Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 61: David Garcia Suarez

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a marathon and then you have to start climbing a mountain right so the current really is yeah i mean it's very it kind of it doubles the just the power you need to yeah it's your double fighting resistance training really this year i think i have to i burned like 2500 calories or something like that just in that competition so yeah it was really tough how is it um how how um see like i mean i i i swim you know i i swim but even when i when you send me the pictures i go in my pool and i have you know my pulse just like making funny laps but i i got me excited uh but i'm thinking that like if i was to do something like this my problem would be how how do swimmers deal with everybody around you because i mean yeah when you start as a group you kind of you you must kick each other here and there something or or how do you spread out how does it go well actually the c is very big so right yeah the rhythm at the beginning you can have some struggle this year we were like 300 people so the beginning was was quite uh uh was quite uh was quite challenging and depending on of your spirit i was not competing i was just trying to to finish finish yeah yeah yeah and some some years i tried to compete uh this year just was uh my idea was just to finish so you go easy you go to the side and and you don't try to struggle and i like to begin always like in negative no so try to be very soft at the beginning warm up and then start fighting when you really i always feel okay after one kilometer no then is when i feel that i am warm up right that's when when you're like oh now it's now it's fun right yeah yeah so it's it's some well the people that goes to compete they is they do a sprint from the beginning but it's not my case by now i'm still i like my vision but uh no no not this year not this year right what about do you like when you when you do that type of swimming do you switch styles or just freestyle or how do you always always freestyle because if not you are really risking cramps yes that kind of the kicks are different yeah you're right oh i didn't think of that for a long run yeah interesting yeah because every everything changed when you are more than one hour you have to start thinking of feeding yourself you know the right because all you all your energy reserve have to change to different metabolism and also you have to feed yourself because all your gluten it goes away so you you run out of glucose so you have to feed you have to even drink even it looks like crazy to be they irritated in

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the water but happens so it's very yeah and speaking of this what happens uh i mean like when you when you actually are running marathon you know you you can kind of stop by a uh restroom a toilet and and go back or how how does it work in uh in the water what are the rules there is no option for that in the competitions you cannot even hold a boat or anything you yeah as long as you just gotta go you're at this point it's over wow so wow so if if you if you want to have some water from the boats they they were the organization was very nice they they only can throw to you you can grab the boat if not so what do you do as far as do you i mean because you need some energy beforehand but you don't want to get full because we know swimming and having a lot food it's just a bad idea so how what what is that preparation like right before the start what do you you know i i am i for that you know i like uh i'm not really the type of sport people that really take care of the food okay okay the night before we take some beer some good wine we do it we do it for a way of living actually you know so when you you are really prepared of course you have to wait three hours before you so you have to try to fill up your reserve for uh energy so right you take the last nice two nights before you eat a lot of pasta if you can these kind of things that bring power so you have power storage but you know it's i always believe more that when you do really endurance you you have to try to burn fat no this level of the medium to low intensity rhythm that you don't need so much carbohydrates so you can and i think it's very very important does the the mental factor like how mentally how how much you want to put up and and say no i will finish it versus in the initial stages of feeling uncomfortable and you're starting to be like oh maybe uh and then for sure you're not finishing right yeah like you you really need to be very committed to that you will finish when they they just have to have discomforts because discomfort comes like in any marathon no when you are like six kilometers swimming you say hey what the i'm doing here you're running is telling stop yeah i i i am fighting against the cramps in my legs i am writing with the jellyfish and with the current so yeah but well it's the fun of the sport no if we yeah it's like in igp we think about the difficulties we don't do it yeah for sure that that's that's very true that you kind of i mean that's that's when you think about it that's exactly why you're doing it because of to to challenge

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yourself and and and and ultimately there is a lot of good that comes out from that i am surprised in this kind of long distance it's a it's a little challenge for yourself you know it's uh in our dog's sport at the end i always think we we don't we don't compete you you do your performance you are not fighting against one close to another so you just yes your training and your work you try to do your best but it's not really a kind of competition you cannot do nothing to improve against and so it's just your strategy to have the better point but here you can compete sometimes you're in good physical conditions you you really can compete in the short term i am quite competitive so i try to always if i am fit i try to compete but you know people in the 50s now they are very big and sometimes you you we have better time than people in the 30s you know so this is really funny stories actually sometimes uh like with my time in if i compete in the in the 30s or in the 40 category i can win but in the 50s i i become fourth or it's difficult yes yes yes well that's that's good i think when we can i mean it's nice that you're still like i i mean i my you know like um my my left shoulder is kind of i mean i have really pretty severe arthritis at this point but the good thing is that i can still swim and i can even do freestyle because of the pork you know so as long as i am still very i'm questioning if i can do a long one yeah you know it's it's a it's a matter of training actually and the you know um for me also for the people in our sport when do we do helper work is a very good exercise because your shoulder are very protective yes the movement yes yes then i actually in this year i don't really have any lesion and sometimes i have to do a lot of dogs also in protection so yeah it's uh i think is a it's really good sport to cover and to prepare because sometimes for us in the people in the dark sport we do protection work but we don't warm up we don't do nothing to prevent we just go no yes and even even if you do even if you just go to the gym if you don't know exactly what you're doing in the gym and just you know just lift weights you don't let your body do the right movements and and you know the flexibility goes away and swimming is just uh i i love it i i'm always jealous when i hear that you do this stuff nice you're invited there you you know you i know you have a challenge and we do something together that would be fun i yeah i can't even remember when i mean i i used to swim not too bad like i i think i could do

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probably 107 or something you know 100 meters it's not you know i i used to swim pretty good but i don't know we'll see we'll see uh you know the nice thing is open water is different actually exactly exactly sometimes it's funny i have some friends that you you go to the swimming pool and they are the performance is very low and in the open water that we fight together but if we go to the same pool it's totally different different games yeah i had um you know because my parents used to work overseas and um they you know they back in i mean when i was really young and we were on the other side in the arab countries on the mediterranean side and i used to snorkel a lot as a you know teenager man i have so many funny stories with that because you know i mean i grew up when we grew up the movies like joe's they were you know those were real movies you know and there was one time that has destroyed they have destroyed the joy of the water for many people yes yes i i was gonna i was gonna drown myself one time because of two dolphins really yeah they just came and i mean they were as big as me and the one kind of really wanted to i mean very gentle but they were like around like really like just brushing with me but then i see the the fins and everything and i freak out and i start swimming in complete panic and guess what how i'm swimming because complete panic i'm just making a circle and it's way out i mean i i don't see the the beach or anything like i'm way out there with a harpoon and flippers and whatever i wore myself i was gonna die because i was like just thinking i'm swimming so fast but i'm making a circle you know that's not a joke actually yeah but yeah it's it's really cool actually is it did you see dolphins in the swim right right if if i had the right mindset it would have been actually a very cool experience you know because they chose to come and and interact and and who knows what they were thinking what what's with that human what what is it we we had that uh in malaga now some now and then people are in our swims they are watching dolphins and for us it's really yeah but i haven't been so lucky but yeah if i see them i would really i think i would enjoy a lot but of course at the beginning is something not new for you so your mindset whereas the things about yours right right yeah let's switch to let's switch to dog stuff let's go nice like what what i i i what i want to talk about is like i'm i don't understand i mean i i don't know if i understand or i don't understand but why is this confusion and why so many different um

