에피소드 53: Dylan Jones

the forest anyway give us give us a little uh um kind of about about yourself yeah i mean my my dog training beginning and up until now is pretty straightforward i think i've been it's been about six and a half seven years i've been training dogs now in the pet training world i got my start just randomly i had nothing going on i was working a dead-end job and i just sent a resume to this company that you know the usual suspects boot camp two-week board and train type thing but at the time i literally don't know i've never taught a dog his name before and they just on a whim took me on and um it took me about a month or two before i realized that like i really hope this is not dog training like it has to get better than this maybe i'm just bad and i mean i was of course man that's kind of crazy sorry to interrupt but like no out of out of nowhere all of a sudden i am just gonna be a dog trainer and and let me just see if i can get a job and learn the craft i mean i i worked at an amazon warehouse in security for like a year which was just miserable and then i ended up being in management at a ups warehouse and that was even more terrible i was like dude i'm just gonna i i like dogs like who doesn't like dogs and it ended up working out great um you know i met some really good people i was with that company for about three years and i was very fortunate to have a boss that really just didn't care what kind of experimentation i did with methods as long as the dogs learned what they needed to learn so i went on sort of like a three-year internet scouring every resource i could find watching every video i could find and i ran basically the entire all the way from super heavy simultaneous backwards conditioning electric collar stuff to very very force-free food and clickers and i kind of ran the whole as far as i as far as i know i went from one end to the other i love it and it i i kind of think like my like my classmate moritz how twc is his start in dog training in some ways i'm jealous but in other ways i'm like i kind of i like that i had to go through that type of experience because like you know how it is when a dog dog owner comes to you we're usually not the first trainer so because i spent years doing like the conventional things i kind of can already tell within a few minutes what the dog has been trained with you know what i mean i could like i'm like i know why he's looking at you like that i know why he's compulsively wincing when you move your hand i know why he's staring at your pocket i'm like i like i've seen all of this for years and like i said i

was with them for three three and a half years and i started off on my own and it was maybe another year kind of doing my own thing that i applied to twc so when you started on your own man this is like i mean you you really like i i don't even remember how i what were exactly my steps but this is not about me so i'm not going to even think about it but typically jumping into being in temp i can't even say the word but to to work for yourself you know most people are very scared to do that yeah yeah well it was it was it was interesting because at the time like i knew i was still small fish or or whatever but i'm just training pet dogs for general obedience and that you know there is something that goes into that but the methods that i was taught by this company were so atrocious that just by messing around and experimenting with things i got much better like very quickly like very very very quickly so i didn't really have any intention of doing anything super challenging i was like i can teach dogs to come when called and you know sit at a crosswalk and kind of not being annoying in the house like those are things that i could i can accomplish and i know now i can do them much better hopefully but um at the time i was i was pretty confident naive probably but but definitely confident yeah i think the confidence is like if you don't have the confidence i mean eventually even even if it's just confidence without anything to back it up to begin with yeah confidence is super important the thing where it gets kind of rough i had a lot of times where i mean it's it's dog training there's a lot of variables dogs are different there are dogs even if you just go in saying i'm going to do obedience you get dogs with weird quirks and little behaviors that are kind of strange i just didn't have anyone to call and be like hey man have you ever seen this before so i'm just sort of like in the moment i'm looking at this dog i'm like i really hope you don't try to rip my throat out and like like i just i just didn't didn't know so it really was just like i'm gonna go bash my head off the wall and try to get as good as i can and when it comes to obedience and stuff pretty much you you would take at that time anything or you were a little more picky because you well i guess you were confident so were you taking anything that comes along or what how did that go well i had one punishment event uh one punishment event where i was like i can't this is not a thing that you just do so i probably spent a year just doing general obedience and i got a call from this lady that had this

pit bull shelter mutt something you know the the typical suspects and she had mentioned like he's he's biting people and i don't know what to do and that's why it really occurred to me i'm like hey i feel like i'm okay at this obedience stuff what if i start taking steps towards telling yourself somewhere yeah and and i really got obsessed with the notion and like you can talk to dog owners they'll tell you like i've had maybe i owned a dog that i wish i had someone back then that could have helped but we just didn't have any resources so i was like what if i could be that guy like what if i can just figure this out again i have no help i don't have a mentor and um partly that's my fault hubris but i took this lady up i was like all right yeah i'm gonna go do loose leash healing and you know i'm gonna reward him with food for not being an asshole and just see what happens and this dog like blew up on me he had a full bite on the inside of my thigh and i'm just wearing like street clothes of course i had no idea what protective gear was and um i i left that scenario and i was like okay not so much out of self-preservation though that does matter i know i need to do something different to be able to help dogs like that this is not a problem that you can just smash because i kind of i naturally get into that mindset where i'm like i'm looking at a problem like i don't need anybody like leave me alone i'll figure it out and this is just too complicated and too risky a business to do that in you know what i mean yeah it can it can go sideways for sure so at that point i had been watching videos j jack larry crone those those types of guys and i went to a couple of their seminars this is probably another six months after that of me kind of being punished back into the obedience world but jay and larry they told me they were like hey at the first seminar i went to they were talking about chasing catch video and at the time i had a really really car reactive cattle dog who's now actually my dog but i had her scheduled and i was like it sounds like she might want to chase something and the things that they're talking about like with fulfillment and everything these are things that just i had been talking with with and working with trainers for years and literally the word fulfillment never existed like the concept of not even just like rewards but like lifestyle like is your dog happy not happy in the way that you think is happy which again the dog's perception is reality so it doesn't matter if you're giving him food if he's

fucking miserable it just doesn't he's not happy so i was like okay i'll check out that video and i watched that video and of course like just playing ball with a dog is probably not enough to stop a serious serious issue but it puts such a significant dent in this issue like to the point where i've got her off leash in a month just like playing ball with cars driving by i'm like this is absolutely insane so that sort of started my my journey into your material i got possession games and i think maybe the puppy walking video and so did you go to did you go to one of their workshops that they make together or or how did you i was at i was at a solo larry workshop in orlando and actually that's the first time i ever saw you you walked in oh you walked in with the italia you were wearing sunglasses and you went into the back and started making tacos oh wow that's so funny that's so funny i okay i know which one that is because that's the only time i i went to see larry and and it was just because he was close and and um we we just had to i don't know we had to kind of get together and say hello and and you know i i remember exactly that time wow that's very you came in you came in with the shades flip-flops and you started eating tacos and i was like i think that's the chasing catch guy it's like holy shit um so i i went to i went to one of the team up seminars workshops that they do so it was larry and jay and it was really jay was like hey like if you have the time and the money just go to the school if you don't have the money yet save it and go to the school i was like all right because i had seen at this point i had seen enough because i had been studying those videos and that sort of leads me up to where i am now you know past certification all that the expert program and yeah it's been fun man jay went through a lot of crazy stuff this last year crazy crazy crazy stuff yeah he called me out of nowhere um last last week because there was the malinois nationals he's like i'm in the area let's have dinner i'm like of course and then i'm like oh shit we i'm i'm like in a competition and and then we tried to make it happen and there was a brief opportunity that we could have made it happen but then both of us had to kind of to to meet halfway we had to drive a little more than an hour each and and it just didn't work out but um yeah very very interesting and i i i want to go back to this because like i i don't know like a lot of people are very scared to take the opportunity to to have a business on their own regardless what it is i mean it can be a

tire shop or whatever and especially when you have a family and we have kids and everything i mean there there is this risk but unless you take the risk you never get to you know like i i talk sometime lately with my daughter a lot about this and it's like well you try and if it doesn't work then it didn't work so what what did you really lose yeah like what did you really lose but but but there is this thing and especially europeans are way different like i think people here in the states it's a little bit more having your own business it's it's not as scary as for somebody in europe anywhere in europe they love to work in a big company being the secretary or being whatever like in whatever the big company and think that they are uh very secure um but so you you really a couple what was your backup like how how did you so so a couple things to speak to the the cultural differences i think that just baked into the cake for americans risk has like a romantic ideal to it you know it's like i'm just gonna screw it just like let it all fly if it happens it happens if it doesn't again like you said it's like what was really the big penalty maybe i wasted some time and some money it's not the end of the world like people get sick and die i can fail a business like it's not the end of the world when it comes to what really emboldened me aside from the fact that again i was getting like okay results i'm looking back at it and it's like obviously i've gotten much better but i was kind of doing the job the thing is and this is going to sound mean mean i was looking at my competition around me and i'm like i'm like dude these guys have been training dogs for like two three decades and i'm already competing with them like i'm just going to keep trying like i'm going to try as hard as i physically can to keep getting better this has i have to be able to have a seat at the table here and especially i i mean i had an unfair advantage i was learning how to play with dogs which is just unfair i'm constantly telling people if you just learn how to play with dogs you will be better than like 80 of the pet trainers in the world just immediately if you can do that so i'm messing around with possession games and chase and catch and i'm watching the dogs really come alive and again like my background was very suppressive electric collar stuff like low stim conditioning the dog is always in command structure structure structure so to me the change was so drastic it wasn't like this incremental attitude change it was like the lights came on in the dogs

like just bang it's like literally just because i'm playing with them and i'm experimenting this is the one thing that i kind of stumbled upon on my own which i am kind of proud of is like there was a point i asked i was like why are all these dogs in command 24 7 and i know that seems obvious but there's so much indoctrination involved with like going to learn training from a company and it's cookie cutter formulaic i was told the first day i was at their headquarters if i was seen rewarding a dog i'd be fired so like i was very much groomed to be just you know robot dog training soldier machine with no expression no emotion no nothing so when i saw that like wait okay training and playing can be the same they can help each other too but also i don't have to be on top of this dog 24 hours a day i can just like let him sniff and the dogs just got so much better so fast i think i took that as a sign too like let's just go for it like see what happens you know what i mean yeah it's crazy i mean when you talk about play and how a lot of people actually now now it's becoming a little bit thank thank god right a little bit more you know even if it even if it's not quite there people are experimenting and implementing a little bit more but i mean what what better way to to set the tone to to get to accomplish some report right right and when you accomplish that report then you have the the then you can build the trust i mean if your report is bad there is no trust so end of the game right when you have the trust now you have motivation because you have report and you have trust and now you figure it out right now now it's like okay how we can cooperate how we can make that happen for sure and that's in essence that what it is it's hard it's hard sometimes to articulate to a dog owner if i'm talking to another trainer like what's missing and the the moment that you can see the tether made between you and the dog and you're like we can do anything right like we can like this dog would follow me into hell right now and would just not care just like god don'ts my guy like it that's that's a huge deal regardless of what you're doing it could just be basic obedience or whatever but especially when you go into the realm of dealing with intense reactivity and aggression and severe behavioral issues this is now like this is god like yes this is the essence yeah you really can't go anywhere without it and trying to jump the line there and skip that makes anything you do after corrupted like there's just no like you might as well quit you know there's nowhere to go

and that's that's where i spend that's where i spend most of my time now i just don't i don't take basic obedience clients anymore like there's nothing wrong with that i think there's a lot of fun to be had with nice dogs teaching them nice things but um i almost exclusively have been taking aggression cases for about a year now and you really just it's a non-starter it's like you don't have gas in the tank if you don't get that link with the dog you're really just screwed yeah especially especially when you when you go into as you say the the more you know special special needs dogs then then you really have to they have to trust you and and and how do you go about trust do you go by suppression do you go only by being nice or do you find the middle ground right right right well i i think i think a lot of what training without conflict is to me is finding ways to interpret it and adapt it in a way that a way that occurs to me is almost common sense so i get a lot of trainers that they'll message me and they'll be like hey can i run some ideas by you i have a a weird case do you have time for a phone call and i i love doing that whether it's people in the school or out of the school but especially out of the school because i like to see what everyone's doing right and i'll i'll have a call and these are not bad people by the way i i i go off a lot about how bad the standards are in pet dog training but i don't think it's full of bad actors i think people genuinely are trying to do their best but the things that i hear i think you and i would consider to be insane or like any graduates would consider to be just like crazy like what are you doing so there will be a call like i had this guy he's telling me i've got this um he's a really nice dude really really nice dude he owns a a company training dogs he's been training dogs for 13 years whatever it is and he's like i've got this this shelter pit bull that nipped someone in the house and now he's with me and i just can't i can't get him to trust me he just goes off on me he stares at me he won't take his eyes off me he flinches when i'm around and i'm like okay how long have you had him well i've had him for four days i'm like okay so i i wanted to tell him some dogs take longer than four days to get comfortable but just i asked what's the first thing that you did with him what's the first thing like well mom put him into the crate and i came back in a few minutes later he went at me so we had to deal with it i'm like all right what is dealing with it look like like well i had the bite suit on i was able to like

