no problems. How. How do you measure that? And so. That's something. That I won't do anymore. I won't take dogs. In for a board. And train. That don't have. Behavioral problems. I just won't do it. Unless. Unless. Like. Sometimes I do. Like. I. I go back and forth. On this. And sometimes. I'm like. Yeah. I know that I. I personally. Don't have time. To do. The. I actually. Don't have time. To do. Any of the pet dogs. Unless. I pick some. Crazy case. Just because. It's super interesting. For me. Sure. For my. For my. Evolution. And. Hopefully. To save the dog. But other than that. Man. Where was I going to go. With this now. I just started smoking. Blowing smoke. Up my ass. Well. Well. I'll help you remember. Maybe. I. And you've probably heard me. Tell people this. Right. So you're known. We both have our critics. Obviously. We know that. You're known. As an IGP guy. As a Schutzen guy. As a Malinois guy. And that's it. Right. And when I tell people. And many people have heard me say this. Listen. In my opinion. My useless opinion. I believe. Ivan's better. On the problem side of things. The behavior side of things. Than he is the sport dog things. And people. Look at me like I'm an idiot. I'm like. I'm just. I'm just giving you my opinion. Right. Because I know. Some of the things I've taken. Have helped me immensely. And I was pretty good. With. With bad dogs. But there's things. That have helped me immensely. You just. You're not good about. Talking about. Or showing that stuff. You know. So people again. Assume things. They assume. Why. Why would I send. A difficult dog. To an IGP trainer. Well. There's a lot of. Sport dog trainers. Out there. That are brilliant. With dogs. No matter what the issue. Brilliant. And that's what they don't understand. So for a pet dog trainer. To think that. They can't benefit. From learning. From a sport dog trainer. They're thinking.

Competition stuff. They're not thinking. Overall. Learning. Theory. Right. Right. How dogs learn. In general. And that. To me. I didn't start talking about this recently. This is something. I've been preaching. 15 years. To pet dog trainers. Correct. Because I knew. What it did for me. I knew what it did for me. Once I took the things. I'm. I've. I've been. Pretty good. At raising dogs. For a very long time. Rottweilers. Malinois. German Shepherds. Right. Whatever. I've done really well. All my dogs are social. I could take them anywhere. But once I took what I knew. At that end. And I took the stuff. I learned. From the. The Barts. And the Michaels. And you. Man. It took me to a different level. And I want that. For everyone. Yeah. I'm not doing it. The shit on the pet dog world. There's brilliant trainers. In the pet dog world. You know. And I know many of them. But if you can grasp. Both ends. It's going to make you better. There's no question about it. There's no. Like. That's something that I will. Say to the day that I die. I know it has for me. I know it has for me. Yeah. It gives me options. When I'm working with difficult dogs. Right. I'll do something. And people will go. Holy shit. That was brilliant. I still. 15. 16 years later. Say yeah. That was something. That I saw Bart do something. With the dog. I saw Ivan do something. With the dog. Right. I. I pay attention to that stuff. And I try to make it my own. I may do it. Maybe a little different. But I do what comes comfortable. To me using what I've taken. From watching you guys. In that world do. Ultimately. We all have to. Adventure. I mean. You know. Like the best example. I give always. Is. Like the. The music industry. Let's say. Let's say some. Young kid. That's super talented. It's not going to get famous. By making. Its own song. It's going to start. With a cover. Right. It's going to do another cover. And it's going to be. Okay. And. And eventually. You have to. Once you have. And this is the important. Difference. Between the influencers. Because they don't have that. But once you have. The knowledge. And you kind of let it simmer. In your head. And you let it practice it. Of course. You're going to. Become your own entity. And that's the beauty of it. That's like. The. The best part of it. To. Sure. To be able to. It's like. Okay. Yes. I'm taking all this. And. I'm. Now. Giving. An extra spice. An extra. Like. It's perfect. Right. For sure. Yeah. But you know. I. I got back to. My thought. Again. With the pets. The. The basic obedience training. That's no behavior problem. Some. Sometimes. I actually like them. Because. There are these people. That have a nice dog. They have. Very good. Intention. To do something cool. With the dog. But they just.

Kind of stuck. Walking around the block. Don't know what to do. You know. Sure. Yeah. And. And. It. I find it actually. Very. Rewarding. To show those people. How much. You can do with your dog. That doesn't have problems. You know. Yeah. And. And then you see them. Just. Wow. Okay. We're doing. I mean. They're just so excited. To go back home. And do. Pet tricks. Or whatever. Whatever it is. You know. Yeah. Yeah. It's a. It's a tough. Interesting stuff. You know. On the other hand. What. Like somewhere. As you were talking. I thought of something. There is this other. It. Man. It's just such a hard. That our. Industry is very. Difficult. One. One. Of the. Dangers. Is when you. Somebody. A trainer. Right. Being. And. And I wouldn't say. Young trainer. A beginner. Or season trainer. But. But you get a dog. That let's say. It has a problem. Whatever that is. Let's. Leash reactivity. Whatever that means. Sometimes. I don't even know. What. I have to ask. 20 questions. After somebody says. My dog is leash reactive. To actually understand. Sure. What are we. What do we need to do. But. There is. A lot of dogs. That have zero problems. Sure. And. A trainer. Gets credit. For. Solving. This big puzzle. And doing this. Big counter conditioning. Behavior. Ability. Reputation. And all this stuff. On a dog that. Didn't. There is nothing there. Right. And all of a sudden. Your head grows. And you're like. Okay. I'm like. Really good. It's like. You. You. Didn't have a problem. To solve. To begin with. These are interesting. For me. Things. And. Sometimes. With more experience. And. You know. You. You. Stay long enough. In the. Business. You start to realize. That there is levels. Right. Of. Of. Problems. Of. Of. Of. Everything. There is just levels. But. You know. How you said. Just show me some training. Man. Just. And not show me training. But show me. Show me where. It all starts. Show me how bad it is. Hmm. Don't. Don't provoke it. Don't. Don't make it. Ridiculous. Just because you need to make a video. But. My. Most. Like. Just disturbing. Thing. With the force free. Is. When we're talking about specifically. Behavior problems. And euthanasia. And I. I. I. I would say this. At anybody. And I wish that somebody. Can prove me wrong. Eventually. When. Uh. The. And. Again. I don't want to. Shit on every single. Force free trainer. Because there is. A very good training. Going on there. But. When we're talking about aggression. Dog to dog. Human. Whatever. Resource guarding. Something. That. Actually. Things can go. Awfully wrong. Right. And we say. Well. We tried everything. Including. Medication. And. The best thing to do. Is to euthanize the dog.

And you fucking. Haven't even. Said. To that dog. No. That's a bad idea. Don't do it. Yeah. Like you just. Haven't even said that. Right. And you. Right. You're telling me that you. Tried. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. And. I really believe. And I hope that somebody. Can prove me wrong on this. Is that where. The. The. Average. And I have to say again. The average force free trainer. Quits and gives up. On a problem. Is where actually. Most. Experienced. Serious trainers. Start to consider it. As a problem. To work with. Sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So. So. You. You've. You've. You've talked to this person. Before. And I won't. I won't use names here. Because it's not my. Podcast. But someone. Mentioned his name. And look. He seems like a great guy. He's a likable guy. He's on the force free side. And people had mentioned. His name. For a situation. And one of your people. Again. I won't say his names. Commented and said. Has anyone ever seen him. Work with a dog. Right. And I like the comment. Because I'm thinking of this myself. Am I crazy? Right. Like I've never seen them. Work with a dog. You know. Or. Or they are working with. Sorry to interrupt you. But. Or they are working with a dog. But they are showing me some. Counter conditioning. It's like. Okay. No. Don't look at there. Look at me. But. But we are. We don't know. Actually. How bad is the dog. Because the moment I see the dog. I'm like. Guys. Knock it off. And I'm pretty sure. That that. Can be the end of it. Instead of. Two months of. Rehab. It's. It's. It's. It's. You know. I think. You had said something. About these videos. A while. It's about four years ago. I think it's. Right during. When I was taking your course. Or after. Or right before. I can't remember when. But I had a dog. That was going to be put down. It was. It was a. Cane Corso. With human aggression. Issues. Oof. And Cane Corso. With human aggression. Yeah. So. I. I met. You know. I. The owner came from far away. And. And the reason I took her on. Ivan. And this is important to me too. Right. She had. I finally got a message from her. She had sent me a bunch of messages. That I didn't see. And I finally saw one of her messages. She said. Listen. Here's the situation. I signed up for your Florida. Seminar. But it was a year away. And she said. I don't know what to do. I was supposed to put this dog down. She said. If I. Drive to you. Fifteen hours. Fourteen hours. Wherever it was. And if I rent an Airbnb. For the week. Will you work with me? When I saw that message. I said. If someone's willing to do this. I'm not turning her away. And I said. You got your boarding train. Come out here. I'm. I'm. Bumping everyone out of the way. I'm taking you. Because that's the kind of person. I want to work with.

Absolutely. You're right. Absolutely. When she got here. She was in tears. When that dog started going after me. Like. She was literally. She was crying. She was so upset. And I utilized the bite suit. And we went in my yard. And he did his thing. And yes. On the surface. I understand. Why people suggested this dog. Be put down. But in reality. This was a very scared dog. He was not a dangerous dog. He was a scared dog. And I literally had to make a video. Think about how sad this is. I had to make a video. Talking about this. Saying. Think about this people. I could have taken that dog. You saw what he was like. When he showed up. I could have added a little pressure. And made him really seem like the worst dog. On the face of the earth. And then I could have done my thing. And showed him at the end. Happy. As good. And he'd be like. Wow. The best trainer in the world. I didn't do that. But that's what people do. People do. Very much so. 100%. And so. I documented and videoed. Everything with that dog. And do you know. When I was. I used the bite suit. For the first couple days. With that dog. Every time I took him out. And I can't tell you. How many messages. I got from the so-called experts. Why I shouldn't be trying. To get this dog to play. Why I shouldn't let him bite things. All these things. Or. How will this transfer. To the real world. I didn't argue with people. I said. Well. We'll have to wait and see. So after the first couple of days. When I knew he trusted me enough. Not to react poorly toward me. I tried to get him to play with me. Which he had no interest. But I. I didn't. And I'm. I'm going to. I'm giving you all the credit here. People are going to say. Why are you kissing this guy's ass? Because it's. It's true. Because of some of the things. You've put out. When I watch you. Try to get a dog to play. For 45 minutes. That wouldn't chase a ball. Like. It makes you think. Okay. I can't quit. So quick on this dog. So every day. First thing in the morning. I tried to get him to play. And he had no interest. But then eventually. I'm using a flirt pole. And he moved a little bit. Towards a flirt pole. I said. Oh shit. I got him. And your heart skips a bit. Right? That's it. Fucking insane. And very quickly. That became life. For him. Life. Like. He became. And. And I'll try. I get emotional. Every time I talk about this dog. Because. He was. A different dog. And so many people. Would have. Exploited. His issues. To make them look better. That I had to make a video. And say. This is what I could have done. I'm not doing that. This is who this dog really is. You know. That became life for him. But then you still had people saying. How does this translate to the real world?

Well. To this day. Four years later. His owner will send videos. Of him. Off leash in public. Playing with strangers. It was everything to him. And you. You made several comments. At the time. On what I was doing there. You know. But I was hoping. That if I filmed everything. And showed people. How powerful this could be. It's going to change. A lot of minds. And listen. While I was doing that. It was doing that. It was effective. People are going. Shit. Wait a second. Like. Maybe. He's not bullshitting. On this stuff. Right? It was powerful. At that time frame. Of the one month. That I kept that dog. But then people forget. Very quickly. And they go back. To what comes natural. To them. That's a problem. They don't change. I had this conversation. With Bart. Many years ago. Because. I didn't go. To other seminars. When I went. To his first seminar. I own. And I talk about this. All the time. Because I'm very big. On giving credit. Where credit is due. I only kept going. Back to him. At the time. Because I didn't know. Everything he knew. I'm trying to. Obtain as much. As I can. I'm never going. To be him. I'm never going. To be you. I'm never going. To be Michael Ellis. But I'm going. To do my fucking best. To take every bit. Of piece of information. That people. Like all of you. Put out there. Right? And so. After going back. To him constantly. Even at one point. He said to me. Why do you keep coming back? You know this stuff. And I said. No. You don't understand. I take something valuable. Every time. But what bothered me. Was. There was people. Doing the same thing. I was doing. Going back. Every time. And I never saw them change. They'd be like. This is amazing. And then they'd go back. To training. How they always train. And to this day. I say this. Every day of my life. I've been with clients. For me. In my opinion. The most difficult thing. In all of dog training. Is changing the human habit. Human habits. Get buried inside of us. Very deeply. And if you don't make an effort. To change them. You're going to go back. And do what's comfortable to you. What comes natural to you. And that's why. I think the most. People spend a shit load of money. On their dogs. And toys. And tugs. And balls. But people don't want to drop. Twenty. Thirty dollars. On a tripod. To watch what you're doing. You know. I have videos. On. Sit. Stay. Learn. That are doing. Incredibly well. And people say. Hey. In this one part. What did you mean by that? I'm like. I don't know. I've never watched them. I can't. I don't like watching myself. Because when I watch it. I'm going to see a bunch of shit. That I could have done better. And you won it again. Yes. I'm going to be a bunch. I'm going to see a bunch of shit.