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um like the evolution of the igp sport in particular it seems that it's it's very tricky how to even said because on one hand the mastery of the training and understanding how to create a behavior in so many different ways it's really we're getting really not good but excellent at that but at the same time we start to replace the main reason of the training and then the judging at this moment in obedience and in protection i think tracking is uh it's not as controversial as obedience and protection but in obedience and protection there is definitely a very strong divide amongst trainers and judges of what we want to see and and and can we find differences between different performances and how different the performances really are would we you know sometimes for the same performance a competitor gets 96 points and then very much for exactly the same performance they get 88 or 89 points and there is a confusion there is clearly a a a big confusion to some people now on another hand i believe that there is a other part of trainers that they are not confused they are just choosing that this is uh you know the the way they train is the right way and it should get the kind of points that um you know the maximum points and the reason i gave you again on the podcast is because on the podcast is because you're one of the you're not the only one but you're definitely one of the judges that see and judge in a very specific way and that specific way confuses some trainers makes other trainers angry or irritates them yeah and then there is another group of trainers and judges that really see what you're doing and appreciate it and are hoping that this continues that trend continues and as i said you're not the only one however they're not too many um i don't know where to start i'm sure like you now now that you've judged quite a bit very big events and there is always some level of controversy around it even even when you know oh that dog should have had it always has 97 points right so for sure it's an

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excellent obedience but in your eyes it makes 91 points or 92 points but then what is interesting and and actually cool is that when the dogs get lined up at the end they still rank in the same ranking it's just that they are not in the excellent categories but they are a little bit lower yeah to me this makes sense and i'm gonna kind of give my my take on this but why do you think let's let's start here why do you think there is this is it confusion first of all or is it just demand than people insisting that it should be this way not this like what what is your take on on the modern like the judging that's happening today yeah well actually difficult one no but actually it has is becoming uh actually nothing has changed really in the way of judging but now we are considering the emotional part of the dog the social connections the behavior of the handler and the technical expression of the dog so when you analyze all that and you rate all that and you really have a a clear picture what an excellent means the problem is when when we are um really not thinking that the dog can do an excellent and we give excellent to a very good very good uh describing our rules like the correct exercise but the correct exercise is very good and very good after all it's not a bad position i mean i think i think we we have we have already uh talked about this for me in the modern way of uh of analyzing the the work of the exercises uh a dog that gets very good i would love to uh say 90 is excellent you know because then i can be right in the points because at the end what makes the difference you see in the big championships sometimes it's half point one point right yeah so in between when you make the analysis of five disciplines like an fmbb and maybe the winner is only 0.5 away between each other so if we are giving points like hey why are you so so three not giving points because i have to be honest and try to save the points for the real excellent i i think it comes it can count if i give four extra points would be easier for me right i give four extra points to everybody no i make my calculations and at the end i make plus four so everybody is happy but yes we are but then we're still reaching the limit of 100 points and then we're getting to the place where you just said that the the dog that makes 97 and the dog that makes 98 rightfully so the one makes 98 but the actual difference in the performance that day is much bigger than that one point or half point correct but and and i think we we have seen that this situation

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historically you know that that you you feel that maybe the winner was not the real winner oh yeah yeah so if if if we are consistent and very deep in the analysis of the exercises and then we make it in category and then we translate into points that's one of the things we we can also face we can face how to translate our qualification system into point that's something that we have to little narrow space you know i see a lot of things but then i have to come to a qualification but this qualification only let me play in one point half points you know is because people think about points it it never takes points right we never think about points in the good judging what you do is qualification it's good it's very good it's high good it's medium you know no it's if there is some mistakes and in correction some signs of discomfort in the dog you you have to take it and right we are now in this also this two two different uh very interesting but also very dangerous moment so if we want to respect our sport and if we want to survive we have to do this analysis you know we have many fields to solve i also i agree to my uh to to and i i can understand sometimes the confusion because we have so little space so sometimes you give a dog 88 and one dog 84 and you think wow this is not four points different you know know it's not four percent different no it's maybe 20 percent different but the rules are described like that and we must be honest with the rules yeah and and for me what is a little bit sad is the if we don't really take the challenge now it's a really nice moment in our sport and it's a moment of evolution and of course when you do the evolution at the beginning the results are going to be different but now you can see better expressions sometimes in the handling of the the handlers and also better expressions also in the mindset of dogs so i think we are in a very nice and interesting and more complicated for the training because now we don't want to do all only to we we want to see dogs as describing the rules as an utility dog needs to is that a dog that is communicating with the handler not only in the hope or expectancy or avoidancy of some mechanical stuff no so we want to have the whole thing because when you have an utility dog what is going to really matter is that the dog wants to please you and wants to work with you even being a very strong dog you know yeah let's talk earlier i mean let's elaborate a little bit more on this because uh i think that this is probably the

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kind of the core conversations that we need to have and and you know kind of how like like if let's say we pick the obedience and you know there is there is almost at this moment two two different paths if you want to look at it that way the one is uh again kind of that mechanical more mechanical but at the same time i know what i'm gonna say now it's gonna piss off 90 of the trainers but i hope you know i'm just sharing my opinion and i think we need to share our opinions and and challenge each other's ideas and ultimately that's how we grow instead of saying well i don't understand what you mean or no so so i i'm gonna try to kind of see if i can like like the you know that kind of what you said a little bit of mechanical but also not meaningless but but the purpose of the obedience gets replaced by you know the dog is not necessarily engaged with a purpose uh uh for that the ultimate task of what they need to do they are just trained to do a certain behavior but if the dog has a the ability to converse then talk back to us if we ask them why they're doing it they wouldn't be able to say anything more because it's like well i'm doing it because my toy is right here or because that's where i'm getting my food and and and and in this way the like the other side of the other option and opportunity to train i find more interesting i wouldn't say if it's more difficult or more challenging it's just more interesting and more direct because uh the the same behaviors they emerge from from the dog's drives and the instinct and most importantly what you said that social interaction that it's clearly we're doing something together i'm not just blindly following a target being food being a toy or something like that and i think when when the when if a judge can recognize it then it makes sense to make a distinction and say well which one do we like better now it's different when the training is so good that you cannot pick it apart and you you know it happens very oftenly because of course i totally agree with you with the technique has evolved so much but imagine one very very simple example you you have a dog you we do some different disciplines no but imagine you have a dog that do a super nice dumbbell but then one day you need your dog to bring you one shoe okay the dog that maybe have a super nice technique in number work doesn't know how to bring you something that is not just a dumbbell yeah but that's where i guess the the people that listen and that would disagree with with this will say well i don't care about the show this is a sport yeah yeah but and but problem i have