get an e-collar on him fast with a bungee and put a slip collar on him and we just you know i we had it out and we dealt with it and then we went outside i'm like okay how how long like what did that look like and how long was that moment it's like probably like three minutes i'm like dude so this dog who has some sort of anti-social notion he got dropped off in a new environment he is looking for his prophecy to be fulfilled he wants reasons to not like you because that's his perception of humans and the first thing you guys do is warfare yeah he's like well i'm holding the continuous button down for 15 second intervals i'm jacking the number up and i'm like dude like how you just affirmed everything every false ideal about mankind that he has had that's caused him to bite you just put concrete on it like you just submit it's just where do you even go from there like you you're just you're screwed that's not even violating the trust it's like you didn't even attempt to build it you know what i'm saying and it's just i think that when i get people asking me like what are you doing with these dogs i have a hard time explaining this but i'm like dude i i have to let him know like you would put it making your intentions clear it's just i have to let him know that i'm not conspiring to beat the hell out of him you know what i mean like you just that's a non-starter you know and you it's it's crazy how many people will tell me things like that and um it's it's not an exception it's like but you're right it's not because of ill intentions for like like the the ones that have the those kind of there is some that they are definitely sick people out there that i mean we've seen plenty of videos of people doing like really mean stuff for no reason like that like you can really tell that there is it goes like the training it's not about training it's just very personal and it's very emotional and and very very bad um but these are i think these are really rare cases most most of them are the as you describe but they're trying to do the best they can and and for some reason you either your nature is like well let's just suppress it and if we suppress it kind of universally then we've done our job right right it's a very it's a very like hammer nail thought process like the nail went into the board therefore it's over it's like okay but the board is rotted like what how can we be happy with that and i think it is in like a natural state for many of us to just want to like fix the problem the simplest most obvious way but i think there's also this really

weird moral perversion around dog training where it's almost been like a mass brainwashing i don't know if it's a deliberate you know the illuminati of dog they're trying to or if it's just society itself but i get these weird scenarios too where people will be like well dylan how like how did you get that dog in the crate and i'm like well i mean i just put a leash on him and i just kind of moved him into the crate non-confrontationally and this guy this one dude again nice guy he's like well i would never put that much pressure on a dog like that early in the program so what i do is i've got a baseball field near my house i restrict the dog's water and then i run him to the bleachers and i make him run up and down the bleachers until he's really tired and he hasn't had water in like a day and then i put a water bowl in the back of the crate and then he goes into the crate i'm like i'm like dude so your your moral your moral compass just hit a hard line at me going hey dude go in the crate but then we've got water deprivation forced marching it's like well obviously this is just the humane way it's just it's and again i don't i don't think maybe as he was explaining it he was kind of getting how weird this was but i see a lot of that i see a lot of that it's really strange yeah this that's like the i mean i know that podcast just came out with with steward and stephanie and michael ellison and we were talking about the the avsab training statement really we just kind of broke it down in two liners and and talked about it and and and you know it's like which part is the ethical part and when um stephanie had a really good one and i have and i have to watch it myself because once i do the podcast i kind of am done but i know that a lot just went in and out so i i love listening to it afterwards at some point not right away so i have to do that again but what like like especially the the force free people when they look at is it ethical and it's this snippet it's this still shot at the moment of the process and that's the worst time to make a decision if i mean is it ethical eventually for that dog as we were talking with uh jim to sit back in the behavior part of the shelter and nobody can take him out simply because it's not allowed to wear a prone collar which part is the ethical part is very tricky it's actually not tricky when you when you start to think long term um but but these are interesting ones with i mean i guess in a very strange way one can appreciate somebody just trying to think outside the box and experiment and play around with certain things but

yeah some some of them really are like well there's always that question why right yeah well and and why why does one bother you and the other does not and unfortunately i think there are two really unfortunate things actually there's probably a host of unfortunate things but the the worst thing is that as passionate as we are they are the same if not more about being right so like we're in the same movie theater watching two different screens like it's just two separate realities i think that we cannot reconcile the differences ultimately like we just have different notions about priorities and dog welfare like you're saying they will take a snapshot of body language or something which just drives me insane there's an entire content machine on the internet of trainers doing dog body language analysis of dogs that they've never met totally out of context clips i mean there are some that are obvious you know like i'm not saying that that it's not useful to talk about these things but you you really can take just a screenshot of a dog in a training session and it could look really bad and ultimately that screenshot is not indicative of the session which may have contributed to saving the dog's life you know what i'm saying people getting stuck on the tail being tucked or a dog you know putting his head down it's like like why why why does no one ask where the dog is now that's a very obvious question to me like what what happened because if i'm going to use an aversive consequence punishment however you want to call it my motivation is i think this is going to help you either i'm really sure or you're in a really rough spot and i need to try to get you out of this hell that you're in if i thought it wasn't going to help and i was still doing it then i'm a sadist like i'm a lunatic like the people you're mentioning where there's something unhinged going on so i think that there's there's this thought also too that from people that primarily or exclusively use positive reinforcement because they are sort of a a one note band if they see a trainer using an aversive well it's like well obviously they must just do this all day long right yeah like this this is just their one their one thing it's like guys you you took a three second clip so like i can give you an example too like a recent example sometimes bad body language is actually a good sign so i had a dog go home from a boarding train and it was a huge goal for the client to be able to have him around their family on thanksgiving just totally

out of the question they're just like he had been to a really famous board and train program thousands of dollars dog came back worse sort of aggressive more just like an explosive reactivity he just won't stop screaming charging people whatever triggered by movement all that this little rat terrier mutt really nice dog i love this dog but the clients send me videos they sent me videos from thanksgiving and it was just it was amazing but there was one clip that i watched that was just like gold to me that i know if you just plucked a random dog trainer and had them watch this they'd be like what happened to this dog like is he about to kill somebody so there's a moment again thinking about the dog's perception where he's standing in the middle of the kitchen there's dogs around he used to get into dog fights constantly people are walking around and he looks up at his owner and is like unsure it's not because he's waiting to get cracked with the e-collar it's because mom i've never been here before without losing my shit so like the bad body language which was five seconds was actually a sign that he's sort of he's trying to change and not differently yeah yeah it's like i've never i've never gone to the gym without punching someone in the head and now i'm standing at the gym and i'm like what do we do now and then someone comes over and pets him he's like oh okay and that realization which started with him looking stressed and awkward that's like the biggest moment that's way bigger than anything that i did with him because he realized it without human tampering no one had to reinforce the behavior or send him away it's just he was there and he was like i'm going to try something different because i don't feel the same and then it it paid off you know like so it's it's really easy to make a dog look bad but i just i want to know what was the result ultimately that to me is the the biggest thing like where is the dog right now like is he playing with other dogs and meeting up with friends in their backyard and having a good time then yeah i i do think it's a worthy trade that the dog yipped when i popped his collar one time like i think that's a clear obvious trade i i don't understand the moral confusion you know yeah but it's very rarely um i guess it's very hard to to keep track of like that's that's one thing that you know dog sports you can do that with there is there is some some statistics some scores are kept and and in the pet dog training world that that's very actually it's not even it's not happening and it's i don't see how it can really happen um but

because you know like what i'm thinking is somebody can say well i've had my business for 30 years right i wouldn't be able to have a business for 30 years if i wasn't good at it right or i've trained so many dogs and whatever number it's thrown and and um it is unfortunate but i don't think there is any way around that um no so in the pet dog world you're you're right like the the sports that is a measurable point scale statistic you can point at placings winnings your scores and you you cannot get better than an objective mathematical result the closest thing that we have in pet training in my opinion and it pales in comparison but it's the only thing i can think of is video documented evidence so i i noticed especially coming out of graduating twc i'm like i'm looking around at the the online space and i'm seeing there's a lot of conversations about pet training there's a lot of conversations about behavior and aggression and reactivity has anyone ever actually just shown a dog like just just show me dogs like again this is not as good as saying i scored a 98 but no no you're right you're very right and this is this is actually why people like to to go at your social media because that's exactly what you're doing i show everything and there is absolutely everything and and the dog owners and the trainers are kind of hungry for this yeah nobody dares to and you know when something gets kind of edited and you pick the best version of whatever like you it's very difficult to to convince somebody that that's really what's happening but but when it's organic people like to see that so so you're you're actually right about that the pet the pet world has been almost gate kept and run by trainers that go out and buy a dutch shepherd to use as their demo dog and they take videos of them healing in an empty parking lot and they're like well look i can do it it's like guys like no one gives a shit about that you know what this is like that's it's a total it's it's all smoke and mirrors hide the ball just like you're saying too the the video editing is so deceptive and again i i worked in that area where we were taught how to make the dog look better and orchestrated and prepare the dog to go through this this section with distractions so that he looks better on camera it's all false it's all false so i um i just genuinely just show hey here's the dog like back home or the first week with me here's some of the things that we're doing and then check in in like a month six months a year and i'll let you know

what's going on because like that's that's the only thing that matters really it's the only thing that matters you know jim had a super idea on that podcast i i i'm sure you listen to it you know because we did touch upon this with the uh the demo dog of the trainer and typically it's the shepherd or a malina or whatever and and he was like take a dog from the shelter oh 100 take it from the shelter make something good and it goes from every angle you look at it it's a good thing and it speaks so much louder of your skill of who you are as a trainer who you are as a person um um like like that that was just so so brilliant but so every once in a while i have this every once in a while some because you know like we breed the malina so somebody would be well i i'm i need a i'm getting a puppy and it's gonna be my demo dog it's not that i'm against that but it just doesn't it's like man like my demo dog it's strange it just doesn't i don't know it's like it's like showing up to your first basketball practice with 300 sneakers it's like dude you've you've never even you've never been here before like this isn't real like come on and and when you hit that point of the conversation with jim too it made me think about the practical exam so i had fully intended once i was given the directions i was like i'm gonna go get whatever i normally see which is typically you know shelter pitbull mutts and i'm gonna go maybe it'll be a low motivation dog and i'll really have to try to get juice out of this thing or it'll be the opposite it'll be a totally haywire dog and i'll be able to show a representation of what i deal with and it just so happens i had this young highly motivated german shepherd and just like again trains herself and i'm like i can't i have to submit this because i think i might pass but this isn't what i normally am dealing with like i felt gross i felt like i i cheated i was like this is like give me like a bernadoodle or something or something weird and like let me get him to flip into heel for my test i i just didn't i couldn't pass up the nice dog but that's again you're you're right like you you should try dealing with weird dogs there's a hunger for it too and on the demo dog thing i i also get people i'm the last person on earth you should ask for business advice but i'll get people that'll ask me like hey like what do you think about social media videos how do i get more attention i'm like well like i go on your page and it's videos again of your of your shepherd like playing ball with you and flipping into heel you know what you don't see

videos of an off-leash saint bernard doing just beautiful obedience just really nice you people want to see their favorite pet breed doing cool things and doing nice functional things and just it's a space that's just sitting there that no one touches and i don't really know why you know it's the competition i mean it's just social media it's a serious competition you know it really is a serious competition but but you're right there is a there is definitely a different way and especially now because everything becomes so i mean it doesn't matter which social media or you open which dog trainer chances are you're going to see very much a variation of the same thing every time so so the moment you showed that sam bernard it just just as a different visual it's already an attention grab instant it's it's this is free if you know how to train dogs this is free show a video of you sending a chihuahua to a target like 50 yards away bang and hashtag chihuahua moms and it goes off like everyone we've all seen german shepherds guys you know what i mean and i love the german shepherd but like you're saying you you flip through i'm sure your discover page is all training dog training too and it's just male shepherd male shepherd male male male it's like it catches your attention when you see like an excel bully or a lab because it's just it's become almost like off breed for some reason it's kind of weird you know what do you like more the the interacting with the dog or interacting with the owners i i guess before you you start i i i guess i i where where i'm going with this is a lot of times trainers even though they say they love to do the dog stuff they actually really want to get approval from the owner that they are very good dog trainers and they go in this insane analogies like one after another after another yeah to where it's just begging the owner to say yes you're right yes you make so much sense as you're right and and ultimately it kind of just tells the whole interaction between the client and the trainer about the dog yeah yeah it's um i think it's similar to what we were talking about earlier with intentions and rapport building it's the same with the dogs and the clients and in a lot of ways so trainers that act that way i i think it's it's obvious to many dog owners that this guy's trying to sell me on something or he's like this is just not this isn't educational this is about him so dealing with the client i i treat it as an art form itself and i'm always trying to get better at it like i am with the dogs in terms of what i like better i think before

when i didn't work for myself it would have been easily the dogs because i'm giving i'm getting given clients like i'm just getting random people and nowadays i can be very selective about who i work with which is one of the things that's made me love dog training again it's just that sometimes i'll get people asking like they're talking about how do you motivate your clients it's like i just don't i don't take on clients that need to be motivated you know what i mean and especially in the field that i i'm trying to carve out a space in with behavioral cases the people are like locked in a lot of times desperate they're like dude i didn't even know there was a chance we could do this i'm just like tell me what to do and i'll do it and in that in that event if you have that with the client you can really treat them almost like your friends like we have a good time and it's it's really enjoyable if you're doing a private lesson with a guy that's like checking his watch and chasing his kids around and taking i know cell phone calls it just like kills it used to kill me dude like i i would be so pissed off so it's it's close for me i don't really want to fence at this so i am ultimately going to pick the dogs but i do truly love working with good people like i i think that that is i'm very privileged to be able to be this picky and take on cool clients you know the reason why i i pick the dogs is because they're and i've been thinking about this a lot lately in a board and train with an aggressive dog or a dog that doesn't like people or whatever i'm looking for like three moments that are like the peak of dog training for me the breakthroughs yes right the first one is when i come down to his crate and he's wagging his tail at me i'm like love that there he is there's a dog right we're maybe not at square one but we're we've got back out of the negative we're at square zero there's the moment when a dog has never been given true freedom off leash where like i just actually got this on on tape with my board and train right now where like people would call it a check-in oh look the dog's checking in with you you should positively reinforce that no dude she was looking at me going like hey is this okay like can i go because he had never been off leash like this before and then i'm like dude get out of here don't look at me i don't want you looking at me forget about me seeing them let that go and take that step is huge and then finally i would say getting a dog that has convinced himself that he does not want to interact with people