I wish I didn't say that. I wish I would have done this better. My timing was bad there. Eight hundred something videos on YouTube. I don't have one where I don't go. Fuck. That was horrible. I could have done this better. That's reality. Right. That's reality. But what bothers me. Is that I feel like that. But someone. With minimal experience. Feels like they're doing everything right. That bothers me. And it hurts. The industry. It hurts the dogs. And the final thing. No matter how you believe. How you train. Everyone should have one thing in common. To make the dogs better. And with keeping the well-being of the animal. Number one. But unfortunately. It's not. It's not. So to this day. When Jay puts out. Listen. I talked about a dog. At this past seminar in Boston. And then the reason I talked about it. With what Jay did. Is because people have to understand this. There was a Rottweiler. When you have a Rottweiler. Or a Pitbull. Or a Malinois. It's different. Right. You're going to be judged. You're held to a higher standard. This dog had some serious. Human aggression issues. He was no joke. Right. As he appeared. Now what most people do there. You know this. They're going to kick that dog's ass. That's it. He does this. We do that. You're going to fail 100% of the time. Now if you put a muzzle on that dog. You're not going to always get the truth. Right. So when Jay put the bite suit on. And that dog is free. To make choices. First thing he did. Was charge at him. When you see a dog. The way this dog looked. Coming at you. Showing his teeth. Barking. It is hard to keep your composure. If you're not in a bite suit. But for a lot of people. Even with a bite suit. You're going to shit your pants. Right. So when that dog made his move at Jay. Eventually. He even muzzle punched him. Without a muzzle. Never bit him. Never. And because Jay didn't have a reaction. We saw who that dog really was. And by the second session. He was touching that dog. And that dog said. Well fuck it. I'll try to punk that guy over there. Walking through the room. You understand. But now think about this. If we put a muzzle on that dog. And he muzzle punches him. Oh that's a bite. Put that dog down. Every time. And that's why. How you attack issues like that. Is massively more important. Than what people think. There was a. Two girls there. With a dog. That was a breeding dog. It was a doodle. It was destroyed Ivan. It brought me to tears. Looking at this dog. It was a shell of a dog. They used it for breeding. It never felt grass. On the bottom of its feet. For three years. Couldn't do anything. I pulled that dog out. I sat on the ground with it. And I loved on it. And I touched it.

And I spoke to it. In a certain way. Does it know my words? No. But it knows my emotions. And before you knew it. That dog tucked its head. Into me tight. And trusted me. And I said okay. We're going to do something. A little different here. Right. We're going to turn. To a little productive. Negative reinforcement. I started moving. Hey girl. Sit. Pop. Pop. Come on. You can do this. Sit. Added some pressure. The dog sat. And the reward was freedom. Let's run around together. Right. And you see the dog changing. Changing. Right. Right. Day two. When they brought that dog in. First thing she did when she saw me. She got happy. Why? I'm adding a little bit of pressure to this dog. And asking her to do something she's scared to do. The very next day after that seminar. That wonderful woman who was working with that dog posted a video of that dog running in the woods with her dogs and having the time of its life. Because for the general public when you see a dog that's destroyed and shut down. They're going to want to coddle it and try to feed it. Right. They don't think let's add a little bit of controversy to this dog and help her get through it. I use your example that I took from your course all the time. All the time. You gave an example of two Belgian Malinois puppies. One is trained for six months and maybe I'm botching it but this is how I remember it. One is trained for six months to sit using only positive reinforcement. One is trained. They have the same DNA, same genetics, right? Siblings. One is trained to sit for six months only using negative reinforcement. Which one retains the behavior longer? I use that example all the time because it's important that people start to understand this stuff. Yes. But I mean even if we can even elaborate, we can add on that even further and maybe maybe for a podcast can be a little bit dangerous but adversion, adversive experience is actually fun when you're in control. 100%. You know? 100%. When you're in control, it's actually you may very likely start to seek that adversion. Just like, just I mean think humans. I mean think learning some, I don't know, picture some X games or whatever. There is a danger. There is discomfort. There is, but there is skill and there is control in it. And this becomes, nothing can compare, no treat, no cookie can compare to how you feel when you can control adverse event. I can almost guarantee you when you talk about that doodle, that dog has never had the opportunity to make its own situation better. I can almost promise you that, right? But the second we added a little bit of very intentional pressure and we show the dog the

way out, we're the ones showing the dog the way out. Once it accomplishes that, the dog feels great about itself. Whoa, wait a second. Did I just do that? Now, you have to be careful how you say things because there's so many people out there that will think of that and try to do the same thing, but being overly aversive. Oh, it's going to go horrible. Yes, this is what they talked about. And the second you're overly aversive with a dog like that, it's done. You're not getting it back. You're not getting it back. That's the difference between learning from the right people and the wrong people. Because they will talk about resilience and then you look at the dog and it's like, there is no resilience. I don't, the dog is like, can you stop? Can you like really stop everything? Yes. Fuck, man. Yes. You know, like going back to what you were talking, I mean, I'm just all over the place, but I know I'm going to forget, but you know how you were just mentioning something and I'm the same, like with every time we make a video that we're going to put out for sale. And the moment it's ready to go, I'm like, we cannot send us this. It's not like I already have a completely different take. And, and, but you know, like you can get trapped like this and never bring anything out for, for anybody to see if, you know, like, but literally every time we would make a video and I'm like, lately I try not to even watch the final version of it because I'm like already wanting to not redo the whole thing, but, but there is at least another three months of how I want to do it again, you know? Right. Right. And it's a tough one. So, so for me, I push people, like if I'm doing a seminar, there's a few things that I push on people. It's never me. It's never my own stuff. Right. I tell people, listen, I said, Dave Kroyer has a subscription. That's $10 a month. It's the best bargain in all of dog training. If you are any way into dogs, I don't care if you're not a sport dog trainer. If you're not paying $10 a month to watch his channel, you're an idiot. It's an extreme value. And it goes back and forth. It's not, it's not just, uh, uh, Yes. A dry subscription and paywall. It's actually a hundred percent. There's a couple of things that are non-negotiable possession games and chase and catch 2.0. These are things that myself and Jay also say it's non-negotiable. You have to have this stuff, right? It's, it's going to make you better, but more importantly, the things that you're learning from us that we're teaching is going to make more sense. If you study this stuff. Right. Now I can really help you. Yes.

So let's say like, um, you're the, I think it might've been the last video you put out for sale. It was the seminar in California. I'll tell you a funny story about that after you're done. Yeah. If you're a young dog trainer and you're trying to be the best you can, why is it that I paid $300 for that? And you didn't. Right. Like I need that answer. Why? What is, what is your purpose? Why you're not investing in your, in your future? Why are you not investing in trying to be better? I have a problem with that. Right. Because a lot of people look at me and they think I'm in the sweet spot where you could just sit back and make money and people know who you are. You don't have to worry. I wish I could do that. I can't. I spend way too much money on subscribing to trainers that I trust and believe in and learn from. You have to. I have a, I have someone who said they're a dog trainer. They're a young dog trainer that will do anything to get better. And then I hear them say, oh man, that seminar is four hours away. I wish it was closer. I would go. I immediately blocked them. And I'm not kidding. I blocked them because you just told me you're full of shit. You're not serious about getting better. I've been doing this 28 years. There's no doubt in my mind that I know more about training dogs than the majority of the people out there. But in December of 2024, I still drove 14 hours to go work on protection and, and, and tracking with Fabian Robinson. Why at this stage of my career, am I still paying a bunch of money and traveling that far with my dog? I will do anything I can to get better anything. Right. So the second that I see you think you're so serious, but you're not willing to do these things. No, you're not serious about it. Exactly. You're just, you're just not, you know, and that's the fact. And there's very few people out there that have that desire. I've always had that desire. I am the same man. I do the same thing. Like I, I know you do. You know, like I would do, like if I was to collect all the, you know, the tokens, the EU, whatever, the education, the force free webinars and conferences, I probably will kick the access as far as how many things I have attended. Sure. Done. The most prominent force free activists. Like I, I mean, for one thing, it's interesting. Another thing is you, you do want to learn stuff. There is, we have such opportunities to learn, right? Yeah. Yeah. It costs money, but sometimes it has to cost money. I will give you a very good example of like, I would have people that would come and just because I'm available and I will help them in IGP or pet dogs or whatever, but they don't

take it seriously. Sometimes somebody is, I'm going to give them a puppy for free and then the puppy's coming back simply because there is no value. There is no like, you know, sometimes you need to just say, I'm going to put some money money and doing that makes you, it kind of puts you in a position that you have to do something for yourself, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. See, I have, I have, I have learned the hard way that giving stuff for free sometimes can bite you in the ass. Yeah. People take advantage of it. There's people that appreciate it and people that take advantage of it. And speaking of free stuff, when, when Dante had the accident and lost his leg, I had a few people, I won't mention any names, a few very prominent breeders reach out and say, listen, when you want a puppy, I got you for free. I want to give you a puppy. Like to me, like that hits me in the fields because I don't deserve that kind of attention or generosity. But at the same time, I'm very bad at accepting things from people. I'm very uncomfortable. Right. So immediately in my mind, I have three incredible breeders. I won't say who they are offering me puppies. I can't take any of them because if I take one and I'm insulting the other two, you understand? Yeah. And I struggle with stuff like that. I, I really, really struggle with stuff like that. But the fact that people that I respect so much and do an incredible job and, and that's the other thing that most people don't understand about breeding, right? They'll see my dogs, Dante and Mango or Luca or whatever. And they'll be like, why don't you breed them? I'm like, are you out of your fucking mind? Like, that's not my thing. Do you understand how much work good breeders put into this? It's a science. It's not like, oh, that's a great dog. That's a great dog. Let's breed them. That's what people do. And that's why we have so many problems. Yeah. I respect good breeding so much. Like I'm, I'm one of those weird people that would never consider breeding my own dogs. Because when, when my buddy, John Mohawk, John, who both my Mallow and my friend, when he starts talking to me about breeding and lines, I say, John, stop. Just stop. It's so far over my head. I don't care. I trust the breeders to do right by me, right? I don't want no part of that world. That's, that's not my thing. That's, that's just not my thing. But I'm so impressed by the work that people put into things. I really am. Like, it blows my mind. Dog breeding, reputable breeders, I don't think they get enough credit from the general public at how valuable it is.

Because just like dog trainers, there's so many shitty breeders out there breeding dogs and putting dogs in homes that shouldn't be, shouldn't be done. You know what I mean? It just shouldn't. Listen, I have a two-year-old long-haired chihuahua. I never thought I'd have a small dog. I wasn't a small dog person. Yes, I get it. And so we're doing a seminar in St. Louis and Amanda Homan shows up for the seminar with one of her chihuahuas. That's just snuggling up with her. I didn't know it's from Amanda. Yes. And I said, I knew immediately, Ivan. I said to her, I said, son of a bitch. I said, I'm going to have one of these dogs. I know it. Because I was so impressed by this chihuahua that she had there. And of course, she bred it. And one day, I'm walking out of the gym. I go to the sauna every day when I'm done with my workout. And I fry myself. So your endorphins are, everything's positive in the world. Like, you can't be negative when you have a good workout and then sit in a 220 degree sauna for 30 minutes. You can't be negative about anything. So I said, you know what? Valentine's Day is coming up. And I'm going to get my wife the ultimate gift. And I called Amanda. And I said, hey, Amanda, any chance you got puppies coming up anytime soon? She said, well, I have a litter right now. I said, let me guess they're all sold. She said, well, if you want one, I'll make sure you get one. I said, fuck. I said, I want one. It's the best thing I ever did, Ivan. No, hats off. I think every trainer should have one little dog. I will never be without a little. First of all, my wife tells me at least once a month, this is the best thing you've ever given me. And it's the first dog we've ever had that he loves me. Don't get me wrong. He likes to do cool things. He likes to play. He likes to train. But he was 100% obsessed with my wife. And she's obsessed with him. That's a love that I've never seen stronger in any area of life before. You know what I mean? I will never be without a little dog again. It's life-changing, man. And to watch my six-pound long-haired chihuahua play with my Malinois, it's the most beautiful thing you could imagine. But you know this. You've done it. You've had it. You know, which I don't understand why you haven't done it since. You need to. Yeah. I mean, I had that Yorkie for a long time. Yeah, I know. And then I just couldn't just because it was very tough for me emotionally, you know? Like he... I get it. Time had to go by. And a long time went by. Like, I mean, probably six years before the other one came around.

And the way it came around was so weird because, you know, we have these expert trainers that next level of the TWC. And for them, we would bring from local rescue groups, difficult dogs. So he was one of them. Well, Natalia brings them and is walking with him and is looking at me. And I'm like, I know where that's going. But I'm like, I think it's time, you know? Yeah. But these are, you know, the dogs that you, you know, when somebody said, well, no, they're all for themselves and always trying to bend. And there is no really love. There is no... It breaks my heart. You haven't been around dogs or you're not allowing yourself to experience that. I don't know. Man, let me tell you, I was gone a couple of weeks ago. I was at a seminar. I was up in Boston and I was gone five, six days, seven days. I was gone about a week. And when I walked in, there was no one, no one happier to see me than that little joe. He lost his mind, man. I felt so loved. It's the best thing in the world. It really is. And it's not that he wants a cookie or anything else. He's just like, Larry, where you been? That's it. And you know, my son, you know, my kids have been a big part of the dog world for a long time. And it's funny because when my son was little, he used to say all the time, hey. I think we all watched them grow up, man, around your YouTube videos. Yeah, it's crazy. It's like he would say, can we get a dog that does nothing? You're not allowed to train it. Like, I just want a dog that does nothing. Right. And I understood what he meant by that. And it's funny because that statement from my son, it actually made me a better trainer because the very next dog I got was my female Malinois. And I got her for a specific reason. And I said, okay, I'm going to loosen up on my rules and boundaries and my rigid way of like always worrying about the dogs. Right. I'm going to really let things play out here. And what it turned out to be was I realized a lot of my flaws. I realized that I was too much over my dogs and not allowing enough of them just being dogs. Yes. And that's always, it's always. You, you, you always have a script, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. But a big part of that, Ivan, is because people I work with always have problems and you have to, you have to change the way you live with these dogs in a certain way because you've created so much problems. Right. And even though I've always had Rottweilers and Malinois and Shepherds, you know, I'm, I'm pretty good at raising dogs. All my dogs are intact. My males, my females, they're all together. I do a really good job there. I really, it's the only thing I ever give myself credit for.