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the problem is is really the basic of what we are doing we have this this uh philosophical problem what we are doing in our sport we are doing right are we doing a sport nope we are not recognizing us as a sport we are not a proper sport we are not in the list of the sports you know because we have maybe we could do it but not we haven't that done that work we we are sure and we love to say and we are we are sure that we are doing a sport but we are not you know yeah i if i go to my village and say i think this is a good start to to i mean i think really this is where the conversation has to start yeah what what are we doing with what is it what is right that's right so are we in a sport no not real we we we say we know we do but we haven't made this the really the steps to create an sport so if i go to my major uh in my town say i am practicing in sport and i need facilities the major will look this the list of sports and we will they will tell me no this is not an sport it's not here so this is one of the biggest issues we should face the community of dogs lovers actually dog sport and second we haven't proved that we are selection program neither are we we haven't proved scientifically that we are doing a selection program and we have yes because we but you're so right because we like the the the whole community we are kind of this is a very fundamental like we we have to we have to have a fundamental objective and we don't have it seems like right yeah what what are we doing really really one of our really weakness uh we we know we know that what we do is good for the dogs and good for the selection we know 100 especially me and you that we work with normal dogs i i my 90 normal dogs and and with people outside the sport when because you can misunderstand that what the dogs that we have are normal no no we have really really really nice dogs the normal dogs the mental capabilities physical capabilities resilience uh motivations capability of learnings are totally out of of these dogs and we have wonderful dogs and we have a wonderful program and we have a wonderful sport but we are not recognized and then we can have this situation as uh as unluckily uh uh austria hat that then uh stupid policy come and say this is bad because you are doing harm to the dogs and and we are helpless just like that how how doing something so nice so good for the dogs so good for the selection so nice sport we are so weak yeah yeah so for me interesting should be should be really one of our really concern no no yeah yeah

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yeah that that's right so and also in the judging for me it's very important now we try to follow these concepts we want to improve the dogs not to keep the dogs we we we we do really take the challenge and now this the the program in the last rules i think is totally in a nice way we can improve of course there is things to improve but and things that we can check better but we have really nice and very very complex and interesting program we need very complex mental mentality dogs you know because we have three disciplines so different and we need to have the skills and we need to have a really free and the dogs show us that he's free in the in the trials because he is in 10 meter line and totally free in the rest okay or even free even the tracking no so the dog can choose yeah he wants to stay or not if you if we put in our program what we consider normal to normal dogs to really normal dogs they wouldn't be able to face it that would be really over the limits like by but really really like what yeah right really really far and we are not even recognizing ourselves now but we are in that evolution no before we have dogs that were very tough in the old days we're very tough but we're very strong we have uh sucho we have really dogs that are good for the police and for the army for me it's something we must not forget we don't want yes obedient dog we want to have very strong dogs that can be very obedient guide about dog yes strong but guide about of course so but sometimes the techniques are for dogs that are not as strong yeah but even even the techniques i would i would even say that the techniques the the the whole systems of trainings are um you know like i i i i'll kind of go around that and get back to this because i think that's gonna hopefully make sense like there is i mean everybody now is familiar with ufc and martial arts and actual real fighting to where you you get knocked out and you may go to a hospital and it's you're really in the ring really really fighting and you're training with the skill of how to win a fight this is when you fight and you train for real how to fight and then there is the other option and i don't know how i know you have it in europe as well but i don't know how you call it but it's like in the states we have the the american pro wrestling which is like there was just uh yesterday uh one of the famous stars hulk hogan he died you know but but basically what it is it's very fake pre-arranged script of fighting you know like you you basically like this

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yeah and you finally you die right and and there is a lot of training that goes with this and again it's a script it's it it's very highly orchestrated and it's very cool to watch and if you are you know you've never been exposed to it and you're 13 years old and you watch it you're like wow this this this could be real but it's not and that kind of the pro wrestling stuff it's pure entertainment and there is a lot of time and effort to put this quality training so you can take it so it looks really really really real but it's not it's it's a nice you know where i'm going with this right and and so when we get back to dog training we have so many different ways to create behaviors but we lose the meaning of the why are we doing it and then you have a dog that looks at you because it needs to interact it needs to stay connected and we have a dog that looks at you without the need to connect and interact yeah so as a judge if you can see it i think you are obligated to make a distinction now as i said in the in the american pro wrestling fights it's if it looks so real there is nothing you can do then they are equal or maybe even better but the moment when it's obvious there should be a distinction uh simply because we we have to ask the question what are we doing are we is this entertainment and are we in this fake final reality fighting or are we trying to create a real interactions yeah let's take let's take blind search for example i i've been thinking so much about a lot of stuff and and so we have a dog that goes around the blind and it's really like this and there's nothing right in my opinion this should not be encouraged because it clearly the dog is looking for something else he's not looking for a decoy and to to apprehend somebody he is looking for i don't know a ball on a magnet or a balloon or or something but it's not looking for a decoy there yeah because you know you know and and in my opinion it's almost if if the dog goes around and doesn't look i think it's harder for them to say well did the dog really check or no versus well this dog is looking for something but it definitely not looking for a helper in there yeah yeah yeah these are the problems that i have you know and on one side again it's very attractive and it's very cool to train it but we're losing the meaning of what are

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we training for right yeah it's it's as i said is that in our philosophy mindset what we want to do no so i think we need everything we are in this moment that we need everything we need that uh that we we have to create a proper sport in this proper sport the the pointing system the evaluation has to go deeper yeah so if we we need to have more tools to be honest and to be able to really make the category into the qualifications into points and so it's something to really sit down no and and try to evolve in that and also we need to prove that we what we do is good for the dogs and we need to do we need also to prove that our this is really a selection program for the utility dogs because now and you know and i know some dogs that we have in high level competition would wouldn't be good utility dogs and we have a situation we are starting to have the situation that some forces police or armies don't want dogs from our program and you know like that that that's so true because i again i mean man i i don't want to remind myself how old i am welcome but but you know when when i started in the sport the transition from a shoot country dog to being a military or police dog was just this little was just this little and the beauty of this was that what we were trying to do is we were trying to say okay you're in a really in a fight drive and you're angry how can we control you and how we can have both in an optimal picture and the modern solution in training kind of lost that because we are deciding to fake the seriousness and have the control and not risk the challenge of how to really have it uh uh in more pure form right yeah but what i think is is in the mindset of the program you know is to try to to evolve that we we need dogs that have that serious need but with better self-control and their social abilities now now before in the like 20 30 years ago to have the level of dogs that we have now sometimes in protection you couldn't have a social dog at the same time but in some dogs we are achieving that but we don't really have the clear tools to make a clear difference between those dogs and the fake dogs no that we we could it was very nice as simple from you like this fake fight or real fight so we should um and and you and and really the good uh the good judges they see and we see that they're a good helper sees uh and a good competitor see but sometimes we don't want to see you know they're afraid to make to they're afraid to point it out and this is a problem