that not only do i have to settle for being i don't have to settle for being neutral i can actually like enjoy this once i see that happen i know that the dog can be saved and that's the biggest like like i love i love that moment so it's usually there's a few of those over the course of a couple months program or something and that's what i'm always chasing those you know yeah that's very nicely put like i i i mean when you put it this way i have to agree with you that the the dog side is probably way more rewarding you know what it gets upsetting often in my mind is when um when a trainer will say well everything fell apart because they weren't able to follow my guidance my instructions my you know whatever the protocols were yeah and and and and as a trainer you never i mean you gotta think that you have to tailor that whatever that protocol is if if the owner cannot follow it whose problem is it really right yeah yeah yeah there there's there's two hoping mechanism convenient parachute strategies that i see people fall on at least in the the pet world that i can speak to one is that my client's lazy and the other one is that the dog is just too genetically gone it's just there's just no hope and by the way i'm not going to make the claim that every dog is genetically pure and every client is perfect like there are definitely situations where you have to look at a dog and go like dude i think he actually just can't he's not conscious like he's actually on out of control and there are clients that you're just like man you just shouldn't own a dog like just shouldn't happen but i i find when i look back it's like you just said i i look back at dogs that i wish i could have a second crack at and i think that in some ways i was trying to convince myself oh the owner just wasn't committed enough to own a dog like that it's like well dude she's a medical student living in an apartment building and i gave her all of this busy work and all of these protocols and all of these techniques and i i know nowadays that i would look at those instructions and go like dude who do you think you're talking to like this is not like she's not a dog trainer what are you doing so absolutely part of the skill set is translating this over into practical reality like why it's very selfish in a way to want to just constantly train the dog the exact way that is your ideal part of the fun for me is sort of like the playground of dealing with weird dogs in suboptimal environments like i know that like this dog probably shouldn't be living in this place but like what can i do to try to like

like being dealt a bad hand and still trying to win is really interesting to me so if you can flip that in your head where it's like yeah i could just complain about the client not being able to run with the dog or or or not having a lot of spare time or if it's reasonable i can try to come up with this really cool sustainable strategy for both parties right and see where it goes you know like there there are times where i feel like you can really just look at it as more of a challenge than oh look at this lazy person that just uh and you know the dog is just too far it's like well you didn't really try a lot of the time in my opinion you know i think you know like uh probably a big difference of and that goes both ways for the the force free and and the balance trainers you know like the but basically the ones will go crazy in differential reinforcement and just kind of try to derail the problem and the other ones will just suppress and of course they will reward good behavior but but it's all based on suppression or differential reinforcement again but very rarely a trainer thinks about how to change perception and create a different habit in the dog that actually is going to stay there and and unless you change perception of how that problem is looked at it's your job is not done right yeah well it's it's unfortunate but there are plenty hundreds if not thousands of behavioral modification programs ten thousand dollar twelve thousand dollar programs that are literally just basic obedience and muzzle conditioning and people just think that's as far as you go well if a dog has has done this he's just destroyed can't be fixed can't be addressed the trainers go into the program already knowing what's going to happen and then simultaneous we'll say simultaneously we'll say train the dog in front of you but you're literally just doing the same cookie cutter sort of like mechanical socially disconnected drills over and over and over again with the thought that well if we just do enough down on place he'll eventually just love dogs but guys that's that's not going to happen actually if you if you think again about the dog's perception you're thinking well i taught him how to down and he's taking food so this is good okay if you stop thinking about yourself and you think about what the dog sees he sees himself on the outskirts of the park confined to a position while everyone around him is having a good time right right going back to the the story that you just told about the the dog that all of a sudden has the freedom he's in the thanksgiving dinner and he's like

now i need to choose how to act right this is a new world right right it's totally new and that doesn't require maintenance so that's so that that's actually why i think people don't think it's real because if you actually get into a conversation you know the whole like oh aggression can't be rehabilitated and this type of notion there are trainers that literally don't think that dogs can emotionally change it's just like like you've said in the course like they're just trapped in operant conditioning it's just i'm constantly reinforcing conditioned behaviors and that's as far as we go it's like dude but like if you stop being so quick with the timing with the electric collar i know that oh 1.2 seconds in my my ergonomic leash popping techniques it's like dude what if you just let the dog breathe for like 10 seconds let him blow up a little bit and then just watch him because there's a strong chance that this dog that you've been hiding and manipulating and controlling he's just gonna go dude why am i doing this right there is like that is at some point in the training and any training regardless of we're talking behavior problems bad obedience high levels for whatever it is but there is a moment where and it's a very beautiful moment where you allow the dog and you actually not just allow it but really really make them become very aware that they do have that choice to play with an experiment and and i think that's when the brain starts to really work and starts to make decisions right but it's not as you said it's not your typical operant conditioning okay there is the behavior and the consequences it's it's not about the consequences that get delivered about reinforcement and punishment it's a different experience altogether yeah and it's like like when a dog realizes the freedom and he comes he has that self-discovery that like i don't need to do that there are other options i've totally removed myself from the equation as the trainer so so my take is that the more that i can be removed from whatever changes happen in the dog's mind the more sustainable the result because i'm not moving in with his family so the dog doing better with people is not conditional on me standing there telling him to heal because he was given the chance to just go hey this is okay whoa at that point i look at the dog and i'm like you're fine like it's it's gonna be fine of course there there is some level of maintenance and there's regression and leftover bad feelings and stuff like that but i i feel like if you're not allowing the dog to have those moments it's very easy to believe

that they can't change because you're just keeping them on the other side of the glass just permanently they're not they never have a chance you know yeah going back to that thing about the the again when somebody would say well aggression cannot be rehabbed you can only just suppress maintain and whatever and it just tells you that you you don't understand that you can change perception just like just like you you you can be uh i mean you can have an enemy and it can change to to a very different outlook at some point depending on the conditions and the interactions you had to go through with that person i mean that that's not even there is no need for research or scientific experiments to to to know that yeah um yeah and the other big one is you know go ahead well i was just thinking that i i remember feeling helpless when i started and i i would just kind of like someone fills out the client survey to the uh to the company i was working for and they lied and the dog is actually extremely reactive right the furthest that i was told to go is just obedience with an electric collar so inevitably what you get is an arms race between you and the dog where he's just on the the edge of explosion knowing that i'm dialing up the e-collar remote and it's sort of like who can go harder who can hold themselves back and you create these jittery dogs that are just they are time bombs right they're right on the edge so i think that there's this because that's so unfortunately common i i do truly believe that people think that that's oh sorry dog's just done like yeah you can't go beyond that you can't beat that that there there's this entire culture of like we just work through it which is sort of like this vague code for you're going to be doing this forever and this is a terminal reactivity issue when you're just really again this is when the owner fails and and the trainer says well they couldn't follow my instruction because this is like right impossible task for for a person to do right right they they because the client didn't want to go out at 6 a.m before anybody else is out with a bag of kibble in their pocket walking in uh you know figure eight circles and running away whenever people walk by like that's just not a sustainable life it's it's not real you know what i mean i wouldn't do that with my own dogs that's miserable so if you don't like if that's where you're at and you think that's as far as it can go that's totally fine i disagree i would just ask why are you selling a behavioral

modification program if you know that it's not real in your opinion you know what i mean like don't don't tell people you're going to modify or rehabilitate anything if you're literally just doing obedience drills and counter conditioning with a clicker like that's and food like that's just not that's false advertisement it is tough man for the especially i don't even know how i went there right now but just being a city dog it's just not easy for most of the dogs if they if they're a very normal outgoing lively excited young dog they don't get enough they don't get even remotely enough of what they need in a city environment by getting the best dog food getting the little mind games or button talking games or like they they want to play they want a rough house they want to they want to like just just there is a need for open space and and somehow the culture starts to focus on well how can we numb them down let's put them on on prozac let's let's you know let's just numb them down kind of like with kids really i mean it's it's really not that different and it it's sad and you know when i came to this and i for for a big part of my life i lived in big cities like i i grew up in a big city and moved to a different country in a big city i i've just had a lot but i kind of forgot that and it was i think a year or a year and a half ago i had to bring i just brought my tarzan my mali with me to bulgaria in the capital and i rented airbnb and here we are she's like let's go out and i'm like there is no out i mean we need to i'm putting you on a flexi and we're walking around and within a week he started to be the city dog he started to enjoy little smells and marking and whatever and and you're like wow that's not what's about and and and i think as trainers we are failing in this way to to educate owners to to really even even with the smallest dog even with the the fattest dog like take it out like right take it out in open space and and let you feel what nature calls it for you know people don't people don't know and these are people that love their dogs like you're reminding me that there were kind of like over the the course of taking the tw course their twc course there were just bombs going off where like we would cover something in the class and then i would see it in real life and i had a house call where this this family has these three gigantic male boxers in this tiny little house and the dogs are starting to fight and they've got this this little pen so the dogs basically live in this hallway this little

kitchen area living room and then they have this small pen outside and i'm talking to the owners in the driveway and then i i asked can we walk around the property a little bit and i look on the the back side of their house and they have a backyard the size of like a golf course and i'm like how often the dogs get out there well they've never been out there like so these are people that love their dogs there was one thing that the guy said he was like i i just don't know why they're they're having so many problems we love them like we make them cupcakes for their birthdays and that disturbed me like i i'm just thinking these are i would almost rather you be villains because like you really are trying you just truly are so disconnected from the reality of what it is to own a dog and i'm thinking about these boxers inside of this sardine can looking through the chain link fence at the woods and the fields and everything and i'm like dude like they're losing their minds either like what happens to an adult man when you put them in solitary confinement exactly that's exactly what i was just to think about yeah he goes mad he goes mad and can you control him of course right ultimately you're gonna win right and and a lot of these clients they i think they do expect that like the dog trainer is going to come over and apply structure right like he's going to come over and teach the dogs to stop being bad and i'm like i go over there i'm like guys hey here's a link to a website with 50 foot lines i've got a few in my car we're just going to take the dogs out in the woods right now and i didn't leave until they promised we're going to take them out every day i was like you're gonna be fine like there's nothing wrong with your dogs they're just truly they are like sensory deprivation science experiments just losing their shit and all of that tension's bottle bottled up and they're just turning on each other over nonsense but and the most frustrating part to this is again from from uh being a very caring person they would go to the vet and the vet would totally just flat out just right away prescribe something to just yeah yeah and that's it sounds as if like it's it's so insane it sounds as if it's bad balance trainer propaganda oh there's this secret epidemic quiet epidemic of dogs being drugged this is this is real i would say one out of three dogs that i get yeah that was my next question oh yeah easily one out of one of three i've actually thought about this quite a bit and the stories i hear about people that have been scammed by veterinary

behaviorists are insane like it sounds like i'm making shit up so where a woman with this giant this really big nice long-haired german shepherd saying oh he's charging people at the door he's he's being crazy we can't have people over anymore and well we had an evaluation the lady came over the dog was crated on the other side of the room the ladies here sits with us in the living room for a half hour the dog didn't stop barking so she said hey like i we could look to try some anti-anxiety meds there there was never a mention of or a question of what's his daily life like does he have anything to look forward to like does he have a reason to live i i've never had a client tell me that a veterinary behaviorist recommended playing with their dog and i ask every time literally not one in the dozens and dozens and dozens at this point yeah not a single time you know i don't know if you were on that call i mean it was probably a couple of months ago and and out of nowhere it just somehow it came to my head and and i asked everybody how how many of you guys um it's like the the graduands you know we had just a standard zoom call and i'm like how how many of you have had dogs that are come to training that have been on psychotropic medications every single one had at least one dog then i was like i asked him what what is like the youngest the youngest was six months old like what do you do on a six months old like how how could you like like what are we doing right and what's what's the off ramp and then the next question was any of them that are on meds was there a plan how to reduce it and eventually take them off the meds no no that's disturbing that's really really disturbing and and and it like it of course the you can have the animal behaviorist that has gone through some schooling but you have the typical veterinarian that doesn't even have that kind of education they still prescribe it um should we sell i mean choose gives you prescription for zoloft and whatever you want but even when it's like i i've done it a few times myself because it's i mean i need to know i've gone through like the questionnaire and everything and just because you're answering a question that is guided to answer to be answered in a certain way you are gonna subscribe psychotropic medication to the dog based on what that owner's telling you and And that owner has no idea of basic behavior in a dog. They're convinced that this is what's happening. We know that all the time. I mean, every time, well, okay, not every time, but a lot of times,

like probably most of the time, an owner will come to the dog trainer and say, I need this kind of obedience or I need this to be done. And unless the trainer starts to dip a little bit deeper and it's like, well, why do you need that? And you start to find out what the issues are because the pet owner comes with their own prescription, what they need already. Yeah. And when you go to the vet, of course they give you a medication because you're basically going and you're asking for medication. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And often the things that pet owners actually want, they don't even know are options. Right. Right. It's like, you're telling me I can just walk my dog without having to tell him to heal. Like that goes against everything I've ever heard from a dog trainer in my life. And the same thing too, on the whole, the behavior in the house and the dog's losing his mind. He must be aggressive. He must have an anxiety disorder. When you tell someone, Hey, like, what if you just go play? Like you have that soccer ball. He likes, what if you just carve out 20 or 30 minutes every single day and go play with them and come back inside and just report back to me what happens? How many of those dogs just change? Dogs that people have been told your dog is just a monster, literally just from a tweak. And obviously like many of these dogs, they require more work than that. But just, just baseline dog ownership, simple things. Just they, I don't know if it's deliberately ignored or, or if there's some sort of agenda, but I just, it's like you said, there, there's never an off ramp. Like, how are we going to get the dog off of Prozac? Never. It's just an indefinite life sentence. It's insane. It's a diabolical, absolutely insane. How do you feel about those ones? Like, I'm just going to shoot some kind of cliche sayings at you. The one that comes to mind, just straight out, is the, how some, some trainers come, like they try so hard to convince the owner that the dog is there only for themselves. Right. And if they do anything that remotely looks like they're just using you. Right. And this is the premises of where that's like your baseline where everything starts. Yeah. So we could probably go a long time on this. The thing that pops into my head immediately, if your dog is this hidden enemy that's just machinations and schemes and he wakes up every morning and he's just like, how do I get one over on dad? That is a very good and convenient justification for all of the busy work nonsense that trainers tell people to do.