But when my son said, can we have a dog that does nothing? It really made me think. So I got the female Malinois and I got to be honest with you. She's probably the best dog we've ever owned. She brings so much happiness to us and she's funny. She makes us laugh. You understand? She comes in here and she just does shit that makes everyone laugh. And she teases the Chihuahua and she fucks around with him constantly. But it's such a beautiful thing to watch. But now as far as the training goes, my daughter did most of the training with her. And what makes me so proud of my, my girl, she's never used food. She's never used e-collars. She's never used tools. Sometimes I would come home from work and she'd be sitting on the grass with, with Mango, my female dog. And I'd say, Hey, Hey babe, what are you doing? And she'd say, I'm just spending good time with her. We're talking quality time together. So to this day, when my daughter comes home from college, no one else exists. That dog loses her mind. That's her dog after all of this time, because of the connection that they had. You understand? And, and that I've done a few things right in my life. And, and a lot of that has to do with my kids. But at the same time, we may get 300 trick-or-treaters in Halloween. My neighborhood's insane. That dog's out there greeting everyone, playing with children. I'm very proud of that. Like, I'm very proud of that, you know, but at seven months old, I remember my daughter sending me a video. I was away at a seminar and she threw the Frisbee for her. We didn't use e-collars at seven months old. There was none of that stuff. And people make a lot of assumptions. And she threw that Frisbee. And in the middle of chasing that Frisbee, she said, man, go down. And that dog slams into a down. And a lot of my sport dog friends said, hey, dude, how did you teach that? Was that e-collar shit? I said, I didn't teach that. My 11-year-old daughter taught that. She don't use e-s. They're like, you're full of shit. I'm like, no, you don't understand. I'm, I'm being totally sincere. We don't teach a down at a distance. We teach a really good down to where the dog loves to do it. Right. And so one of the things that I've preached to pet dog trainers, if I tried to get a dog to down and it doesn't down with luring or some light pressure, I back off. To me, that dog's telling me, hey, I'm not comfortable doing that right now. Not a problem. So my daughter, when she was young, she took that as a challenge and she would say, hey, dad, do you mind if I teach that dog a down? And I said, no, go ahead and have at it, babe.

So I'd come home from work and I'd see a plastic crate top on my grass. Oh man, I like, I get emotional thinking about this. And every toy that we owned was on the grass and she'd be with the dog. And I'm like, what are you doing? She was smart enough to realize that that dog loved going in the crate top and go and turning around and going into a nice down. So she used it. She used what the dog already loved. And then she would reward her with play. I didn't tell her, watch what I do with the dogs. I didn't tell her, watch possession games. This is the intuition between a dog and a human. That's the most beautiful thing. Oh my God. It like brings me to tears. And so she would take every dog that I would bring, including my own. And she would come up with her own creative ways, 100% connection between the dogs. And what I tell people is, listen, guys, we don't teach behaviors and positions from a distance. We teach it really well next to us. And when the dog loves doing it, when we don't put the pressure on the dogs that most of you do, the distance doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. And that was my 11 year old daughter. And people are like, you're full of shit. Like, no, I'm being totally honest with you. Right. And I was just in awe of her because I learned so much from watching her with the dogs. My son has a different demeanor with the dogs. He's very calm and mellow. And so the dogs just really take to him. And it's beautiful to watch. I tried to change the way my daughter did things one time. She was trying to teach a dog something. I said, hey, Sophia, why don't you try it this way? And she said, why do you think your way is better than mine? I said, well, I've been doing this a little longer than you. And I think maybe I could help you. She said, well, I think my way is better than yours. And so I'm going to say, okay, not a problem. And I backed off. And sure as shit, you know what? That dog didn't care the way it was being taught. What it cared about was the connection between him and her. Right. And it's a beautiful thing to watch. And it breaks my heart, Ivan, because there's so many people in this dog world that will never experience that. Will never experience that. Yeah, man. These are, yeah. People that have experienced it, they will know what you're talking about. It's really amazing stuff. I have, I'll tell you similar stories like this. Like, I mean, even just going anywhere, you just go anywhere and you watch somebody. And they're not trainers. And there is the dog that doesn't know nothing. But actually, they have figured out how to do things together and enjoy life together.

And I have probably four days of video of some of my clients overseas with protection dogs. And they have, you know, they have, like, the people that take care of the dogs and trainers and whatever. One time when I went there, I asked them to teach them how to go, how to send the dog from here over there to a place. Without telling them anything. Knowing that they have very good relationship. And I'm filming. And I have it all filmed. I just have to, I have so many films like this that I have to kind of make them usable so I can use them for my school at least. But I'm watching them struggling. And the dog and the people are struggling. And it's not working out. And I'm like, I have to help. Or I have to at least ask them why this is not happening. And I'm like, I have to at least ask them why this is not happening. And it's going against any dog trainer logic. What they're doing. Well, guess what? In day three, the dogs are doing it. And they're doing it simply because you can see how the dog understands that the person is struggling to explain. But both of them on both sides are actively trying to figure it out. And are forgiving each other. It's not like, oh, this is wrong. Boom. It's like, okay, it's wrong. And we both get it that it's wrong. But we keep trying because we like each other. And we like doing things each other. And all of a sudden, it's like, okay. All right. There is, you know, very much this, what you're talking about. Yes. It's insane to see how when you have the report and the trust and cooperation comes and mistakes happen and they're recognized. But they are actively from both sides resolved. I think where we struggle, where we hurt ourselves, Ivan, is people are so quick to correct the dog for the wrong answer. Yeah. It's the conductor. The trainer is just like. It's awful. You know what I mean? I refuse to allow the people that I work with to physically correct the dog for getting the wrong answer and obedience. Because the majority of the time, the dog isn't doing something to be defiant or to be bratty or to be an asshole. Like people like to say. They don't know. We didn't do our job in teaching it properly. And when you see this dog really trying hard to comply and do what you ask, that's on us. Yes. We're not doing our proper. And, you know, the other thing, I talk about this at seminars and I try not to bring it up because I think I've spoken about it once where I didn't break down. I get very upset. Like I get very emotional about it. When you're dealing in the pet dog world, people's lives can often dictate how they deal with their animals.

And I've been very guilty of being very judgmental of people before. And labeling them very harshly and unfairly. And then I had a very rude awakening one day when we were doing a seminar. It was myself, Jay, and Joel together. And there was a mother and a daughter there. Adult daughter. The daughter had an adult pit bull. And the mother had two smaller dogs. It was a Staffy, like a Staffershire Bull Terrier. And I think it was like some kind of like Boston Terrier or something. I don't remember exactly. It's been a while ago. And I took the daughter out first to work her with her dog. And there was something off there that bothered me. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I knew there was something off. There were some issues there. And the issue was that, for one, her dog, the pit bull, and those two little dogs cannot be together. Like they were completely separated, right? And then I worked with the mom. And I'm very patient with people. I can deal with anything, but I can't deal with an excuse maker. And this mom was very difficult to work with. She joked about everything, made excuses, and wouldn't do anything you asked her. And, you know, I got a little annoyed. I was a little pissed with it. And the daughter kind of said, like, this is what we deal with, you know? Like it's a problem. And it was causing a strain on the family that they couldn't be together because of the dogs. And at one point, we were working with someone else. The daughter's in one corner, and the mom's in the other corner. And she decides to get on her phone. And she drops the leashes of... The mom. Yes. The mom drops the leashes of the two little dogs. And that Staffie and that, you know, that Boston Terrier or whatever it was. I can't remember. Frenchie. It was a French Bulldog. That's what it was. Took off across the room to attack the Pitbull. And it was chaos. It was ugly. Jay grabbed one dog. I think he grabbed the Pitbull. I grabbed the two little dogs, and it got ugly. And I ripped that woman apart. The woman. The mom. I really let her have it. You know? I was really hard on her for what she did. And then I said, there's something more going on here that you're not telling me. And we need to talk in private. Because I'm not getting the whole story here. And then we left it at that. And the very next day, the daughter shows up first. And I grabbed her. And I said, are you doing okay? She goes, yeah, I'm all right. I'm like, that was a hard day yesterday, right? She said, yeah. I said, well, I said, I think your mom hates my guts. And she probably won't come back today. She goes, nah. She hates your guts, but she's coming back today.

I said, okay. So the mom eventually shows up. And now the husband shows up with her. He wasn't there day one. So about 30 minutes into it. And I think this story is very important for dog trainers in general. Because it taught me a good lesson. About 30 minutes later, I went and I approached them. I introduced myself to the husband. And I said to the wife, I say, can we talk now? I said, you know, I know yesterday was rough. Can we have a conversation? She says, sure. And I said, look. I said, I know you hate my guts. I was hard on you yesterday. And the husband said, no, no, no. She doesn't hate you. You think you hate. She thinks you hate her and don't want her here. I said, listen, it's not about that. I said, I want to help you. I really want to help you. Because this is affecting your family so deeply. And I said, I want to help you. But she's making it difficult on me, you know. And I said, I just feel like there's something you guys aren't telling me. And when I said that, both of them dropped their heads. And the husband got teary-eyed. And the mom got very upset. It still upsets me to this day. And they're both in tears at this point. And I go, oh, man. What did I tap on here? And the mom said, I can't lose another daughter. And I said, okay. What do you mean by that? And then they continued to tell me how the daughter that's there, that I knew there was something off with, really struggles with massive depression problems. And she tried to take her own life multiple times. And I'm like, as a dad, I'm like, I can't even imagine. Yeah. This is hitting me hard, right? But then she says to me, do you know who Larry Nassar is? And the second she said that, I dropped my head. And my eyes just started tearing. And I shook my head. Yes. If you don't know who he is, he is the doctor that was raping the American gymnast females several years ago. I knew the name immediately. And I just shook my head. I said, yes. And then they continued to tell me how their other daughter was one of his first victims. He was raping the daughter or doing things to the daughter. Yeah. Yeah. With the mom in the same room. Oof. Behind a curtain. Now, to make the short things up here and not go into too much details. Now, think about this from her perspective. She will never recover from that, the mom. She's going to blame herself. The husband's going to blame her. No matter, even if he tries not to. Like, what that savage did to their little girl can't be explained to most people. Right? So, in that woman's mind, she has failed two daughters. You have one daughter trying to take her own life.

The other daughter has been through hell with that savage, that piece of shit, that garbage. What does she do? She goes out and she gets two dogs to replace her two daughters that she already failed with. She literally doesn't have the ability to tell those dogs, no, you can't do that. Which created all these problems. It broke me. Right. It broke me because I was so quick to judge her not knowing the full story. Right. But now that I have the full story, I could change the way I approach things with her. I don't need to ask for much, but I need them to win. I need to get them a win. I need to help them in some way. So, that right there allowed me to change the way I approach them. I asked for much less because I needed them to feel some kind of success here. But it also made me feel like a piece of shit for jumping to conclusions on why she was the way she was. And so, the things that we go through in life, no one has a perfect life. Nobody. I don't care who you are. I don't care how much money you have. Believe me, I work with plenty of very wealthy people and I know you do too. No one has a perfect life. The things and the difficult moments we go through in life, especially in the pet dog world, affects people immensely how they deal with their animals. And if you can't take the time to get to know the people you're working with, you're going to fuck up and make the same mistake that I did and judge people unfairly and too quickly. So, I can't stress that enough to people. It's massively important. That shit taught me a good lesson. I was wrong. I was 100% wrong because I saw everything from face value on what she was giving me in that moment. I never thought about why is she doing this? The same way people do with dogs. Oh, we have to eliminate this unwanted behavior. But we never stop to think, why is the dog thinking this way? Why is it doing this? It's all related. I'll never have all the answers. But I promise you this. I will never, ever stop and do that again. I've made that mistake once. I won't do it again. And so, when I tell this story at seminars, Ivan, I try not to because I break down every fucking time that I do. But when I do talk about this, I've never done a seminar where there's not at least one or two people in the audience with their head down hysterically crying. And then they come up to me by the end of it and say, this is what I've been through. I can't thank you enough for talking about this. And it's like, oh, my God, now I get why you like your eyes. So, this dog training stuff goes way, way deeper than what most people give it credit for. I'm not perfect.

I'm not the best dog trainer on the planet. But I will continue, continue to the day I die to interact with the human end of the leash to the best way possible. And sometimes that can be really, really difficult. But I've been taught those hard lessons. And that's the best lesson I've ever been taught when it comes from the human end, the client end. Because people go through shit and it affects them immensely. And sometimes it affects them in a way that affects everything they do with their animals. And we have to have the ability to recognize that. Yeah, man, this stuff. This stuff. And, I mean, thank you for sharing this. I know these are not easy stuff. It's not. This is not. You know, like what made me kind of reflect on this going back, way back in where we started the conversation. And we said we don't say names and whatever. And I'm fine with saying names on my podcast. It doesn't matter. But the people that we are talking about, they actually may not, they may prematurely give up on a dog. But they have developed very good skills of understanding the dynamics of what it is to be a human and to be in a family. And the dogs are just part of it. But it's not all. And there is all sorts of crazy dynamics. And sometimes it's heartbreaking like this. Sometimes the dog simply, I mean, like taking what you said, taking it to the other extreme. Sometimes people appear very ordinary, common sense, intelligent people. And you just don't know what happens in their home and why the dog is not the case because it's just a not healthy environment to be in. So there is all that. And you're so correct of understanding and taking time to understand. And you have to make somebody comfortable to be able to open up. And sometimes they don't have to. So, of course, as a dog trainer, this can help understand how to navigate with everything. But, yeah, these are, you know, the things that, as you're starting to be a dog trainer, you don't think of this stuff. You never think of this stuff. No, you don't. Never. It's like, I mean, me, I mean, way, way back when I started to be successful in sports. I'm like, oh, I'm going to make everybody being world champions, you know, and people are like, Ivan, I just want to play with my dog and have fun. And they walk out crying. And I'm like, you know, toughen up, you know, and it's just like this. And it's very wrong approach. But, yeah, we got to learn so much. It's not just dogs. It's really not just dogs, which makes it very complicated. No, the animals are a reflection of a lot of us. Right. And we don't think of that end. Like, you came here from a communist country.