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not like like in the in the system of training no nobody is going to to to shoot their own feet no if if i start punishing the way i train i am punishing myself so that's one of the points no but uh but i said that we we are in a very very difficult moment but really challenging very interesting if we face the challenge we will grow and if we if we don't that sometimes i have that same idea i i i don't do you know i don't like uh to be like or like like the mean guy you know sometimes it's judging because it's it's it's it's not in my in my way of being you you know me uh right right it's uh it's but i really are in this challenge to improve we want to improve what we are doing we have to really struggle and so how do we improve how do we i mean is it a education like what what can we do like to yeah it's like how can we how can we of course thing is not the right word but how we can excite trainers to kind of shift back a little bit to to actual more purposeful training instead of okay i have the behavior and it looks like a real thing but everybody know it's not how do we come back a little bit at least a little bit to start to come back you know this that's really one of the that's why sometimes people can get angry of course because it's the you have to change totally mentality you have to change totally the structure of training and sometimes even you have to trade the type of genetic because you right now now we see dogs that cannot handle that self-control that they get rights they they avoid they escape they get motivated but they have no self-control you see in so many dogs in the but you know yeah yeah yeah i i was just gonna say but this is the problem i think this is like a very very interesting problem because it's almost hard to say is it the dog genetics or is it like like let's take an example when i grew up you know like we i mean at school we would get in fights i would i would come home with a bloody nose frequently you know and but i knew how to take it there is kids now that they they get like just called it not even touch just just hold it and they crumble but it it's not necessarily because they are weak genetically it's just how the environment around them is and it's the same with the training i think sometimes simply the training prevents the dog to to grow and become resilient and sometimes it's the genetic and that makes it even more complicated for a judge and for breeder to navigate and find out right well actually uh and you you see very oftenly no the the the

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problem and the risk is that the way we judge influence so fast in the genetics because the the time of evolution if a dog you have a new generation in two years you know for our kids we are talking generations are much much longer and the genetical influence is not so be so clear but in our the way we are talking about the genetics of the dogs especially because of the genetic of the dogs you know how fast they can uh the variability even in the leaders and the selection how fast the steps can go no correct because we have we have a litter with six puppies eight puppies that from that litter we choose and then we do another job and so in 10 years we can have five generations yes and the the systems or the doctor fits in the systems can model the genetic the way we analyze the dogs in the judging can influence in the genetic yes and you i'm sure because you have so much experience of you are open your mindset you you are open the the gene pool to different dogs that are coming out of igp because i think the what you see in the igp gene pool now is that you are missing parts yeah even if you are not missing parts it's it's more difficult to to be certain that what you are seeing is what it is right absolutely absolutely yeah because you have to do that filter even for for reading is even more difficult even more important even more important now you have to filter the training you have to analyze the training the life and then take a conclusion because at the end this is phenotype it's not genotype you just see the the genetic of the dog plus the environment the training the handler everything we were talking so when you want to breathe you want to you you need to know very uh clearly the genotype not the phenotype yes and you have to work with the phenotype absolutely i mean and kind of what you were saying like we i mean you know let let's just take a what right let's take boxer let's take a boxer today what the boxer looks like and genetically and their qualities and physiologically and everything i i know i i think it's without a debate that if not even a lot of people but enough people put the effort to revive the breed within 10 years we will have yeah we will have them back this is the beauty of of if we if we know what we want yeah actually you're talking for one of my favorite breeds actually when i started training i started with boxer and i yes i don't recognize it's a shame it's a shame because they were so brave so tough so full of energy and now i would uh unfortunately i must say that box that i find sometimes are not not boxer for me anymore

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and so but even if you start with the worst of the worst within 10 years through selection and smart you you have them back well actually it's the the really beauty the the beauty in the in the german shepherd in the in the malice actually was like that we the the program was the weakness of the of the breed and try to make it bigger no yeah and so yeah what was it what was the problem of the virgin shepherd oh lack of nests not solid no good grips what what is the virgin ring now you need that rock you need super grips you know just totally the opposite of what was the problem of the origin of the brief so of course if you do and understand understand a big program and really big effort you can change but you must be able to have the focus on what we are changing and now we don't have that so clear anymore for me the evolution now is in the we have wonderful dogs but there are many of very very oftenly you have dogs that cannot hold their drives they cannot really have this power of self-control you know that's genetic that's a is in the psychology is is considered like a muscle you know the self-control and that self-control is something you can improve by training but also there is a big big part of genetics and also with these social capabilities you know that we need dogs that work for pleasing that have a really big self-control and i think now is the evolution no the evolution now in like in obedience when we analyze we want a doctor is really communicating with you is communicating with you but with good that social connection with the same with the self-control to be in the right position you know so for me that we are very nicely in this direction no so because before we only many years ago we had dogs that were very submissive where we're correct but very submissive and then we wanted to see happier dog and then we have dogs that were very happy but very incorrect yes you know and then we have dogs that are very happy but correct but you faking the connection and now we want to see the whole communication we have to have a dog that have good motivations but they hold that knowledge and self-control through social connection so yeah we are yes for me and and understanding understanding why am i doing what i must to do right like the purpose the purpose is it's in the progression of in of the let's let's defend because we we love we defend this in the sport but we are doing super super super selection for utility dogs because if you have a dog that can handle the whole part of his brain he has social connection is one part of the brain he has

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motivations drives self-control resilience adaptation we check so many nice things when we really analyze deeply our program you know but uh but if we don't want to go on in this analysis then because it's uh is the recipe i i want to follow but then we are not evolving right and i think is we are in this nice moment of evolution um and if also for me much with this idea of having better utility dogs because you need a dog that is listening to you mainly i i i need you to guard i guard i need you to start i search i need you to bring me that i do i need you to stay stable even in an airport with a slippery floor and very difficult and surroundings i do right you know and and what we do is a wonderful tool to create these dogs we need the physical part the health part the mental part and the drives part and we want to put everything together you know and if if we don't take the challenge okay then we are not complying our philosophy of purpose that we should really for us should be important not the points but improving the quality of the dogs yeah yeah this uh this is a very serious debate actually i mean i'm sure you know it's like like i i've been in a few different kind of meetings and conversations um very recently and and and it's like like well is it a sport is it uh uh partially selective uh and and breed selection and and is it like a utility component like who are we like we don't have we're kind of losing identity and what you were saying i mean everything that you say is kind of like you know like i mean even with the struggle you know we go here and then we tilt it so far back and maybe we try again but as long as we are doing this i think we're still trying to move forward with the middle and i hope that right now we are a little bit more uh on on one extreme that um like uh i mean imagine imagine a border collie not doing agility but actually doing what they're supposed to do doing sheep harding the way you train the dog a border collie to hard is by using its natural instinct and the social interaction you you're not tossing food to convince them to go to the right or to the left yeah nothing wrong with tossing food but but you almost lost the meaning you you you kind of lost the purpose of of what what it is about yeah but um you know what with that that kind of dogs are super interesting and it's a when you analyze them the mentality also in that dog is is amazing the work and the work was based on the results of course no in the functionality then we take this dog out of