So it's like, well, hey, what if I just have a week where I don't feel good and I can't do 45 minutes of healing comboed into duration down during dinner comboed into grandma's coming over place, place, place, tap, tap, tap, tap. What if I just like don't want to or can't do that? Well, obviously your dog, who is this supervillain, the second you drop your guard and you stop our structure, he's just going to destroy you. So it's a very convenient excuse to use really suppressive and not necessarily heavy handed every time, but just like, because you can suppress dogs very easily force free. But if your dog is out to get you, then of course I need to have this dog trainer telling me, filling out my day of what to do with my dog. And people are astonished. And they actually, a lot of the times, I don't think believe me when I get people going, Hey, I just, I really would love to come shadow a day or maybe a week with you in a behavioral case. And I'm like, well, I don't offer that, but I'm telling you, you would be bored. Like, well, no, there must be something. I'm like, dude, I hang out with the fucking dogs, man. Right. Right. Like we hang, we hang out. Oh, but like, I see he's on the couch with you. It's like, yeah, I don't, I don't care. Like that's, oh, but like people are like, man, I see that you're like letting the dog go out of the door before you. It's like, yeah, my, my control over the dog is not conditional on him waiting at the door. I don't think he's waiting for me to make a mistake so that he can crush me. Like this paranoid antagonistic view of dogs sort of justifies that entire mindset. It's a deflection. It's like, let's do something. Let's do something. So we can, I, I've had, not, not my own clients, but I, I know of trainers like this to where they would present a very sound plan that I know the plan is sound, but the owner feels like they're not doing what they should be. They're not doing enough. They're not like telling the dog to stay in a place for half an hour. They're not like, as you said, who goes off the door first. Is it how long can he stay in front of his football before I tell them, okay, now you can eat. They like, like somehow it, it becomes. And I don't even know if it's ingraded in people or it's just human nature that there is that need of, okay, I should be, I have a problem and I should be like directly somehow changing it. And they're thinking that they're changing it directly, but they're actually doing things that have no relation to what needs to be done. Yeah. Yeah.

I think, I think there are personality types that just feel like I need to be acting to reaffirm my control. But I do, at least in my experience, the bulk of it is just people having been conditioned by previous trainers. Yeah. That's kind of exactly what I was going like eventually. Yeah. Because I really don't think of a specific example. And that person eventually went back to that trainer that would put the dog in a place and they will try to tease him with toys or another dog barking at the dog and whatever, just anything so they can punish and put him back on place. And they, the trainer and the owner feel accomplished by doing that. Yeah. This morbid circus. It's, I don't know, but it is, it is false. Like anybody with an electric collar can make a dog lay down. That's not, that's not impressive. Like anybody can just smash a dog into laying down. Um, so for, for me, I mean, I mean, and I've, I've seen you firsthand on the, like preparing for sports with, with people. How often do you have to tell people, dude, slow down? Like, like lower, lower your left hand, put the remote in your pocket. Give me the, give me the remote. Like when I told you to go walk over there, I wasn't saying head up heel over there. I'm literally telling you just walk over there with your dog. Like, and some people just compulsively, like they cannot. And I keep relating everything to behavioral cases, but I think that there's a crossover with people that are genuinely traumatized by their dogs being out of control. That they've sort of incorporated the obedience routine into like their panic response. Copping. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the dog does too. And the dog does too. Like you can tell when a dog just out of context, here's the word heel. And you see him start to get weird. You can tell that this has just become part of your ritual to try to avoid disasters. So like, it's just emotional conditioning. But I think it's like that for the people too, where I'm like, I'll tell the client like, Hey, like, let's just sit down for a second. I'm, I'm giving you permission. So we're going to put them on a flexi leash. Don't touch the button until I tell you just, just, I know he's going to the tree. It's okay. Like we'll put out. I've had times where I'll put a backup line on the dog and I'll carry it. And I'll tell, I'll like, I'll tell the client, like, I swear to you, if he explodes, I'll stop him. Like, it's going to be okay. And there are some clients you can make fun of them and it actually kind of, they enjoy it. And there are other clients where you can tell they are legitimately. Freaking out. Yeah.

Traumatized. And the starkest difference is definitely post board and train where the client hasn't seen the dog in like eight weeks, nine weeks or something. And they've seen all of the videos. Like I'm, I'm sending them videos. I'm posting videos. They see the dogs off leash in public. He's getting pet by people, all these things, but they still cannot help themselves. The first time, here's the leash. Go, let's go for a walk. And like someone comes from around the corner and they literally flinch. And they're like, they pop the leash or they're, they're reaching for the remote. And I'm like, Hey, it's okay. Like, I know, I know you have to go through this. Um, and a lot of that is because they've just been taught by YouTube videos or, or trainers that. If you don't have control over this maniacal scheming monster, then he's going to see you bend over to tie your shoe and go kill somebody. And I know that's extreme, but that's sort of like the mindset. That's how comical it looks, at least to me. It's wild. I really, I bet it's so interesting. That's, that's what is in a way interesting in the, in the pet business. Um, and especially when you get to the level that you can choose what you want to take as a dog train, to train, to work with. Like me, sometimes I am like, man, I, I just want an easy dog. Yeah. Simply because an easy dog kind of lets you, lets you recharge and lets you kind of realize that the world is more normal than we think, you know? Right. It kind of keeps you, and it helps you, at least in my situation, it helps me when I take an easy dog. Like right now, we have the funniest, I can't think of her name now. They're going to kill me, but then everybody knows I can't know the names, but it's like a seven mile golden retriever. She just can't help herself. It's a wiggle and a wiggle. It's like, okay, I'm going to sit, stay, but can I at least wiggle? It's like, you can wiggle. Yeah. Yeah. But these kind of dogs, in a way, keep your mind and your target of what your goal is with the difficult dogs, right? Right, right. Yeah. I mean, you explained something, the exact phenomenon that happened to me a couple weeks ago where someone had a golden retriever, young golden retriever, rehomed to them. The owner had died or something, and I looked at the map, and they're like 15 minutes away from me. I'm like, I'm just going to go play with this dog. And it's not something I would normally do, but just like playing ball with a dog in someone's backyard and looking at the dog knowing there's no baggage. Like, you don't have any secrets.

I'm not going to like turn around and look back and you're like on me. Like, I can just, like, these are dogs. Yeah, we just go off guard and we find a way. Yeah. It is like a palate cleanser. And I do think that I would probably get bored of it pretty quickly. But mixing in a session like that where it's like, okay, the worst thing you do is pull on leash. The worst thing that you do is jump at the window. It's like, that's beautiful, dude. And all for good reasons, right? Right. You're just excited. Like, you're just an idiot. Like, I love, like, I was talking recently. I think it was in a video where I said that I'm trying to get these nasty dogs to just baseline dumbass pet dog. Like, I just want you to be funny. Like, I just want you to look forward to things and act on impulse. I don't want you to be afraid to test things in front of me. Like, I want you just to be, like, if you're going to get some things wrong, it's okay. Like, I just, I want to see a nice dog. And then we can start doing things, you know? Wow. Wow. Yeah. What about the, how are you still playing around with the going to the shelter and doing things with them? How was that? Because you did for a while, for sure. Yeah. I kind of want people to hear about your experience and why did you do it and what you get out of and everything. Yeah. So, I guess there are two primary motivators for me with working with shelter dogs. The obvious, just dog-loving person. You just want to, oh, these are the dogs that people have forgotten about. We can go in and do some basics and have fun with the dogs. I know what even just playing, the impact it can have on their quality of life. Just, it's insane. And it's not even adding more time on. It's just changing the things that the volunteers are doing. So, hey, I know you take them for a walk once a day. What if every other day you play tug instead? So, just, like, sort of wanting to give that to the dogs is really, really important to me. And seeing it over and over and over again help make the dogs more adoptable and get them out of there. And while they're there, have them not be miserable. Like, that's just a beautiful thing. Probably more interesting to chew on is the selfish motivation in that dog shelters are such an atrocious, suboptimal dog training environment. That I kind of, I look at some of these weird situations and I'm like, let's start messing around. Like, what? So, this dog's doing this behavior. I can see him for 40 minutes a week. Like, let's just start spinning dials and pushing buttons and just, it's a really fun problem-solving opportunity. And it's just nonstop.

Because the dogs you get there are just, there's a lot of weird ones, you know. Not necessarily dangerous dogs. Like, most of them are really nice dogs. But just, like, weird quirks and weird issues. So, it is a perfect dog training behavioral playground in a lot of ways, you know. Do you ever get kind of stuck? Like, I remember me way back. And that's way, way back when I used to work in that environment. There were days and nights that I'm like, I just need to go back to work. Because I need to get the dog out. That specific dog is just kind of just lingering in my head. And, like, I know that it depends. Like, there is nobody else but me. And that's a tough place to be. Like, did you ever have this? Yeah. I would say, so, there's one particular, I've kind of bounced around a few shelters. There's one particular shelter. That I, right when I got home from testing from TWC, I was like, I need to find a shelter. I want to get activated. I want to go in and do this. So, I've been there ever since helping out. I would say that the last six months or so, I've learned to put a more appropriate distance between the dogs and myself. So, there was a session with a dog named Tanner about a week ago. We were playing, doing some obedience. Things were going really well. And I gave the dog back to the volunteers. And I was like, that was too much. And they were like, what are you talking about? I was like, we just very, very closely almost became best friends. Like, we were, it was about to happen. And I was like, call it a day. Get him out of here. Like, I can't, I can't do that to him. I can't do that to myself. And, but to me, that is part of the problem solving opportunity. Like, can I help this dog without being his person? That is an interesting problem. Because it's kind of like a good teacher that you have the, you know, you like, like anybody that is in, in being a teacher, especially with young kids. You know, you, if you start to get attached to them, it's kind of, it may not end well eventually emotionally for, for both sides. Yeah. Yeah. I, I was, I went through, I think that we all at some level, again, just as people that love dogs, I tortured myself for a while. I got that out of my system where I'm just taking calls. They're like, we have something going on. I'm like, I'll be there at open tomorrow morning. Just, just like offhand. Like, I'll just do it.

And partly because I've, I've sort of started to protect myself more and also the, the more unfortunate reality of the shelter becoming increasingly politically captured where I'm, I'm definitely not, I haven't been like banned or anything, but I, there are people there in the bureaucracy that just don't like the way that I train dogs. It's, it's become sort of easier for me to feel like, Hey, they just, they just don't even want me to be there. So I can draw a better boundary. It's much harder when I'm working with a shelter that's like locked in going all out. I know that the staff and the volunteers are all on board. It's harder for me to, to sort of have that boundary. But in this case, they, like there are people that actually just straight up despise what I do. So it's like, okay. Yeah. Despise is a very good word. I totally can see how, how that can just be frustrating. And especially when you know that a dog's life is at stake. There's no sugar calling there. So, so I can tell you a literal example that happened two days ago. And I think that there's a thought in some balance training circles that, well, the extreme force re-advocates, they only exist on the internet. This is a Reddit phenomenon. This is a Twitter phenomenon. They're not real. Go out there and meet people in real life. We all want the same things. It's like, okay. That is a luxury opinion held by people that have not seen the reality of what happens when their rules are actually instituted with struggling dogs. Let me tell you an example. There's this two-year-old boxer mutt named Scooby, boxer pit bull or something. There's nothing wrong with this dog. I played with him a few times, took him on some walks. I was, he was just kind of sitting at the shelter for no good reason. I was actually preparing to offer a free board and train for this dog. I still may do it because I really liked the dog. So he started to develop kennel anxiety. I was not told about this, by the way. So like this is being kept behind closed doors in team where they want to utilize their force-free resources. So he, he, the dog starting to suffer. He's struggling inside of the kennel and these people don't believe in playing with dogs. So like, they're just not going to play with them. They decide they're going to call a local force-free trader who I've had a few interactions with. And, you know, this is your podcast. I'm not going to fly off the handle. This is a really bad faith person that has never trained a dog to any standard in her life.