You know a different level of living, right? You could appreciate things that most people don't. And I think that's why, like, politically we have a lot of the same beliefs. Yeah. Because you've seen the other side. I get people that want to make videos about me or attack me, which you get the same. And it's often the same people. I had, my son's 15, I don't know, 11 years old. I'm told at 11 years old, my son has cancer. Yeah, I remember this. That was his stuff. You think I give a fuck what you think about me personally? Are you fucking kidding me? You think you matter to me? You don't know what it's like to be told something like that. You have no idea how that impacts your life. Like, it changes everything. I'll never forget that moment. Let me tell you something. I've never spoken about this before in my life. My son had a lump on his neck. We went to get checked out. And he said, ah, it's probably just a cyst that's nothing. No big deal. I've never talked about this. Because it fucks me up a lot. And so they removed it, did what they had to do. And then we get a call that they're sending it to St. Jude's Cancer Children's Hospital in Memphis. Because they don't like the way it looks. So that fucks you up alone. Right. Okay? Right. Now, let me paint this picture for you. I've never spoken about this. Getting goosebumps just fucking listening to this shit. It destroys me. I've never spoken this about ever in my life. I'm in my garage, like, several days later after we were told this. I'm doing something for the dogs. My wife pulls in the garage. And I heard her footsteps coming toward me. And I know, I knew what it was. I knew by her footsteps coming toward me what it was. And I turned around. And I just, I said, no. No, no, no. And she just shook her head, yes. And I lost it. And it's a moment I will never forget in my life. And you think that you're going to criticize my dog training and impact me? You're fucking crazy. Right. You're fucking, you have no idea what I've been through in my life. And you could never affect me by criticizing what I do with dogs. Because I know that I put them up here. And I never do anything that I'd be embarrassed to show in public. Ever. In my life. So all that shit makes you very strong. But I'm not the only one that's been through shit. Everyone has been through things. And what I've learned by working with so many people over the years. Is that the things you've been through personally. Really dictates the way you interact with your animals. In a massive way. For the better and for the worse. And if you're a dog trainer who's truly going to affect people.

You have to understand that. You have to address it. You have to understand. And I've worked with people. And I have fired people. That are insanely wealthy and powerful people out of Nashville. That's where I'm at. And sometimes when I fire someone. My wife is blown away. Oh my gosh. Are you sure you want to do that? Yes. Because this is someone that is used to writing a check. And paying for what they want. And I can't do that. With what they're asking me to do. It's not possible. Because I don't care how much money you have. Like I'm going to do the right thing by the animal. Period. Whether you think I'm right or wrong. You can't pay me to change my opinion of that. So I'm a very flawed human being. I'm a very flawed dog trainer. But anything that I do at that time. Is in the best interest of the animal. And if I'm wrong. I will correct it down the road. And make it better. And that's just who I am. Take it or leave it. I don't care. I honestly don't care. As long as my wife and my kids at the end of the day. Can look at me and say man. I'm proud of who he is. I'm okay with that. I don't care about anyone else's opinion. And that's the God honest truth. Man where do we go from here? Yeah sorry. Let me. No no. This. I mean this is you know. It just. It's really. Life. I mean we. As you say. We all. Somewhat. Are dealing with stuff. Man it's just how it is. It's just the side of dog training. Yes. That no one talks about. Yes. Like. And I don't understand why it's not talked about. No one lives a perfect life. But yet we bring these animals into our life. And we leave out. So when I talk to someone. I really try my hardest. When I address that human. That's dealing with that dog. To get them to know them the best I can. And if I feel like I can't have a decent relationship with that human. I don't take them on. Because I'll be doing them a disservice. I can't help them as much as I should be. And just like dogs. There's dogs that. They're just not going to like certain dogs. Right. Right. And there's nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with that. There's people. There's certain people you're not going to jive with. Yes. Why would you take on someone. That you can't have a healthy relationship with. So I've been given. Like I've been given blessings. That I've never imagined in my wildest dreams. Because of some of the people. That I've been fortunate enough to work with. And I. I developed this relationship with them. And then let's say. Maybe they're going on vacation. I tell them. Don't you dare board that dog. You send them to me. You keep them. You. They stay with me. They're going to be with me and my family and my dogs.

And they'll do that. And then when they pick them up. They'll want to write me a check. How much do I owe you? No. You don't owe me anything. Like I trained your dog. You've already paid me. Yeah. But I have to pay you. For watching my dog. No you don't. This wasn't work for me. I don't want you putting your dog with some piece of shit. That's going to mistreat it. Right. And when they realize. Okay. I can't pay him. But now. Okay. What can I do for his family to make up for this? My family has been given opportunities to do things. That I would never be able to buy them in a million years. Only because the respect and admiration and love for each other goes both ways. Right. I'm not good at accepting things. I'm very uncomfortable. But when you offer something to my wife and kids. Ah man. It's okay. It's a little easier for me to accept. And then you know my my kids for a long time thought it was normal to watch a Tennessee Titans games from the GM's you know box. Yes. Or to watch a Carrie Underwood concert from the GM's box and do this. Or to be in the home of your favorite country music star and just hang out with them all day. And then hey you're going to walk them on stage. I can't pay for stuff like that. But it's because of the relationships I've built in this world where we become so together. And I love these people. And they're genuine. They're not bribing shit. Yes. This is like friendship. You know. It becomes friendship. They say he's not going to let him give us anything. He can't turn this down. Let's take care of his family. And I've developed beautiful lifelong relationships like that. Accidentally. You know. Accident. And I can't repay the people have done things. You know. This year I was at the CMA Awards with my favorite music artist. My favorite country music artist of all time. And I'm hanging backstage. Who is that? With. It's. It's Brooks and Dunn. Ronnie Dunn from Brooks and Dunn. And I never talk about that stuff. Right. But I'm sitting there. And I'm having conversations with Post Malone. And I'm having conversations with Billy Bob Thornton. And I'm doing all these things. And I'm going. This is because of dogs. Like. How did I get here that these people are so good to me. Like. I love these people. They treat my family like family. And it's because of dogs. Like. I don't deserve this. It's. It's an unhealthy relationship. That I have today. It's not unhealthy. It's actually. It's how it should go. Everybody. It blows my mind. Yeah. Yeah. You understand? It blows my mind. So. Most likely. If you flip it the other way. And you were. You know. You. You would be doing the same things. For the people that you care.

It's just human. You know. Sure. Sure. 100%. But I'm. I'm very blessed. I'm very grateful. And I will never. I was thinking about this. As we were talking. Right. Whether you love me. Or hate me. It. It. It doesn't matter. But I'm thinking. I spent 25 years. As a federal agent. Doing work that I loved. Okay. And let me explain something to you. Before I. Became a federal agent. I was. Without going into too much detail. I was 100%. The opposite. Of a federal agent. I was a bad dude. I did a lot of bad things. And when I got with my wife. I said. I can't do this stuff anymore. So people said. Well. What are you going to do? I said. You know what? I'm going to be a federal agent. People laugh their ass off. Laugh their ass off. And I understood why they laugh. I'm a bad dude. I'm a criminal. I said. I'm going to go the opposite route. That's not. That's not uncommon though. Right. And I accomplished it. You understand? I did that. And I did the dog thing. The whole 25 years. That I was a federal agent. It was really difficult. I basically had two full-time jobs. For a very long time. For a very long. But I loved the dog stuff. I loved it. I was obsessed with it. I was obsessive. But my wife points this out often. I think because I didn't have to do it to make a living. And because I had the other thing going on. That allowed me to always love it. And not get burnt out and tired of it. It gave me that desire. It was you sending in the Melanois for two or three misses. That's what I had with the dog stuff. I was doing it. But I had other things I had to do. So it made me crave it more. You know. And now that I'm retired. I have my government pension. I live a good life. Today was one of the busiest days I've ever had in my life as a dog trainer. And my wife said I'm so sorry. Like you're stacked all week before you go do the seminar in St. Louis. And I was like man that's a lot. But then when I was done with the day. I was like that was a great day. I honestly love doing this. And the busier I am happier. And then you sent me a text. And said oh man. I thought it was today. It was next week. I know. That's so weird. And we said hey should we do it today. I was like yeah let's just do it today. So I literally have not eaten a piece of food today. I woke up this morning. I started training dogs at eight in the morning. I saw client after client that have come to me from out of state. And now I'm doing a podcast with one of the literally most respected trainers on the planet. And I'm like who the fuck am I to complain? I can't complain. I've accomplished everything I've ever wanted to accomplish. So now I need to get a new puppy. I need to train.

I need to be successful on the IGP field. And one day I need to meet you in the final. And I need to beat you. That's all I need to do to be fulfilled. That's what I need to do. Let's go. That's what's about. That's what's about. You know let me take it back a little bit where we were talking family and dynamics and stuff. You know sometimes you know one like for me one of the hard things about you know dealing like trying to fix dogs problems in a family household and so on. And sometimes you really start to recognize like I mean even the wife and the husband they just don't want to be together. They're like actively trying to get away and it's there is always confrontations and fights and it's just tension all the time. And then you have that dog that it's in the middle of it. Like you know like I mean you know I back in Bulgaria grew up just on the streets with stray dogs. And I always give this like if that dog had a choice they will be out of that house. But they are stuck in there because of the humans. Like in a like the street dogs the moment there is station the moment there is a little scruffle they start to evaluate the situation. It's like okay maybe maybe it is time to split. And everything gets solved. And it's an advice that I always kind of have for my at least for my people that are studying under me. That not to be so stubborn. I'm the dog trainer and I'm going to fix this. When sometimes really there is a need for an exit. There is like rehoming most likely is the most reasonable thing. There is nothing wrong with anybody or nothing wrong with the dog. But they need to get out of there. And a lot of times can be dog to dog thing. There is just all these dynamics that quite often trainers just it's the ego of a trainer being seasoned or beginner trainer whatever it is. But it's like oh I'm going to I am stomping my foot and I'm going to fix this. Without realizing that sometimes there is unhealthy environment. And you cannot make it. You cannot change that. And the best option really is to somehow convince the owners that there is another option. And rehoming you know it shouldn't be like oh let's just get rid of the dog. That's not what I'm saying. But there is really times just like how some people get stuck with the wrong person for all of their life. Yeah. Listen I've been guilty of it. Right. When you're young and you want to make a name for yourself. Oh I could fix that. Right. You'll accept anything and you'll do it. Because you're stupid and your ego is huge. And you don't know what you don't know. Right. I had a client and I wrote about this a while back.

I had a client elderly couple. So elderly that the woman was best friends with Elvis Presley. That's how old she was. You understand. Great couple. But there was constant conflict. Difficult Rottweiler. The Rottweiler was the husband. He adored this dog. The wife hated the dog. Like hated it. It was a dangerous dog as far as she was concerned. And when she sent me these messages to tell me what this dog was doing. I was truly concerned. I told my wife. The first time I was going to see them. I said I have a bad feeling about this. I think this is where I could wind up maybe getting hurt. Right. Well to make a long story short. When I got there. This wasn't a bad dog at all. It was just too much dog for them. Right. I begged them Ivan. Give me the dog. Let me train her. They trusted me. Let me train her. I will give her. I will put her in the right home. I won't let you down. I'll keep her until I find the right home. Well there was no way he was giving this dog up. Then. The wife eventually said. You know what. He's a pain in the ass. The husband. He's not doing what you're asking. I'm the one coming to the sessions from now on. And she took over. And she did great. She did fantastic. I was very pleased with it. Then I got a message from her. Telling me that. The husband. Took the dog for a walk. The Rottweiler for a walk. He went after a dog. And attacked another dog. Pulled the owner down. The husband. He got hurt. And I was like. Man. This doesn't make sense to me. I was devastated. Because this dog was coming. To all kinds of classes. No issues around dogs. Doing beautiful. Like just beautiful job. This dog was doing. And I was so confused. I'm like. What am I missing? You know. So I said. Okay. I'll come. We'll continue to work. And we did. Everything was fine. Then I get a message. Please call me. I'm like. That's never good. Right. Right. I call the wife. She tells me. The husband took the dog for a walk. The dog went after another dog. Pulled him down. He fell down. He was an elderly. He completely fractured his skull. He's in a coma. Fractured skull. They don't know if he's going to live. They put the dog down on the spot when they arrived. I'm devastated. Like. I. Now. I'm taking the blame for this. And I'm going. I never saw this. I don't understand what I did wrong. I never saw this. I'm devastated. This guy may die. His dog's already been killed. Probably a month later. He comes out of the coma. He lives. She sends me a text. I need to talk to you. I said. Okay. I'll give you a call here in a minute. She says. No. I need you to come down here. This is in Nashville. This is an hour and a half away. I go down there. He came to. They told him what happened.

What they did with the dog. And he was inconsolable. He lost it. I had wrote. I had written an article about this. Up until this point. About why it's so important. To put these dogs in the right home. What had happened was. The husband. He was a recovering alcoholic. He was sober for 30 something years. Wow. He started drinking again. But the only time he could drink. Is when he was out of the house. With the wife. So he would take the dog for a walk. And kill a whole bottle of alcohol. I think it was vodka. He killed a whole bottle of alcohol. He passed out. Fell down. And hurt himself. The dog never did anything. And they killed this dog. Because of the story. He first told them. And so when he came to. And we told him what they did with the dog. He was devastated. He lost it. So my whole confusion. Why is the dog doing this? I've never seen any of this. I put the blame on myself. The dog never did anything. The dog was the excuse. For him feeding into his addiction. You don't see people talking about this. This is part of dog training. Right. And as a dog trainer. You don't have that skill. To deal with this kind of situation. And you have to be very keen. To try to learn. Yes. About this. I can tell you. I do have the skill to deal with it. Now. Right. Because I've been through everything. I've been through it all. You understand? And these are things that people take for granted. They don't understand what we deal with on a daily basis. You know. This was. I wrote an article on this too. I called it. My dumbest day of dog training. Why they called me. One of the reasons. They called me about this. Rauweiler. Is. They couldn't watch TV. Without this dog attacking the TV. He would lose his mind. And attack the TV. So when I first met them. And met this dog. I was like. This dog is a great dog. And he wouldn't do that behavior. In front of me. Even though he never met me. He was. A complete angel. So. The owner says this to me. He says. I have an idea. He said. How about. Next week. When you come. I leave the door unlocked. You'll hear him barking. And you sneak up. And catch him. And me. Being the very intelligent human being. I am. I said. Okay. I met this Rauweiler one time. Right. Now picture this. Ivan. This is a four-story condo. In Nashville. Tennessee. These people are old. But this guy's mom was still alive. She's over a hundred years old. And she lives in the basement. Never met her. I pull up. And I'm going. What the fuck am I doing right now? Why do I agree to do this? I hear the dog. Roof. Roof. Roof. Going crazy. I go in. I go. Oh my God. And I open the door. Downstairs. And I sneak in. And as I sneak in. His mom. Who I've never met. 102 years old.