1:05:29

down functionality we take all the evolution of the work and and then you have dogs for whatever agility obedience yeah they are like once the like you see the the numbers on this sport some some now and then appear not the dogs but the work the genetic work that this dog have done is is impressive and well i i i no question i i also have what the call is myself actually no no i i highly respect them i mean i highly respect them for me all these dogs that have like if you see a good hunting dog or a good herd of the dog or you know whatever is based in the utility uh is it's something really really uh amazing to see and to respect yes and and for those dogs sometimes education is easier because imagine if everything we have to do is just in protection for our dogs we you don't need another motivation because the protection is there no what they more yes love to do is there no so yeah it's it's the the type of motivation and the possibility to have the the control and then we have this dog that are just not like in border college that you see that this sensibility so high that sometimes you can fake that you are doing everything positive but you know we know it's not real no you know this this problem also we have around that there is people just taking positiveness pure positiveness but it's not real because you have these social dogs that what not can be a correction for this kind of dogs is not even a bad look to your dog right yeah so yeah there is that whole other thing that yeah i don't even want to go there because that's a whole other problem but but this is is the moment we have we have to face no and yeah we we have to face we we want to evolve and be respect to respectful with the rules because the rules are clear on this they the the rules are searching for utilities the rules give us the framework to work in the positiveness and the and and try to have to reach the best harmony possible through the training no so if you have a crystal ball where how do you see the future where are we going not where you wanted to go but where do you think we're headed for me you see i am really afraid for our pro for our activities i'm yeah i'm starting to be every time less and less positive i am yeah i try to be a very positive person but if we don't wake up and we really don't fight to have utility dogs and we want to stay in this faking yeah the ideas and then we we are prone to disappear we are prone to disappear because uh i think the society needs our dogs needs our selection needs our

1:08:54

knowledge but it's we have improved it's not and and maybe we go too late because in the all these animal is uh welfare laws that we are having in europe uh it makes close to impossible to really sustain the training the training the honest training you know because europe is so different man so different yeah like i i don't like sometimes i just don't understand how how people cannot come together you know how we started the the conversation today with the iacp and that organization that we have here like there is a need for such organizations in europe even like there is a bad bad need for something for some organization and community not the igp sporting like a like a overall uh um organization that stands for or at least challenges all this ideology driven uh sometimes really nonsense that everybody submits to yeah but i mean the tickets like like the tickets that was a that was just a a big nail in the coffin that that like talking about fake fighting and reality there was no reason not to try to stand for this and say yeah it's okay to have it it really it's okay to have it and and educate and explain instead of just because even though we don't have the tickets that's not gonna make those extreme people happy nothing will make them happy they will keep going i know they will keep going and igp i i don't want to say it but if we keep this momentum igp will be gone but guess what next will be agility next will be just just any dog training you know if they will not they don't stop unless somebody says stop for me the dogs themselves they are at least because the dogs are right where the dogs have been always our companion you know for doing things together if we we if we don't do that then you can substitute the dog for a a sheep or a goat or a rabbit you know and then you don't have a carnivorous and then you don't need to feed them with another animals you know because for some fundamentalist animalist you if you if you have to feed your dog who is more important or your dog if you go to the deep philosophy you don't have the right to have a dog that eats another animal just for fun right because you can substitute a dog or a rabbit or for a rabbit very true and then we don't so the the the the dogs themselves are you know in the long term of course a is is like going very far in the philosophy extreme but if you you can't consider that actually no so yes for for me uh is you did very nice example of this baking fight what are we doing like this is uh how how is the name in english for for this

1:12:36

fight it's called american professional wrestling or the wrestlemania or you know but but it's a it's a big entertainment and it's big money in there i mean bigger money than the actual fighting of course of course but what what we what do we want for igp we want that or we want the real my point that that's kind of thing that's the conversation we need all of us we need to have that conversation yeah that was a very cool example actually very and and then it's very real a lot of people don't and i i speak with some friends and they just want to fake they don't want they they just want that you know they they want to do that yeah not not really for uh i'm sure for you for me when i have a dog that that if my dog cannot really cross that limit and be and really utility dog i am not really satisfied with him i love him i i i i have i recently i will not tell the name of course but i had this dog it was my dog but it was not a utility dog well you know like there is a few examples that are very easy for for people that are listening to us and are not quite understanding what we're talking about and one would be let's say you you try to teach a dog to play ball you can especially if it's a you know a working dog you know that he has the the innate genetic predisposition to to chase and and catch things instead of using that innate predisposition and just simply throw the ball and encourage him to chase which most likely they will anyway you decide to shape the behavior by using food as a reward for something that is already rewarding on its own so you will have the dog look at the ball and then click and treat and then eventually you know little by little by approximation you create a retrieve but that retrieve becomes an obedience exercise it's not a unnatural behaviors anymore it is really a change of a change of a change of conditions no yes i i sometimes say about that remember when the people start with these clicker ideas they they did seminars with chicken so i think yes we must not be confused and not try to do chicken training in our dogs no right right right right another big one another really really like really big one and i talk about this like i have a like at my school for the doctrine us we have a whole uh uh lesson on this that there is there is so many interesting experiments with dogs uh naturally seeking eye contact so in there um there i mean anybody can look them up on youtube or or whatever they're all out there one very interesting experiment they did it was uh they put three or four

1:16:18

four people in chairs one is blindfolded one has a bucket on their head one has nothing eyes are open and one has whatever but basically only one person has the eyes that can interact and everybody has some food in their hands but the question is they let a dog to come in and which person the dog will choose to manipulate to get the food and of course over and over again they're like i can talk to you i see you and we can interact give me some food and ignores everybody you know by just naturally then they did another experiments they would put a like in a plate a piece of food and leave the dog in front and they will look at the dog and the dog wouldn't touch it it's obedient and then they will close their eye and a little time goes by a little more and the dog just kind of goes up so you know you know that it's very natural that they seek eye contact and not just eye contact but they interact through that but that that's something we have done with the selection in uh in the dogs in general like a species too yes it is something that the studies also you see how big the evolution in that that even you can a dog can recognize your pointing better than a chimpanzee right right that's the same thing that that that is something that we have evolved in the quality of the dogs and i am always saying that we must improve that even yeah exactly it is it's our moral duty to our dogs the moral duty to our dogs they don't have natural selection so they have an environment and we have to adjust this naturality these qualities to the the the environment we have we are putting the dogs you know and now with the good selection how many of our dogs have problem with the stones or with the gunshots or with the fireworks you know and how many from dogs out of these programs have really they they really have very big issues actually a lot of problems you know it's now and then before when we started yes even the guy they get the gunshots were something that some dogs now you can could find now and then dogs that have that sensibility now nowadays how many dogs have problems with the gunshots very very true very true and but this is on the other side we we hurt our sport and the dogs that are in our sport with the jumps because look at the the ring jumps they never change they are still the same as they were long long time ago we keep making it easier we keep making it more difficult more more acceptable for those that are not capable to be part and that affects the selection right i i totally agree you