Her solution is I'm going to take the dog out of the shelter and he's going to live in my home for a few weeks or whatever, a couple of weeks. And maybe, you know, I, I heard that I'm like, okay, maybe there is some sort of strategy that can be done here. Surely if she's removing the dog, they're going to do some sort of training or something. So it turns out that this trainer just took the dog, had him live on her couch for a couple of weeks. There's nothing being done. No game plan. He returns him to the shelter. The dog, upon entering the shelter and realizing that he's going back to prison, lost his mind and nipped an animal control officer. So this could cost him his life. He has a bite on his record. He's on a 10 day, two week hold or whatever. And he's this, this moment that was completely manufactured by force free advocates could very well just kill this dog. And they would rather have that happen. Then me take a dog on a walk through a town on a prong collar. And they will tell you that much that they would rather have this outcome. And they will clock back into work the next day. I know. I know exactly. That's just heartbreaking. Just, and especially when, especially when these are not, this, this, we're not just having conversation. This is literally a real story that just happened two days ago. And that's not the only one that has happened anywhere. Yes. Right. But, but their position is, sorry, their position is, it's better for the dog to be internized than being tortured. Like when you put it this way, okay, being tortured or being euthanized, which one do you choose? Okay. Euthanize me any day. Right. But that's not how it goes. That's just not, that's just such a wrong way to, to look at it. But we, but, but especially shelters are stuck in this. And because of public relations and because of donation and because of, well, there's quite a few different factors. Breaking that, that particular notion of, well, torture or euthanasia, which one? That, that's not the conversation we need to have. Oh. And there is no, like, I mean, I, at least for right now, I don't know. As you said, there are shelters and I'm grateful that there are still places. Especially, I don't know how much shelters around the country are still kind of open-minded and are willing to help dogs and are willing to try. Especially if it's a, really, it's your last resort. Right. Why not? I mean, people are dying from cancer and they, they will do anything at this point. Why, why not? You know? Right. But what, like, rescue groups are way better, I think. Certain rescue groups.

I mean, that, that's a lot of crazy stuff going on there as well. There is a lot of dynamics and there is a lot of, actually, a lot of animosity and some, some rescue groups, I know of rescue groups where they, they're just keeping dogs just so they can get money and, and have, have a good car and whatever, whatever. Just, they're, they're in, in it for a very wrong reason. And, but it's so obvious. I mean, it blinds you. But they're still allowed to go on. And, and let's look at it on the good side. What are, what is the good takeaways when you go to a shelter? What would you say? Why would some dog trainer go to a shelter and, and play around with those dogs? Yeah. I, I get asked questions pretty frequently too, where people are like, hey, I'm looking to develop dog training. As a side business or maybe just a hobby, or I'm looking to totally move into training dogs full time. What is like the step one, first thing that you're doing if you're in my shoes? To me, it's an easy answer. You need reps. You need repetitions. And the easiest thing to deal with when you don't really know what you're doing is a dog that has motivation and wants to do things with you. So dogs in shelters are sitting there waiting for someone to see them. And as soon as they have a taste of that, like, wait, like, you're not just mindlessly walking me either. You're like, you're here with me. They are just on board. So you've got this, this almost perfect situation where you've got dog after dog after dog that again, like, at least in the United States, they're mostly pit bull mutts. They just want to chase stuff and bite stuff and have a good time. So if you're looking for a playground to polish up basic obedience training, dude, like, go buy some tug toys, a ball on rope, go to a shelter and just go down the line. 20, 30 minutes each dog. And don't, I wouldn't recommend someone new taking on an actual, like, behavioral case or anything. But the vast majority of these dogs, they don't, they don't need a lot. Like, just go have fun with them and practice. And you will see little quirks and differences in their personality and all of that. And you'll, you'll get enough of that where it's not so extreme. You're going to be in danger, but you'll get enough that you'll get a lot of experience with a wide variety of dogs. And they're just, they spend most of their time in a cell. They're not going to turn you down. Right. There is that instant gratification. You feel like you're, every, every five minutes that you're spending there, they're not wasted. Right. Yeah.

And, and on the, on the business end too, if you, especially if you're training with play, the people there and the other volunteers are going to see that the dogs just, they're happy. Like this guy, when he takes the dogs out and brings them back, the dogs are happy. This is like referrals forever. If you can get a shelter that will just refer clients, you know, there, there are a lot of scenarios where trainers can get their name and number, their business on a piece of paper that goes with the go home information. From the shelter when someone adopts a dog. And if you prove to them that, Hey, like I, I am making these dogs happier, better. They're learning things. Most shelters are happy to do that. So it's, it's a great, there's just so much to be gained if you're a dog trainer, especially if you're new. Yeah. And you can, you can, even when, uh, like one of your dogs that you spend time with gets adopted, you can follow up. Eventually you can get some lessons and, and you put your foot at the door as a, as a, as an actually dog trainer, a real dog trainer without a demo dog. Right. And you could be taking footage of this and people can go to your website. They can go to your social media and see, like, he's taking every type of dog. Like he's got all of these, you know, misfit mixed breed dogs and they all look really good. And it's just, I, I feel like it's a gold mine. If you're trying to start a business, trying to get better, trying to get more clients, the shelters are just, again, as long as they're not ideologically. Just totally off the wall. They're going to be glad to have you too. If you do a good job. So it's a total gold mine for sure. And even if there is some clashes and conflicts with methods and approaches, like you can, you can go along with what is acceptable. And then little by little say, well, you know what? I think I can help that dog and let them decide if they want to help. Because as you know, in the shelter, quite often the volunteers and the staff, they start to get attached to a certain dog and they really feel heartbroken that the clock is ticking. And sometimes they break down and say, you know what? Go ahead. And those are really kind of breakthrough moments when, when this happens, if you can deliver. Right. It is, um, in those scenarios, it is funny. Again, we all have our biases and our experiences and all that, but it always is funny for me. Hearing people kind of refer to a method I would do as this like last ditch effort extreme. And I'm like, I'll play along and be like, yeah, man, I can't believe it's, uh, it's come to this. And then it works.

And then they're like, wait, hold on. There's something. It's like a bomb goes off. Yeah. You, you can absolutely. Through the dogs, get people on your side. And I, I have no problem acknowledging that I can be hard to work with in some of those scenarios. Like, like, Hey, I know, I like to think I know what I'm doing. I'm here to help for free. You just can't. If you start putting conditions on this, I'm just going to leave. But if you're new, it can be kind of interesting to try to adapt again, like the problem solving element. Like they're telling me I can't do what I normally do. What else could I try? Just another opportunity, you know? You can, you can master certain skills. You can see the limitations of certain approaches. There, there is still a lot to take away. Like, yeah. You, you don't, you really don't have to be like me. I just can't help myself. Like, I'll, I'll give an example. So with the, the political tide kind of going the wrong way at this, this one shelter, there's a couple of volunteers that I meet up with that are just really dedicated. Really cool in their own right, just by working with me, they could probably just train dogs themselves. But they were bringing dogs to me and the first one's wearing a bandana. And I'm like, oh, I wonder why they're doing that. Second one's wearing a bandana. I'm like, I look underneath the prong colors. I'm like, guys, I can't do this. I feel like, I know we're trying to not get in trouble, but in good conscience, I cannot treat negative reinforcement. Like I'm trying to smuggle a bomb through an airport or something. Like I'm not, I can't play by these rules. I just can't. And they were like, all right. And it ended up not being an issue, but it, it surprised me how much I was bothered by that. Like, I just, I can't knowingly contribute to that atmosphere, you know, of trainers, like trainers taking videos where they've got their hands in their pockets, where the e-collar remote is hidden. I just can't, I'm not playing that game. I'm not, if we're going to stand by our methods for the welfare of the dogs, I am not going to look like I'm concealing a weapon or something. That is a horrible, horrible message. In my opinion. I always wonder how, because, you know, like, no matter what your ideology is, when, when it's something that it's like, it's your dog or it's, it's like really, you've invested. And there is, like, feelings between you and the dog and being volunteer, being a trainer. And you're a force free trainer. How often do you think they would do something behind doors to get it done and save the dog? But keep the facade. Yeah.

And believe that, okay, I can do it. I know it's working, but most of you, you will do shitty job and you're going to, so I will keep the facade. What do you think? How often that happens? That's always been kind of interesting to me, but it's not easy to, of course, how, how do you know? Right? Yeah, it's hard, it's hard to quantify that. It's like when pollsters talk about accounting for hidden voters. It's like, dude, how do you even begin doing that on either side? Like, they're hiding. It's literally in the name. So, I, I think if I, it's just, it's alluring, depending on who you're surrounded by, what, what the state of training is in your area. It's alluring to be able to say, I'm an animal advocate trainer and use that costume and put that on your website. But ultimately the dogs do not lie. They do not lie. Like, you just ultimately have to look at the result. So, the, it is infuriating at some level to think that there are people that are grandstanding the opposite of what they're doing. Like, I, I totally, I totally, it doesn't upset me. But what's worse to me is, and I, I like to think this is rare, when you show physical, tangible, objective, observable reality and evidence, and still you are met with disinterest and a lack of care. So, that is something that I've encountered on the force-free and the balance side, by the way. So, like, we, we beat up a lot on force-free advocates. And I think for good reason. I don't hide that. But I can think of another scenario. This was a huge eye-opener to me about the state of, like, how dog training is spoken of and especially online. But there was a dog at the shelter, it was one of those scenarios you were referencing before, where, like, the dog was in such a rough spot, even the more force-free people were like, just call Dylan. Like, this is the setup. Dog's in the shelter, and this is unfortunately common, and it's brutal to witness. Dog finally snaps, and he spends all day spinning in circles in his kennel. Dog, they have to give him, they have to towel him down at the end of every day because he's covered in saliva. And inevitably what happens is the dog is burning so many calories, weight starts falling off of him. So the dog, this dog is just physically evaporating in front of everyone. And they tried their thing. We'll put a frozen Kong with peanut butter in there. We'll give him an extra walk at the end of the day. We'll move him to a bigger room and just all this, you know, whatever. Maybe some of that will work with some dogs. But it's not working. The enrichment approach. Yes, yes. Maybe with some dogs, that will catch.

It's not working here. So they finally, after allowing the dog to suffer a sufficient duration, apparently, they call me in. And I'm like, I'll be there in the morning. And I'm bringing an electric collar. If anyone has a problem, I'm never coming back here again. Get out of my way. Because they sent me a video of the dog. I'm like, I'm not looking at this. Like, I don't understand how you can be in this building knowing that dog is down the hallway doing this and not be going all out. What is wrong with you? But that's a different conversation. So I go in. First thing we do is put the dog on a leash. I'm going to take him outside and see if we can interact with him. Like, just kind of baseline, get an understanding. Like, who are you? Like, what do you like to do? Will you play? Blah, blah, blah. The dog, I practically had to carry him back to the kennel because he couldn't walk. Exhausted. Like, truly, he's on a treadmill. Just constantly. The dog's destroyed. Like, all right. I put the electric collar on him. And I stand at the end of the hallway. I told everyone. At this point, there's a little bit of a crowd. People are, like, crying, dude. Like, it's brutal. I'm like, hey, this is what I'm going to do. He touches the wall. Tap, tap, tap. He gets off. I stop. And this is simple. This is elementary. This requires no effort. Like, a fucking baboon could do this. Right? And would you know it? It works. I think we did three rounds of this, maybe. And I had someone text me that night when they went to do night rounds. And I was like, what was he like when you went to his kennel? He was sitting there with his tail wagging, waiting for me to bring dinner or whatever. That dog puts weight back on. And three weeks later, it gets adopted. And he's home. And everything's fine. So, I made mention. This is the point of this. I made mention of what I had done with this dog online. And I got fucking crucified. Crucified. From both ends, by the way. So, this is kind of, like, getting into the balance side. Big names. Big names. So, this is, like, just around the time where I started my social media. So, like, I'm small fry. You know, hey, I'm posting videos. Guys. And I'm just like, someone said you should never. There's never a reason to put a shock collar on a dog in a shelter. And I basically just told a short version of this story in the comments. I've got people screenshotting it. My comment. Making videos. Like, super cringe. Like, dramatic piano music in the background. I do what I do to stop people like this. Tagging me and stuff. And people that are industry veterans that are like, whatever. How could you ever do that?