Or whatever she was. Peeks around the corner. From the basement. And looks at me. And I go. And she just. Goes back into. Behind the wall. And I start. Creeping up the stairs. And all of a sudden. Dude. I hear this dog. Stop barking. And I hear him. Running down the stairs. Because he. Senses on that. Right. Right. And this dog. Gets to me. And I go. Chance. His name was Chance. Chance. It's me. It's okay. It's okay buddy. And he stops. Just before. He nails me. But this is the dumb shit. I've done. But this is the dumb shit. That we deal with. Yes. On a daily basis. That no one talks about. Very true. Very true. You know what I mean. Those people had no business. Owning that dog. He was a spectacular dog. But he was in the wrong hands. If you're in your 60s. Your 70s. Your 80s. You don't get a working line. German Shepherd. Malinois. Malinois. Rottweiler. But I encounter this stuff. On a daily basis. So why do I promote. Tether Tug. So much. Because I have clients. That are in their 70s. And 80s. With working line. Shepherds. And Malinois. And Rottweilers. That can't play with their dog. Yeah. So we have to use something. To give them. Is it as effective? No. But can we at least provide. Some kind of. Stimulation. That this dog needs. In a productive way. And advance the obedience. Off it. Absolutely. Absolutely. But when people see you. Doing stuff with this. Again. They jump to assumptions. And they think they know. What you're doing. And why you're doing it. When they say. When they see you. In the bite suit. Or Jay in the bite suit. Or Dylan in the bite suit. Or myself in the bite suit. They assume. That we're antagonizing the dog. To get that dog to bite us. So we can hammer it. They have no fucking idea. What we're actually doing. Oh I know. I know. I know. I mean. The bite suit. And few things. That I kind of. You know. The bite suit. Has become a trendy now thing. And I'm cringing. I'm like. Okay. Yes. Okay. Jesus Christ. Yes. Because people see this much. Of what. Yeah. Dylan is doing. Or Jay is doing. Or I am doing. And they think they know. What they're doing. They don't understand. The full concept of it. Yeah. Right. And so. Going back to. I get. I get why you. You are the way you are. With somebody. You are. I totally understand it. And me and Jay. Talk about this often. Right. And. And you know. Going back to Jay. No. Hold on. We'll get to Jay. I have a whole Jay story. Hold on. Yeah. Keep that one. Let's table this one. Yeah. You know what. I want to. I kind of want to. Get a. Better feeling of. Like. The trio. That you guys. You've been doing this now. For a while. And it's kind of. Yeah. You're. A good combo. And everybody's bringing things in. And I. I really want to kind of talk about this.

The first thing that I want to. That I'm curious. Because. I mean. You know. Lately. I've been very. Much into the. SSRIs. And. You know. All the. The animal. Behaviorist approach. And. Yeah. How. Often. Do you guys. In. When you do those. Workshops. How often. Do you get dogs. That are on. On any. SSRIs. At those seminars. Not too often. Okay. That's good. Yeah. Not too often. I get. I was getting them. Quite often. Personally. Not as much. As I used to. Because. I think. People know. How I feel. About them. Listen. I had. One client. With four. Boston. Terriers. One of them. Was on. The meds. And I said. I need you. To get the dog. Off the meds. Before I can see you. Yeah. And they said. No. I can't. I said. No. You don't understand. I have to see the real dog. So they complied. And they did. It the proper way. And when I got there. I spent some time with them. And I was like. You're not even medicating. The right dog. There's nothing wrong. With this dog. Like. That dog. Right there. Is the problem. But the average dog owner. Only sees. What they believe. Like. Literally. The dog. They were medicating. Ivan. Was not a problem. Yeah. Yeah. It was one of the other dogs. That was creating. All the problems. I think. I mean. I'm laughing. But it's. This is not for laughs. No. It's insane. And it wasn't even an issue. Right. But I think. As far as. What we do. The three of us. And it works so well. Because of the way we do it. It's become like this thing. Man. I don't think. We've ever seen a dog. On the meds. That at least. At least. We're told about. When they come to us. You know. And listen. You know how this is. I think you do it. In a smart way. Where you interview. The working spots. And you select them. When you don't do that. Because the dogs. Tend to create seminar. If you're going to have. A great seminar. You have to have. Great subjects. To work with. And the pet dog world. Sometimes you get people. Jumping on these working spots. That should not. Be doing that. There's nothing there. To work with. Right. There's no reason. Why. Or maybe. Or maybe there is something. To work with. But it's not a seminar thing. Right. Yes. 100. That's also very common. 100%. Happens all the time. That's my biggest fear. So of course. The best seminars. Are done. When you have. The dogs. With the most. Bass. You know. Variety. Oh. Yes. The best variety. Of problems. Those are the best seminars. If you get a seminar. Where all the dogs. Are just a bunch of couch potatoes. That's a nightmare. Then we have to focus. 100% on the human. End of the leash. Let's work with the human. Let's see how much they know. How much they do. So you just. You just never know. So. For people. Like yourself. Or if there's a few others. That really. Like.

Really scrutinize. Who. Are taking the working spots. I think that's a smart thing to do. Because it's. It's a lot safer. At least you know. That you have some things. To work with. And work on. It allows you to. Yeah. To work with. And also present. And kind of. Absolutely. Keep some context. To everything. Absolutely. For sure. Yep. That's strange. With the SSRI. I mean. Not that it's strange. But. Like I. I. I don't know. Maybe I'm. Almost. Too preoccupied. With it. And I'm very. Just. Just paying. Attention. Too much to it. But. It. They're just. So overused. Oh. God. Like I have. Every. Every trainer. That I talk to. There's been. You know. Dogs. That are on. That don't. Don't. Just don't. Doesn't make any sense. To be. You know. Like really. Doesn't make no sense. To be. Just. I mean. I mean. Just sometimes. Just as simple. As not allowing. The dog. To have any. Outlet. For energy. And you. Just. Prescribe. Freaking. Prozac. It's just so wrong. Yeah. I. You know. The story. With my Yorkie. I don't think. I've ever. Shared that story. Maybe I have. I don't know. But he was. When. When. So. They were brother. And a sister. They were six months. Old. Yorkshire Terriers. Like. Six months old. Right. The. The boy. Samson. The one that I end up having. He was kind of. Not really beating up. On the female. But. He was the boy. And he was more rowdy. He was a little more rough housing. He was six months old. And he was on. Flox. A teen man. Jeez. And. They come for training. And. I didn't know. As much as I know. Of course. Today. So. I'm keeping him on it. And I'm like. Man. This dog. Like. I don't see nothing wrong. With a puppy. And I didn't even know. How to. Taper it off. Gradually. And every. I'm like. Just. Okay. We just need to stop this. So. I just did. Cold turkey. And. And. It worked out. Thank God. But it's very risky. For anybody. That's listening. Do not. Just. Do cold turkey. When SSRIs. Because there is some. Serious side effects. That can happen. But. Yeah. The. The. The. SSRIs. Are. To me. A very big problem. And. Simply because. As you. Are focusing. On. Making the dog. Open up. And being playful. And. And interacting. The SSRIs. Do exactly. The opposite. They flatten you out. There's like. Okay. Your grandma died. But your uncle. Has a birthday. And you're like. Okay. Okay. It's just. You have no. The. The emotions. That you should have. They are not there. Yeah. How can you work. With a dog. That has a problem. To. To get him. To know. What is right. What is wrong. And what you like. And what you don't like. And so on. When. When you're in this flat line. And. It. Oh. It really bugs me. But. Let's go back to the. The trio. Because you guys are doing really good. How. How. How is. Typically. What do you guys do? Do you. Divide groups. And do you rotate.

Or. Tell me. Tell me. I'm genuinely curious. So. Everyone's in. One room together. Right. So we only do these at. Big hotels. With big conference rooms. Which is. It's a very nice setup. Because everyone's staying. At the same hotel. You. That's important. You're training. In the hotel. And they hang out after. Oh man. It's a whole different level. It's very important. Oh. It's massively different. Right. And I have to give Joel. All the credit for this. Because he's the one. Who put this together. And how he wound up. With me. And Jay. I'm not sure. Tell me. It works. Everybody wants to know. How. How did you got. How do you guys. What happened. That all of a sudden. It's like. Well let's do this together. Yeah. So. So this is all Joel. Right. He's been training. Dogs in Hollywood. For movies and commercials. For 40 years. Many. Many years. And. In. About. Six years ago. He was speaking. At the IACP conference. I was a speaker. At the conference. And Jay was a speaker. At the conference. I had never met Jay. Personally. But I had talked to him. Online. I loved what he was doing. And we were talking online. Was that before you took my course. Or after. Way before. Yeah. Before. Okay. And so. Because me and Jay. We. I mean. We have a long history of. Yes. Yeah. You know that. Right. Yeah. A hundred percent. Like Jay. Put you on a pedestal. And he gives you. I respect him. So much credit. So. Joel approached me. And said. Hey. I'm Joel Silverman. I love what you're doing. I'm watching your stuff. Man. I just. I said. Well shit. Joel. I said. You're. I've watched your stuff forever. You're the only guy on TV. You know. So. Yeah. I know who you are. And I thought it was so cool. That he even knew who I was. And we talked. And we kind of hit it off. And he said. Man. I'd love to do something with you someday. I'm saying. I'm down. So. He said. Hey. You want to do a seminar together? I said. Sure. And we did one seminar together. Just two of you or Jay? Just the two of us. And after the first seminar. He said. Hey. What do you think about this Jay Jack guy? And bringing him on to do it. I said. A hundred percent. I love what Jay's doing. So keep paying attention. Yeah. I love what he's. I love what Jay's doing. A hundred percent. And that's how it started. Now. The funny thing is. Joel had never really watched Jay up close. or know too much about him. So the first seminar we did. It was in St. Louis, Missouri. As you know. Jay is very colorful. Oh. Let's fucking get the dog out. Oh my God. And when Jay started doing his thing. I looked at Joel. And he was like. What the fuck did I get myself into? He was dying. You know. But as you know Ivan. The funny thing is. If I said and did the same thing Jay does.

I'd be crucified. It's just acceptable coming from Jay. That's his way. He's brilliant. It comes very organic. Yes. That's what it is. It doesn't offend anyone. Right. So we did that first seminar together. And it just clicked. It just clicked. So the way we do it is. We all. We take turns. Jay will usually start off talking. And he'll go into his layered stress model. And his windows. And then I follow up on him. Because a lot of what I do. Really builds off of what he talked about. What I tell people. Is the same thing Jay tells people. Look. When it comes to his windows stuff. He didn't invent anything. It's nothing new. He packaged it in a way. That most people. Have a better understanding of it. And can utilize it. And that's 100% effective. Like. I've watched people. Completely change. Because of how much that has impacted him. So I take that. And I go off of what he already talked about. And then I do my thing. And then Joel is completely different. He's training for movies and commercials. So we're all very aware to let people know. If you're working with Joel. And he's telling you this. And this. And that. Don't get confused. Because Jay and Larry said this. And this. And that. He's training for something very different. So you're learning both ends. Whatever pertains to you. That's what you should gravitate toward. Right. And. It has turned into this thing. That. Like. It's been going on six years now. Yeah. Where people just flock to it. Yeah. And I remember the first seminar we did. You know. I went to Jay and Joel. At the end of the day. And I said. Look guys. This is the way I do things. You don't have to do this. So don't feel obligated. Please. I said. But when I get done with dinner. I come back. And I usually train late into the night. Because. People sacrifice a lot to be here. They're paying money. They're leaving their family. You know. They're doing a lot. And I like to try to give the extra. And so you don't have to come back and train at night. But I do. And they were both like. What the fuck man. That's a lot. You know. But they did it. Because I was doing it. And then I remember 30 minutes into that nighttime training. Which we changed. Now it's not. I'm up. Dealing with people. Joel's up. Now it's. We're all in our own area. And it's loose. There's music playing. People have their drinks. It's a fun time. I like it. So about 30 minutes into it. Joel comes up to me. And he goes. This is the best thing ever. This is amazing. I said. Yeah. I know. I told you I would. And that's how we do things now. So. We really. So but like when you guys divide. Do you also switch dogs? Or how? No. No. So in the daytime. It's formal. Right. Okay. Jay may start off.

Go for an hour. Hour and a half. Some presentation. I'll follow him. Hour and a half. Like who's my working spot. Who's Jay's working spot. Who's Joel's working spot. And we do that through the whole day. If we end at 5 p.m. And we break for dinner. We come back 7, 7 30. Now. Everyone. I'm in my own corner. Jay's in his own corner. Joel's in his own corner. You go wherever you want. It's a free for all. We're having a good time. That's when I need to show up. I mean. Oh. That's where the best training happens. Of course. Because now people are drinking. Open. They're a little loosened up. We're having a good time. And we're very informal. And it's become like this whole thing where people are like, no, you can't stop doing this. I'm kind of the negative guy where I keep telling Joel and Jay like, look guys. Because I think it's probably coming to an end. We've seen thousands and thousands of people. We can't do this forever. But every time we say, this will probably be the last time here. People are like, no, you can't do that. Like, this is like, we love this, you know. So do you have a, sorry. Do you have some kind of progression? Like, for example, I don't do that many workshops or seminars anymore. But I, when I used to do a lot of them and a lot meaning like at least two a month somewhere in the world. Right. Yeah. And it was always, it was kind of like the Groundhog, Groundhog, the dog movie. Like I always had to just do that same thing. Yeah. And I always just loved it when I would give the next level to the same people. Do you guys get to have a crowd that comes again or it's pretty much fresh? Oh, yeah. We have people that have come five, six years in a row. Okay. Because that's really where it gets interesting, right? Yeah. Otherwise, you're just repeating this. It's kind of like a chess game that you move two pawns and you never get to open the game. So we have people that come every year to that location, right? And I think my favorite thing about all of that, Ivan, is whether it's my solo seminars or it's the ones we do with the three of us. I've watched so many people develop really tight friendships and bonds with the other people that attended. And they become lifelong friends and they continue to work. I just saw someone just posted a video and sent it to me. I did a seminar in England in September and there were some difficult dogs there. There were some real problem dogs there, you know, and it was a great group of people. And I got a video sent to me the other day from a big part of that seminar, several people that attended that seminar in England.