1:19:56

know we have like this um when you work with dog you you can you have to do like i can think right to my dogs that they can solve and grow and be stronger or i can be negative to them and start to weaken in the system yeah but yeah but what at the end i i weaken the whole thing every time it's going to be less and less strong less powerful less healthy less because yeah like of course we the old ring is for they never needed any x-rays i know i know nobody the the most the craziest thing about it is that even dogs that had some mild dysplasia they were still 11 years old jumping the jumps yeah and and and then there is a question well what do you do do you use in your the program or you don't you know um well let's shift a little bit to something else that i kind of am interested to to hear your opinion because um as a competitor and spectator i see it and i i i'm confused but i'm curious to see even if you are are comfortable to talk about it because i i don't want to put you under pressure on anything i'm talking about the dumbbells and the lines that whole decision that came how do you feel about this uh uh like like it's almost guaranteed that when you throw over the hurdle or over the a frame it's almost 80 percent certain that you will be off the the borders yeah for me it's uh we don't see really big issues or because of this actually now we have a almost one year experience you know with this with this new thing uh well it is i think there is not really a big thing about this but uh there is a little advantage with this idea for the people that is a good in aiming if you are good in aiming you don't have to do it that's for sure you don't have to wait so if we want to do very sportive no but it's not really one of the biggest issues for me in this in we i think we have bigger problem with the with the going away of the sticky yeah that's a question about that more but i guess what the the lines what irritates me is this almost unnecessary that time that's just yeah yes yes yes yes um yeah well and and then depending uh i tell you another problem that not it's not always a problem but it can become a problem and uh let's say the let's say it's raining and you have three days of competition and you put the dumbbell always on the same place then it starts to you know make that specific area very different and difficult from the first dog to the dog um you know later on as far as the pickup and and and everything on the dumbbell you know you know the the the thing is that we want we we want to create an sport that have

1:23:48

similar uh possibilities to everybody but yes it's so difficult because then then if we consider in like in these different little differences then we have to stop with tracking because tracking is so correct so big difference between one one moment to another you know so helper helper to to try to be uh for me one of the discussions we have to have with the helper work now it's more much more difficult now because we we need very special helpers today yeah we took the weapons away from them so they they must really trust me you you you have to filter the personality not only the technical part you have to have dogs you you know no it's uh you are a helper you you can influence the dog not not by your movements but your abilities to really transmit no this pressure your this energy so now we have this problem no that the dog uh helper can fake the movement or they can feel the movements no it is yeah with uh with you know you you know my helper we were very proud of him and but he he is a fighter from the beginning you know he's he's in the fighting sport so even as person you talk to him he transmits you yeah he has the right the right energy yeah yeah yeah i know what you mean and and we and and you know the helpers we all like to have that you know have that special sometimes not in the technical part but not sometimes we are focusing too much in the technical part but now we need an extra so for me now we have this this situation the dumbbell well i is not i'm not super happy with this idea i don't i i think there is some disadvantage depending on the person or the lack you know when you throw the dumbbell but i mean you know what i'm thinking i what what i'm thinking is i i i'm okay with the lines and i see how we need a little bit of consistency and everything but but we can have just to increase the the chances that people will throw it within the box we can at least do it just just like uh like 50 centimeters on each side that already will increase the the the success rate you know and it still maintains that it's really difficult to to hear it yeah the for me the the thing is if if we want to be like escorted if we are going to play for somebody then we must play for everybody yeah or or you know or nobody or everybody no yeah so for me i like um sometimes it's the question of losing time no in our right idea of evolving the sport sometimes we need to to to save time because we we need more participants but in our sports yes yes but then man now now now you got me thinking now i'm gonna bring a whole different twist on this oh listen to this

1:27:27

now ah listen so again let's go back in the old days as as we say you put the dog protection you put the dog on down and you go and you search the helper and you will say well it takes time it takes time but what do you see you see a dog that has to control itself that is he getting distracted how is he maintaining the control like you see so much in that down stay when there is a little bit of extra there you know yeah yeah and we took it away well if you know it's like this evolution of the of the rules for for me one of the evolution we could face is like in for sure in the big competitions is like the the the wrapper of the judges because that sometimes takes longer than the performance of the dog itself true you know yeah it becomes a mini seminar you know it's it is something that at the end when you can if we we put the like the the ideas clearly uh like um the clear explanation of the things and most the people don't are not really interesting on your qualification but or it's a way of blaming the they have the judge for the qualifications right right but but at the end if we are in a sport important are the points you know when we are in a program of selection then you have to give this uh this this explanation and nowadays and likely sometimes you need to still keep on in the education no yeah your healing is not excellent because the dog was looking in the armpit and forging and you need some body health for the turn about and you know all these kind of complex things in the like in the free healing and the dog i think they need to be sad i think i think what yeah i think when they when this is yeah but uh but but but but the thing is sometimes it is a little bit surprising for me that so expert handlers don't know don't know what is happening yeah and you know yeah because some some yeah so because again we we have the the nice example we want to fake what we are doing or we want to see a real connection and interaction and education in our dog no so but don't you think that it's really believe that we what we are doing don't don't you think that it's important because of that for you to tell to to educate to some to some degree to say well that's kind of what i'm that's why you know instead of yeah i i you know there are times when judges or not judges but competitors say like oh that that judge doesn't know anything and and and they come to that conclusion sometimes because there is not enough explanation and it's of course as a competitor you it's your obligation to educate yourself and to to understand rules and and

1:31:22

but when you when so many are confused then what do we do well because now we have the this problem of information actually the information are so spread um sometimes are so spread in some techniques that are not the fundamentals what we are the complexity mindset we want to we need to see in an utility doc to express that we are watching and excellent no because the dog performing is good but the complete mindset is the very good right the the technical completeness is in the very good but in the technical completeness we are analyzing the social relationship and we are analyzing the motivation the openness in the dog and the behavior of the handler and the technique in the dog so just as you're talking so i i'm certain that so many people wouldn't know what exactly you're saying and and and that's why i think that there is somehow we we we are lacking somewhere in educating everybody not that i have an ex a solution or idea how to but you know sometimes it's uh it's curious in in sometimes it's curious in these people that really complains and they are very angry to me but actually it's something it started to be a little bit heavy in in this in this in the judging because you know for us when we judge we are losing time we are losing money yes yes sometimes with you and you are losing friends now and then you find very interesting people and i think you do with your heart you know you try to be as honest and and as as clear as you you can do and at the risk all the time to lose it's a situation it's a lot of lose lose lose lose lose but uh but we love it actually you know it's it's i think if we believe in the evolution i i don't consider nobody my myself in this but i think in the right direction in the judging if we are brave enough is when we can grow in in the quality of the outcomes in the quality of what we are doing and in the quality of in the future of the genetic and our very nice um judge always told me that you are judging what you will see in the future that's so true wow yeah yeah i think it was so clever but but and now before there were more respect to worth the judges you know and but now they yes the that that in the social no no that's a global thing no the we we think we know more and we don't respect like the big figures you know like the of the in the judging so it's uh uh you know it's uh okay i respect the i i respect this concept because it's the way to grow maybe i don't understand because i don't have such a big knowledge but i have to try to grow right you know so if if if if uh and and this i think generally in everything now everybody can