And not a single person asked, where's the dog now? Because what I would have told them is, he's back home with mom on the couch. Just no one. Like, I don't want to say no one cares. That's a drastic overreaction. But there is, I guess what I was getting at the, to sum it up. There is a small contingent of people that genuinely, even when proven wrong, do not care. And they will war against reality until the end of time. And they can't, these aren't people that we should be looking to build bridges with, in my opinion. Like, I think ultimately, we just show the dogs until their voice just doesn't matter anymore. And that's, that's a huge, that's a huge motivator for me. Recording and posting as much as I do. It's like, the dogs will tell you. So, yeah, that, that was, that was a huge eye opener for me. Because I expect it from the force-free side. But like, seeing people like, oh, selling online e-collar training courses, saying that the electric collar should never be used in this manner. And what a blasphemous application of such a beautiful tool. And blah, blah, blah. It's like, dude, you guys are crazy, man. Nuts. Yeah, that's a whole, man. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe we go into this a little bit, but before we get even there. How much the shelter environment can change. And everybody agrees that it's madness there. Like, keeping the dogs from not going off. Just because. Imagine the change in the environment in that shelter. Right. Yeah, like, fence fighting, fence fighting. Just stopping the fence fighting. Radically changes. How the dogs even present to people. Like, their entire. Like, hey, you don't get to treat this like fight club. Where you just lose your shit. And the impact on their overall state of mind. What they're thinking and anticipating coming out of the kennel. These are things that a lot of people working at shelters just don't even. It doesn't cross their mind. So, you've got, you've got a dog that has been allowed to fence fight at this one pen in the back. For six months. Just going nuts. Running up and down. He's at the point where sometimes he'll run up and down losing his shit without even a dog being there. Oh, yeah. This is the same. Exactly right. This is the same pen where you have people meet in. Like, adopters. Like, are you out of your mind? Like, how. Like, how is that? I, I feel like you don't need to be a dog trainer to see how there may be. A problem with that. But going off of what you said about the force free and the balance trainers. What we're just talking about.

I bet you the picture that a lot of them will visualize is a dog shut down, sitting in the back in the corner, shaking and being universally suppressed. Yeah. And that's not what that will do. Right. Right. Right. And like, I guess the sort of steel man, that position of skepticism. There are plenty. I know you see these guys, too. There are plenty of trainers that I'll see go into a shelter and take an excited, exuberant dog out of the kennel. And when he comes back, the dog is just like, please put me back in the kennel. I don't want to be outside right now. And people see the prong collar. And it's like, not a hard connection for a person that's just not into dog training to make. And it sort of speaks to the phenomenon of people thinking that we're all on the same side because sometimes we use the same tools. Like, no, man, like you're making happy dogs look suicidal. That's not I don't care what tool you're using. So it becomes hard to to combat that. But I do ultimately think just showing the dogs will turn most rational people on to at least having their mind opened. Yeah, I mean, it will be incredible to be able to walk into a shelter environment as a somebody that wants to look at the dogs and take one home when they're not going out of their minds behind those glass doors that you cannot hear. But you can see the rage. Right. How do you take a dog out? Right. It's a true cacophony. Like, it's chaos. The sound is insane. You can feel the energy. And there are some shelters, like what I'm thinking of off the top of my head. Most of the volunteers are old ladies. They're just like, they're like 65 year old old ladies that weigh like 115 pounds. And they're walking through this row of just. I mean, I know there's nothing wrong with most of these dogs, but they they appear savage and unhinged and their eyes are bloodshot and their faces are peeled back and like it. You're just like, yeah. Hey, by the way, you have to put a leash on this dog, but I'm taking the prong collar away. It's a two what you have to pick. Like, what are we doing? It's a total. It's insane. I don't know. It will be interesting if, I mean, like, I really think the best way is for trainers that are capable to enter that environment and do some good stuff. And start somewhere and adapt to what that environment calls for. Don't just try to go in and overthrow everything they do. But start to help. And then a moment will come. I promise you a moment will come where there will be a dog. And it's going to be. What do we do? And they can give you a green light. And then we can start making some changes in this environment.

Because everything that goes around with, you know, focusing on enrichment and focusing on, well, we're going to somehow, when people walk around, we're going to drop treats through a pipe in the backside. So they go. I mean, it's ridiculous stuff. But what is also really crazy is when you go to a vet as a pet owner and the veterinarian starts to lecture you why you shouldn't have a prone collar because the AVSAB has a training position statement. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can top that. I mean, I'm sure you've seen this too, though. Well, I've had board and train clients in the past tell me, we can't talk about this. Like, what are you talking about? Well, I adopted a dog from a shelter and I signed a contract that if the dog was seen with an aversive tool on, they would take him back. It's a real thing. I don't deal with those scenarios anymore because, again, I'm not playing this game. But that is a clear statement that I would rather this dog be in a concrete cell than running off leash because he wears an electric collar sometimes. That's just a straight up declaration. That's how far the ideology goes. I mean, there's just no boundaries of... Really, the ideology takes over the life of a dog. It really does. Unfortunately, just as we talked about dog trainers, a lot of them just don't know better. They are fed this and they hear it from their authority figures. And it goes down all the way to the pet owner and they get shamed. And it's like, well, why would you have a prone collar? This is why you have the problem to begin with. Yeah. Yeah. And I give people credit because every once in a while I'll get a message that's like, hey. It's something to the effect of I was kind of a hate viewer of your stuff. Like I saw someone shared one of your videos and I was ready to just like blow up on you. But you have something going on because these dogs... Like this can't be a fluke. The dogs are happy. Like they're just happy. Maybe I'm not going to do what you're doing. Maybe I don't agree with it. But at minimum, I'm not going to just try to delete it from the surface of the earth because something is going on where the dogs are improving. There's also kind of the maniac worse than parody take, which is that I've had people say that dogs can pretend to be happy with me because they're afraid of the e-collar remote. So that's just an unfalsifiable claim that I like. There's no saving that argument at that point. Like I just can't go beyond that.

But I think that even as trainers, like if I see a trainer deal with a severe car reactivity issue just using differential reinforcement, let's say that they did it, they proved it, and it worked. I would not be thinking, I need to get back into my shell and quadruple down on my opinions and blow this guy up. I would be messaging him like, hey, dude, do you have time for a phone call? Like I know you don't know me, but you have like 15 minutes to tell me what happened. How did you do it? Like I have to know how you did it. And this is a genuine interest. This is not a joke. Pure curiosity. Like is there something I'm missing? Because I'm constantly looking to challenge myself. And I wish on all sides there was more willingness there. And that's, I don't want to crack open the can of worms on the stim conditioning thing. But like, I get people that see some of my training. They're like, see, this is what happens when the dog is properly conditioned to the electric collar. You see how he's running free and he's so compliant. And I have to be like, hey, he's been e-collar tapped like four times in six weeks. There was no conditioning done to the electric collar. Some people fly off the handle. Most of them go, oh, that's weird. And they have to think about the possibilities. Like maybe there is something going on that I just didn't have right. I know that's exactly what I went through. Doing e-collar conditioning for three years, basically. And having to be like, am I missing something? Like why? Ultimately, the question of why are you doing what you're doing? If you can't give a coherent response, you have to think about what's going on. And in the same way, it's like, why do the dogs look good? I need an answer. I can't just get angry about it. That's just the way that I feel like dog training should be. What about the men? How do you feel about regulations? Disaster. Of the industry? Disaster. Disaster. This might be just the American bias. Just kind of inherently being skeptical of that. It's, we can't agree on anything. If we were to regulate electric collars, we'll use that as an example, electric collars. And say that, well, you have to take a course that shows you the right way. You'd probably get plenty of people that are like that. Dude, that sounds great. I can just tell you there's a very good chance the way that I use the electric collar would be banned. Like, just immediately. And I would, again, just my stance, I would argue the things that were legislated would likely just be totally false. Completely false.

And you would get the same thing that you get with, like, the politicization of government agencies. It's just like, as the pendulum swings back and forth, you're just going to get more and more radical either way. And I think it's inevitable that it would just become impossible to get an electric collar. Like, I think that's the natural conclusion. But I think that you can even just stop the hypothesizing at just the fact that we can't agree. So trying to legislate a method around a controversial tool would just, I think it would be a disaster. Yeah, I 100% agree with that. Like, I really do. So I think what we need to focus on is what do we do with the people that abuse dogs? Right. And how do we decide where is that line in the sand? And who decides it? Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, like, going back to the dog with the penal anxiety, what I did with the electric collar, that was very controversial to some people. Like, there are plenty of people that would call that abusive. So it's hard. I think it, I don't mean to sound defeated, but I think it's kind of an impossible question. And I think that in many cases, it's good to rely on just your base instinct. And I do try when I'm watching training footage of a dog that looks like he's in rough shape. And I don't, I try not to just default to this person's beating this dog. This person's unhinged. This person's crazy. I really try to look like, what are you trying to do? And if I do want to know, I'm going to ask you. That's another thing, too. I'm not going to share your video and put a bunch of motivations that I just don't know on this. There are some cases that are just clear cut. Like, I think that. But even in the clear cut cases, it's interesting what the human mind goes through to make those decisions, you know? Right, right. It's like that video that we were talking about before about the lady with the German Shepherd with the electric collar, where you just look and you're like, this is a hack job. This is bad. You know, like, I'm scraping my mind for a justification for this. I can't find it. If she were here, I'd ask her what you were trying to do. But I think there are clear examples like that. And then there are other examples, other situations where. Yeah, I mean, you've got a clip of a dog looking bad. It's like, what if in that moment I wanted him to feel bad? Exactly. True. True. So you're not, you need context. So you get that one too. Again, like the dog body language content farming. It'd be very easy to take a very good dog trainer's video and just make it look atrocious. So bad.

You could make me look like dog daddy if you took enough of my videos and condensed them down and messed with them. And tried to sleep it. Yes, of course. Of course. So it's. It ultimately does boil down to, at least for me, where does the dog end up? So if you're a trainer doing the same thing over and over and over again, and the dog is in a visibly bad state and you are not getting anywhere. At some point, there has to be a recognition in yourself that, hey, this just isn't, this isn't working. Like, I need to do something different. Because if you, if you go beyond that point, now we're getting into territory where it's like, it's hard to, it's hard to defend. I don't know why it just came to mind. I mean, there's a bunch of videos that came to mind, but I'm sure you've seen the one where the guy was, he had the dog in a crate and he was flipping the crate and he was putting water and taking him out and putting him back in and doing all this. At this point, I can say, okay, I don't care what's the outcome and how the dog is. All that is nonsense. Right. That there's, that, that, that has nothing to do with whatever you're trying to accomplish. But still, I'm very curious. What are you really thinking you're doing? Like what, what is going on in your head? That, that is, that is a game. Just so, like, like, just abusive and you're just torturing the dog on purpose or are you genuinely thinking that you're on the right path and you're accomplishing something in the long run? Like, where are you going with this, you know? Right. Right. And I, I think just as being living things ourselves, if you have a visceral reaction to something someone is doing with a dog, I think that it's just very hard to be charitable. So like that video in question is just insane, like insane. It's just like, like where, like, what are you doing? And the intentions do matter. And I'm going to sound like a forcery advocate. The intentions do matter to a point. But then at some point, the dog is just so miserable. I don't care if you think you're doing the right thing. I think it's, it's less of an indictment on you as a human being, but I still feel like the dog, like this is, this has to stop and you have to find a better way. And. Yeah. I couldn't be, I couldn't be staying with my phone filming this. I just couldn't do that. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Like I've never seen anything like that in person in my entire life. Like I've like, that's, that's just outrageous. That's just completely outrageous. But then at the same time, you could have a dog that is in maybe an equal level of suffering,

but it started with a trainer, just like doing their best and thinking that the only dial they have to turn is physical power. And again, it becomes an arms race between how tolerant the dog can become and how hard the trainer can pop the leash. And they end up in a place that is just pure warfare. And even though, again, the damage being done to the dog may be equivalent, this is a totally different moral issue in some ways. Like you were trying when you started at least. And now you're just, there's kind of that habituation loop where the trainer gets more frustrated, it goes harder, gets more desperate, goes harder. The dog habituates to it. And then it's just ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I don't necessarily, I think that's terrible. I think that's wrong. I think that if a trainer is repeatedly, again, doing the same things with the same dogs and getting nowhere, I think that this is very bad. But that one dude was basically waterboarding. Yeah, waterboarding is exactly what he was doing. That looked like interrogation tactics on just some pet German Shepherd or whatever it was. That's just like, what is totally a different level in my opinion. And that's the thing, is it your lack of knowledge, education, or is it you just enjoying to do that to another living thing? You know, I'm not a doctor. I'm not a psychologist. But there are times where if something's not going well with a dog, I want to beat something up, but it's myself. Like, I want to take it out on myself. Like, I really will be super, super hard on myself, like, brutally sometimes. And I think that it has, like, I'm not trying to play victim. I think it has made me get better. But if you're not that personality type to be really hard on yourself, and you have that same energy, maybe it does just need to go somewhere. And it's just there's a dog in front of you, and he can't defend himself. It is. I mean, I think that also it could go back to the same route as the dogs are assholes plotting against you thought, where the seed is planted at the core that this is adversarial. So if something's going wrong in training, am I really wrong? Or are you just trying to manipulate this? Are you trying to ruin this? Are you trying to bring this down? Are you trying to make me look bad? Like, you could see how someone could just fall down that hole, and it's super toxic. But this is where the, like, the regulation, whatever we're thinking of regulations and we're trying to push, it's not going to resolve this. No, no.