And they showed a day they all got together to work on what they learned. And all the dogs were together and doing beautifully. That ripped my heart right out of my chest. Yes, for sure. That's everything. For sure. That's everything to me. Like, it's an absolutely beautiful thing. I was so happy seeing that, you know. But the lifelong friendships. You know why? Because sometimes this, and again, keep your thought. Again, I'm sorry that I interrupt because if I don't interrupt, I will just forget my thoughts. But that's what gets very interesting when there is continuation. Because at some point, when there is continuation, you reach a place where you're like, now you need to really think where you want to take it because you're in uncharted territory as well. Yes. And that's super beautiful, you know. Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. Listen, we were doing a seminar in Irvine, California, Orange County, California, right? And there was a dog there. It was a great Pyrenees, big flock guardian dog that could not be around other dogs. He was very, very difficult. We worked with it. I think they had a working spot with me. We dealt with it during the day. We came back from dinner. We worked late into the night. I remember at 1 a.m., I said, guys, I got to go to sleep. I can't. I'm done. I can't go any longer. It was 1 a.m. I went to bed. When I came back the next morning at 8 a.m., one of the young trainers come up to me. He goes, hey, check this out. And he showed me a video of that great Pyrenees running around with a bunch of other dogs playing and having a great time. And I stopped and I said, when did this happen? I was here until 1 o'clock in the morning. And he goes, that was about 3 a.m. I said, holy shit, man. You guys are rock stars. But what happened was people were so relaxed and comfortable and having their drinks. They said, fuck it. Let's have a great time, you know. And the dogs were like, yeah, let's have a great time. And they made incredible things happen when we weren't even there. That's when I say, holy shit. Like some of these people, not everyone, but some of these people will take what we're giving them and really make amazing things happen. That's an incredible thing to me. Like an absolutely, and I pinch myself sometimes because I'm thinking, how did I wind up here? Why do people trust me this way? You know, I don't think Jay gets enough credit. I think he's starting to. But Jay is someone that I would trust to care for my children. Okay? He doesn't look like the person you would trust to care for your children. I would go with Jay to the favelas in Rio. 100%.

He's an amazing human being, but I don't think he gets enough credit as a dog trainer. He's starting to. And I think our thing has made more people aware of what he's capable of. And in my opinion, this is just my opinion, Ivan. He is the best representative you have of who you are and how you train out there. I believe it. No, I believe that. Without a doubt, I believe that. He's a amazing human being. Dude, we have spent hours after hours talking. And the time that we were talking was a very interesting time for me. Because it was a, I was developing like everything. I was just basically putting the puzzle together at the time. And it was very, you know, so it was very cool. And then eventually somehow we, you know, different paths and whatever. Until this is where the funny story comes that I've been meaning to tell you that I told you that. Hold on to talk about Jay. So, you know, that workshop, that, the California thing. Yeah. And you know how I told you whenever something is about to come out of production and I'm like, no, this is not good enough. We need to do it better. Well, it goes out. And I don't know what it goes out. Because if I know exactly, I will be, it's just my brain is like, I know I can do better. And I have to let go. Anyway, so there is a, somehow, somewhere in there, there is somebody that was, I don't want to put the story the wrong way. But they mentioned Jay's window theory. And we've been so far kind of separated. We haven't talked for a while with Jay. And I was, I guess, I don't know what I said about it. But I clearly must have said something that I just don't know. Like, I have no idea what that is. And, you know, if I don't know, I cannot discuss it. And so we need to move on. Jay gets the video. He messages me. He's like, dude, I don't know what they told you about it. But it really, I believe it really fits with everything. I mean, he's just like there. And I'm like, dude, okay, let's talk about it. I mean, of course, I need to hear. And then we go back and forth on messages. And, of course, we never get to sit down and talk. Sure. Which is very unfortunate because we really, like, we used to talk for, I mean, for hours at a time, you know. And he's like, let me, I just need to tell you. And I need to, like, I respect you. I need to hear your opinion of what I'm talking. And, you know. And I'm like, I would love to. You know, of course I would. Never happened. ISCP comes. He's presenting the windows. And I'm like, I need to make this. I gotta go. And with my brain, the way my brain works, I'm like, oh, fuck. It's not gonna happen. I message him. I'm, Jay, I'm busy.

And I'm gonna be there at about 11 o'clock is when my plane arrives. And your last lecture starts at 10. I don't think I'm gonna make it. And I'm really bummed out. And he's really bummed out. I arrived at the ISCP. And I just kind of, I mean, it's close to 12 o'clock. And I'm like, where is Jay's lecture? And they're like, calm down. He's tomorrow. I'm like, no, he's not tomorrow. He's right now. Like, like, like, it's in some hall here. It's like, no, nothing's starting today. And I'm like, what the fuck? Nothing's starting today. I went a day earlier. Somehow. And, and of course, I got to watch him. He was, he's like, you know, you're making me so nervous right now. Because I, on top of everything, I don't like doing this. And now, if he was fighting, I'll go in and I'll warm up. But for dog stuff, it's different. You just have to start. Sure. And, yeah. I mean, it was really cool. And, and it really, I mean, I highly recommend it for everybody. And I told Jay that. Well, let me, let me say this. I'm going to be super honest with you here. This, I've never said this to anyone. Like, literally, I've never talked about this. You're on a podcast. Yeah. What I did for a long time, for a career, I've had meetings with world leaders, attorney generals, senators, congressmen. I've done more than most people ever imagined someone like me does. I don't talk. People want to think I'm a meathead. And I have no issues with that. Do think with you want. I've spent the past five, six years traveling with Jay and doing things. He's an absolutely amazing human being. Mm-hmm. And he's brilliant. He's one of the best speakers and teachers I've ever been around in my life. Mm-hmm. And his integrity is inshakable. He does the right thing no matter what. And when it comes to the animals, you're not going to change his opinion. You can't change him no matter who you are. Unless there is something that he sees that he should change. That's for sure he's open to it. Yes, 100%. So when it comes to something like his windows, I'm only speaking from what I've seen from the general public. Jay will be the first one to tell you that he didn't invent or create anything. This isn't new. But his intentions with that, the same intentions I had with the e-collar stuff, was to appeal to the masses and make it simple for them to understand and reap the benefits of. But then he always puts you as the source of what created a lot of the things that he believes in things. I know. I know. He's very generous with giving credit, right? That's his martial arts stuff, man. When you grow up in this, this is the shitty thing with dog training.

And again, sorry to interrupt you. No, you're good. But sometimes, you know, especially the, I don't know, I wouldn't say the young kids or whatever, but people tend to like, okay, I got something and now I'm going to present it as my shit. It's like, okay, but everybody knows that it's not. And in martial arts, there is this tradition of some respect and some actually being proud that you're coming out from a certain line of where you're coming from. It's actually important, you know? And I think we're missing this in the dog world. Anyway, go on. You know, Evan, one of the best things about this thing that's happened with me, Jay and Joel, you asked about that. I think it's exposed more people to Jay. Right. Right. When we started this, I think a lot of people focused on me, knew who I was. And I was very quick to tell them, pay attention to this guy, but it didn't take long before people realized, whoa, this dude's amazing. Right. He's absolutely amazing. But there was one moment that really, really led me to understand who he truly was. We were doing a seminar in St. Louis and my daughter traveled with me to come to the seminar and hang out with us, which I loved. I've always told my kids, like, I just, I wanted them to get into jujitsu from an early age so that I have a boxing background, not jujitsu. But I wanted them because I know the value of jujitsu. Yeah. So I remember we're sitting at dinner and I said to Jay, Jay, tell Sophia, my daughter, you know, she was probably 15 at the time. I said, explain to her the value of jujitsu. And he turned around and he started talking to her. And the way I watched him speak to her and interact with her, I was floored. Like, that's not what I expected. It was like a whole different level from what I expected. It's a certain level of philosophy of life. I was like, okay, that's, I didn't expect all that, but I'm blown away at this moment. So he's, I'm speaking unbiased here. He's an absolutely amazing human being, a brilliant teacher and speaker. Brilliant. One of the best I've ever seen. You know why he's so brilliant too is because, well, he, even when he stresses, he can talk for two minutes being stressed out, but then, but then he opens up. And when he opens up, it's all very, very genuine. And he is one of those masters of storytelling. Ivan, he's at a different level of intelligence. And if you don't have a storytelling, you, you cannot captivate. And it's just, he makes it very, very beautiful. What I tell people to try to make it more, more relatable. I say, listen, I know this guy doesn't look like the smartest guy on the block.

He looks like baby Shrek. Give him five minutes. Brilliant. Like different level, like absolutely different level. And, and, uh, I love the guy to death. I adore him, but I would trust him giving my children to him. I would trust him to do the right thing by them. That's how, that's what I think of him. And he always puts you on a pedestal and gives you credit for where he's at in dog training. There's no better representative of you than J-Jack. Believe me when I tell you. I don't mind. I've seen it all. I've seen it all. He is your ultimate endorsement right there. You know, and I'm very proud to call him a friend. And I love the time that I get to spend with him. I truly am. Like he never ceases to amaze me. You know, you talk about the, you know, we, we have this thing where we deal with the purely positive community. You can't take anyone from that side of the fence that is softer on dogs than Jay. But at the same time being effective, like no bullshit. This is a guy that doesn't use prong collars, doesn't use e-collars. You know, he's not a purely positive trainer per se, but this guy really, really, really thinks about everything he does in the deepest level and loves these animals. And that's what I love about him. I absolutely adore him. I really do. He's a phenomenal human being. That's what dog training is supposed to look like. And gratefully, thankfully, now more and more people are starting to catch on to that. That's a great thing. You know, it's an absolutely beautiful thing. That's the future of dog training right there. You know, when you talk about windows, is it anything complicated or new? No, but he's able to package it for the everyday dog owner to consume and be effective with. Well, I tell you this. After his presentation at the ICP, I told them that I am going to have him present this to my class for sure. Nice. For sure. You won't be disappointed. No, how can I be? I mean, I listen to it. And that's the thing. Like, you know, when I'm saying, when I went to the ICP, I listen to everybody. I listen to things that I'm like, okay, this is really. But I'm there. I'm listening. Sure. I'm there. I've paid the money. Why would I not listen? And this is one of the things that people are like, you always try to YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. It's all good. There is a lot there. But there is different level of being in person and listening and interacting and asking questions. And then as we talked about hanging out after hours with the people. Like, I mean, I will tell you one with the, well, I don't know. I mean, almost with everybody.

I mean, it's just, I just cannot not encourage people to try to open up and go and explore. Even the things that you think that they're just not, there is nothing to learn. You get different perspectives. There is a lot to learn when you're getting different perspectives and different point of view. Just that on its own. It makes you, you understand what the landscape of dog training is. Sure. Positive, balance, whatever, you know. I think we both needed this conversation, man. Yeah, it's really valuable, you know. And I'm someone that always points people in other directions, right? For certain people. Hey, look at this person. Look at that. I never say, hey, look at me. Never. That's not in my, it's just not in my DNA. I don't do that. Which there is nothing wrong about, hey, I, I, this is what I, you know, like you, you have to do that too. I think it's important that you do that too. But here's the thing, Ivan. Everyone thinks they are better than what they really are in some way or sense. For the most part. Many people. Actually, the people that maybe aren't as good as they think they are. Right. Right. The people that I tend to focus on or send people to aren't the people who say, hey, I'm amazing. I'm doing great work. Look at my social media. And I think that's, that's really, really important. You know, I think it's massively important. And the one thing that this whole crazy dog industry has given me the benefit of. I know a lot of people on both sides of the fence. Sport dog world. Pet dog side. You know, I have a lot of friends out there. But when it comes down to it, the only thing that matters to me and what I try to push people to is what are you doing with the animal? All that matters. I don't care about anything else. You know, anything else. I think it's comical that to this day, we talked about it in the beginning, that the podcast we did about e-collars between me and you is still so talked about. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. It's disturbing that it is. Yeah. Right? But if one person could really think about what they're doing there. Listen, I don't care if you completely disagree with me as long as your dog is happy and doing well. Yeah. I don't care if you 100% with you on that stuff and is happy and doing well. That's all I care. And then I'm happy for it. But I tend to really focus on what could the worst of the worst, not worst of the worst, I shouldn't say that, but where are the massive numbers that we deal with when it comes to dogs? It's the everyday household. No, I get it. I absolutely get it, man. You know? 100%.