1:35:15

critic politics or education or science or whatever without really really deep knowledge you know but that yeah that's something i'm trying to know that no it's a little bit we have in the society overall it's not that dog is is not in the sport of our dog no it's something that you can see in many situations you know and we we have to face that not if if we want to evolve or we want to just as we as we are right and but it needs i i think it's important just like right now how we are talking i know some people will really agree some will be very confused and some will absolutely disagree but this is not that it's good or bad i think this is actually an opportunity for all of us to keep talking about it so we can have some uh kind of universal understanding and approach what the sport is where we want to go and and agree to some extent of of you know and hopefully there is some some some comments and and and conversation starts you know i totally agree i think the the people that really are is deep in in this idea not in the sport but evolving the dogs you know i really think our our igp right now is is a super tool to evolve dogs to have better dogs we want the dogs i don't want i want i don't want to keep dogs i i really i firmly believe that we are going to have better dogs through this program but we must face the complexity we need strong minds but very friendly flexible minds a strong mind is not that you have a strong dog that is hungry because i don't that is very strong in the nerves it's very self strong in the self-control very strong in the drives very able to create knowledge you know in the frontal connection with the drives you you i we we share that that passion for in the for the really the science behind this you know and we do we really do mental roles in our dogs but we need the genetic that really help in this because the complexity of dogs that we have now if you try to train any other dog to do the performance we are doing with the super dogs we can find now and then but for me the our responsibility is to improve even then or we consider that we have just achieved the limits in our progression do you no yeah no yeah and and stay on track and not lose the part you know what like i i just as i was listening to you right now and and i always remember i don't know i don't even think it was a podcast or we were just talking with with harry archon and we were talking some something within the same we had the same conversation and somehow the bh you know the beha test came about and he said something really

1:38:54

deep and simple at the same time i was like okay so what do we have in the the bh we we have the obedience portion and the traffic portion and basically we want to see who the dog is and he gave this example of so there was going to be a trial and they're getting ready for the trial and the guy comes with the car opens the door gets the dog off leash to the clubhouse puts him on a down go get some beer meanwhile there is all sorts of people around sits downs have a beer and and basically he's like that was the bh there is no better bh than than what i just see that's the whole idea of having why are we doing something right it's like uh i said it's uh in the the we we need we need to have dogs that are well educated and do a sport no i always insist very much in in our people and you see very openly dogs that do a sport but they are not really educated you can see sometimes in reality yeah so for us it's the purpose if in in our dog sport is that we check first the education the dogs are well educated and they are social compatibility content compatibility and also this social adaptability is that we can do even a sport with them but uh we we must be able to to have a really a fundamental no like in the obedience i i need to be able to communicate with my dog not only creating conditionings no we are not machines of opening open and conditioning but we have to create connection communication communication and from that we can create the conditioning that you you see in many and sometimes even as judge you recognize the mechanical training they have done no the muscle memory they have created and i will not say names but i i have lately this situation that i was watching really a fake reality but so so well done that i have to keep it in very good you know no because the you we at the end we also respect the the efforts no of the yeah i think this this is really well said like you have to respect that and then and sometimes as a judge some some judge would be thinking that they're doing something very good by giving some extra you know but actually it's ultimately a very very unfair to everybody including the person that gets the the present um i i i i think so i think if we want to re if we want to respect what we are doing it's so dangerous when you think this idea no giving extra points to make people happy yeah it's uh it's so risky it's because if especially for people sometimes i have this complaining for people that can achieve the excellent it's something i don't understand but why do you are like this in this level of

1:42:33

upset but because if we respect this idea you are the one that can get it in the excellent you just change the things take the the information i was humbling and offering you in in the judging and and then you can be excellent right and i'm very far away from the rest if i give if we give three points for the people so they are pleasing the in in this then we don't have room enough it's is something i don't understand i think if as as far as we we face and we try to see everything no though if i see pressure thank you i didn't know that it was pressure but i i saw the dog was in discomfort yes maybe in the seat and then see oh and the dog is oh but very fast yeah but the dog was not no not feeling well i think that come on yes no yes you know or getting the dumbbell really fast but taking five steps more forward instead of coming back and yeah so that's a whole different but but but we have i really believe we have people that can achieve it and for me it's a little bit shocking even these people that can achieve it sometimes are the one that blame because they want more extra points but if if i give you the extra point and i give to everybody then i i am risking to be much more unfair because then when you come with a really 97 or 98 i cannot give you 100 and yeah yeah that that's that's such a you know i mean everybody in theory understands that but but then i i i am i am having this feeling that this this nice example i think people want to live in the american wrestling federation right right that in the real utility dog no but then you have like i think our moral duty our moral duty is uh at the alice is that we are in in our dog our program is uh is uh as said in the rules it's a utility program no we we must see the reality and what we are watching yeah there has to be some consistency and there here i i i i mean we we kind of should wrap it up but i i don't know like with the judging that there is we we have problems we we have problems with judging and forget about okay there is the problem of understanding everything that we've said so far but then there is a whole other set of really problematic judging where a dog i don't know in whatever being tracking obedience protection but but it makes a mistake and the mistake is a serious mistake maybe it's a faulty maybe it's sufficient or insufficient and whatever but then everything else goes well and the judge really likes the dog and because he really likes the dog and you it assumes that well if we didn't make the mistake it's excellent so therefore

1:46:23

today is excellent points when that happens and that happens very often that you know i think destroys the the reputation and the the reputability and and even the competitors are looking at each other and and it becomes a problem because well let's say i'm that person that got this gift what do i say no no i don't deserve it right you cannot say that it's such a complicated situation but it's so easy to be avoided like that's that's what is frustrating that it's like that's a simple rule like that's just pure mathematics you cannot no matter how much you like or not you know yeah but then the the thing we are facing also sometimes we are blaming i consider myself uh we are blaming the judges uh but we are not professionals we are matters you you want me to be professional okay pay me ten thousand dollars i become professional you know it's we are we are demanding a level of concentration intensity i you know we've been talking about this sometimes i really like oh no no yeah yeah yeah oh absolutely no uh yeah yeah yeah there's no question like uh i mean human mind cannot i mean that that's understandable we're not talking about some no no i i i i don't agree because with training you that that portion of variability comes even lower you know because it's a mental training no it's also for me one of the challenging parts no you have to be focused and concentrated and yeah you know and you have to have a you have to educate your mind for judging and for me something nice and interesting but uh but it's great for sure not for everybody and and it's is something that we do not even for free yes with expenses we put our time our money in that so and and we are demanded to be super professionals okay let me be professional i would love to hey no problem but hey no nobody no no we are not considering we are making yeah sometimes in like in the education of the judges uh and even the training of the judges if we want to create an sport we have to do deeply and narrowly so you know it's uh for for me we we have this this match between the number of uh of judges but also the pressure we put in the judging you know right but if we if we want to go like in the professional way to to really then have our group of professional judges yeah maybe maybe you can blame maybe but maybe it's not a bad idea when you think of of of the the importance of it you know maybe it's not a bad idea however you know what i'm saying we are we are in this interesting moment that we can face and discuss all of this if we yeah if our dog is