I think that truly, if you believe in punishment as a deterrent, which I do to some extent, I think there just needs to be serious penalties for the same behavior. But you're never going to, unless you outlaw owning dogs, like, it's just never going to stop, truly. It's just, the people that are going to listen to us are already usually good people. Like, you're not, you're not going to break through to a guy that's just unhinged and sadistic. So, yeah. You know, I was, like, a while back, maybe going back four, five years ago, there was a push in Florida to ban electric colors. And thank God to social media and everything, and we kind of got together, and of course we went to hearings, and, you know, we thought about it. And what we came down to was, let's have, in our, like, if you have a pet training business, in your contract with the client, if you're going to use electric or you're going to use prone collar, you are very forward, and they sign that you are okay with that. And then there is the training plan, which is not in any great detail, but there is some training plan. And then there is the final, you know, the dog goes home, and there is a closing paper. And we submitted this to the animal care and control. And we did this for, like, maybe, I don't know. I mean, I know I did it at least four years and a half. And eventually, it just kind of faded away. Why? Because it didn't matter. Because there was no one case of a pet owner to come forward and say, you fucked up my dog and you did something behind doors that was wrong. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that that cannot happen. It just, where I'm going with this is extremely, like, not difficult. I think it's impossible to have a regulation to go after abuse. Like, I think we are able to go after abuse on case by case. It's just that the, you cannot, like, if you're that person, you cannot just change the name of your business and stay in business. That's not cool. Or pay $500 and go on training dogs. There is something that has to be done, but I am totally in agreement with you. Regulation is not going to do it. If anything, just like in Europe. I mean, look at the whole of Europe. It's just such a prime example. And they always try, especially the force free, always are like, well, most of the countries in Europe, nobody is banned and whatever. No, it's banned and it's done. And if you don't believe it, too bad, but that's how it is. And the reason it continues, it's because the solution

and the alternative that you're providing doesn't compare to the success. Like, it fails. There is times that it fails. And you have to accept that. You cannot bullshit people that the force free is this superior and that there is a consensus and that there is, you know, all this bullshit. Frustrating. I just got frustrated. Oh, yeah. I mean, it is. It's maddening because if you are just looking at the dogs, this is obviously a gaslighting attempt on this mass scale. So you're saying, like, in this case with Florida, they just couldn't find enough people saying, hey, my dog has been destroyed by an electric collar. Right. Like, if you're having trouble finding these people with how many electric collars are probably in the state, this is some form of manipulation or reality distortion is going on. This can't, it can't be real. And I think that there's even worse effects, too, because the connection between politics and culture, if you look at what could be the cultural impact as well of electric collars being banned, it's like, I get people messaging me from other countries, especially, again, like Europe and stuff. They're like, I would be horrified to just, like, say no to my dog loudly in public. Like, truly, I'd be petrified someone would be causing a scene about this. And I just can't, I can't relate to that. Because we just don't, again, like the whole, I guess, resistance to regulation, but I, it would be brutal to know that, hey, here's a moment where I know I can make this dog's life better, but there are political forces that are making me second guess it. That would just be untenable to me. Like, I don't know if I could train dogs under those conditions. And it's bad. It's terrible. Strange, strange. But I'm, I'm, I think in the last year, I've become very optimistic that we, we are capable, knowledgeable, educated to stand our ground and, and not allow this nonsense to happen here. Like, I'm, I'm absolutely comfortable with that. The only thing that I really feel bad about is that we cannot come and talk to each other and find some, some acceptance and see what we can do about the individual cases of, of, you know, bad, bad situations. Because that's way better. I mean, that's a very good reason to, to focus on and, and, you know, but not that I have any solution to that either. It's, it's just, it's so complicated. And everybody will say, well, education, well, who do you get educated from? Do you come to my school? Do you go to Michael Ellis? Or do you go to Karen Pryor or Victoria Stilwell? There is like options. You have options. And this is brilliant. You should have options. And then,

if you're getting results, amazing. You don't need nothing else. And if you're not getting results, no matter where you are, you can search because for sure you can find a place that you can, you can get results. Or, or maybe not everything's going to be solved in your doctoring career, but you will feel comfortable of what you can do and what you shouldn't do and, and continue to grow. I don't know. It's a very strange business we are in. A lot of times, like, well, a doctor has to have a license and they go through eight years of, it's like, how, how we can compare this? It's like, and then somebody will say, well, the dog training is an art and there is an art form of it, but it's not so much the art, it's the options that we have. And the analogies with art work, I guess, it's just because you have the options. You can, you can paint in, like, Picasso style or you can paint in whatever, you know, like you have choices and, and there can be beautiful paintings. paintings. And ultimately, it goes back to what you were saying. It's the follow-up of where we are today. What, what is the dog's life look a year or two years or 10 years after the problem period that we've had to go through? That's enough. Right. That's a huge thing that motivates me. It's looking at conventional wisdom. What is supposedly not possible? Can I do it? And if I can do it, I feel obligated to show it. And, you know, when it, when it comes to behavioral rehab, obviously there's, there's different definitions of what is success for the individual dog and the lifestyle and how far gone is the dog really? Can you make it a 100% recovery? Does this dog need to be under some form of management forever? I don't think you need to have perfect answers for every single dog. I just think that if you take a dog that supposedly by the vast majority of definitions would be irredeemable and you can show that dog by using aversive methods included, you can show that dog six months later running off leash at a beach, not holding himself back, not looking back at the owner wincing, waiting for the shock, truly just exuberant and light, then we need to show it because to the average person who are, the fate of us being able to do what we do relies on the politics of people. If you're telling people repeatedly, this is not real, this is not possible, this is going to destroy dogs, but they can in two clicks pull up the exact opposite. Like, this is just not even a debate anymore, at least with most people that aren't totally just trapped in cognitive dissonance. so that's a big deal to me. That's an optimistic deal. Yeah. As you said, like, the, the,

I mean, look at the politics in, in, in politics, you know, like, there is no, nobody will ever, ever say we, we are not as, you know, we made some wrong decisions or we are on the wrong path or whatever. There is, the fight goes on and the fight will always go on. But, but I think that at the heart of this debate, there is a majority of people that do love dogs. So, in politics, the, the priorities between the multiple factions are typically just totally just off, like, completely in different directions. ultimately, I, I do think, again, excluding delusional people on both sides, religious zealots on both sides, I do think that at the core, people care about dogs. And, if you can convince enough of them just to look at the evidence, I think that could seriously turn the tide. I actually don't even know if the tide needs to be turned. I think it may be going in the right direction, but it's all anecdotal. I don't have data based on that, but I, I, I look forward to hopefully a future where people are just showing dogs. Just show the dogs. Like, like, stop, stop going to other people's pages and getting in arguments. If you want to do that, that's fine, but show the dogs. And I don't want to hear the, oh, well, it takes time to record things. Like, I get it, but if you're, if you have the time to go rip people apart in the comments section, you can definitely buy a $13 tripod from Best Buy and record some training sessions and show it. It's like, okay, if I'm going to make a very strong claim about aversives, I'm going to have just months and months and years of dogs to back it up. It's all we have in the pet world. We don't have trophies. so I, I think that by thinking about evidence and the dogs and the attitude of the dogs, you can really dispel a lot of falsehoods. Hopefully, again, very optimistic, but I need something to cope with. I would say, Dylan, you're definitely very optimistic because, because like, like when you, I mean, you know, like when you want to look for a certain data with certain outcome, you will find that, right? You'll find it. Yeah, you'll find it. For sure. And that's, that's kind of. But we don't, we don't have to win them all. Right. We do not have to win them all. Ultimately, it is a debate and the people that are undecided, I think, will fall towards the more sane, rational, objective side. There's always going to be lunaticity. Yeah. I guess, you know what, I've kind of lately come to conclusion is, if you're a pet owner and you have this dog that you're in the fence, do you keep it? Do you euthanize it? Do you take it to the shelter? And you say you've tried everything. Really be honest with yourself and say, did you try everything? And then decide what is everything for you ethically and morally. what lines you don't want to cross. And, yeah.

What are the two advantages we have there? What is the thing that they didn't try? They didn't try stopping him. what does stopping him often do? Work. So, you get enough people that were apprehensive seeing it in real time. It's just, again, it's a long fought battle, but one dog at a time, one dog owner at a time. Not even going out trying to fight for a political cause. I'm literally just going out and doing my job. I'm just doing the stuff that I think works and we find out. We find out and I just show it. So, I don't necessarily think it's like a super loud call to action. It's more just like, hey, if you're proud of the work you're doing, show it. If you're invested, I think I think that should be the standard. Social media, man, it's a tough place to, I mean, like, and especially with you, like, there's so many trainers right now that are focusing on the social media. Yeah. That I highly question, how does dog even get trained? Like, how, what, where does like, when, when it's time for these dogs to go home, how are they going home? What, what is the deal? Because, so, as far as I can tell, this is a recent, relatively recent phenomenon. There is an entire industry revolving around training dog trainers on marketing. Like, this is like a huge online grift where people pay to go on these Zoom calls to have marketing people who have never trained a dog before, basically teach people how to selectively edit videos and what hashtags to use. And I think there's a little bit of a debate to be had. It's like, yeah, I like that people make money. That's cool. But you should probably be trying as hard as you can to get better at training dogs. That's like, that's what I think about. Again, bias, personal bias. I'm not a very business minded person. I'm just always trying to get better at training the dogs. I don't fault anyone for trying to make money. But it's like you said, when you watch some of these videos, nothing's happening. Nothing. Like, sometimes less than nothing. Sometimes damage is being done. And if that's what you want to do, I don't like it, but okay. But if attached to that you are spreading mythology, now we have problems. So you have a well-edited video, you speak with confidence, you kind of are able to bedazzle and hypnotize enough pet owners to listen to you. But now you're saying that clicker conditioning is the only way to resolve extreme issues. Ultimately, what's going to happen is people are going to try it, it's going to fail, and then they're going to feel defeated. That's not okay. That's where I start taking issue. I try really, really hard not to comment on other people's things, because I just don't like it. It's pointless. I watch them at nighttime. Sometimes I will have dinner with Natalia, and she's just enjoying me narrating when we're watching some funny videos. It's just pure entertainment. and I

think a lot of people, I hope, I really hope that a lot of people are watching them in that sense, the way I do too. Yeah. A morbid curiosity. But we still make the clicks, we still make the algorithms kick in, you know. But it's absolutely insane. like I, again, I mean, I have right now three people here with cameras. There is no way, like I'm up and I have to get the dog and I have to train it. If somebody's here with the camera, okay, but that's not my priority. Like, absolutely, I cannot, but maybe I'm just very old school. I grew up before this and, yeah, it's different. It's, it can be a serious hassle. There are times where I think of there was a TV show on National Geographic called Survivor Man, where this guy named Les Stroud would go out and basically do these mock survival scenarios. He had no camera crew, so he would have to set up scenarios with the camera in the distance, do the thing, and then go all the way back and collect his camera and set up these angles. So, like, there's this added level of nuisance on top of his task. There are times, there are times for sure where I'm like, this is kind of a pain in the ass, especially with aggressive dogs where you can't really afford to just hire a cameraman and be like, hey, let's see what happens while you're near us and I've got this dog. So, trying to find ways to record it myself is a pain, it's, yeah. And then there is that moment where you're like, in the middle, like, you're in a very critical point in what's going on with the training at the moment, and you're like, well, I'm not filming. I cannot possibly think about the problem of I'm not filming it. When I'm at that moment with the dog, it just cannot happen. but I know that the social media trainers would, they would abandon the training at that moment because the priority will be the material. There's no point. Yeah, you lost your chance. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. I think that there is a good back and forth on it, but my caveat is here. I know that it's a nuisance sometimes, but if you are going to be on the internet making sweeping, huge, confident statements about how you have a solution to everything, you've unlocked the mysteries of the universe, you can critique every other trainer you see, you can take the time to record it. Truly, what are the chances that this genius, savant, dog, Jedi, is doing these unbelievable things. It just doesn't feel like recording it. I'm not going to buy that. It really depends. I don't think there's a moral obligation to do it. This is my bias being in the pet world. The pet world is largely gatekept and almost presided by in a judicious way, a judgmental way, over people that just talk shit. They just talk shit. That's literally the extent of what they do, is take other people's videos and then talk shit about them. And again, making sort of like either super wrong claims about something

or vague like, yeah, I guess I've seen way worse dogs than this. it's like, dude, if there's no evidence, then just like, trust me, bro, is not a good enough source here. I care too much about dog training to just be like, yeah, this random person with 40,000 followers on TikTok is just like a genius. Like, there's just no fucking way. Like, I've got you and I've got the dogs. Do you think a lot of people start to kind of catch on to this that the number of followers and likes are not really a statement, a testament, or do you think most people get fooled by that? I think that most people get fooled, unfortunately. And I don't necessarily only mean fooled. I think that people get intimidated. So are their trainers. I've had plenty of people tell me. Like, I am horrified. Like, I love that people put up videos. I'm horrified to do it. I'm petrified. Because I know this one account, maybe they're going to repost me and just destroy my business. They're going to attack me. So it is sort of like a Mexican standoff where everyone's just standing there with guns pointed at each other, waiting for someone to post a clip with a dog with his tail tucked for three seconds. And then it's just destruction. And I will admit, I will admit, at the beginning, I had one video go incredibly viral for no reason. And like, I'm waking up in the morning and I've got 15,000 notifications, like just crazy shit, right? There was a level of negativity, even if it's just 3% of it. If you are just a sane, like emotionally stable human being, even if you're confident, if you get enough bombardment at you, just nastiness, eventually it will chip your wall down at some point. Like at some point. So there was a moment where I was like, dude, should I keep doing this? Like this is crazy. Like I'm looking at my notifications, people are like, I'm contacting your local police department, you know, you're a psychopath, you're beating dogs for money. And it's literally just, I had a slip collar on a dog and I like moved him. And I can see how people would be like, I'm just going to hide what I do. Like I'm just not going to show anything. Like if this is the atmosphere, I just can't, I can't stick my neck out. And I'm glad I went the opposite direction and I just doubled down and I was like, hey, for better or for worse, I'm just going to show the dog. And people are going to have to decide if I was right or wrong. And I don't know what's going to happen. No, you know, like I love your follow-ups. I mean, this is like the most important part, you know? Yeah, and I've thought about, I think it's just a rabbit hole that'll just ultimately piss me off. I've thought about going back to the comment sections on some of these dogs at the beginning where people are like, this dog's dead. You have no chance. Put him down. You're making him worse. And it's like,