And so I can't ask someone, I can't ask Jane Doe down the road that has a dog that's given her problems to train a dog the same way I do. Because in general, look, I'm going to train a dog the same way in general, in concept, the way you do. I want the same things. But sometimes for the everyday pet owner, they don't have that desire or capability. Yep. How could we be successful with that dog? That's all I care about. Yeah. And if I have to say, okay, I was wrong, follow this person, do what he said to get what you need. I'm totally okay with that. I really am. It has nothing to do with me. I want your dog to be happy. I want you to be happy because the fact that we have people putting dogs in shelters because you can't handle them, to me, is unacceptable. It's sickening. There's too much good information out there to help you. It shouldn't be. You understand? It shouldn't be. And so I don't need you to agree with me. I just need you to do better. Whoever you trust, do better. Right? But the people that I say, hey, follow Jay's stuff, follow Michael's stuff, follow Ivan's stuff, I'll tell all the people where I'm comfortable with you learning from because you're not going to go wrong. But that's just the way I do things. The problem is when you're committed to one way or one mentor, sometimes it could be a burden because it's that way or the highway. And that's not going to work for everyone or every dog. And if you have a very strong dog, a German Shepherd or a Malinois who wants to do cool things, it's not the same as getting the golden doodle who's scared to step outside. You have to have options. You have to know how to handle the different scenarios. And I've committed myself to doing the best I can. I'm not perfect. I still make mistakes. Right? But I will never be that individual that says, I know everything. Trust me. I'll say, hey, I learned this from this person. And I think it's very, very valuable. Let me teach you and do the best you can with it. But that's, again, that's just me. And I think that gives me advantage over most pet dog trainers. Yes. Because I am both sides of the fence. 100%. Like, I mean, I know how you sometimes you would go off on Facebook and you kind of try to encourage people to. It's like you just pay the $10 or whatever. Just expand your knowledge, you know. Like, to me, you're a prime example of being hungry and exploring and growing. And I'm the same. I mean, people don't understand this. But I'm not here in the dog industry just stomping my foot and saying, this is it. That's definitely not me.

I mean, think of when you were, let's say, 10 years ago and where you are today. Why are you here today? Because you made a sincere effort to expand your knowledge. Same here. It's not like I'm not some god figure or something. Nobody should be. I mean, the moment you think that way, you're fucked. Right? Yeah, absolutely. You're fucked. Absolutely. You know, it's funny, Ivan. And I go back to the IGP stuff, right? When I went down to work with Dante in December with Fabian stuff, Dante was doing really good at tracking. Not because of me, because it came natural to him. He's a very good tracker. It's a terrible tracker. And then I saw him doing worse. I didn't blame the dog. I knew it was me. I knew it was something that I was doing. And I wanted to know, what am I doing to make this more difficult for him? And then I went down to Florida and I spent a week with Fabian. And in 30 minutes of listening to him talk, I'm sitting there and I'm listening to everything he said. I knew everything I did wrong to create those problems. I knew instantly. It's like, boom, it went off. It was all worth the trip. It was worth the money of the seminar. It was worth the 14-hour drive. It was worth everything. I was like, fuck, I know what I did. And that's when you get invigorated and excited and motivated. It's like a booster shot, you know? Yeah, but here's the thing, Ivan. It doesn't have to only be about tracking. Right. It's supposed to be about the overall picture of how the dog sees things. Whether you're a pet dog trainer or a sport dog trainer. You understand what I'm saying? And the truth is, this is the ugly truth that people don't want to admit. If I would have went to a pet dog trainer, which I don't know who I would go to that I'd be confident with where I'm going to learn. And I'm not saying I can't learn from a pet dog trainer. I'm not saying that at all. I know that I wouldn't have obtained the same value of what I was looking for to make my overall understanding of dogs and learning better. So it was super, super valuable to me. You know, I knew everything I did. Why is Dante doing this? Oh, my God. As soon as he said, I knew what I did wrong. I knew what I did wrong. So when I go work with Mary Jane down the road, whose dog's trying to attack dogs, is it the same thing as track? No. But I understand where I went wrong. And the conversation is the same. 100%. And that's what people aren't understanding. You know, so for me, when people look at me, they see a big, loud meathead who, listen, there's a guy who comes after me. He comes after you. He comes after the biggest names in the industry, right?

I refuse to give him any satisfaction by acknowledging him. He wants it so bad. That's what he's looking for. But this is great. One day, he referred to me as Tony Soprano meets Duck Dynasty. And he meant that as an insult. And I laughed my ass off because that's exactly who I am. That's not an insult. I am Tony Soprano, the Italian dude from New Jersey with that mentality, meets Duck Dynasty, that mentality. And it's perfect. That's not an insult to me. That's who I am. You know what I mean? But he continuously comes after me and he comes after you. He has nothing else. There is nothing left for him to do. He's very irrelevant to deliver any coherent dog training. Something new. Something innovative. Something innovative. There is no way. I just want to say to a person like that. Hey, dude. Show me your dog doing cool things that we haven't seen. Right. Right? That's all you have to do to get attention of anyone. Right? Why is Dylan Jones getting attention? I was going to say, yes. Why is he the shiny new toy? Because he's actually showing the bad dogs and he's showing the work he's doing. And there is no hiding. Nothing. Nothing. He's not hiding anything. Yeah. Now, people are turned off because of his vernacular or the things he's saying or the way he handles the conflict with people. Right? Right. But it's frustrating and that's his way to handle it. That's fine. He's a young guy. He's going to learn as he goes what makes him comfortable. But you can't deny that he's doing the work. Right. He's showing it. Man, you know we did this shelter workshop a few, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago. He did so good. Yeah. And he did exactly what you guys were talking. I didn't want to interrupt. But, you know, the after hours thing. I mean, he was done. And he was not done. There was 12 o'clock, 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock. And there is Dylan still talking dogs. Like, it's a, you know. Yeah. Let me tell you something, Ivan, about that dude. You can love him or hate him. I know people love him and hate him. Right. The people on the balance side love him. The people on the force free side hate him. Not all people on balance side love him either. No, you're right. Because of the way he, his honesty and the way he says things. And some of the balance trainers. Man, that's a hard one to say. Oh. And now I'm stuck and I have to say. There is a whole big part of balance trainers that are just kind of stuck in one place. And they don't want to look forward. Well, listen. Here's one of the things that I dealt with. When it came to, like, as you know, I'm very loyal to what Bart has done to me. I'm a very loyal human being.

And Bart means the world to me. The things that I've taken for him has helped me very much. Things I've taken from you has helped me very much. I'm a very loyal person. When someone like Dylan starts putting his stuff out there and people come at him. He's a young guy. At this point, he don't give a fuck. He's going to be honest. He's going to say how he feels. That's going to rub a lot of people the wrong way. It doesn't change the fact that he's shown what he does. You understand? Then he's showing, he's backing up what he's saying. And his message is super simple. It's like if you're arguing with me, show me. That's right. It's really easy. But I could tell you something about him that most people don't know. When he was coming to our seminars, I'd watch him sit in the back with a notebook, taking notes constantly. He was really paying attention and trying to learn. Yes. When it came to thinking about going to your school, I know I was very quick to say, do it. Yeah, I know that. He talked to Jay and Jay said, find the money and do it. It was that simple, right? We're going to be honest with him. You're not going to regret it. Find the money. Ten grand. That sounds like a lot of money to people, right? When I paid ten grand to take your course, yeah, it's a lot of money. But guess what? That's two boarding trains. You're going to get it back very, very quickly. But these are things we don't talk about and we're not honest about. People sometimes don't want honesty. They want you to make them feel better about themselves. Dylan is a young guy. He doesn't know how to navigate the conflict yet. So he just says what's on his mind. Right? And for some people, that's like, fuck yes. For some people, it's like, ooh, that was the wrong thing to say. Right. I understand where he's coming from. You know? I don't butt in even though there's been times where people say, Eddie. I mean, where it's coming from, again, it's very simple. It's like it's really coming out of frustration. Because if you say you can help a dog, then help the fucking dog. Show it. Right? It's so simple. Show it. Right? Why are you fighting with this young guy who's doing really good work? Just show. Combat what you're saying to him. But you won't see it because it's non-existent. Right. You understand? It's not there. You can't do it. You're not doing it. It's that simple. All of you guys on the force-free side had this imagination that people like Dylan or Ivan or myself or Jay were doing things just to crucify these dogs. To force them into submission, which is non-existent. It doesn't exist. And you hate the fact that that's the fucking truth.

But you know it. And that there are results at the end. It's an easy thing. The dogs can't lie. Right. Just watch the dogs. What do you see? They can't lie to you. Be honest with yourself. And that's why, for me, again, Ivan, going back to our podcast with the e-collars. I never was upset about that. I thought it was great because it makes people think and talk about it. Right? Forget about people. You and I had something to go back to and kind of work our brains around it. That's on its own. It's a good thing. Look at his dogs. Look at my dogs. Yeah. Everyone's doing great. Yeah. Pick and choose what you want. Yeah. But if you can't do that stuff, then there's something wrong. Then we have to find out why. Where are you failing? And I think this whole struggle that we go through in the dog training world is unnecessary. Because it's a very easy fix. Hey, what do the dogs look like? What can you do with them? Hey, I can take my dogs out to the farm that I hunt. And there's deer running. There's rabbits running. My dogs are happy and running around with me. Yeah. No tools. Yeah. What can you do with no tools? Right? Show me. I'll show you. I have no problem showing you that stuff. And I've shown it for many, many years. But for some reason, people tend to ignore that part. I think that's the most important part that you could pay attention to. You did a video once of, it was an e-collar related video, where you let your dogs out in the morning. Yes. And they were all running around. Did you need the e-collars on a couple of those dogs? No. No. But they were there in case they made bad choices. Why is that even something to dispute or argue? I don't understand that. You understand, like... And forget even that video. But the one, you know, the one video that I made about what science says. And kind of at the end of the video, I had a bunch of dogs as I was talking. And I'm like, just point out the dogs that have electric collar. Forget. Just leave everything alone. And just tell me which is the one lifelong, universally suppressed shitting itself. Point that out. You can't. Yeah. But you see, I can. I can. I can tell you the exact video when you talk about that. Because that stuff's important to me. But most people can't. Because I'm a student. And I'm always paying attention to that stuff. Right? So if you put a podcast out with Mia or Yanni. Yeah. I'm watching it over and over and over again. Because not only is it motivating me to do stuff on the sport field. It's giving me ideas. And it's fucking making me go, oh my God. Yes. I love this. Right? Not everyone has that. Yeah, you're right. Not everyone has that.

I mean, speaking about Yanni and Mia. I can tell. You know how you were talking about the after hours thing? Hmm. I still remember the first time I went to Mia in Finland. And I did a seminar for them. I mean, a long time ago. And then. And it's fucking Finland. It's, I don't know. It's wintertime. I mean, it's dark. It's always wintertime. Right. So we do everything, whatever the seminar is over. Then we actually start to talk about our own dogs and our own training and the breedings and everything. Dude, it's 2 a.m. And it's minus, I don't know what. I mean, it's, it's, and I don't do cold weather. That's why I'm in Florida. And we're 2 a.m. Out training dogs and having the best time of our lives. That's it. That's what it's about. Yes. Yes. Not everyone has that. You understand? Not everyone has that. And I love that. I absolutely love that. When I, when I first sat down and listened to the podcast you did with Mia and Yanni, and I point out those two because I got the same feeling from both of them. I came home and very late into the night, I was training my dog. I was doing IGP stuff. I was so motivated. I was blown out of the water. I was like, this is what I need to do right now. If you don't have that, you shouldn't be training dogs. But you're, you're in the wrong line of work if you don't have that. And maybe you'll have it, but you're not giving it a try. You're not like, just, just crack the door open and look out there. Maybe you'll go in, you know? I don't get it. When I was asked to do the videos for Sits They Learned for the website, I said, no. I didn't want to. And they said, why? I said, because no one wants to hear me talk anymore. I've said everything I can say. I've done everything I can do. I have no, like, I don't want to be that person that just does things to do things. I was, I was very serious about that. And the person who was doing it said, well, I disagree with you. I think there's a need for it. And I think you'll do well. And I think, I think you'll make good money off of it. I think I could help you financially. And I was like, man, this is simple, basic shit. I don't think so. Yeah. But eventually they convinced me and I did it. Yes. And it went really, really well. Yeah. And then I remember someone asking the person who produced the whole thing. And they said, what do you think about what he just did, what you just did? And I remember him stopping and thinking, and I got this response from someone else. And they said, you know, he was so basic. It was genius. It's Einstein saying, like, if you cannot explain it to a four-year-old to understand that, then you're not a good teacher.

But that's me, Ivan. So anything I do, it's for the person in sixth grade that can understand it. Yeah. You know, I'm not a dumb person. I'm not illiterate. I'm not an idiot. But when it comes to the dog stuff, it's so important to me that people can retain it. And I've seen people work with the best of the best, people way superior than me, like way beyond my talent, right? And they get nothing out of it. Yeah. Because they can't retain it. It makes no sense to them. Yeah. It does not make sense to them. What good is it is if someone can't retain it. So that's always kind of been my thing. How can I help someone, the average person who gets the German Shepherd that they shouldn't have, that has bad genetics? How can I help them? It's that simple. And I don't sugarcoat anything. I don't bullshit anything. And I'm not perfect. I make mistakes. I'm wrong all the time. But compared to the people that are making millions and have massive followings, I'm doing okay. I'm doing okay. And I don't point them in my direction to learn from. I point them in the people that have taught me, that I've learned. Well, for whatever it's worth. And again, we don't need to praise each other. But man, I sincerely, it's cool watching you, your journey. And not just your personal knowledge and personal goals, but the contribution to everything, you know? I appreciate that. Yeah, for sure, man. I just try to share the knowledge that I've taken from others. No question. It's that simple. And I respect the people that I've learned from immensely. You know, the problem is, Ivan, if there's people out there that will try to emulate you. They'll try to emulate. There's people right now trying to speak East European accent, thinking that that's a thing. Listen, I've watched people do a seminar and literally that don't have a Belgium accent try to sound like Bart and use a Belgium accent the whole time. Yes. So there's certain people that have. I mean, nothing wrong with that, right? But that's not what it's about. But there is, right? And there's certain people. And listen, I talk about this frequently. This isn't something that's new to me. I tell people all the time, when you take people like yourself or Bart or certain other trainers, you have a very strong control over people. And the first seminars that I did, the first three seminars I ever did 10, 12 years ago were terrible. And part of the reason was the only seminars I had ever attended were from Bart. And I tried to emulate him. And I can't. I'm not him. I'll never be him. And once I realized I'm not him, I can't duplicate him. He's a different level than me. I'll never be him.