1:50:09

if we really do the the good part because we can this we are in this moment we can disappear or we should show evolve yeah so if we make an evolution we must make an evolution in the systematic and in the analysis to translate qualifications into points and it's something we can face in the professionality of the judging in the professionality of the helpers and in the professionality of the track layers you know and because players man that's a whole other thing with the track layers yeah yeah yeah yeah but you know it's it's so important you know and and it's uh it can make such a big difference the difference interesting sport we have very very you know i i guess also also what makes it interesting is all these complications and and factors that all have to you know they all play a role it's crazy at the beginning of the of the conversation i told you like marathon swimming is just a giant game compared to life especially like for me that i do igp really is very far in the south very difficult conditions like for tracking for us it's a nightmare uh for finding fields no where you can do the training is it's a nightmare because i said we are not sport so you cannot go and say hey you you have to borrow me the place no no you cannot come into a football field with dogs because they're dirty animals what yeah so but you're still better than like like austria right i mean as far as the image of the sport and and well i actually uh austria was very unlucky i think with the government but we have yeah this type of government in spain that could happen to us that's the the sad thing is we are so weak we are so exposed to this uh this this not really one one uh political camp okay i'm going to make myself famous i'm going to say oh to have doggies for biting people is so bad yeah it's forbidden sometimes what it's like if you go to to the carat and say no no karate make your kids aggressive no okay i forbid karate okay nice how is that david how is it with the like the police dogs are they allowed to bite or like what are the regulations with the police dogs in spain in spain is very strict is we have this law that guarantee more the rights of the bad people or the yeah than they really the protect actually so yeah it's if if a dog really have uh really use the the power then you have a problem you have a problem for sure in spain yeah what about uh like like like like the police i well my family comes all my family are policemen so they even as policemen today you you need oh yeah yeah so complex so with the dog is really really difficult but this

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is not now in some other parts of europe they they i know they they can use it and and they need it and it's a very nice right right between two no between i can use the a little bit but the the dog is between the gun and the physical confrontation no yeah yeah yeah yeah sometimes saves a lot of problems but you need to be able to use them without without a question but it is it's um really difficult in all these uh in all these situations so yeah that that's why also like for backing up uh the our purpose now that we are uh selecting really utility dogs and we we are more weak to explain because even the police you know no you don't need dogs for biting people or no yeah any source that can protect my my family in some moments but it doesn't look like we have that right anymore right but that's that's really worrying actually but yeah yeah or that's another thing no no the right this situation that we we must really see what we if not we are doing just like a sort of agility of program or or fake unfortunately yeah that looks like but it's not and the problem is sometimes we are selling that no you say no no the dog is not really biting a human is just faking and she goes for the sleep and we are taking that analogy that way for explaining what we are doing and i think it's wrong it is wrong it is wrong it's a it's a good attempt to try to well you know safe save but it's not the right one i i i think we should go through honesty you know yeah we yeah why do we need the stick here because we want to see dog that are physically resilient physically not only psychological resilience no so because in the real situations if you have a dog that is going uh like in the environment people that is saving somebody from a collapsed building you are going to have to come down with a dog that maybe is going to feel fear is going to be discomfort and some some objects can fall down on the dog and you want to have a dog that is able to overcome that situation and what we do we can check that possibility through the stick heat but we have yeah we haven't explained this this need and this collect this this connection no between the the both parts and it can be taken even it can be taken even a step further we can like i can justify you know if i have enough time even the conversation about improving training methods when you have a stick hit you're challenging and you're twitching the dog into high arousal some aggression possibly which can lead to disobedience so the art of getting obedience without breaking the dog getting control over a dog that really

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doesn't want to do the obedience that skill directly can be applied into pet training when you have a dog that is very aggressive or whatever you you're really like like the the training in the sport it's almost like you're you're that's where you're that's where you get the knowledge and and understand how you can control behavior of dog a pet dog that is really not willing to comply but you gain control without breaking the spirit or torture or abuse the dog and do it intelligently yeah yeah yeah but that's that's really amazing no when we go deep in what we do in our sport this really it complies all this situation we we really have dogs that are able to and we want the whole picture not a dog that uh released by training but also released by social connection relief they don't have this kidnap of emotion that block the mindset yeah yes that's that's what really we check in in our program you know and yes it's amazing how it's a beautiful how complex minds uh how complex mindset a dog that makes uh igp that is able to do this contract that is thing even be social but still being very strong but we search is very amazing that's why yes if we go deeper of course we are in a moment of change and in this moment of change every time you start a moment of change the the sometimes the points come lower but we are with this sort of rules clearly from 19 uh 20 uh 2019 no is uh when a little bit more evolution in this is coming no we have some years in this idea and i think we are seeing nice evolution but still we are on the way i hope so we'll be it will be very interesting to hear hopefully people uh um you know start some conversation because of this conversation and maybe some comments all over the place and and we get to talk about it more and more because we should um i know it's late there what time is it you're you're already no it's gotta be i mean for spanish people you guys already it's time now to go out and have dinner right yes the classic mediterranean style of living well actually it's a surviving mode because in the middle hours you can do nothing when you are 42 degrees outside yeah you have to stop and if you want to enjoy social life and then you start eating now at 10 at night yeah but it's uh like a normal no in restaurants sometimes you they start working now and then you sometimes you you come 12 at night and you still can eat and yeah that's not so not so common no and also in malaga is it's more like that because we are just in the like very turistic area also yeah yeah yeah what is

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cool it's always because when you it's not like just young people you see families and the kids and everybody is like out and it's very cool yeah yeah well is uh yeah i said the climate helps actually no right you have a raining or cold it doesn't invite you so much no but we have to change our timetables because in the middle hours now especially these summers are we we have a very very hard summer right until now so yeah for dog yeah very difficult because for tracking like from may i we it's you really risk the heart of your dog yeah yeah yeah the same in flor in florida but yeah cool dave that was a good one thank you i know we we kind of tried to make it a few few times and it's a little a little bit of a schedule and whatever but it's always always nice to talk about dogs and and and sometimes not dog things like just what we did because life is not all dogs we i mean even if we try very hard we're always gonna get back to talking dogs but it's always nice to you know yeah well well actually sometimes for another sports you can have even lesson for our sports no so yeah it's true sometimes a good investment no but yeah yeah and yeah thank you for thank you for calling really a pleasure always talking to you and really feel thank you maybe well not maybe we actually well hopefully i don't know what your schedule is gonna be but we you know we're going to spain for the for the fci so hopefully maybe maybe you're free and i don't know how far it is from you we're probably quite far actually right one thousand kilometers so jesus yeah that's that's well who knows but yeah well our our plan is to go for sure for sure cool cool all right david thank you my friend thank you so much so so you you The Video Video