I'm getting messages from the client of this dog like running around with a group of kids. You don't want to go back in the comments. You don't. You don't. You don't. I like, I've almost made a policy in my mind. It's like, I'm just not going to check the comments on a video older than one week. I'm just not going back. Like, it's just, it's a wasteland. It doesn't exist. Yeah. The people that comment didn't know. No, absolutely. I've gotten one apology. I've gotten one apology. One person. I had one person message me very graciously. And I don't, I don't like this. I didn't ask for this, but I just like, Hey, I like blew up at you over that first clip. I even still don't like how you train in many ways, but I have to admit in this case, I was off. Like, I'm glad this dog had you. I'm like, Hey, that's, I accept that. That is totally fine. I don't think we all need to agree, but some like baseline level of, of humanity where people are willing to show the work. It would be nice, you know? So we need, we need the guys waterboarding their dogs to get ripped. Yeah, we need to, we need to find some ways of, of better handling this, but, but, man, there's just so many problems. Right. Like, you know, like, I tell you, I get, I mean, I seriously get bombarded sometimes with videos of, like, 10 seconds of, oh, look at this. It's like, no, I'm not even bothering to look at it because what, what, like, like, it's a dead end. But this is not the way to go about anything. Like, as you said, just because you see 10 seconds, you have no idea what else is going on. You, like, they're absolutely, no, not easy. Where do you think that whole thing's going? What's the prediction? On dog training as a whole? Social media and, and, and killing each other, blasting each other, and sometimes for a reason and sometimes just for pure, like, you know, tribal human, like, no, you guys are wrong because you're doing it this way and we are doing it and you don't, you know. I, I will speak to dog training, the social, which is kind of our small, weird little world, but there is a lot of activity there. There's a lot of people, there's a lot of trainers, there's a lot of people consuming that content. I do, and again, maybe I'm being optimistic here, I think that dog training has such a strong reality bias that ultimately, even in the the sieges and the bombardments and people losing their minds and being tribal, I think that people want truth at some core unspoken level, and we are mostly united by dogs looking good and feeling good, and you don't have to be a dog trainer to see a dog at peace, and if we can show that, I think that's where it'll go. I think that if we lean into the spamming and fear, and there's a larger discussion too about what about trainers just showing mistakes, how do we handle telling a trainer, hey, I think you could have gone about this a

different way without nuking them and destroying them because that's hard. That's actually a hard, especially if you don't know the person, that's a hard thing to do. I've had trainers that I know come up to me awkwardly like, hey, I don't know how to start this subject, but I think you could do this differently. I'm like, dude, let me have it. I know you. I trust you. I know you're a good dog trainer. I want to hear this, but if it's just like, I don't know, XX dog wizard 69 XX at whatever Gmail and he's just like, hey, you could do this differently. It's like, I did. I don't I don't care. It's like it's like building the rapport with the dogs. It's like you're going to correct the dog when he just doesn't give a shit what you think. He doesn't care. So how do you how do you do that? I don't I don't know. Maybe a more like a private like a DM like, hey, I think I know a better way. If you're interested, let me know. I've never sent a message that's way different when when you, you know, that that's that's almost like talking in person, you know, that that's different totally different ballpark. You know what is trending? I'm sure you do because you're in the talking about the mistakes, you know, like I think right now trainers not the new kind of trick of social media is to show the role, the mistakes, but even the mistakes are kind of you watch the video and they're like just artificially produced as okay, we are like in the middle of something, but it's like no, like I see what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, there there's some slight of hand and I actually in a weird way can almost appreciate when the slight of hand is done well or in a way that I hadn't seen before where I'm like, oh, yeah, you have to admire when when of course. Yeah, it's like someone finding a way to bend the rules in a game. You're like, that's kind of cool that you did that. I don't like the motivation, but I appreciate it. And like you get a lot of videos that the audio has been tweaked with. So like people trying to show, hey, my dog can read my mind. And there's very clearly a person off camera giving some sort of auditory cue, but they've like muted certain sections and that just totally like that was pretty well edited. Like I like that. But people get bored of the same thing. like so again, like there's so how many reels do you see of like my Belgian shepherd is starting protection work? Like you just see the same thing over and over and over and over again. People want to see their favorite breed doing cool things. I'm tired of watching puppies looting with food healing. Like how much more we can do that? Yeah. Yeah. it's or spin to the left, spin to the right. It's okay. But like or the agility stuff. It's like, okay, dude, your dog already wants to do that. Let's switch.

Let's switch. What like at this point where you are, what keeps you excited and keeps you going? Because in the industry, as we are talking as brutal as it is, you have to have the thick skin. You have to have the knowledge, but there is something else that different people makes them go and enjoy. What is that for you? So quick, quick statement on that, on the state of the industry and everything. I definitely don't want to come off as ungrateful or as like a victim or something. I get to talk to and interact with and work with really, really cool people all the time. Even people that just flat out disagree with me. I love those interactions when they're done in a normal functioning way. And I get to see a lot of really cool dogs and it is, I never thought this was even a job. Like that, that's, it's incredible to me. So I don't want to sound really negative. I think you just, when there are negative things, you do need to talk about them. As far as what, what keeps me going, it's, it is really, really interesting to me. Again, there's like a couple different answers. I guess the one, the one answer on the, the moral element, my dad, like when I was really, really young, he's an outdoorsman hunter. He very clearly in his way taught me the concept of mercy with animals, which is kind of, you know, the vegan take would be, Hey, that's rich. This is the guy that's shooting arrows at deer. But the idea that if there's an animal in suffering and you are capable of doing something about it, do it, like do something whether in that grim world, it involves putting an animal out of his misery, or if it involves getting a, an animal out of a trap or something, right? Like it's just, it's, it's a, an inherently bad thing for living things to be in pain. And if you are capable, you need to act. So that is a very strong motivator for me, especially considering, I mean, you know, better than anybody, the worst dogs benefit so much from the basics. So it's not like I'm like killing myself. It's like, dude, I'm just like, I'm treating these dogs like they're normal. And they change. So it feels like an obligation to me in that way. It's like, I'm just, I'm very, in my opinion, oftentimes low effort doling out mercy to dogs that are in trouble for no good reason at all. But that, that's definitely a motivation for me. I think that in terms of the craft of dog training, I just think that the world of behavioral rehabilitation is so weird and so random. And it is fascinating to run into new scenarios that it's just like, what am I even going to do with this dog, dude? Like, what am I even, where do I start with this thing? So there's a moment, I know it's going to be an interesting program when

the dog gets dropped off to me and the owner leaves and it's just me and the dog in the room and I'm looking at him and I'm like, what do I do? It's like, holy shit. Like this is, this is, it gets me really excited and I'm constantly, again, I mentioned I'm picky about who I work with. It's not just the people. I'm looking for the most bizarre, unhinged, just out there dogs that I can get my hands on. And I'm trying to find a dog that's really going to like, in some ways, put me to my limit. And I've been kind of lucky in that it feels like the dogs that I've taken on have been in a pretty smooth incline in terms of challenge level. So I'm getting them at the right time and I really appreciate that. But I, I go into a state of panic almost when I feel like I'm stagnating. Like, have I been, am I training dogs the same way as I was like a year ago? Like, that's disgusting. I have to do something about that. And it turns out that the dogs, if they are challenging and strange, will force you. And if you're paying attention, they will, they absolutely. They will tell you they, they truly it's, it's not like, oh, well, the healing could have been a little bit better or the recall could have been a little bit sharper. It's like, no, no, no. I have to figure out how to help this dog or we're getting destroyed or this plane is just crashing. So the stakes, the stakes keep me really activated and really just like searching for improvements. That's definitely a huge driving force for me, which is interesting. It's a contrast because before training without conflict, these types of dogs scared me. Not necessarily for my safety, but for the fact that like, I don't even know where to start. Like, I'm just going, I'm going in defeated. And now I go in, I'm basically like walking into a burning building going like, this is great. I can't walk. What can I start? Like, I know, I know what to ask. I know where to start. If that fails, I'm almost like, if my normal tactics fail, I'm almost excited. I'm like, holy shit, I got to do something different. This is weird. Like, this is cool. Yeah. I can see how that, that, that, yeah. I mean, you, you just answered my question brilliantly. Yeah. That, that's like, I wish dog trainers get to that place. You know, there is quite often, especially like, you know, you know that I listen and I follow all the webinars and APDTs and all this and, and quite often there will be an actual presentation on trainer burnout. And, and basically they're not making the money or not feeling successful or, or just kind of really truly burned out of like, with a big question mark, should I go on? What do you tell those people? Because, because there is

that other side that you just described. There is this excitement about doing what you're doing, but there is many dog trainers. And I promise you, there are many dog trainers that are highly questioning if that's something they should be doing. And probably just like with painting, you, you cannot paint, you can do squares by numbers and, and that's, you have to accept that. So this is another really good one. You could go on for a while. There's, there's sort of like an instant surface level answer. A question I would ask, and I would tell the trainer, Hey, like to the best of your ability, be honest with yourself and with me when you answer this. Are you doing busy work? Like what, what does your program look like? Because if I get an answer that while I'm in my kitchen in my pajamas with a kibble bag, luring a dog into heel and going dog after dog, after dog, day after day, after day, if that's what you're doing, yeah, dude, I would quit. I would burn out in a week because I, I went through a phase where I was doing that, where the extent of what I did was just, Hey, I'm getting the reps. Therefore, something good is happening. And then when you realize that you can actually, there's no trade-off in that you can enjoy the dog more and get a better result. That's, that's where it really flipped for me where I pretty much don't take days off. Like I just, I just don't, I'm constantly, I always have a board and train sometimes like in the winter in upstate New York, I'll back off on private lessons. Cause I just don't want to stand out in a park and freeze, but like, I'm still doing private lessons sometimes. And like, it doesn't, I'm still thinking about the dog that I have and I'm looking forward to the next dog, but it's because I'm not staring at a wall of 5,000 down reps, 6,000 heel reps, 10,000 sit engagement reps, click food, click food. Like I'm not, the less mechanical you are, I think the longer you can go without just losing your mind. And I don't want to say that there's anything wrong with being mechanical and being proficient, but if that's, if what you are doing is effectively sitting at a computer with the dog, then yeah, you're going to lose your mind straight up. And doing, doing things, doing things like taking on challenges too. That's just as a last response to that. True. Very true. Like you have to go. Like I have a dog coming. But it has to be calculated. Oh, sure. Sure. You don't want to like crush yourself and set yourself up to lose, but like I've got a dog coming in a couple of weeks and the client just from time to time will send me a video of some behavior going on. And I'm like, dude, I can't wait.

Like by all measures, this dog is a disaster. But I'm like, this is going to be sick. This dog is going to be out of control and it's going to be awesome. I don't like challenging yourself, allowing the dogs to challenge you and pay attention to what you're doing. And it's, it's really hard to get bored of this. In my opinion. Very cool. Man, that was a good, cool conversation. How long did we go? I have no idea. It doesn't, it's eight o'clock. Oh, there you go. Okay. We've been talking. We've been talking. I don't know when I'm going to see you in person again, but looking forward to when, that was a very good conversation. And hopefully, you know, like, like people that are studying or people that are bummed out in the industry, get excited and, and get, you know, a life and, and, you know. It's a, it doesn't have to be that way. And it is fun to try really hard. Like it is just go all out. And a lot of times you have to, you have to listen to, to your heart, you know, like, like, I, I, I don't know. I was talking, I was going to finish the podcast right now, but here I am. And I, I think I mentioned this last podcast and it just keeps replaying in my head and people and dogs have been interacting with each other for thousands of years. We didn't know Skinner. We didn't know shit. And a lot of cool things were happening simply because for whatever reason, humans have that gift when they pay attention to open up and interact with another species and specifically a dog. And there is a way that we come to some agreement and cooperation and it's beautiful. And, and yeah. Anyway, man. It's a, it's hard, it's hard to do that with cookie cutter flow chart methods and approaches. Right. That, that's hard. It's hard to see it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully I see you sometime next year and for now, Merry Christmas to you and the family. And yeah, it was a good one. Thank you, man. This was fun. Thank you for having me on. All right, Dylan. Dylan. Thank you. Thank you.