I'll never be you. Right? I have to be the best version of myself and be honest with myself. That's when things are getting better. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I've watched people do seminars with a Belgian accent that aren't from Belgium because Bart's had such a powerful influence over them. And I'm like, whoa, dude, wait, we got to talk here. Right? I watch people say things exactly the way you say things. Or all of a sudden, they're changing their vocabulary to match what you say. That's not healthy. I understand why they do it, but it's not healthy. It's not who they are. And so for me, I've tried to take the information from the people that I put on a pedestal. But I've tried to make it my own. And I'm going to fail. I'm going to make mistakes. And I'm okay with that. But I can't fake it and try to be you. I can't try to fake it and try to be part. I can't try to fake it and be Michael Ellis. You understand what I'm saying? Of course I do. But that's actually, again, that's what's about. Like, you know how I was talking about the musicians and the cover songs and whatever. Eventually, you need to, you cannot, like, there is a danger. You cannot pretend that you're somebody when you, you know deep inside that you don't know. But once you're at a place that you can say, you know what? I can mix things up. And I can bring something to the table. But that comes with time and knowledge and that quest for, it doesn't, it cannot come any other way. Like, like, you just can't. I can give people specific examples. Like, very, I could be very specific where there were separate times when it comes to, let's just stick to people like you or Bart. I can give people examples. I can give them examples where I went, holy shit. But this is different level. Like, this just blew my mind. I need to soak that in so I could teach and make myself a better teacher. And I have plenty of examples I can use, right? But that's always been important for me for day one. Like, from day one, when I started learning from that side of the fence, it's been massively, massively important for me. So, I have five dogs. I have four males, one female. Five males are intact. My female is intact. When my female goes into heat, my males still play together. They don't fight. I'm doing something right. For sure. You understand? I know what I'm doing when it comes to raising really good dogs. There was one thing in your course that was very powerful to me. Like, very powerful to me. You had a female in heat. And you gave the male the option. Go to the female or play with me. She was in a standing heat, yeah. He chose to play with you.

That even surprised you. Yeah, this is wild. I didn't know. That was genuinely a test, you know? See, so those things matter to me. I don't discount them or throw them to the... I soak that in and I go, holy shit. That's how powerful that interaction through play is. Yeah. That fucking dog chose to play with you over going to the female in heat. You had an intact male. Like, I don't forget things like that. I just don't. It's very important to me. My job is to take that information in. How can I package that in a way that makes sense to the people that I work with? Right. That's my job. That's it. So when people have an issue with me or dislike me or say, I understand why they do. Don't get me wrong. But they're ignoring all the effort that I put into being better. They ignore it. And believe me when I tell you, I put in so much effort to being better into this stuff. Because there's no doubt in my mind when I first signed on to come to your course, you had a different opinion of me. There's no doubt in my mind. I know what your opinion was. But I was so happy that you made that move. You had no idea how happy I was. But you were still hesitant. I was. For a different reason. For a different reason, though. Right? Sure. Totally. And I get that. But I'm smart enough to understand why some people see me the way they do and why others don't. If you're in front of me and I get to spend time with you, I promise you're going to say, whoa, this dude truly, truly cares about the craft. Yes. He truly cares about the animal. That's all I care about. That's why we're talking right now. 100%. I wouldn't be talking to you and you wouldn't be talking to me if that was. And I don't take that for granted. I'm very, very blessed and I'm very honored that you would take the time. Because I know that if you're doing this, you at least see a little bit of who I truly am. Not the social media bullshit that people think they know. You know, that's important to me. It's important to all of us, man. Yeah. For sure. You know, I love this shit. And this is my life. This is my life. I didn't put in, I didn't put all the time I do with the rest of my life to be waking up and doing this on a daily basis. I love this shit. My wife felt bad because she scheduled me. My schedule is rough this week, right? Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, I am slammed with people from all over the country coming in. Yeah. Thursday, I get off before I drive Friday to do a seminar. And today, when I got home, after a really slam day, I told my wife, I said, that was amazing. This is what I need. I love, I love this. I know I'm busy. It's a lot. But I'm so happy right now.

And that's what allows me to know I still truly love doing this. Love it. There's no doubt in my mind this is what I want to do. I'm 53 years old. You know, I've been doing this for 28 years now. Can I build a facility? Hire 10 or 20 young trainers and make seven figures a year with shitty work? Easily. I have the reputation. I have the name. Right. Easily. The money is not what's important to me. I love doing this still. I love the interaction between me and the humans, me and the dogs. And I'm a constant student. And I'm going to continue to try to. I'm. Maybe at 20 percent at best of where I need to be at the end. So before I'm all done, if 100 percent is at the best, I'm lucky if I'm at 20 percent. I would say maybe 10 percent. I don't know, man. I wish I have some way to encourage everybody to kind of follow your path. Because. Because of. The growth and the evolution and the. Ultimately, the satisfaction of being able eventually to contribute, not to fool people, but to really contribute. Sure. And give something back, you know. It's amazing. There is nothing like it. No, there's not. There is nothing like it. There is no like this fucking trophy and whatever. Yeah, of course. I. Of course, it's a big deal. But. Contribution is the best reward. Giving something back. There is nothing like it. But that's why I want to step into that side, too, Ivan. Right. Because I want to conquer both sides. Well. When. I may never conquer that side, and that's OK. But I'm going to try to. When the winter time comes, when Florida is pleasant, you're always welcome here. And you can make some combo trip. You can go to Fabian. You can come here. You're always welcome here. Be careful what you offer. Because there's certain things that I don't have. I don't mind. You're always welcome. You know. Because, listen. Like I said. I went down by Fabian. And 30 minutes into him just talking. We didn't do nothing yet. 30 minutes of him talking. I went. Holy shit. I know where I fucked up. I know. I know where I hurt my dog in tracking. I knew it at that moment. It was me. It wasn't the dog. I always knew that. But now I knew why. And that made me just. And after five days watching my dog track, I went. OK. I love this. I am. I am all in. I'm addicted to this. That's kind of going back to Jay and martial arts and stuff. You know. Like you can. People can fool themselves and go and sign up. I don't know. Whatever. Taekwondo, Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, whatever. Sure. Somewhere around the corner. But who are you learning from? Listen. Jay did a podcast recently on the AACP podcast. Right. And I did one recently, too. And I think Jay.

I don't know if he was insulted, but I thought it wasn't necessary to ask this question. I thought it was great. And what they asked him was. One of the first questions they asked him, who would win in a fight? You or Larry? Right. I think I remember this. Yes. Jay was very diplomatic. He answered it very professionally, very diplomatic. I have a boxing background. I love to fight. I can fight. I enjoy it. He answered it very diplomatic. So when I saw that, I jumped on and I said this. I said, listen. I said, first of all, I think this is a great question because I know people wonder that all the time. I love to fight. I love to fight. I can box. I have a boxing back. Boxing is, I love it. It's my life. I can fight. But then I said, Jay would kill me. Like, literally kill me if he wanted to. I don't think people have a true understanding how effective jiu-jitsu is, especially at his level. Right. You understand? I have no issue in saying that. That doesn't make me feel bad or like, oh, I'm less of a man. Right. I don't think you know. For the average person, I'm going to beat you bad very easily. I'm going to beat you real bad very easily. And I love it. But when it comes right down to it, Jay would kill me. He's a different level. You know what I mean? And I think it's important that people see, whoa, this guy is being so brutally honest right now. Absolutely. That's the whole reason why I wanted my kids to get into jiu-jitsu so bad. Like, it's so powerful. So effective. You know, so effective. Do you want to stand in front of me and fight me with your hands? No. The average person does not want to do that. You're going to take a beating. I can promise you that. But when you have someone who's a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Jay used to fight professionally. That's a different level. It's a different. And he'll kill you. Ivan, I've watched him have full-grown men come out at seminars. And he'll tell them, kick me in the shins. And they got boots on. They're like, oh, what do you mean? No, kick me in the shins as hard as you can. And they do. He doesn't budge. I get nauseous watching that. Then he'll tell someone. Dude, we have, I mean, we have been, I mean, whenever, you know, way back then, Jay would come and would be, you know, just showing basic stuff. And it's like, okay, no. And now you're going to go to sleep. And that's what's happening. And then the kid is like, let's do it again. It's like, no. You're starting to like it too much. He told some dude, punch me in the nose. And here's the subject. We were talking about using the bite suits and bite work with aggressive dogs, right?

And we're talking about when the dog bites you, you shouldn't have a reaction. Like none. That's part of the power of it. We take that tool away from them. And you have a lot of people say, well, I didn't have a reaction. And we're trying to explain to them, no, you did. You just don't realize it. And then Jay will say, come here. Let me show you something. He'll say, punch me in the nose. He'll call out a guy. And the guy will like, but what do you mean? He's like, punch me in the nose. And the guy will hit them straight in the nose. Oh, I've seen when I was one time at his gym up there and he did exactly the same thing. I know exactly what you're talking about. And he'll say, hit me harder. And the guy will hit him harder. And he said, did I have a reaction? And all the people will say, no. And he said, yes, I did. I blinked. That's a reaction. I'm giving him something. Now, punch me in the nose. And he'll have a full-grown adult male. Punch him in the nose. And he doesn't budge. He'll like, hit me harder. Punch him in the nose and he doesn't move. Now, did I have a reaction? No. That's what we're looking for in the bite too. And I'm thinking, holy shit. Like, if I have to hit this guy, the average human being, I'm going to drop. I'm 260 pounds, 6'1". I'm going to drop you. If I hit Jay that way, it's not going to have the same effect. It's just not going to. You understand what I'm saying? But the point of it was, when we're in the bite suit, when the dog bites you, the point is not to have a reaction at all. Right. We take that tool away from him. People don't understand that, Ivan. They assume that we're putting the bite suit on. Well, they don't. Agonizing the dog. Because social media, because all of a sudden it's trendy to have bite suit. And now you're like, okay, I know what to do. And now you don't know what to do. Exactly. Right. We see Dylan with the gloves on. So now people have gloves on and the dogs are biting them. They don't understand the full concept. They don't understand it. That's the dog training world. So we do our best to educate people the best we can and explain to them the purpose behind it. So when we talk about, let's say, play, that's you. You have created this culture around play between dogs. Right. Jay has run with it. I have run with it. Many people have run with it. But they still don't understand it. And so when I ask someone, and I do online consultation with people from all over the world every day, I'll ask them a simple question. I watch their play video. Okay, what's your purpose behind that? Why are you doing it? What's your goal? What's your objectives?

Well, I'm trying to make the dog tired. And I'm trying to build our relationship. Okay, cool. Those things are valid. It's going to happen. But it's a small byproduct of the full purpose, right? Maybe 5% of what's about. Right. What people don't understand. And listen, for me, at least, I can't speak for you. I don't try to speak for you. I don't even try to speak for Jay. For me, my whole communication system can be taught in that game, in that play. Yeah. You had that video recently that you put. That's it. That was a very, I mean. That's it. I mean, if you use your brain a little bit, you should be able to get it, right? That's it. I'm setting rules. I'm setting boundaries. And I'm enforcing them within that game. So if you send me your dog that you say, if I walk my dog and he sees a dog, he loses his mind. He gets aggressive. He's least reactive. Okay. No problem. Well, guess what? When you send your dog to me, he's not going to see you walk for two or three weeks. For two or three weeks, he's on a long line in my fence in the yard and we're playing and playing and playing. And I'm going to teach him all the rules and boundaries within that game. So when that dog is crazy about me and he trusts me, he understands yes, he understands no. Now when we go for a walk and he's on a 27 foot flexi and he's having the time of his life and all of a sudden there's two dogs that have an underground fence and they run to it and they're barking at him. I just wait and I give him the choice to make the right decision. Yep. If he makes the right decision and doesn't do anything bad and say, hey, buddy, good job. Nice. I know what you're doing there. But if he makes the wrong decision, I can stop and address it. But it's going to be so easy to address it because we already taught that in my yard during the play. Because the concept is there. People don't get that. They still want to argue against it. That's okay. I don't take credit for that. I don't say, hey, this is something I created. They say, listen, do yourself a favor. Get possession games. Get chase and catch point two. Oh, your dog doesn't like to play. Oh, you gave up in five minutes. Watch Ivan play with the dog. A Malinois that won't play for 45 fucking minutes. Non-stop before he decides, okay, maybe I will play. That's my job. And what I do is to take the average dog owner, point them in the right direction and say, listen, there's better ways out there. That's it. And I take that role very, very seriously. Very seriously. So the day that I die, when it comes to the dog world, if someone says, what do you want to be remembered for?

I did the best I can to educate the general public at how could we make our dogs better. It's that simple. I believe it, man. It's that simple. I think that's a good way to wrap this up. I don't know how people will watch this. I mean, we can go on. Sure. I think we can fucking go on for I don't know how long because we haven't talked in a while like this. Yeah. It's all been text messages and whatever. But that was very, very cool. And I mean, yeah, we of course, we we stay in touch. But but the winter months, hopefully by then you get a puppy. Oh, I want a puppy so bad. And of course, I also can be one of the people in there that can give a puppy. But regardless of that, maybe maybe. I don't tell people. I tell very few who offered me puppies. Make the time to come down. It's going to be cool. Yeah. I appreciate that. Thank you. Listen, when I watch you and like all the people, whoever's on the team competing at the Worlds in someplace in Europe. Yeah. That's a fantasy to me. Like I look at that and I'm like. But that's how it starts. It starts with a dream. You have to have the dream. The best, man. That's got to be. I like it. The best. I love it. And I respect it. That's that's I think what we'd like in the dog world. You have to respect what it takes to get to that point. You know, it's very important to me. And I always will. I always will. You know. Make it happen. I know you can make it happen. All right, man. This this this was a I totally enjoyed this. Me too. Like I wish we don't want to stop. But the only reason I'm stopping is because I don't know if people will watch all this. It's over four hours at this point. Yeah. It's super cool. Larry. All right, man. Hopefully I see you soon somewhere. I appreciate you. Thank you for everything you've done in the dog world for the past 40 years. It doesn't go unnoticed. Believe me when I tell you. Yeah. But you're doing the same. Like we all are chipping in and contributing. And that's what's about, man. Thank you, Ivan. Take care. Have a good one, my friend. Thank you. Have a good one.